Capitalism Guarantees Rising Inequality

[Dragonlady]

The problem is that in today's job market, the job you were promoted to no longer exists, or if it does exist, it still pays minimum wage. And minimum wages haven't gone up in years, because all of the people who used to work in manufacturing, are now competing for minimum wage jobs.

The problem is we have 20 million illegals competing for low skill jobs.
Makes it hard for low skilled Americans.
Want to raise their wages, deport their competition.

Do you ever wonder why more hasn't been done to prevent undocumented workers from finding work? If businesses were heavily penalized every time they hired undocumented workers, the practice would cease immediately. A fine of $10,000 per undocumented worker would go a long way towards making them an less attractive option.

If a law were passed requiring employers to see every worker's original SS card and to make a copy of it, and to pay the money only to the person named on the card, undocumented workers would be unable to find jobs.

As it stands, workers provide false SS numbers and there is no backup. Every year the IRS receives millions of dollars for false SS numbers by way of withholding taxes and the IRS keeps the money.

Employers get cheap workers. The government gets money that no refunds will be requested for, from people who will never ask for government services.

By and large, these undocumented workers are taking jobs which pay LESS than minimum wage. Work like harvesting crops. Jobs no American would do for the money being offered.

But they couldn't continue to work at all if business and the government really didn't want them here.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

The problem is that in today's job market, the job you were promoted to no longer exists, or if it does exist, it still pays minimum wage. And minimum wages haven't gone up in years, because all of the people who used to work in manufacturing, are now competing for minimum wage jobs.

The problem is we have 20 million illegals competing for low skill jobs.
Makes it hard for low skilled Americans.
Want to raise their wages, deport their competition.

Do you ever wonder why more hasn't been done to prevent undocumented workers from finding work? If businesses were heavily penalized every time they hired undocumented workers, the practice would cease immediately. A fine of $10,000 per undocumented worker would go a long way towards making them an less attractive option.

If a law were passed requiring employers to see every worker's original SS card and to make a copy of it, and to pay the money only to the person named on the card, undocumented workers would be unable to find jobs.

As it stands, workers provide false SS numbers and there is no backup. Every year the IRS receives millions of dollars for false SS numbers by way of withholding taxes and the IRS keeps the money.

Employers get cheap workers. The government gets money that no refunds will be requested for, from people who will never ask for government services.

By and large, these undocumented workers are taking jobs which pay LESS than minimum wage. Work like harvesting crops. Jobs no American would do for the money being offered.

But they couldn't continue to work at all if business and the government really didn't want them here.

If businesses were heavily penalized every time they hired undocumented workers, the practice would cease immediately. A fine of $10,000 per undocumented worker would go a long way towards making them an less attractive option.

Sounds good.

The government gets money that no refunds will be requested for, from people who will never ask for government services.

Wrong. Illegals, and their kids, consume tens of billions of dollars in government services, ranging from free medical care, free education and the costs of their crimes and incarcerations.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

The problem is that in today's job market, the job you were promoted to no longer exists, or if it does exist, it still pays minimum wage. And minimum wages haven't gone up in years, because all of the people who used to work in manufacturing, are now competing for minimum wage jobs.

The problem is we have 20 million illegals competing for low skill jobs.
Makes it hard for low skilled Americans.
Want to raise their wages, deport their competition.

Do you ever wonder why more hasn't been done to prevent undocumented workers from finding work? If businesses were heavily penalized every time they hired undocumented workers, the practice would cease immediately. A fine of $10,000 per undocumented worker would go a long way towards making them an less attractive option.

If a law were passed requiring employers to see every worker's original SS card and to make a copy of it, and to pay the money only to the person named on the card, undocumented workers would be unable to find jobs.

As it stands, workers provide false SS numbers and there is no backup. Every year the IRS receives millions of dollars for false SS numbers by way of withholding taxes and the IRS keeps the money.

Employers get cheap workers. The government gets money that no refunds will be requested for, from people who will never ask for government services.

By and large, these undocumented workers are taking jobs which pay LESS than minimum wage. Work like harvesting crops. Jobs no American would do for the money being offered.

But they couldn't continue to work at all if business and the government really didn't want them here.

What a genius.

FYI, the current fine for hiring an undocumented worker is already $10,000, and the law already requires employers to maintain a copy of proof of citizenship for all workers. Despite the fact that we already have these laws, which you say would end the problem, we still have the problem.

 

[bayoubill]

Where is Democracy to be found in a world where the three richest individuals have assets that exceed the combined GDP of 47 countries?

A world where the richest 2% of global citizens "own" more than 51% of global assets?

Ready for the best part?

Capitalism ensures an already bad problem will only get worse.

"The Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD) states that income inequality 'first started to rise in the late ‘70s and early ‘80s in America and Britain (and also in Israel)'.

"The ratio between the average incomes of the top 5 per cent to the bottom 5 per cent in the world increased from 78:1 in 1988, to 114:1 in 1993..."

"Stiglitz relays that from 1988 to 2008 people in the world’s top 1 per cent saw their incomes increase by 60 per cent, while those in the bottom 5 per cent had no change in their income.

"In America, home to the 2008 recession, from 2009 to 2012, incomes of the top 1 per cent in America, many of which no doubt had a greedy hand in the causes of the meltdown, increased more than 31 per cent, while the incomes of the 99 per cent grew 0.4 per cent less than half a percentage point."

Spotlight on Worldwide Inequality

There are alternatives that don't require infinite "growth."

you obviously have no fuckin' idea 'bout the way economics works...

rich folks having huge piles of dough doesn't automatically translate to poor folks having nothing...

the economic pie doesn't just sit there stagnant and staying at the same size...

it grows according to the effort put into it by all parties, large and small...

 

[Dragonlady]

The government gets money that no refunds will be requested for, from people who will never ask for government services.

Wrong. Illegals, and their kids, consume tens of billions of dollars in government services, ranging from free medical care, free education and the costs of their crimes and incarcerations.

The figure you quote is grossly exaggerated. The figure deemed most reliable is published in a federal report at $10B and even this figure is considered far too high by some. It includes an estimated cost for small business loans given to illegal immigrants, and is said to over-estimate the cost of welfare, crimes and incarceration because these numbers include all immigrants, legal or otherwise.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

The government gets money that no refunds will be requested for, from people who will never ask for government services.

Wrong. Illegals, and their kids, consume tens of billions of dollars in government services, ranging from free medical care, free education and the costs of their crimes and incarcerations.

The figure you quote is grossly exaggerated. The figure deemed most reliable is published in a federal report at $10B and even this figure is considered far too high by some. It includes an estimated cost for small business loans given to illegal immigrants, and is said to over-estimate the cost of welfare, crimes and incarceration because these numbers include all immigrants, legal or otherwise.

The figure you quote is grossly exaggerated.

Illegals have bankrupted hospitals near the border and their kids crowd our schools.
Chicago spends $13,000 per pupil. How much of that is for illegals?

The figure deemed most reliable is published in a federal report at $10B and even this figure is considered far too high by some.

Why would they tell the truth? They want amnesty. I also found this:

Specifically, in 2005, GAO reported that the percentage of criminal aliens in federal prisons was about 27 percent of the total inmate population from 2001 through 2004.

U.S. GAO - Criminal Alien Statistics: Information on Incarcerations, Arrests, and Costs

And this:

The number of criminal aliens in federal prisons in fiscal year 2010
was about 55,000, and the number of SCAAP criminal alien
incarcerations in state prison systems and local jails was about
296,000 in fiscal year 2009

GAO-11-187, Criminal Alien Statistics: Information on Incarcerations, Arrests, and Costs

 

[MikeK]

[...]

If businesses were heavily penalized every time they hired undocumented workers, the practice would cease immediately. A fine of $10,000 per undocumented worker would go a long way towards making them an less attractive option.

[...]

Solving the illegal immigration problem ranges from difficult to impossible because of the ready availability of fake ID documents. As long as an illegal has fake ID in his/her possession an employer cannot be charged with a violation by visiting INS agents.

The problem of illegal immigration could be quickly and totally eliminated by simply implementing a requirement for every U.S. citizen to be issued a biometric, holographic ID card containing photo, fingerprint coding, and pertinent information which affirms the holder's citizenship. The card should be addressable to a central government database via swiping in an on-line terminal in a manner similar to a credit card verifier. All employers of temporary workers should be required to have and to use a terminal to verify each employee's citizenship.

Once employers learn they cannot avoid prosecution they will no longer hire illegals. And when the illegals cannot find jobs or evade arrest they will go home. But every time some legislator recommends issuance of a citizen ID card the corporatists in government raise a protest denouncing the idea as intrusively un-American.

 

[The Rabbi]

[...]

If businesses were heavily penalized every time they hired undocumented workers, the practice would cease immediately. A fine of $10,000 per undocumented worker would go a long way towards making them an less attractive option.

[...]

Solving the illegal immigration problem ranges from difficult to impossible because of the ready availability of fake ID documents. As long as an illegal has fake ID in his/her possession an employer cannot be charged with a violation by visiting INS agents.

The problem of illegal immigration could be quickly and totally eliminated by simply implementing a requirement for every U.S. citizen to be issued a biometric, holographic ID card containing photo, fingerprint coding, and pertinent information which affirms the holder's citizenship. The card should be addressable to a central government database via swiping in an on-line terminal in a manner similar to a credit card verifier. All employers of temporary workers should be required to have and to use a terminal to verify each employee's citizenship.

Once employers learn they cannot avoid prosecution they will no longer hire illegals. And when the illegals cannot find jobs or evade arrest they will go home. But every time some legislator recommends issuance of a citizen ID card the corporatists in government raise a protest denouncing the idea as intrusively un-American.

Ja, papers, please!
Yes we can solve lots of problems by turning the US into a police state. Not where I want to go though.
It is amazing that so-called conservatives fail so badly on the immigration issue. Conservatism is about free movement of labor and capital. Keep repeating it.

 

[georgephillip]

The Fed will make money on the MBS. A lot of the problems that happened had to do with large changes in value which would require private institutions to liquidate fast which is obviously problematic when everyone is trying to do the same thing.

MBS were rated incorrectly. Investors were running to the markets with bad information and based on multiple levels of market manipulation. A lot of blame to go around.

Do you find the following claim accurate?

"Our financial system—like our participatory democracy—is a mirage. The Federal Reserve purchases $85 billion in U.S. Treasury bonds—much of it worthless subprime mortgages—each month. "

Chris Hedges: The Myth of Human Progress and the Collapse of Complex Societies - Chris Hedges - Truthdig

 

[georgephillip]

"The Federal Reserve purchases $85 billion in U.S. Treasury bonds—much of it worthless subprime mortgages—each month.

Chris is an idiot. The Fed buys US Treasury bonds and guaranteed MBS.
Neither one of which can be considered subprime.
Although, after 3 more years of Obama, that may not be the case.

"It has loaned trillions of dollars at virtually no interest to banks and firms that make money

Banks are currently borrowing from the Fed Discount Window........$6 million.
They are currently lending to the Fed, at 0.25%, about $2.4 trillion.

"Estimates put the looting by banks and investment firms of the U.S. Treasury at between $15 trillion and $20 trillion.

Chris pulled that estimate out of his ass.

"But none of us know.

LOL!

I see why you like this guy, he's even dumber than you.

Who "guarantees" the MBS the Fed is buying, Hank Paulson or Dubya?

Obama.

You call me a conservative, yet support the very economic policies you claim to despise because I, allegedly, believe in them.

What does that say about you?

That I'm confused.
Can you give me a specific example of an economic policy you're referring to?

That depends, do you still think capitalism is the worst thing ever? Just asking, because capitalism is the most effective way to prevent concentration of wealth. On the other hand, it you still support government regulation and a governemnt that actively intervenes in the economy, you actually support the very things you claim to despise.

Capitalism has manufactured the largest private fortunes in history which seems to contradict your allegation that it's the most effective way to prevent concentration of wealth.

Since private fortunes depend upon the existence of money, and only government can print and regulate money, how do you propose to eliminate government's active intervention in the economy?

Capitalism may not be the worst thing ever, but it is among the least democratic institutions ever invented as it requires its workers to check their democratic rights at the front door and submit to a top-down totalitarian management style endorsed by dictators from Mussolini to the current crop of Chinese authoritarians alike.

I despise the way parasites like Soros or Koch use their private fortunes obtained through capitalism to negate the democratic principles that should determine how government functions.

Why don't you?

 

[dblack]

Who "guarantees" the MBS the Fed is buying, Hank Paulson or Dubya?

Obama.

That I'm confused.
Can you give me a specific example of an economic policy you're referring to?

That depends, do you still think capitalism is the worst thing ever? Just asking, because capitalism is the most effective way to prevent concentration of wealth. On the other hand, it you still support government regulation and a governemnt that actively intervenes in the economy, you actually support the very things you claim to despise.

Capitalism has manufactured the largest private fortunes in history which seems to contradict your allegation that it's the most effective way to prevent concentration of wealth.

Haven't we been discussing the likelihood that amassing such extreme private fortunes isn't possible without government intervention?

Since private fortunes depend upon the existence of money, and only government can print and regulate money, how do you propose to eliminate government's active intervention in the economy?

We can seek to minimize it, rather than aggressively indulge it. In any case, have you ever heard of Bitcoin? The days of government control over money may be drawing to a close.

Capitalism may not be the worst thing ever, but it is among the least democratic institutions ever invented as it requires its workers to check their democratic rights at the front door and submit to a top-down totalitarian management style endorsed by dictators from Mussolini to the current crop of Chinese authoritarians alike.

Free market capitalism is the ultimate expression of democratic values, with each person having their say with every dollar they earn and spend. Mussolini and the Chinese employed corporatist government to achieve their ends, not free markets.

We seem to have an equivocation problem here, as you and others seem to view the collusion between large financial interests and government as 'capitalism', whereas I see it as the opposite. Can we clarify that somehow?

I despise the way parasites like Soros or Koch use their private fortunes obtained through capitalism to negate the democratic principles that should determine how government functions.

Why don't you?

Can't speak for others here, but I do. I don't have a problem with wealthy people lobbying for policies that favor their interests, but I despise a government that caters to them. That's exactly why constitutional limits on government's ability to do that are so important. Ironically, and unfortunately, reformers all-too-often see those limits as negating democratic principles - when if fact they're defending them.

 

[georgephillip]

So let's see...

You are saying that if the bottom 5% do practically nothing and earn practically nothing they are somehow hurt when the top 5% double their income if doing nothing does not double in pay. ROFL What an idiot.

Who said the bottom 5% do practically nothing?
The ratio in average income between the top 5 percent and bottom 5 percent increased from 78:1 in 1988 to 114:1 in 1993.
Between 1988 and 2008 (remember what happened then?) the top 1% increased their incomes by 60% while the bottom 5% had no change; possibly because the rich crashed the global economy and destroyed millions of (5%) jobs.

Spotlight on Worldwide Inequality

What do you think it takes to be in the bottom 5%? What part time minimum wage job does one have to have to be in the bottom 5%? Let's pick on my first part time job that put me (as a fifteen year old kid) into the bottom 5%. Bagging groceries. Course I only bagged groceries for a few months before I was promoted to a bottom 10% job. But let's stick to the people who start out bagging groceries and never get a promotion from there for their entire lives.

Now, please explain to me why we should give a massive raise to someone who is bagging groceries part time?

$10,000 per year income places one in the bottom 6% of US earners in my geographical area. Why don't you tell me why people that poor don't deserve a massive raise regardless of the labor they perform especially since the richest 1% of US households increased their income by about 275% between 1979 and 2007?

 

[RKMBrown]

Who said the bottom 5% do practically nothing?
The ratio in average income between the top 5 percent and bottom 5 percent increased from 78:1 in 1988 to 114:1 in 1993.
Between 1988 and 2008 (remember what happened then?) the top 1% increased their incomes by 60% while the bottom 5% had no change; possibly because the rich crashed the global economy and destroyed millions of (5%) jobs.

Spotlight on Worldwide Inequality

What do you think it takes to be in the bottom 5%? What part time minimum wage job does one have to have to be in the bottom 5%? Let's pick on my first part time job that put me (as a fifteen year old kid) into the bottom 5%. Bagging groceries. Course I only bagged groceries for a few months before I was promoted to a bottom 10% job. But let's stick to the people who start out bagging groceries and never get a promotion from there for their entire lives.

Now, please explain to me why we should give a massive raise to someone who is bagging groceries part time?

$10,000 per year income places one in the bottom 6% of US earners in my geographical area. Why don't you tell me why people that poor don't deserve a massive raise regardless of the labor they perform especially since the richest 1% of US households increased their income by about 275% between 1979 and 2007?

Because in order to only make 10k per year one would have to be a part time minimum wage worker. For example, a kid in high school working part time at minimum wage. Part time minimum wage workers, such as kids in high school bagging groceries don't necessarily deserve massive raises. In my experience, everyone that deserves a massive raise gets one or leaves to go to a job that pays more in a very very short amount of time.

Minimum wage income at 40hrs is 14k. You want a 40% raise from 10k? How about working more hours. Oh and take a look at minimum wage increases from 79 to 2014. It went up a helluva lot more than 275%... So what happened? Easy: Welfare is paying people to work part time minimum wage jobs. If they work more than 30hrs at minimum wage they loose their welfare checks. So they work the minimum and stop. You raise minimum wage without raising maximum limits on welfare and they will just work less hours...

 

[Iceweasel]

$10,000 per year income places one in the bottom 6% of US earners in my geographical area. Why don't you tell me why people that poor don't deserve a massive raise regardless of the labor they perform especially since the richest 1% of US households increased their income by about 275% between 1979 and 2007?

Because you aren't their guardian or the morality dictator that decides for us all who deserves what and how much. THAT is much worse than any disparity between rich and poor. The uber rich these days are in global markets and corporations operate worldwide. Why do actors get $20 for a movie role? Or a basketball player so much? The market decided.

Yes, people should make more for their labor but it isn't going to happen until the economy picks up and we are going in the wrong direction. Borrowing, taxing and spending money is not how we create a vibrant and healthy economy.

 

[Bombur]

The Fed will make money on the MBS. A lot of the problems that happened had to do with large changes in value which would require private institutions to liquidate fast which is obviously problematic when everyone is trying to do the same thing.

MBS were rated incorrectly. Investors were running to the markets with bad information and based on multiple levels of market manipulation. A lot of blame to go around.

Do you find the following claim accurate?

"Our financial system—like our participatory democracy—is a mirage. The Federal Reserve purchases $85 billion in U.S. Treasury bonds—much of it worthless subprime mortgages—each month. "

Chris Hedges: The Myth of Human Progress and the Collapse of Complex Societies - Chris Hedges - Truthdig

The article is crap. Like I already said the Fed will make money on buying them.

To claim that trillions are being lent you basically have to ignore that what he is talking about is many small transactions. Something that has worked pretty well btw.

The article is about appealing to people's ignorance and fear of the unknown.

 

[RKMBrown]

$10,000 per year income places one in the bottom 6% of US earners in my geographical area. Why don't you tell me why people that poor don't deserve a massive raise regardless of the labor they perform especially since the richest 1% of US households increased their income by about 275% between 1979 and 2007?

Because you aren't their guardian or the morality dictator that decides for us all who deserves what and how much. THAT is much worse than any disparity between rich and poor. The uber rich these days are in global markets and corporations operate worldwide. Why do actors get $20 for a movie role? Or a basketball player so much? The market decided.

Yes, people should make more for their labor but it isn't going to happen until the economy picks up and we are going in the wrong direction. Borrowing, taxing and spending money is not how we create a vibrant and healthy economy.

People do make more for their labor. The bottom 5% are the people that are happy to be in the bottom 5%. Working 20hrs or less a week at a minimum wage job is what it takes to be in the bottom 5%. If you can't work more than 20hrs a week at minimum wage... give me a break.

 

[healthmyths]

Who "guarantees" the MBS the Fed is buying, Hank Paulson or Dubya?

Obama.

That I'm confused.
Can you give me a specific example of an economic policy you're referring to?

That depends, do you still think capitalism is the worst thing ever? Just asking, because capitalism is the most effective way to prevent concentration of wealth. On the other hand, it you still support government regulation and a governemnt that actively intervenes in the economy, you actually support the very things you claim to despise.

Capitalism has manufactured the largest private fortunes in history which seems to contradict your allegation that it's the most effective way to prevent concentration of wealth.

Since private fortunes depend upon the existence of money, and only government can print and regulate money, how do you propose to eliminate government's active intervention in the economy?

Capitalism may not be the worst thing ever, but it is among the least democratic institutions ever invented as it requires its workers to check their democratic rights at the front door and submit to a top-down totalitarian management style endorsed by dictators from Mussolini to the current crop of Chinese authoritarians alike.

I despise the way parasites like Soros or Koch use their private fortunes obtained through capitalism to negate the democratic principles that should determine how government functions.

Why don't you?

Geez if these billionaires help the poorest people in the USA able to have FREE cell phones... we need more billionaires!
If these billionaires spend a pittance on taxes they are paying the SNAP bill for more Americans on food stamps then let's make more billionaires!

One simple question for simple minded people...
Please explain how in the case of the USA the number of people involved in agriculture i.e. growing food took
1840 Total population: 17,069,453 Farm population: 9,012,000 (estimated) Farmers made up 69% of labor force
2012 There are over 313,000,000 people living in the United States. Of that population, less than 1% claim farming as an occupation

How did that happen?

 

[Iceweasel]

People do make more for their labor. The bottom 5% are the people that are happy to be in the bottom 5%. Working 20hrs or less a week at a minimum wage job is what it takes to be in the bottom 5%. If you can't work more than 20hrs a week at minimum wage... give me a break.

I agree with most of that but wages are down for many people. If you lost a job and are lucky enough to find work, they pay crap wages unless it's a higher end job. And people aren't leaving those. If you work for government you get paid much better than the private sector, bottom end flunky work here starts at $17hr.

One thing we don't hear much about is that the rich don't have the market sown up on greed. I find the cheapest people out there are liberals, and as a contractor in a heavily liberal area it sucks. They don't want you to make any money and many are living in very nice homes bought with very generous public sector salaries.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Who "guarantees" the MBS the Fed is buying, Hank Paulson or Dubya?

Obama.

That I'm confused.
Can you give me a specific example of an economic policy you're referring to?

That depends, do you still think capitalism is the worst thing ever? Just asking, because capitalism is the most effective way to prevent concentration of wealth. On the other hand, it you still support government regulation and a governemnt that actively intervenes in the economy, you actually support the very things you claim to despise.

Capitalism has manufactured the largest private fortunes in history which seems to contradict your allegation that it's the most effective way to prevent concentration of wealth.

Since private fortunes depend upon the existence of money, and only government can print and regulate money, how do you propose to eliminate government's active intervention in the economy?

Capitalism may not be the worst thing ever, but it is among the least democratic institutions ever invented as it requires its workers to check their democratic rights at the front door and submit to a top-down totalitarian management style endorsed by dictators from Mussolini to the current crop of Chinese authoritarians alike.

I despise the way parasites like Soros or Koch use their private fortunes obtained through capitalism to negate the democratic principles that should determine how government functions.

Why don't you?

Capitalism has manufactured the largest private fortunes in history which seems to contradict your allegation that it's the most effective way to prevent concentration of wealth.

How is the concentration of wealth in Cuba?

 

[RKMBrown]

People do make more for their labor. The bottom 5% are the people that are happy to be in the bottom 5%. Working 20hrs or less a week at a minimum wage job is what it takes to be in the bottom 5%. If you can't work more than 20hrs a week at minimum wage... give me a break.

I agree with most of that but wages are down for many people. If you lost a job and are lucky enough to find work, they pay crap wages unless it's a higher end job. And people aren't leaving those. If you work for government you get paid much better than the private sector, bottom end flunky work here starts at $17hr.

One thing we don't hear much about is that the rich don't have the market sown up on greed. I find the cheapest people out there are liberals, and as a contractor in a heavily liberal area it sucks. They don't want you to make any money and many are living in very nice homes bought with very generous public sector salaries.

Sure wages are down. We live in a world economy where people from china are willing to do our jobs for us at 1/10th the pay. Sure it sucks.. Raising our minimum wage won't help that at all. Raising minimum wage eliminates entry level minimum wage jobs.

You want higher wages without having to work for it? Then, you better be prepared for inflationary price increases.

For example, we could place an excise tax on Asian goods made with low labor rates, that would raise prices on said goods. With the prices raised it would make financial sense to make them here and avoid the excise tax.

Pro: higher paying labor jobs than just minimum wage
Neg: higher prices for products at the store, additionally other countries would follow suit with similar import taxes on our products (some already do) which would limit our exports even further.

As for the rich getting richer... I'm only upset about a few issues there and they all originate from government allowed and / or provided Oligopolies and Monopolies.