Case closed, Zimmerman's a gonner

[testarosa]

Obviously, Martin was not afraid of Zimmerman or he would not have attacked him, he would have run from him. Martin was clearly the aggressor.

Good point!

 

[testarosa]

Listen to me.

You are full of shit.

IF you could point to any evidence available to the prosecution which would rebut Zimmerman's account, you'd point to it.

Missorian and others who seem just beyond convinced of Zimmerman's innocence seem to continue claiming that Zimmerman can just give any cockamamie story and the burden of proof is on the prosecution to disprove.

NOT the case.

THEIR burden is in proving that he shot the kid - A claim which is not refuted.

If it was self-defense, it's HIS burden to demonstrate such.

As I said many pages ago in this thread, by those standards, ANYONE who shot anyone could simply state "He was going to hit me!" and leave the State with a dead witness and an unprovable standard.

You know this stuff Ilar, don't you? Aren't you in the legal field? What makes this case different exactly, or is it just wishful thinking by gun nuts?

You are not listening.

Zimmerman will present his case for self defense.

It will sound something like this:

"I saw suspicious activity, a person unknown to me...the neighborhood watch captain...walking in the dark, in the rain...who seemed to be casing the nearby houses and backyards.

I phoned the police while I kept an eye on this person to make sure he engaged in no criminal activity before the police arrived.

When the person noticed that I was watching their activities, they fled and I lost contact with them.

At that time the police dispatcher, concerned for my safety, informed me that they did not need for me to continue following the person, and that I should move to meet the officers when they arrived.

They asked my address, but as I didn't know the whereabouts of the person I had been following, I didn't want to give that information where it was possible the person I was following could hear my conversation, so I told the dispatcher I would meet the officers near the mailboxes.

On my way to the mailboxes, I walked a circuitous route, inspecting windows and doors of the houses nearby for evidence of damage...as is my normal routine when patrolling the neighborhood.

Suddenly a man stepped out of an alley and began shouting at me.

He was angry, questioning why I was following him.

I tried to explain that I was a member of the neighborhood watch when the man sucker punched me in the face.

I fell backwards trying to escape the man, but he was on top of me punching my face and body, he grabbed my head and was slamming the back of my head into something hard...I could feel blood...

At this point, I was afraid he was going to kill me. I felt like I was going to lose consciousness and he was going to keep bashing my head and there was going to be nothing I could do...I was absolutely in fear for my life. I was screaming for help but no one came...

So I took the only course of action available...it was him or me.

I never wanted to kill him, I'm truly sorry that he is dead, but like I said, it was my last resort, I honestly believe he was going to kill me."

And the evidence backs him up.

He called the police...who calls the police first when they intend to kill someone?

Zimmerman had blunt force injuries, Martin did not.

Two witnesses place Zimmerman on the ground, one places Martin on top of him "raining down blows like MMA"

Zimmerman cooperated with the police, and was not arrested until the story became political and racial.

I believe him...the local police believed...the first prosecutor believed him...and the jury will believe him.

Where is the evidence that refutes his account?

We already exchanged phone numbers ;-)

 

[S.J.]

What does it matter how big and tall the kid is? Would it have been ok for Zim to kill the kid if the kid was a 90lb 5' tall little guy? Should we change our statutory laws to cover height and weight? When I was in HS I was 5'7-5'9" 100-140ish as I grew... I won state in wrestling. At that time I would routinely win fights with people that weighed 50% more than I did. None of them ever killed me and it wasn't me that started the fights. Yeah it was a different time when a fist fight was more likely to result in the two becoming friends afterwards than someone getting shot. Boys will be boys and being the king of the mountain was just a part of neighborhood life.

At no point during any of the fights that I've ever been in did the idea of killing the guy come to mind. I did get my head hit on concrete... and it does hurt. I fought him off and won that fight without killing him. Zim had the gun in his hand and "one" second to decide whether to kill the boy or not. If you've ever pointed a weapon at a living thing you'll probably understand that the one second is an eternity. He should have been able to take charge of the situation without killing the boy. Even after shooting the boy, he should have tried to save him. He treated the boy with no respect from the start to the end of the encounter... I suspect the jury will do the same to Zim.

I'm always skeptical of posters who preface their comments by listing their accomplishments and bragging about their abilities, knowing there's no way of verifying it. Makes me think they're just trying to impress somebody, or bolster their credibility, not realizing they really just look like a bullshitter. Why not just make your comment and skip the bragging?

Very good point thanks. Yeah my mom, god rest her soul, always said I brag too much. Please ignore the winning fights part, that completely irrelevant. The only reason I mentioned it was to set the stage for, yeah I've my head beat in before and been in tons of fights.. If you have not been in physical confrontations, understanding what happens in fights is a bit of a mystery no?

But we don't know if that's true or not. For all we know, you could be living in a fantasy world. I just think your comment would be more effective if you just made your point.

 

[Yurt]

If he's imprisoned for shooting an unarmed child, that is justice.

what if the "child" was beating someone to death? still justice?

That's apparently not what happened, was it??? The child is the one that was shot dead by a man that outweighed him by 45 pounds. If Zimmerman is as fragile as you are claiming then he should not have been playing cop.

i don't know what happened. unlike you, i don't presume facts that i know nothing about.

 

[testarosa]

Missourian, all of that matters not a bit.

The women will take upon themselves the character as present of Z, will consider the circumstance, and then ask themselves why he murdered another woman's son.

Stop the masculine-type logic. That is not going to determine this case.

Masculine-type logic? Are you serious? Logic is not the special province of men. Far from it. In fact, the simple act of thinking so make is clear you are unable to think logically. Women are no less logical than men, though men like to think so, which is a perfect example of how illogical men are. Wanting to believe women are inherently less logical than men is an emotional process, not a process of reasoning.

Esmeralda - oh wait! I guess you already used yours up on me today. Good one!

 

[testarosa]

Too obvious?

 

[RKMBrown]

I just think your comment would be more effective if you just made your point.

Agreed.

 

[RKMBrown]

Zim, appears to have been the initial aggressor in so far as he was following the boy, who would from his perspective see Zim as an aggressor who is stalking him. The boy had the right to stand his ground against Zim. Zim being the adult, should have been able to diffuse the situation. Zim being the adult with a gun, should have been able to get the boy to back off without shooting the boy in the chest. Where I grew up the guy that gets up after loosing a fist fight with a knife or gun is a despicable coward.

WTF? Zimmerman was allowed to follow the young man. This is still America. Following someone is NOT a crime. In reaction to that possibly perceived "provocation" it appears that Trayvon set out to beat the shit out of Zimmerman. That would make Trayvon, not Zimmerman, the one who initially provoked the physical altercation.

The law allows for someone to stand their ground and defend them selves. Put your feet in Tray's shoes. Someone is following you and refuses to stop following you to your home. It's called being stalked. Tray may have felt a gang banger was directing his gang to his location. Tray would have heard Zim calling out Try's location. Listen to the tape.

It sure appears that Trayvon was winning, too. He had no injuries except a scrape or abrasion on a knuckle which is consistent with landing blows, not getting attacked. By stark contrast, Zimmerman had a busted nose and those injuries to the back of his skull consistent with his account that he was getting his head smashed onto the walkway. If the jury credits that (and the evidence appears to be almost entirely in his favor on those crucial matters) then the defense of justification appears to be plenty viable.

Ever watch Muhammad Ali fights? Rope a dope was a winning tactic.

 

[RKMBrown]

what if the "child" was beating someone to death? still justice?

That's apparently not what happened, was it??? The child is the one that was shot dead by a man that outweighed him by 45 pounds. If Zimmerman is as fragile as you are claiming then he should not have been playing cop.

i don't know what happened. unlike you, i don't presume facts that i know nothing about.

^^^ this... we'll just have to let the jury decide.

 

[IlarMeilyr]

* * * *

Ever watch Muhammad Ali fights? Rope a dope was a winning tactic.

Now THERE ^ is one very Stupid rejoinder.

Mohammed Ali dodged and ducked and bobbed and weaved. He didn't get his skull pounded into the turnbuckle.

Hint: that would NOT be a winning tactic.

 

[Papageorgio]

I didn't realize you were such a goddamned misogynist. Maybe you think women shouldn't be lawyers, and judges, or only a paltry token few. Yeah that's it we should all stick to wiping butts and emptying bedpans. You don't know what you are talking about. There is nothing, N O T H I N G, that indicates women will be less objective than men on a jury. For your information and hopefully your edification, I could convict you in a heartbeat. I could also sentence you to death by whatever means the state would be using at the time.

Now, if the victim would have been Morman, Jake would acquit without a problem.

That's a very handsome photo of you. Love the stache!

Thank you, I've had the stache for awhile, helps my TV persona.

 

[Missourian]

Suddenly a man stepped out of an alley and began shouting at me.

He was angry, questioning why I was following him.

I tried to explain that I was a member of the neighborhood watch when the man sucker punched me in the face.

I fell backwards trying to escape the man, but he was on top of me punching my face and body, he grabbed my head and was slamming the back of my head into something hard...I could feel blood...

...

At this point, I was afraid he was going to kill me. I felt like I was going to lose consciousness and he was going to keep bashing my head and there was going to be nothing I could do...I was absolutely in fear for my life. I was screaming for help but no one came...

So I took the only course of action available...it was him or me.
...

I never wanted to kill him, I'm truly sorry that he is dead, but like I said, it was my last resort, I honestly believe he was going to kill me."

...

Where is the evidence that refutes his account?

...Still waiting for anyone to present facts or evidence that refute this account of the incident.

Ok here you go:

>>> Suddenly a man stepped out of an alley and began shouting at me.
It was not sudden, he chased the boy for a long period of time before the boy finally turned to defend himself. It was a boy not a man. There are no alleys there.

>>> He was angry, questioning why I was following him.
Prejudicial. The boy was just as likely afraid for his life from the man that was following him, and angry.

>>> I tried to explain that I was a member of the neighborhood watch when the man sucker punched me in the face.

I did not hear this on the audio tape, do you have a link? Unless you can provide evidence that Zim did say he was of the neighborhood watch this is merely a fabrication of something that Zim either "intended" to say and/or "should" have said.

>>> I fell backwards trying to escape the man, but he was on top of me punching my face and body, he grabbed my head and was slamming the back of my head into something hard...I could feel blood...

this part I believe...

>>> At this point, I was afraid he was going to kill me. I felt like I was going to lose consciousness and he was going to keep bashing my head and there was going to be nothing I could do...I was absolutely in fear for my life.

Bull honky. If he was "loosing" consciousness he would not have had the faculties to draw and fire his weapon at the boys chest. Have you ever had your bell rung to the point of loosing consciousness?

>>>> I was screaming for help but no one came...

False. Someone was there. That person said something to effect of I'm calling the cops will be right back. I believe that is when Zim killed the kid... when the man / witness who was there went inside to call the cops. Listen to the guy screaming for help, that is not a man "loosing" consciousness.

>>> So I took the only course of action available...it was him or me.
False. Zim's injuries were not fatal. The boy did not have to be killed.

>>> I never wanted to kill him, I'm truly sorry that he is dead, but like I said, it was my last resort, I honestly believe he was going to kill me."

False again. In the days following Zimmerman actually said something to the effect that it was god's plan that killed the boy. He also said something to the effect that he did not want this one to get away cause "they" always get away. It was not his last resort. If you listen to the tape you hear someone "crying" for help... but you never hear someone yelling get back, or stop I'm the neighborhood watch, or get back or I'll shoot do you?

This is a lot for 1 post, but I'll try to cover the the salient points.


First, 17 years old is a man...at 17 I was in a uniform at basic training at Ft Dix, NJ...Alpha 4, leads the way - Alpha Company, 4th platoon, 26th Infantry Regiment.


Second, if you believe Martin was on top of Zimmerman beating his head against the ground, while Zimmerman was screaming for help, the case is over.

My best friend went to prison for the same...five years for beating a man's head on the ground after he was on the ground.

Third, I've had my bell rung more than a few times...I remember one in particular when I was hit so hard my vision went black...it went and it came back in an instant...but it could have just as easily been lights out.

You can feel like you could lose consciousness getting your head smashed over and over and still have the presence of mind to defend yourself before that line is crossed.

Fourth, there are no witnesses to encounter, Zimmerman could have said anything, Martin may not have given him a chance to say anything, all there will be is Zimmerman's word and zero refutation.

Last, Zimmerman can't be expected to think clearly while he is under attack and getting his head slammed into concrete, or a rock or whatever.

I've experienced shock, and I wasn't injured or being assaulted at the time...I'll link to the experience. I wrote a post about it.

All Zimmerman has to prove is that he was in fear for his life.

That's it...we can say "I would have done this differently, or that differently"...we have the benefit of hindsight...we go in knowing the outcome, and I think we forget that sometimes.

When I look at Zimmerman's actions, they seem to me to be reasonable.

Zimmerman didn't know Martin...for all he knew Martin was a murderer.

He didn't have 200,000 hour of media background on Martin to weigh while determining whether Martin was going to beat him to death.

He didn't know Martin's age, his history...all he knew was he was trying to protect his neighborhood and this guy who he already suspected was on drugs and up to no good, was slamming his head into the ground repeatedly without any indication he was going to stop, and no assurances that help would get there before Zimmerman was dead, and his killer would escape...possibly with Zimmerman's gun!

In the same situation, only knowing what Zimmerman knew at the time, I can't say that I would not have made the same decision.

And that is the real bottom line. In the same circumstances, if you truly believed your life was in eminent jeopardy, would you make the same decision?

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.
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..
EDIT --- Link to my post on the effects of shock...not my finest hour, but an experience I will never forget. http://www.usmessageboard.com/law-a...815-murder-or-self-defense-2.html#post3713625

 

[squeeze berry]

Jakes is the board joke. Nobody on either side of any issue takes him seriously. He's just a troll, and a liar, and more than a little creepy.

irony here ^ is delicious

why don't you tell the story of how you called me a cracker and I retaliated in kind.

You went crying to the mods. boo hoo

You then posted a thread saying how I was going to be in for a big surprise.

and what happened.

you got egg all over you tranny face.

 

[Dot Com]

just saw that there was a mandatory minimum for 2nd degree murder committed w/ a gun.

Um.... I surf the internet too, I go to many dot coms every day.

Something in common!

negged & put on ignore

As to the OP, if its a jury of 6 WillowTree- like, white females, he's as good as free. They might as well call the trial off.

 

[S.J.]

Jakes is the board joke. Nobody on either side of any issue takes him seriously. He's just a troll, and a liar, and more than a little creepy.

irony here ^ is delicious

why don't you tell the story of how you called me a cracker and I retaliated in kind.

You went crying to the mods. boo hoo

You then posted a thread saying how I was going to be in for a big surprise.

and what happened.

you got egg all over you tranny face.

Jake likes to start shit with people, then go crying to the mods when they respond. He's a little bitch.

 

[earlycuyler]

ummm...... Zimmerman wanted to be a cop & belonged to a "fight" gym as opposed to simply a weightlifting gym. Martin, on the other hand, 158 lbs. unarmed as well, pretty small fry compared to 200. GZ was also 28 and armed & Martin WAS 17.

Shooting of Trayvon Martin - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Zimmerman's height is shown as 5′8″ (1.73 m); and his weight at 200 lb (91 kg) on the Sanford Police Department Offense Report for February 26, 2012, the night of the shooting.

so an armed, 28 yr old, 200 lb guy who trains at an MMA gym stalks an unarmed, 158 lb, 17 yr old who had just finished making a purchase at a local business.
GZ was out for action & if there was none, which there wasn't, he was going to manufacture it, which he did. He also disobeyed the dispatcher's instructions. This guy could use some rehabilitation & prison would do that for him.

George Zimmerman trained at ?the most complete fight gym in the world? as a kickboxer

George Zimmerman trained at “the most complete fight gym in the world” as a kickboxer
Posted on June 4, 2013
A trained kickboxer! A kickboxer! A 28 year old trained kickboxer up against a 17 year old kid carrying candy. Trayvon Martin didn’t stand a chance.

There was MMA style fighting but it wasn’t Trayvon Martin. This is why Mark O’Mara wanted to paint this kid as a big scary black guy and taint the jury pool.

"Open & shut case" Guilty, 2nd degree murder.

This attitude is common among CCW holders. About 60% of them should be denied, but politics prevents this from happening. Zimmerman should have been barred from owneing a spudzooka let alone a fire arm.

 

[Sunshine]

Zim, appears to have been the initial aggressor in so far as he was following the boy, who would from his perspective see Zim as an aggressor who is stalking him. The boy had the right to stand his ground against Zim. Zim being the adult, should have been able to diffuse the situation. Zim being the adult with a gun, should have been able to get the boy to back off without shooting the boy in the chest. Where I grew up the guy that gets up after loosing a fist fight with a knife or gun is a despicable coward.

WTF? Zimmerman was allowed to follow the young man. This is still America. Following someone is NOT a crime. In reaction to that possibly perceived "provocation" it appears that Trayvon set out to beat the shit out of Zimmerman. That would make Trayvon, not Zimmerman, the one who initially provoked the physical altercation.

The law allows for someone to stand their ground and defend them selves. Put your feet in Tray's shoes. Someone is following you and refuses to stop following you to your home. It's called being stalked. Tray may have felt a gang banger was directing his gang to his location. Tray would have heard Zim calling out Try's location. Listen to the tape.

It sure appears that Trayvon was winning, too. He had no injuries except a scrape or abrasion on a knuckle which is consistent with landing blows, not getting attacked. By stark contrast, Zimmerman had a busted nose and those injuries to the back of his skull consistent with his account that he was getting his head smashed onto the walkway. If the jury credits that (and the evidence appears to be almost entirely in his favor on those crucial matters) then the defense of justification appears to be plenty viable.

Ever watch Muhammad Ali fights? Rope a dope was a winning tactic.

You don't have the right to stand your ground with the police. And merely walking behind someone is not stalking, nor is it a physical assault.

 

[RKMBrown]

This is a lot for 1 post, but I'll try to cover the the salient points.


First, 17 years old is a man...at 17 I was in a uniform at basic training at Ft Dix, NJ...Alpha 4, leads the way - Alpha Company, 4th platoon, 26th Infantry Regiment.


Second, if you believe Martin was on top of Zimmerman beating his head against the ground, while Zimmerman was screaming for help, the case is over.

My best friend went to prison for the same...five years for beating a man's head on the ground after he was on the ground.

Third, I've had my bell rung more than a few times...I remember one in particular when I was hit so hard my vision went black...it went and it came back in an instant...but it could have just as easily been lights out.

You can feel like you could lose consciousness getting your head smashed over and over and still have the presence of mind to defend yourself before that line is crossed.

Fourth, there are no witnesses to encounter, Zimmerman could have said anything, Martin may not have given him a chance to say anything, all there will be is Zimmerman's word and zero refutation.

Last, Zimmerman can't be expected to think clearly while he is under attack and getting his head slammed into concrete, or a rock or whatever.

I've experienced shock, and I wasn't injured or being assaulted at the time...I'll link to the experience. I wrote a post about it.

All Zimmerman has to prove is that he was in fear for his life.

That's it...we can say "I would have done this differently, or that differently"...we have the benefit of hindsight...we go in knowing the outcome, and I think we forget that sometimes.

When I look at Zimmerman's actions, they seem to me to be reasonable.

Zimmerman didn't know Martin...for all he knew Martin was a murderer.

He didn't have 200,000 hour of media background on Martin to weigh while determining whether Martin was going to beat him to death.

He didn't know Martin's age, his history...all he knew was he was trying to protect his neighborhood and this guy who he already suspected was on drugs and up to no good, was slamming his head into the ground repeatedly without any indication he was going to stop, and no assurances that help would get there before Zimmerman was dead, and his killer would escape...possibly with Zimmerman's gun!

In the same situation, only knowing what Zimmerman knew at the time, I can't say that I would not have made the same decision.

And that is the real bottom line. In the same circumstances, if you truly believed your life was in eminent jeopardy, would you make the same decision?

.
.
.
.
..
EDIT --- Link to my post on the effects of shock...not my finest hour, but an experience I will never forget. http://www.usmessageboard.com/law-a...815-murder-or-self-defense-2.html#post3713625

Very well stated.

And for these reasons if no further facts came up, I would not lean to convicting on 2nd degree. IMO from the evidence shown the only reasonable case the prosecution might have is manslaughter. Let's see what the evidence is... Would I have made the same decision? I've been in a similar fight on the ground with my head being bashed, I did not have a CC carry pistol on me. I remember the feeling of "self" preservation coming on. In hindsight I'm glad I didn't have a pistol on me, otherwise I might have had to make the wrong decision. Turned out afterwards that the guy in question was a victim of child abuse by his father. IOW he did not need to be killed he needed to be taught a lesson. I was able to teach the guy a lesson without dying or killing the guy. I suppose I'm just lamenting that Zimmerman did not just force the guy to back off. It's a sad story of two guys who probably both thought they were in the right, fighting each other for absolutely no reason other than they both though ill of the other. sad story...

In a strange way, one has to ask why Zim appears to not have defended himself. In the back of my head.. I can't shake this really bad feeling that Zim is not the angel he's trying to project. Why would a grown man, not defend himself? Why would he just lay there crying again and again for help? Then I remember he's got a gun.. then I start thinking maybe.. just maybe Zim was staging a show, playing rope a dope... maybe... but alas I have no proof, only supposition.

 

[Sunshine]

ummm...... Zimmerman wanted to be a cop & belonged to a "fight" gym as opposed to simply a weightlifting gym. Martin, on the other hand, 158 lbs. unarmed as well, pretty small fry compared to 200. GZ was also 28 and armed & Martin WAS 17.

Shooting of Trayvon Martin - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Zimmerman's height is shown as 5′8″ (1.73 m); and his weight at 200 lb (91 kg) on the Sanford Police Department Offense Report for February 26, 2012, the night of the shooting.

so an armed, 28 yr old, 200 lb guy who trains at an MMA gym stalks an unarmed, 158 lb, 17 yr old who had just finished making a purchase at a local business.
GZ was out for action & if there was none, which there wasn't, he was going to manufacture it, which he did. He also disobeyed the dispatcher's instructions. This guy could use some rehabilitation & prison would do that for him.

George Zimmerman trained at ?the most complete fight gym in the world? as a kickboxer

George Zimmerman trained at “the most complete fight gym in the world” as a kickboxer
Posted on June 4, 2013
A trained kickboxer! A kickboxer! A 28 year old trained kickboxer up against a 17 year old kid carrying candy. Trayvon Martin didn’t stand a chance.

There was MMA style fighting but it wasn’t Trayvon Martin. This is why Mark O’Mara wanted to paint this kid as a big scary black guy and taint the jury pool.

"Open & shut case" Guilty, 2nd degree murder.

This attitude is common among CCW holders. About 60% of them should be denied, but politics prevents this from happening. Zimmerman should have been barred from owneing a spudzooka let alone a fire arm.

You have personally met them all. If you have, I am Marilyn Monroe.

 

[RKMBrown]

You don't have the right to stand your ground with the police. And merely walking behind someone is not stalking, nor is it a physical assault.

Zimmerman was not the police, nor was he acting for the police, nor was he wearing a badge or uniform of a security guard, ...

I believe there was a lot of running involved as well, not just walking. Maybe I'm wrong about the term stalking, but I thought tracking someone, following them, is what stalking is. Again I'm saying stalking from the perspective of Trayvon... even the dispatcher appears to tell Zimmerman to stop following/stalking that the police are on their way.

Stand your ground applies not just to Zim, but also to Tray. If Tray felt threatened by Zim following him, chasing him, then he had the right to defend himself.