Census finds record gap between Rich and Poor

[bigrebnc1775]

The CATO Institute? That same CATO Institute, founded by the Koch brothers?

Funded BY:
* Altria (the report identifies Altria Corporate Services as the contributor)
* American Petroleum Institute
* Amerisure Companies
* Amgen
* Chicago Mercantile Exchange
* Comcast Corporation
* Consumer Electronic Association
* Ebay Inc
* ExxonMobil
* FedEx Corporation
* Freedom Communications
* General Motors
* Honda North America
* Korea International Trade Association
* Microsoft
* National Association of Software and Service Companies
* Pepco Holdings Inc.
* R.J. Reynolds Tobacco Company
* TimeWarner
* Toyota Motor Corporation
* UST Inc
* Verisign
* Verizon Communications
* Visa USA Inc
* Volkswagen of America
* Wal-Mart Stores

Supported by:

* Castle Rock Foundation (Formerly Coors Foundation)
* Charles G. Koch Charitable Foundation
* Claude R. Lambe Charitable Foundation
* Earhart Foundation
* JM Foundation
* John M. Olin Foundation, Inc.
* Koch Family Foundations
* Lynde and Harry Bradley Foundation
* Scaife Foundations (Sarah Mellon Scaife, Carthage)

What is your point?
In the Reagan years, family incomes (again in 2000 dollars) rose nearly 15 percent from about $47,000 annually to over $54,000.
DLC: America by the Numbers: Comparing the Presidents' Economic Records by Al From

Of course income went up during the Reagan years. The work Carter had done was coming to bear.

Carter did noting but grow government new hand out programs. He did nothing.

 

[georgephillip]

The gap between the rich and the rest becomes a problem as it widens. Currently it stands about as wide as it was in 1929.

So? that's corollary not causation. Till you prove empirically that wealth for one causes poverty for others, there is no connection except for inspiring envy in those undeserving of wealth.

If it's true the richest 0.01% of Americans (10,000 people) have a median annual income of $50,000,000 and they have $350,000,000 in assets AND that is an increase or 550% since 1978, the first question becomes how have you fared in the past 30 years?

Doesn't matter how well I fared. The fact that they may have done well does not affect me... no no... not true. If they do well I tend to do well too. Why? Because they can afford to hire me and pay me more. If they do bad, I do worse. Again Corollary, not causation.



No, I find it far more corrupt since 2000 when McCain/Feingold passed. And even more so since the creation of 527 groups. In a way, the Citizens United decision made it less corrupt as now corporations can act like unions and 527's and compete fairly for politicians.

But till we enact universal term limits and cap time in government, ban government unions and demand total transparency in ALL campaign finance... it will remain a mess. This is not because of the rich, it is because of people protecting their elitist political fiefdoms with special interest law. The worst practitioners of this? Government Unions and 527s. Notice, they were the only ones who got bailed out.

hmmmmmmmmm, Who's the real corruptive influence here?

Do you see our elected government as more democratic or less democratic than it was in 1978?

In theory. That's why you need total transparency of election funding. I'd LOVE to see how much money Gore got from Buddhist temples from the Chinese. I'd love to have access to the books of ACORN/COI, SEIU, La Raza, the NEA, Teamsters, AFL/CIO, TSA, Freddie Mac/Fannie Mae, and every lobbying firm in the nation.

Then again, I want federal bribery a crime punished by public hanging of the lobbyist and politician. (Shut up Tardtard. Nobody gives a fuck about your fake graphs and insanty)

And now corporations will also be freer to spend on political campaigns.

About time. Unless you're willing to remove, unconstitutionally, all public money from elections everyone should be allowed to participate.

Again, you have corollary about why rich people getting richer is a bad thing, not causation. Rich people invest in businesses that will earn them interest. The better the idea and profit, the more they'll invest. They employ people poorer than them, making them more wealthy than what they were when unemployed. They consume, supporting hundreds if not thousands of businesses and their employee.

Where is the downside? Why wouldn't you encourage the creation of MORE rich people? Can you not see the connection between more rich people meaning more growth and less poor people? At least those willing to actually work. Those wanting a handout deserve to stay poor and less entitlement to charity.

Tax what you want less of. Subsidize what you want more of. So why do you want more poor people and less rich people?

The wealth gap which shrank steadily for about 50 years following the Great Depression began to widen in the late 70s because of events and actions taken by both major political parties. (See Post #210 above)

From ending Bretton Woods to the repeal of Glass-Steagall, Republicans AND Democrats served the interests of those who funded their campaigns, and those events and actions caused the wealth gap to widen today to approximately where it was in 1929.

The richest 10,000 Americans you're hoping for table scraps from payed just over 20% of their income in taxes. Please be sure to bow respectfully as you mail in your IRS donation on their behalf.

The corruption level in government and big business has only increased as the wealth gap has widened and that is probably cause and corollary. I agree with you about McCain Feingold, but it was probably delusional to expect "reform" from legislation co-sponsored by a member of the "Keating Five."

Finally the growth of the financial sector has re-introduced the "dark pools" of capital and added High Frequency Trading to Wall Street's systemic fraud:

"Last weekend, The Wall Street Journal highlighted new academic research showing that investors may be trading on insider information after companies approach hedge funds for loans.

"Researchers found that on average, in the five days before companies announce a loan from a hedge fund, the volume of short sales increases by 75 percent as compared with the 60 days before a deal is announced.

"There was no comparable uptick in betting against companies that borrowed money from commercial banks instead.

"With short selling, hedge funds and other investors make money by wagering that a stock's price will fall.

"Borrowing from hedge funds rather than commercial banks can be seen as a sign of distress, as hedge funds tend to charge higher interest rates."

In the spirit of taxing what we want less of, how about taxing corruption into extinction?

Eye on the Bailout

 

[Bern80]

Oh. I disagree. I think Luck is far under-rated, included the luck of where you were born and the circumstances surrounding that.

Yes that's true. But how much does it have to do with the widening gap between rich and poor? Are more people being born in shittier places? Are more kids being born to shitty parents?

Certainly not just luck, but motivation? Nah. Many (if not most) of them are more self motivated than I. They just either aren't as motivated by money or that motivation hasn't led to higher incomes. It happens.

That's true of a lot of people that aren't wealthy. For some enough is enough. It isn't that they wouldn't like more money. It's that apparently they are comfortable enough to not pursue more. You must have employees or at least co-workers that make less than you. What is holding them back from attaining the wealth you have? Among my co-workers I can tell you what it is; apathy. Some speak of wealth like attaining it for themselves simply isn't possible. The only walls that I see in the way are the excuses people make. None of us make more than $15.00/hr. Do any of us have a good excuse to blame on someone else that we aren't wealthier? No. If you asked that question of people the only barriers you will see are the one's they build themselves.

I have all the respect in the world for people who can see that within themselves. I lived on far, far less than my current income for years...no, decades!....until returning to graduate school as an "alternative student" (that's french for "older than most"). I'm probably happier now than i was when I was poor like all grad students, but that has virtually nothing to do with money. It's because I'm doing what I love or like most of the time. The only thing the increased income has given me is a fancier bike and a better beer selection.

By the way, I should add that I'm not filthy stinking rich. I still work for a living and don't live the jet-set.

And why didn't other people do that? Was it impossible for them to go to grad school to learn more? "Be the change you want to see in your life." I don't know who said that, but that's what you did. I'm sorry man but you are the proof that I'm right about this. You wanted change and you made it happen. When everyone else says they've tried and still can't make it maybe I'll believe in this invisible hand schtick holding people down. But out of most people here I'm not hearing even that. All I'm hearing is excuses.

 

[Big Fitz]

The richest 10,000 Americans you're hoping for table scraps from payed just over 20% of their income in taxes. Please be sure to bow respectfully as you mail in your IRS donation on their behalf.

Funny. Just released information from the IRS and GBO confirm the top 1% pay 40% of all income taxes. The top 10% pay 60% of the taxes.

I suppose a thank you is in order?

In the spirit of taxing what we want less of, how about taxing corruption into extinction?

Fine. All we have to do is prove corruption, and I'm fine with having extremely severe punishments.

"With short selling, hedge funds and other investors make money by wagering that a stock's price will fall.

Short selling is a natural part of the market. Anyone who's played the game Railroad Tycoon knows the risk of doing that with Guilded age rules in place. But I am for in regulating the currently wide open derivative markets. There needs to be guardrails on wall street in regards to this.

 

[xotoxi]

Census finds record gap between rich and poor Americans

Does that mean that the rich own more records while the poor own fewer records?

 

[Trajan]

"There’s a great WSJ blog called "The Wealth Report" by Robert Frank, who wrote an excellent book called "Richistan" in which he makes a case that the world’s wealthy have essentially formed a shadow (let’s call it virtual as it sounds nicer) nation 'where the top 1% control $17T in wealth, have their own health care system (concierge doctors), travel system (private jets, destination clubs) and language. (”Who’s your household manager?')."

"As this chart shows, the US is cranking out multimillionaires at a record pace with super-rich (more than $10M) households doubling in the past decade.

"What’s scary is that doubling the amount of people who have more than $10M per household (from 300K to 600K) means there’s $3,000,000,000,000 less available for the other 98% of the of the households as MONEY IS A COMMODITY and can only be possessed by one person OR another."

This has more to do with Republicans AND Democrats dependence on the richest 1% of Americans to fund their campaigns than it does with "merit."

FLUSH the DC TOILET in 2010.

The Dooh Nibor Economy

thats so cock- eyed I can barely contain my derision.

Then maybe you should cock that other eye in the direction of Donald Trump (and please feel free to cut loose all that derision)

"Donald Trump (and no disrespect to The Donald as I love the guy, but he’s a good example), one of our 1,000 Billionaires, spends $1.2B to put up 1,000 new condos in Manhattan. He sells those condos for $2.2M each to 1,000 of our nation’s 1.8M people who have $10M or more, pocketing an extra $1Bn for all his hard work.

* Since nice condos 'only' cost $1M just 7 years ago, the poor multimillionaires must figure out how to come up with an extra 10% of their net worth in order to maintain the 'Trump Lifestyle.' "Let’s say they earn $500K per year and need an extra 50K - doesn’t seem like much does it?

o "They in turn raise the prices they charge to 1,000 of their clients (the 150M strong "middle class") by 10%. These people are the doctors, lawyers, store owners, white collars, etc. that you do business with every day.

+ That forces the middle class, who can barely afford their lifestyle to pass that 10% on to each other, as well as the 120M Americans who have household incomes of less than $48,000 a year, many FAR less than that in the form of vital services they can’t live without."

"That’s how your housekeeper, who spent $3.20 per gallon to fill up her tank in order to clean your house for $10 per hour, ends up paying for the Trump condo she’s cleaning.

"It’s a nickel here and a dime there but when you pick the pockets of 270M people for "just" a quarter a dozen times a day that’s $3 x 270M x 365 days = $295Bn a year.

" Multiply this petty theft over a 10-year period and that’s how you move $3T of our missing $4T from the poorhouse to the penthouse - Dooh Nibor!

my god the humanity.

"what the traffic will bare"? ever hear of that term?


While that has a twisted logic lets see him do that with government regulation etc.....

 

[georgephillip]

"Who are the top 0,01%? They are the top 10,000 income earners in the United States of America. If you THINK you are in the top 0.01%, you are not. People in the top 10,000 know only KNOW they are in the top 0.01% but they know where they rank as well.

"The median ANNUAL income of a person in the top 0.01% is $50,000,0000. They have $350,000,000 in assets and, since 1978, that is an increase of 550% - how have you done the past 30 years?"

Like Warren Buffett many of these elites pay taxes on capital gains and not on income.

BTW, the REALLY richest Americans (all 400 of them) have an average annual income about equal to the 0.01%ers' asset holdings.

Maybe we should open the next front in the class war at the top quintile of the richest 1%?

America is 234

 

[uscitizen]

Census finds record gap between rich and poor Americans

Does that mean that the rich own more records while the poor own fewer records?

And the young have no records at all, they just have data files...

 

[Bern80]

Maybe we should open the next front in the class war at the top quintile of the richest 1%?

America is 234

Why?

 

[georgephillip]

The richest 10,000 Americans you're hoping for table scraps from payed just over 20% of their income in taxes. Please be sure to bow respectfully as you mail in your IRS donation on their behalf.

Funny. Just released information from the IRS and GBO confirm the top 1% pay 40% of all income taxes. The top 10% pay 60% of the taxes.

I suppose a thank you is in order?

In the spirit of taxing what we want less of, how about taxing corruption into extinction?

Fine. All we have to do is prove corruption, and I'm fine with having extremely severe punishments.

"With short selling, hedge funds and other investors make money by wagering that a stock's price will fall.

Short selling is a natural part of the market. Anyone who's played the game Railroad Tycoon knows the risk of doing that with Guilded age rules in place. But I am for in regulating the currently wide open derivative markets. There needs to be guardrails on wall street in regards to this.

Is insider trader an acceptable part of the game?

How about High Frequency Trading?

About 1500 bankers went to prison for control fraud in the aftermath of the Savings and Loan scandal. There have been Zero bankers so far who have enjoyed the same fate from a crime that is orders of magnitude larger than the S&L.

Who should apologize for that?

 

[Big Fitz]

Is insider trader an acceptable part of the game?

No, it's a crime and those who do it should be severely punished. This is done by unscrupulous people regardless of wealth.

How about High Frequency Trading?

That is a new tool that needs to have controls put in to make it managable. the Kilo-drop that occurred earlier this year is a good example of why you have to have safeguards added. Illegal? Criminal? no. It's a tool.

There have been Zero bankers so far who have enjoyed the same fate from a crime that is orders of magnitude larger than the S&L.

Maybe you should ask the regulators in the government tasked with doing the job of regulating the market. If you're not going to enforce the laws, and then nobody obeys them, who's fault is that? If there aren't sane regulations on these markets, why not? What is being done to correct this in a way that is rational and reasoned.

Who should apologize for that?

Who's fault is it first? Who's responsible for oversight? When there are no laws regarding it, there is no crime unfortunately. Morality was divorced from law during the Progressive Clarence Darrow's era.

 

[rightwinger]

"Who are the top 0,01%? They are the top 10,000 income earners in the United States of America. If you THINK you are in the top 0.01%, you are not. People in the top 10,000 know only KNOW they are in the top 0.01% but they know where they rank as well.

"The median ANNUAL income of a person in the top 0.01% is $50,000,0000. They have $350,000,000 in assets and, since 1978, that is an increase of 550% - how have you done the past 30 years?"

Like Warren Buffett many of these elites pay taxes on capital gains and not on income.

BTW, the REALLY richest Americans (all 400 of them) have an average annual income about equal to the 0.01%ers' asset holdings.

Maybe we should open the next front in the class war at the top quintile of the richest 1%?

America is 234

Maybe we should stop having them pay taxes at the same rate as someone who makes $250K

 

[Big Fitz]

"Who are the top 0,01%? They are the top 10,000 income earners in the United States of America. If you THINK you are in the top 0.01%, you are not. People in the top 10,000 know only KNOW they are in the top 0.01% but they know where they rank as well.

"The median ANNUAL income of a person in the top 0.01% is $50,000,0000. They have $350,000,000 in assets and, since 1978, that is an increase of 550% - how have you done the past 30 years?"

Like Warren Buffett many of these elites pay taxes on capital gains and not on income.

BTW, the REALLY richest Americans (all 400 of them) have an average annual income about equal to the 0.01%ers' asset holdings.

Maybe we should open the next front in the class war at the top quintile of the richest 1%?

America is 234

Maybe we should stop having them pay taxes at the same rate as someone who makes $250K

I didn't realize you were in favor of a flat tax.

Ohhh wait... you're talking about stealing everything from them. yeah, that's even MORE fair! How about after we rob em blind we shoot em too so they won't tell on us?

 

[rightwinger]

"Who are the top 0,01%? They are the top 10,000 income earners in the United States of America. If you THINK you are in the top 0.01%, you are not. People in the top 10,000 know only KNOW they are in the top 0.01% but they know where they rank as well.

"The median ANNUAL income of a person in the top 0.01% is $50,000,0000. They have $350,000,000 in assets and, since 1978, that is an increase of 550% - how have you done the past 30 years?"

Like Warren Buffett many of these elites pay taxes on capital gains and not on income.

BTW, the REALLY richest Americans (all 400 of them) have an average annual income about equal to the 0.01%ers' asset holdings.

Maybe we should open the next front in the class war at the top quintile of the richest 1%?

America is 234

Maybe we should stop having them pay taxes at the same rate as someone who makes $250K

I didn't realize you were in favor of a flat tax.

Ohhh wait... you're talking about stealing everything from them. yeah, that's even MORE fair! How about after we rob em blind we shoot em too so they won't tell on us?

No

I'm talking about differentiating between the super rich and the upper middle class. The Republicans succeeded in lumping those who make $250 K per year with those who make $250 million a year. That way, they protect the super wealthy from tax increases.

Time to go back to multiple indexed tax brackets that keep the wealthy from hiding

 

[Bern80]

Maybe we should stop having them pay taxes at the same rate as someone who makes $250K

I didn't realize you were in favor of a flat tax.

Ohhh wait... you're talking about stealing everything from them. yeah, that's even MORE fair! How about after we rob em blind we shoot em too so they won't tell on us?

No

I'm talking about differentiating between the super rich and the upper middle class. The Republicans succeeded in lumping those who make $250 K per year with those who make $250 million a year. That way, they protect the super wealthy from tax increases.

Time to go back to multiple indexed tax brackets that keep the wealthy from hiding

You lefties really miss the big picture. Have you never stopped to ask yourself why you argue so hard to give more money to a body that spends so inefficiently?

 

[rightwinger]

I didn't realize you were in favor of a flat tax.

Ohhh wait... you're talking about stealing everything from them. yeah, that's even MORE fair! How about after we rob em blind we shoot em too so they won't tell on us?

No

I'm talking about differentiating between the super rich and the upper middle class. The Republicans succeeded in lumping those who make $250 K per year with those who make $250 million a year. That way, they protect the super wealthy from tax increases.

Time to go back to multiple indexed tax brackets that keep the wealthy from hiding

You lefties really miss the big picture. Have you never stopped to ask yourself why you argue so hard to give more money to a body that spends so inefficiently?

Oh I see what you are talking about...

Instead we should just widen the gap between the working class and the super wealthy.

 

[Bern80]

Oh I see what you are talking about...

Based on your response below, clearly you don't.

Instead we should just widen the gap between the working class and the super wealthy.

So the best way to keep the gap from widening is tax the rich more? What does how much people are taxed have to do with the widening gap? Absolutely NOTHING. You couldn't close the gap by having the poor not pay taxes at all, so you think what is best for society is to take more money from the rich?

 

[rightwinger]

Oh I see what you are talking about...

Based on your response below, clearly you don't.

Instead we should just widen the gap between the working class and the super wealthy.

So the best way to keep the gap from widening is tax the rich more? What does how much people are taxed have to do with the widening gap? Absolutely NOTHING. You couldn't close the gap by having the poor not pay taxes at all, so you think what is best for society is to take more money from the rich?

It all comes down to a complex economic principle called "trickle down" and "Supply side" that we were sold on 30 years ago. We restructured our tax structure to encourage more investment in our economy and a trickle down of wealth

Never happened.........I WANT MY MONEY BACK

 

[georgephillip]

Is insider trader an acceptable part of the game?

No, it's a crime and those who do it should be severely punished. This is done by unscrupulous people regardless of wealth.

How about High Frequency Trading?

That is a new tool that needs to have controls put in to make it managable. the Kilo-drop that occurred earlier this year is a good example of why you have to have safeguards added. Illegal? Criminal? no. It's a tool.

There have been Zero bankers so far who have enjoyed the same fate from a crime that is orders of magnitude larger than the S&L.

Maybe you should ask the regulators in the government tasked with doing the job of regulating the market. If you're not going to enforce the laws, and then nobody obeys them, who's fault is that? If there aren't sane regulations on these markets, why not? What is being done to correct this in a way that is rational and reasoned.

Who should apologize for that?

Who's fault is it first? Who's responsible for oversight? When there are no laws regarding it, there is no crime unfortunately. Morality was divorced from law during the Progressive Clarence Darrow's era.

And if the Federal Reserve is the central hub of insider trading on Wall Street...?

"On August 19, just nine days after the U.S. central bank surprised financial markets by deciding to buy more bonds to support a flagging economy, former Fed governor Larry Meyer sent a note to clients of his consulting firm with a breakdown of the policy-setting meeting.

The minutes from that same gathering of the powerful Federal Open Market Committee, or FOMC, are made available to the public -- but only after a three-week lag.

"So Meyer's clients were provided with a glimpse into what the Fed was thinking well ahead of other investors.

"His note cited the views of 'most members' and 'many members' as he detailed increasingly sharp divisions among the officials who determine the nation's monetary policy.

"The inside scoop, which explained how rising mortgage prepayments had prompted renewed central bank action, was simply too detailed to have come from anywhere but the Fed."

The Ties That Bind

Your point about regulators is another good one.

According to William Black, currently Associate Professor of Economics at the U of Missouri-Kansas City and author of The Best Way to Rob a Bank is to Own One, after 911 many FBI agents searching for evidence of "control fraud" on Wall Street were reassigned to Homeland Security and never replaced.

Even so, scores of regulators and others knew a subprime fiasco was building:

"The FBI knew ('In September 2004, the FBI began publicly warning that there was an "epidemic" of mortgage fraud, and it predicted that it would produce an economic crisis, if it were not dealt with.')

"The FDIC knew. ( In testimony before the Financial Crisis Inquiry Commission, FDIC chairman Sheila Bair confirmed that she not only warned the Fed of what was going on in 2001, but cited particular regulations (HOEPA) under which the Fed could stop the 'unfair, abusive and deceptive practices' by the banks.)

"Also Fitch ratings knew, and even Alan Greenspan's good friend and former Fed governor Ed Gramlich knew."

Finally I don't think it would have made a dimes worth of difference if Al Gore had been in the White House.

Wall Street owns Republicans AND Democrats from Maine to Maui.

The Subprime Conspiracy

 

[georgephillip]

"Who are the top 0,01%? They are the top 10,000 income earners in the United States of America. If you THINK you are in the top 0.01%, you are not. People in the top 10,000 know only KNOW they are in the top 0.01% but they know where they rank as well.

"The median ANNUAL income of a person in the top 0.01% is $50,000,0000. They have $350,000,000 in assets and, since 1978, that is an increase of 550% - how have you done the past 30 years?"

Like Warren Buffett many of these elites pay taxes on capital gains and not on income.

BTW, the REALLY richest Americans (all 400 of them) have an average annual income about equal to the 0.01%ers' asset holdings.

Maybe we should open the next front in the class war at the top quintile of the richest 1%?

America is 234

Maybe we should stop having them pay taxes at the same rate as someone who makes $250K

Isolating the richest of the rich from those earning $250,000 a year makes even more sense if our tax code can be shown to be complicit in the recent Wall Street crime wave.

"Fraudulent lenders produce exceptional short-term ‘profits’ through a four-part strategy: extreme growth (Ponzi), lending to uncreditworthy borrowers, extreme leverage, and minimal loss reserves.

"These exceptional ‘profits’ defeat regulatory restrictions and turn private market discipline perverse. The profits also allow the CEO to convert firm assets for personal benefit through seemingly normal compensation mechanisms.

"The short-term profits cause stock options to appreciate.

"Fraudulent CEOs following this strategy are guaranteed extraordinary income while minimizing risks of detection and prosecution."

"(William K. Black, "Epidemics of'Control Fraud' Lead to Recurrent, Intensifying Bubbles andCrises", University of Missouri at Kansas City - School of Law)"

The "exceptional short-term profits" resulting in multi-million dollar bonuses and the deceptive rules of taxation could never has metastasized to their current dimensions without the complete corruption of both major political parties by Wall Street.

Along with the Fed and Treasury.

The Subprime Conspiracy