Cheney on Meet the Press

Cheney "had better things to do" than serve in the military.

So did Bubba Clinton.

Clinton s Draft Avoidance

Dear Col. Holmes,
I am sorry to be so long in writing. I know I promised to let you hear from me at least once a month, and from now on you will, but I have to have some time to think about this first letter. Almost daily since my return to England I have thought about writing,about what I want to and ought to say.
First, I want to thank you, not only for saving me from the draft, but for being so kind to me last summer, when I was as low as I have ever been. One thing that made the bond we struck in good faith somewhat palatable to me was my high regard for you personally. In retrospect, it seems that the admiration might not have been mutual had you known a little more about me, about my political beliefs and activities. At least you might have thought me more fit for the draft than for ROTC.
Let me try to explain. As you know, I worked in a very minor position on the Senate Foreign Relations Committee. I did it for the experience and the salary but also for the opportunity, however small, of working every day against a war I opposed and despised with a depth of feeling I had reserved solely for racism in America before Vietnam. I did not take the matter lightly but studied it carefully, and there was a time when not many people had more information about Vietnam at hand than I did.
I have written and spoken and marched against the war. One of the national organizers of the Vietnam Moratorium is a close friend of mine. After I left Arkansas last summer, I went to Washington to work in the national headquarters of the Moratorium, then to England to organize the Americans here for demonstrations October 15 and November 16.
Interlocked with the war is the draft issue, which I did not begin to consider separately until early 1968. For a law seminar at Georgetown I wrote a paper on the legal arguments for and against allowing, within the Selective Service System, the classification of selective conscientious objection, for those opposed to participation in a particular war, not simply to "participation in war in any form."
From my work, I came to believe that the draft system itself is illegitimate. No government really rooted in limited, parliamentary democracy should have the power to make its citizens fight and kill and die in a war they may oppose, a war which even possibly may be wrong, a war, which in any case, does not involve immediately the peace and freedom of the nation. The draft was justified in World War II because the life of the people collectively was at stake.
Individuals had to fight, if the nation was to survive, for the lives of their country and their way of life. Vietnam is no such case. Nor was Korea an example where, in my opinion, certain military action was justified but the draft was not, for the reasons stated above.
Because of my opposition to the draft and the war, I am in great sympathy with those who are not willing to fight, kill, and maybe die for their country (i.e. the particular policy of a particular government) right or wrong. Two of my friends at Oxford are conscientious objectors. I wrote a letter of recommendation for one of them to his Mississippi draft board, a letter I am more proud of than anything else I wrote at Oxford last year. One of my roommates is a draft resister who is possibly under indictment and may never be able to go home again. He is one of the bravest, best men I know. His country needs men like him more than they know. That he is considered a criminal is an obscenity.
The decision not to be a resister and the related subsequent decisions were the most difficult of my life. I decided to accept the draft in spite of my beliefs for one reason only, to maintain my political viability within the system. For years I have worked to prepare myself for a political life characterized by both practical political ability and concern for rapid social progress. It is a life I still feel compelled to try to lead. I do not think our system of government is by definition corrupt, however dangerous and inadequate it has been in recent years. (The society may be corrupt, but that is not the same thing, and if that is true we are all
finished anyway.)
When the draft came, despite political convictions, I was having a hard time facing the prospect of fighting a war I had been fighting against, and that is why I contacted you. ROTC was the one way in which I could possibly, but not positively, avoid both Vietnam and the resistance. Going on with my education, even coming back to England, played no part in my decision to join ROTC. I am back here, and would have been at Arkansas Law School because there is nothing else I can do. I would like to have been able to take a year out perhaps to teach in a small college or work on some community action project and in the process to decide whether to attend law school or graduate school and how to begin putting what I have learned to use.
But the particulars of my personal life are not near as important to me as the principles involved. After I signed the ROTC letter of intent I began to wonder whether the compromise I had made with myself was not more objectionable than the draft would have been, because I had no interest in the ROTC program itself and all I seem to have done was to protect myself from physical harm. Also, I had begun to think that I had deceived you, not by lies--there were none--but by failing to tell you all of the things I'm telling you now. I doubt I had the mental coherence to articulate them then.
Page 2.
At that time, after we had made our agreement and you had sent my 1D deferment to my draft board, the anguish and loss of my self regard and self confidence really set in. I hardly slept for weeks and kept going by eating compulsively and reading until exhaustion brought sleep. Finally, on September 12 I stayed up all night writing a letter to the chairman of my draft board, saying basically what is in the preceding paragraph, thanking him for trying to help in a case where he really couldn't, and stating that I couldn't do the ROTC after all and would he please draft me as soon as possible.
I never mailed the letter, but I did carry it with me every day until I got on the plane to return to England. I didn't mail the letter because I didn't see, in the end, how my going in the army and maybe going to Vietnam would achieve anything except a feeling that I had punished myself and gotten what I deserved. So I came back to England to try to make something of the second year of my Rhodes scholarship.
And that is where I am now, writing to you because you have been good to me and have a right to know what I think and feel. I am writing too in the hope that my telling this one story will help you understand more clearly how so many fine people have come to find themselves loving their country but loathing the military, to which you and other good men have devoted years, lifetimes and the best service you could give. To many of us, it is no longer clear what is service and what is dis-service, or if it is clear, the conclusion is likely to be illegal.
Forgive the length of this letter. There was much to say. There is still a lotto be said, but it can wait. Please say hello to Colonel
Jones for me.
Merry Christmas.
Sincerely,
Bill Clinton
December 12, 1969(approximately): Clinton visits Norway where he meets with various "peace" organizations.
December 12 (approx.) - December 31, 1969: ???
Comment: After visiting Norway with Father McSorley, Clinton's movements and activities are unknown until hearrives in Moscow on December 31, 1969.There are a lot of questions as to who Clinton met and where he went during this time period.
December 31, 1969 - January 6, 1970: Clinton travels to Moscow. He later said "relations between our two countries were pretty good then." He then described his visit as "a very friendly time, a good atmosphere."
Despite Clinton's claim that January 1970 was "a time of détente," relations between the United States and the Soviet Union were anything but warm. The Soviets were supplying the North Vietnamese with advisors and anti-aircraft weapons.
September 7, 1992: Col. Eugene Holmes, USA Ret., signs a notarized statement in which he asserts that "there is the imminent danger to our country of a draft dodger becoming Commander-in-Chief of the Armed Forces of the United States." He later writes that "I believe that he (Clinton) purposefully deceived me, using the possibility of joining the ROTC as a ploy to work with the draft board to delay his induction and get a new draft reclassification."

Brief Background on Colonel Holmes
Colonel Eugene Holmes is a highly decorated officer of the United States Army. He is a survivor of the Bataan Death March and three and a half years as a POW of the Japanese. He served 32 years in the army before retiring with 100% disability. His decorations include the Silver Star, 2 Bronze Stars, 2 Legions of Merit, the Army Commendation Medal and many others.
During the Vietnam War, he personally inducted both his sons into the service--one for 3 years as a regular army enlisted man, and the other as a commissioned officer (after he had completed ROTC training).


Col. Homes Notarized Statement

As Entered in Congressional Record (Page: H5551) 7/30/93
September 7, 1992. Memorandum for Record:

Subject: Bill Clinton and the University of Arkansas ROTC Program:
There have been many unanswered questions as to the circumstances surrounding Bill Clinton's involvement with the ROTC department at the University of Arkansas. Prior to this time I have not felt the necessity for discussing the details. The reason I have not done so before is that my poor physical health (a consequence of participation in the Bataan Death March and the subsequent three and a half years interment in Japanese POW camps) has precluded me from getting into what I felt was unnecessary involvement. However, present polls show that there is the imminent danger to our country of a draft dodger becoming Commander-in-Chief of the Armed Forces of the United States. While it is true, as Mr. Clinton has stated, that there were many others who avoided serving their country in the Vietnam war, they are not aspiring to be the President of the United States.
The tremendous implications of the possibility of his becoming Commander-in-Chief of the United States Armed Forces compels me now to comment on the facts concerning Mr. Clinton's evasion of the draft. This account would not have been imperative had Bill Clinton been completely honest with the American public concerning this matter. But as Mr. Clinton replied on a news conference this evening (September 5, 1992) after being asked another particular about his dodging the draft,
"Almost everyone concerned with these incidents are dead. I have no more comments to make". Since I may be the only person living who can give a first hand account of what actually transpired, I am obligated by my love for my country and my sense of duty to divulge what actually happened and make it a matter of record.
Bill Clinton came to see me at my home in 1969 to discuss his desire to enroll in the ROTC program at the University of Arkansas. We engaged in an extensive, approximately two (2) hour interview. At no time during this long conversation about his desire to join the program did he inform me of his involvement, participation and actually organizing protests against the United States involvement in South East Asia. He was shrewd enough to realize that had I been aware of his activities, he would not
have been accepted into the ROTC program as a potential officer in the United States Army.
The next day I began to receive phone calls regarding Bill Clinton's draft status. I was informed by the draft board that it was of interest to Senator Fullbright's office that Bill Clinton, a Rhodes Scholar, should be admitted to the ROTC program. I received several such calls. The general message conveyed by the draft board to me was that Senator Fullbright's office was putting pressure on them and that they needed my help. I then made the necessary arrangements to enroll Mr. Clinton into the ROTC
program at the University of Arkansas.
I was not "saving" him from serving his country, as he erroneously thanked me for in his letter from England (dated December 3,1969). I was making it possible for a Rhodes Scholar to serve in the military as an officer. In retrospect I see that Mr. Clinton had no intention of following through with his agreement to join the Army ROTC program at the University of Arkansas or to attend the University of Arkansas Law School. I had explained to him the necessity of enrolling at the University of Arkansas as a student in order to be eligible to take the ROTC program at the University. He never enrolled at the University of Arkansas, but instead enrolled at Yale after attending Oxford. I believe that he purposely deceived me, using the possibility of joining the
ROTC as a ploy to work with the draft board to delay his induction and get a new draft classification.
The December 3rd letter written to me by Mr. Clinton, and subsequently taken from the files by Lt. Col. Clint Jones, my executive officer, was placed into the ROTC files so that a record would be available in case the applicant should again petition to enter the ROTC program. The information in that letter alone would have restricted Bill Clinton from ever qualifying to be an officer in the United States Military. Even more significant was his lack of veracity in purposefully defrauding the military by deceiving me, both in concealing his anti-military activities overseas and his counterfeit intentions for later military service. These actions cause me to question both his patriotism and his integrity. When I consider the caliber, the bravery, and the patriotism of the fine young soldiers whose deaths I have witnessed, and others whose funerals I have attended.... When I reflect on not only the willingness but eagerness that so many of them displayed in their earnest desire to defend and serve their country, it is untenable and incomprehensible to me that a man who was not merely unwilling to serve his country, but actually protested against its military, should ever be in the position of Commander-in-Chief of our armed Forces.
I write this declaration not only for the living and future generations, but for those who fought and died for our country. If space and time permitted I would include the names of the ones I knew and fought with, and along with them I would mention my brother Bob, who was killed during World War II and is buried in Cambridge, England (at the age of 23, about the age Bill Clinton was when he was over in England protesting the war). I have agonized over whether or not to submit this statement to the American people. But, I realize that even though I served my country by being in the military for over 32 years, and having gone through the ordeal of months of combat under the worst of conditions followed by years of imprisonment by the Japanese,it is not enough. I'm writing these comments to let everyone know that I love my country more than I do my own personal security and well-being. I will go to my grave loving these United States of America and the liberty for which so many men have
fought and died. Because of my poor physical condition this will be my final statement. I will make no further comments to any of the media regarding this issue.
Eugene Holmes
Colonel, U.S.A., Ret.
September 1992

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Holy shit, you could have just posted the Clinton was a drsft dodger like Cheney. I'm pretty sure all of us was aware of that fact.
There is a difference, Clinton didn't invade any countries where thousands of Americans died or were physically or mentally maimed for life.

You're very concerned about the soldiers, huh.
 
Damn right I was concerned about our troops.
These troops had to put up with a body/vehicle armor shortages and troops shortages. Over 3,000 troops died while we didn't have enough troops, until they finally used a troops surge to get a firm control in Iraq. We never invaded with enough troops to secure the country or munition dumps. The result was the munition dumps left unguarded which resulted in many IED troops deaths from material stolen from munition dumps. It took four years for Bush/Cheney to admit we didn't have enough troops and they finally had the troop surge.
What were they thinking? Our troops were put in unneeded danger with shortage of troops and body/vehicle armor. Who wasn't that concerned about the troops?
 
Cheney "had better things to do" than serve in the military.

So did Bubba Clinton.

Clinton s Draft Avoidance

Dear Col. Holmes,
I am sorry to be so long in writing. I know I promised to let you hear from me at least once a month, and from now on you will, but I have to have some time to think about this first letter. Almost daily since my return to England I have thought about writing,about what I want to and ought to say.
First, I want to thank you, not only for saving me from the draft, but for being so kind to me last summer, when I was as low as I have ever been. One thing that made the bond we struck in good faith somewhat palatable to me was my high regard for you personally. In retrospect, it seems that the admiration might not have been mutual had you known a little more about me, about my political beliefs and activities. At least you might have thought me more fit for the draft than for ROTC.
Let me try to explain. As you know, I worked in a very minor position on the Senate Foreign Relations Committee. I did it for the experience and the salary but also for the opportunity, however small, of working every day against a war I opposed and despised with a depth of feeling I had reserved solely for racism in America before Vietnam. I did not take the matter lightly but studied it carefully, and there was a time when not many people had more information about Vietnam at hand than I did.
I have written and spoken and marched against the war. One of the national organizers of the Vietnam Moratorium is a close friend of mine. After I left Arkansas last summer, I went to Washington to work in the national headquarters of the Moratorium, then to England to organize the Americans here for demonstrations October 15 and November 16.
Interlocked with the war is the draft issue, which I did not begin to consider separately until early 1968. For a law seminar at Georgetown I wrote a paper on the legal arguments for and against allowing, within the Selective Service System, the classification of selective conscientious objection, for those opposed to participation in a particular war, not simply to "participation in war in any form."
From my work, I came to believe that the draft system itself is illegitimate. No government really rooted in limited, parliamentary democracy should have the power to make its citizens fight and kill and die in a war they may oppose, a war which even possibly may be wrong, a war, which in any case, does not involve immediately the peace and freedom of the nation. The draft was justified in World War II because the life of the people collectively was at stake.
Individuals had to fight, if the nation was to survive, for the lives of their country and their way of life. Vietnam is no such case. Nor was Korea an example where, in my opinion, certain military action was justified but the draft was not, for the reasons stated above.
Because of my opposition to the draft and the war, I am in great sympathy with those who are not willing to fight, kill, and maybe die for their country (i.e. the particular policy of a particular government) right or wrong. Two of my friends at Oxford are conscientious objectors. I wrote a letter of recommendation for one of them to his Mississippi draft board, a letter I am more proud of than anything else I wrote at Oxford last year. One of my roommates is a draft resister who is possibly under indictment and may never be able to go home again. He is one of the bravest, best men I know. His country needs men like him more than they know. That he is considered a criminal is an obscenity.
The decision not to be a resister and the related subsequent decisions were the most difficult of my life. I decided to accept the draft in spite of my beliefs for one reason only, to maintain my political viability within the system. For years I have worked to prepare myself for a political life characterized by both practical political ability and concern for rapid social progress. It is a life I still feel compelled to try to lead. I do not think our system of government is by definition corrupt, however dangerous and inadequate it has been in recent years. (The society may be corrupt, but that is not the same thing, and if that is true we are all
finished anyway.)
When the draft came, despite political convictions, I was having a hard time facing the prospect of fighting a war I had been fighting against, and that is why I contacted you. ROTC was the one way in which I could possibly, but not positively, avoid both Vietnam and the resistance. Going on with my education, even coming back to England, played no part in my decision to join ROTC. I am back here, and would have been at Arkansas Law School because there is nothing else I can do. I would like to have been able to take a year out perhaps to teach in a small college or work on some community action project and in the process to decide whether to attend law school or graduate school and how to begin putting what I have learned to use.
But the particulars of my personal life are not near as important to me as the principles involved. After I signed the ROTC letter of intent I began to wonder whether the compromise I had made with myself was not more objectionable than the draft would have been, because I had no interest in the ROTC program itself and all I seem to have done was to protect myself from physical harm. Also, I had begun to think that I had deceived you, not by lies--there were none--but by failing to tell you all of the things I'm telling you now. I doubt I had the mental coherence to articulate them then.
Page 2.
At that time, after we had made our agreement and you had sent my 1D deferment to my draft board, the anguish and loss of my self regard and self confidence really set in. I hardly slept for weeks and kept going by eating compulsively and reading until exhaustion brought sleep. Finally, on September 12 I stayed up all night writing a letter to the chairman of my draft board, saying basically what is in the preceding paragraph, thanking him for trying to help in a case where he really couldn't, and stating that I couldn't do the ROTC after all and would he please draft me as soon as possible.
I never mailed the letter, but I did carry it with me every day until I got on the plane to return to England. I didn't mail the letter because I didn't see, in the end, how my going in the army and maybe going to Vietnam would achieve anything except a feeling that I had punished myself and gotten what I deserved. So I came back to England to try to make something of the second year of my Rhodes scholarship.
And that is where I am now, writing to you because you have been good to me and have a right to know what I think and feel. I am writing too in the hope that my telling this one story will help you understand more clearly how so many fine people have come to find themselves loving their country but loathing the military, to which you and other good men have devoted years, lifetimes and the best service you could give. To many of us, it is no longer clear what is service and what is dis-service, or if it is clear, the conclusion is likely to be illegal.
Forgive the length of this letter. There was much to say. There is still a lotto be said, but it can wait. Please say hello to Colonel
Jones for me.
Merry Christmas.
Sincerely,
Bill Clinton
December 12, 1969(approximately): Clinton visits Norway where he meets with various "peace" organizations.
December 12 (approx.) - December 31, 1969: ???
Comment: After visiting Norway with Father McSorley, Clinton's movements and activities are unknown until hearrives in Moscow on December 31, 1969.There are a lot of questions as to who Clinton met and where he went during this time period.
December 31, 1969 - January 6, 1970: Clinton travels to Moscow. He later said "relations between our two countries were pretty good then." He then described his visit as "a very friendly time, a good atmosphere."
Despite Clinton's claim that January 1970 was "a time of détente," relations between the United States and the Soviet Union were anything but warm. The Soviets were supplying the North Vietnamese with advisors and anti-aircraft weapons.
September 7, 1992: Col. Eugene Holmes, USA Ret., signs a notarized statement in which he asserts that "there is the imminent danger to our country of a draft dodger becoming Commander-in-Chief of the Armed Forces of the United States." He later writes that "I believe that he (Clinton) purposefully deceived me, using the possibility of joining the ROTC as a ploy to work with the draft board to delay his induction and get a new draft reclassification."

Brief Background on Colonel Holmes
Colonel Eugene Holmes is a highly decorated officer of the United States Army. He is a survivor of the Bataan Death March and three and a half years as a POW of the Japanese. He served 32 years in the army before retiring with 100% disability. His decorations include the Silver Star, 2 Bronze Stars, 2 Legions of Merit, the Army Commendation Medal and many others.
During the Vietnam War, he personally inducted both his sons into the service--one for 3 years as a regular army enlisted man, and the other as a commissioned officer (after he had completed ROTC training).


Col. Homes Notarized Statement

As Entered in Congressional Record (Page: H5551) 7/30/93
September 7, 1992. Memorandum for Record:

Subject: Bill Clinton and the University of Arkansas ROTC Program:
There have been many unanswered questions as to the circumstances surrounding Bill Clinton's involvement with the ROTC department at the University of Arkansas. Prior to this time I have not felt the necessity for discussing the details. The reason I have not done so before is that my poor physical health (a consequence of participation in the Bataan Death March and the subsequent three and a half years interment in Japanese POW camps) has precluded me from getting into what I felt was unnecessary involvement. However, present polls show that there is the imminent danger to our country of a draft dodger becoming Commander-in-Chief of the Armed Forces of the United States. While it is true, as Mr. Clinton has stated, that there were many others who avoided serving their country in the Vietnam war, they are not aspiring to be the President of the United States.
The tremendous implications of the possibility of his becoming Commander-in-Chief of the United States Armed Forces compels me now to comment on the facts concerning Mr. Clinton's evasion of the draft. This account would not have been imperative had Bill Clinton been completely honest with the American public concerning this matter. But as Mr. Clinton replied on a news conference this evening (September 5, 1992) after being asked another particular about his dodging the draft,
"Almost everyone concerned with these incidents are dead. I have no more comments to make". Since I may be the only person living who can give a first hand account of what actually transpired, I am obligated by my love for my country and my sense of duty to divulge what actually happened and make it a matter of record.
Bill Clinton came to see me at my home in 1969 to discuss his desire to enroll in the ROTC program at the University of Arkansas. We engaged in an extensive, approximately two (2) hour interview. At no time during this long conversation about his desire to join the program did he inform me of his involvement, participation and actually organizing protests against the United States involvement in South East Asia. He was shrewd enough to realize that had I been aware of his activities, he would not
have been accepted into the ROTC program as a potential officer in the United States Army.
The next day I began to receive phone calls regarding Bill Clinton's draft status. I was informed by the draft board that it was of interest to Senator Fullbright's office that Bill Clinton, a Rhodes Scholar, should be admitted to the ROTC program. I received several such calls. The general message conveyed by the draft board to me was that Senator Fullbright's office was putting pressure on them and that they needed my help. I then made the necessary arrangements to enroll Mr. Clinton into the ROTC
program at the University of Arkansas.
I was not "saving" him from serving his country, as he erroneously thanked me for in his letter from England (dated December 3,1969). I was making it possible for a Rhodes Scholar to serve in the military as an officer. In retrospect I see that Mr. Clinton had no intention of following through with his agreement to join the Army ROTC program at the University of Arkansas or to attend the University of Arkansas Law School. I had explained to him the necessity of enrolling at the University of Arkansas as a student in order to be eligible to take the ROTC program at the University. He never enrolled at the University of Arkansas, but instead enrolled at Yale after attending Oxford. I believe that he purposely deceived me, using the possibility of joining the
ROTC as a ploy to work with the draft board to delay his induction and get a new draft classification.
The December 3rd letter written to me by Mr. Clinton, and subsequently taken from the files by Lt. Col. Clint Jones, my executive officer, was placed into the ROTC files so that a record would be available in case the applicant should again petition to enter the ROTC program. The information in that letter alone would have restricted Bill Clinton from ever qualifying to be an officer in the United States Military. Even more significant was his lack of veracity in purposefully defrauding the military by deceiving me, both in concealing his anti-military activities overseas and his counterfeit intentions for later military service. These actions cause me to question both his patriotism and his integrity. When I consider the caliber, the bravery, and the patriotism of the fine young soldiers whose deaths I have witnessed, and others whose funerals I have attended.... When I reflect on not only the willingness but eagerness that so many of them displayed in their earnest desire to defend and serve their country, it is untenable and incomprehensible to me that a man who was not merely unwilling to serve his country, but actually protested against its military, should ever be in the position of Commander-in-Chief of our armed Forces.
I write this declaration not only for the living and future generations, but for those who fought and died for our country. If space and time permitted I would include the names of the ones I knew and fought with, and along with them I would mention my brother Bob, who was killed during World War II and is buried in Cambridge, England (at the age of 23, about the age Bill Clinton was when he was over in England protesting the war). I have agonized over whether or not to submit this statement to the American people. But, I realize that even though I served my country by being in the military for over 32 years, and having gone through the ordeal of months of combat under the worst of conditions followed by years of imprisonment by the Japanese,it is not enough. I'm writing these comments to let everyone know that I love my country more than I do my own personal security and well-being. I will go to my grave loving these United States of America and the liberty for which so many men have
fought and died. Because of my poor physical condition this will be my final statement. I will make no further comments to any of the media regarding this issue.
Eugene Holmes
Colonel, U.S.A., Ret.
September 1992

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Holy shit, you could have just posted the Clinton was a drsft dodger like Cheney. I'm pretty sure all of us was aware of that fact.
There is a difference, Clinton didn't invade any countries where thousands of Americans died or were physically or mentally maimed for life.

You're very concerned about the soldiers, huh.

G
Poor things have nothing to crow about so they throw tomatoes at Patriots. Boo Hoo.

Why would New England fans throw tomatoes at the patriots? They whipped Miami 41-13?
Your comment is off topic and belongs in the Sports area..

Go fuck yourself.

Whoa! We have a genius in our mix. :disbelief:
 
Damn right I was concerned about our troops.
These troops had to put up with a body/vehicle armor shortages and troops shortages. Over 3,000 troops died while we didn't have enough troops, until they finally used a troops surge to get a firm control in Iraq. We never invaded with enough troops to secure the country or munition dumps. The result was the munition dumps left unguarded which resulted in many IED troops deaths from material stolen from munition dumps. It took four years for Bush/Cheney to admit we didn't have enough troops and they finally had the troop surge.
What were they thinking? Our troops were put in unneeded danger with shortage of troops and body/vehicle armor. Who wasn't that concerned about the troops?

We adapted. There have been far more casualties in Afghanistan under Obama than Bush. Are you concerned about that?
 
Cheney "had better things to do" than serve in the military.

So did Bubba Clinton.

Clinton s Draft Avoidance

Dear Col. Holmes,
I am sorry to be so long in writing. I know I promised to let you hear from me at least once a month, and from now on you will, but I have to have some time to think about this first letter. Almost daily since my return to England I have thought about writing,about what I want to and ought to say.
First, I want to thank you, not only for saving me from the draft, but for being so kind to me last summer, when I was as low as I have ever been. One thing that made the bond we struck in good faith somewhat palatable to me was my high regard for you personally. In retrospect, it seems that the admiration might not have been mutual had you known a little more about me, about my political beliefs and activities. At least you might have thought me more fit for the draft than for ROTC.
Let me try to explain. As you know, I worked in a very minor position on the Senate Foreign Relations Committee. I did it for the experience and the salary but also for the opportunity, however small, of working every day against a war I opposed and despised with a depth of feeling I had reserved solely for racism in America before Vietnam. I did not take the matter lightly but studied it carefully, and there was a time when not many people had more information about Vietnam at hand than I did.
I have written and spoken and marched against the war. One of the national organizers of the Vietnam Moratorium is a close friend of mine. After I left Arkansas last summer, I went to Washington to work in the national headquarters of the Moratorium, then to England to organize the Americans here for demonstrations October 15 and November 16.
Interlocked with the war is the draft issue, which I did not begin to consider separately until early 1968. For a law seminar at Georgetown I wrote a paper on the legal arguments for and against allowing, within the Selective Service System, the classification of selective conscientious objection, for those opposed to participation in a particular war, not simply to "participation in war in any form."
From my work, I came to believe that the draft system itself is illegitimate. No government really rooted in limited, parliamentary democracy should have the power to make its citizens fight and kill and die in a war they may oppose, a war which even possibly may be wrong, a war, which in any case, does not involve immediately the peace and freedom of the nation. The draft was justified in World War II because the life of the people collectively was at stake.
Individuals had to fight, if the nation was to survive, for the lives of their country and their way of life. Vietnam is no such case. Nor was Korea an example where, in my opinion, certain military action was justified but the draft was not, for the reasons stated above.
Because of my opposition to the draft and the war, I am in great sympathy with those who are not willing to fight, kill, and maybe die for their country (i.e. the particular policy of a particular government) right or wrong. Two of my friends at Oxford are conscientious objectors. I wrote a letter of recommendation for one of them to his Mississippi draft board, a letter I am more proud of than anything else I wrote at Oxford last year. One of my roommates is a draft resister who is possibly under indictment and may never be able to go home again. He is one of the bravest, best men I know. His country needs men like him more than they know. That he is considered a criminal is an obscenity.
The decision not to be a resister and the related subsequent decisions were the most difficult of my life. I decided to accept the draft in spite of my beliefs for one reason only, to maintain my political viability within the system. For years I have worked to prepare myself for a political life characterized by both practical political ability and concern for rapid social progress. It is a life I still feel compelled to try to lead. I do not think our system of government is by definition corrupt, however dangerous and inadequate it has been in recent years. (The society may be corrupt, but that is not the same thing, and if that is true we are all
finished anyway.)
When the draft came, despite political convictions, I was having a hard time facing the prospect of fighting a war I had been fighting against, and that is why I contacted you. ROTC was the one way in which I could possibly, but not positively, avoid both Vietnam and the resistance. Going on with my education, even coming back to England, played no part in my decision to join ROTC. I am back here, and would have been at Arkansas Law School because there is nothing else I can do. I would like to have been able to take a year out perhaps to teach in a small college or work on some community action project and in the process to decide whether to attend law school or graduate school and how to begin putting what I have learned to use.
But the particulars of my personal life are not near as important to me as the principles involved. After I signed the ROTC letter of intent I began to wonder whether the compromise I had made with myself was not more objectionable than the draft would have been, because I had no interest in the ROTC program itself and all I seem to have done was to protect myself from physical harm. Also, I had begun to think that I had deceived you, not by lies--there were none--but by failing to tell you all of the things I'm telling you now. I doubt I had the mental coherence to articulate them then.
Page 2.
At that time, after we had made our agreement and you had sent my 1D deferment to my draft board, the anguish and loss of my self regard and self confidence really set in. I hardly slept for weeks and kept going by eating compulsively and reading until exhaustion brought sleep. Finally, on September 12 I stayed up all night writing a letter to the chairman of my draft board, saying basically what is in the preceding paragraph, thanking him for trying to help in a case where he really couldn't, and stating that I couldn't do the ROTC after all and would he please draft me as soon as possible.
I never mailed the letter, but I did carry it with me every day until I got on the plane to return to England. I didn't mail the letter because I didn't see, in the end, how my going in the army and maybe going to Vietnam would achieve anything except a feeling that I had punished myself and gotten what I deserved. So I came back to England to try to make something of the second year of my Rhodes scholarship.
And that is where I am now, writing to you because you have been good to me and have a right to know what I think and feel. I am writing too in the hope that my telling this one story will help you understand more clearly how so many fine people have come to find themselves loving their country but loathing the military, to which you and other good men have devoted years, lifetimes and the best service you could give. To many of us, it is no longer clear what is service and what is dis-service, or if it is clear, the conclusion is likely to be illegal.
Forgive the length of this letter. There was much to say. There is still a lotto be said, but it can wait. Please say hello to Colonel
Jones for me.
Merry Christmas.
Sincerely,
Bill Clinton
December 12, 1969(approximately): Clinton visits Norway where he meets with various "peace" organizations.
December 12 (approx.) - December 31, 1969: ???
Comment: After visiting Norway with Father McSorley, Clinton's movements and activities are unknown until hearrives in Moscow on December 31, 1969.There are a lot of questions as to who Clinton met and where he went during this time period.
December 31, 1969 - January 6, 1970: Clinton travels to Moscow. He later said "relations between our two countries were pretty good then." He then described his visit as "a very friendly time, a good atmosphere."
Despite Clinton's claim that January 1970 was "a time of détente," relations between the United States and the Soviet Union were anything but warm. The Soviets were supplying the North Vietnamese with advisors and anti-aircraft weapons.
September 7, 1992: Col. Eugene Holmes, USA Ret., signs a notarized statement in which he asserts that "there is the imminent danger to our country of a draft dodger becoming Commander-in-Chief of the Armed Forces of the United States." He later writes that "I believe that he (Clinton) purposefully deceived me, using the possibility of joining the ROTC as a ploy to work with the draft board to delay his induction and get a new draft reclassification."

Brief Background on Colonel Holmes
Colonel Eugene Holmes is a highly decorated officer of the United States Army. He is a survivor of the Bataan Death March and three and a half years as a POW of the Japanese. He served 32 years in the army before retiring with 100% disability. His decorations include the Silver Star, 2 Bronze Stars, 2 Legions of Merit, the Army Commendation Medal and many others.
During the Vietnam War, he personally inducted both his sons into the service--one for 3 years as a regular army enlisted man, and the other as a commissioned officer (after he had completed ROTC training).


Col. Homes Notarized Statement

As Entered in Congressional Record (Page: H5551) 7/30/93
September 7, 1992. Memorandum for Record:

Subject: Bill Clinton and the University of Arkansas ROTC Program:
There have been many unanswered questions as to the circumstances surrounding Bill Clinton's involvement with the ROTC department at the University of Arkansas. Prior to this time I have not felt the necessity for discussing the details. The reason I have not done so before is that my poor physical health (a consequence of participation in the Bataan Death March and the subsequent three and a half years interment in Japanese POW camps) has precluded me from getting into what I felt was unnecessary involvement. However, present polls show that there is the imminent danger to our country of a draft dodger becoming Commander-in-Chief of the Armed Forces of the United States. While it is true, as Mr. Clinton has stated, that there were many others who avoided serving their country in the Vietnam war, they are not aspiring to be the President of the United States.
The tremendous implications of the possibility of his becoming Commander-in-Chief of the United States Armed Forces compels me now to comment on the facts concerning Mr. Clinton's evasion of the draft. This account would not have been imperative had Bill Clinton been completely honest with the American public concerning this matter. But as Mr. Clinton replied on a news conference this evening (September 5, 1992) after being asked another particular about his dodging the draft,
"Almost everyone concerned with these incidents are dead. I have no more comments to make". Since I may be the only person living who can give a first hand account of what actually transpired, I am obligated by my love for my country and my sense of duty to divulge what actually happened and make it a matter of record.
Bill Clinton came to see me at my home in 1969 to discuss his desire to enroll in the ROTC program at the University of Arkansas. We engaged in an extensive, approximately two (2) hour interview. At no time during this long conversation about his desire to join the program did he inform me of his involvement, participation and actually organizing protests against the United States involvement in South East Asia. He was shrewd enough to realize that had I been aware of his activities, he would not
have been accepted into the ROTC program as a potential officer in the United States Army.
The next day I began to receive phone calls regarding Bill Clinton's draft status. I was informed by the draft board that it was of interest to Senator Fullbright's office that Bill Clinton, a Rhodes Scholar, should be admitted to the ROTC program. I received several such calls. The general message conveyed by the draft board to me was that Senator Fullbright's office was putting pressure on them and that they needed my help. I then made the necessary arrangements to enroll Mr. Clinton into the ROTC
program at the University of Arkansas.
I was not "saving" him from serving his country, as he erroneously thanked me for in his letter from England (dated December 3,1969). I was making it possible for a Rhodes Scholar to serve in the military as an officer. In retrospect I see that Mr. Clinton had no intention of following through with his agreement to join the Army ROTC program at the University of Arkansas or to attend the University of Arkansas Law School. I had explained to him the necessity of enrolling at the University of Arkansas as a student in order to be eligible to take the ROTC program at the University. He never enrolled at the University of Arkansas, but instead enrolled at Yale after attending Oxford. I believe that he purposely deceived me, using the possibility of joining the
ROTC as a ploy to work with the draft board to delay his induction and get a new draft classification.
The December 3rd letter written to me by Mr. Clinton, and subsequently taken from the files by Lt. Col. Clint Jones, my executive officer, was placed into the ROTC files so that a record would be available in case the applicant should again petition to enter the ROTC program. The information in that letter alone would have restricted Bill Clinton from ever qualifying to be an officer in the United States Military. Even more significant was his lack of veracity in purposefully defrauding the military by deceiving me, both in concealing his anti-military activities overseas and his counterfeit intentions for later military service. These actions cause me to question both his patriotism and his integrity. When I consider the caliber, the bravery, and the patriotism of the fine young soldiers whose deaths I have witnessed, and others whose funerals I have attended.... When I reflect on not only the willingness but eagerness that so many of them displayed in their earnest desire to defend and serve their country, it is untenable and incomprehensible to me that a man who was not merely unwilling to serve his country, but actually protested against its military, should ever be in the position of Commander-in-Chief of our armed Forces.
I write this declaration not only for the living and future generations, but for those who fought and died for our country. If space and time permitted I would include the names of the ones I knew and fought with, and along with them I would mention my brother Bob, who was killed during World War II and is buried in Cambridge, England (at the age of 23, about the age Bill Clinton was when he was over in England protesting the war). I have agonized over whether or not to submit this statement to the American people. But, I realize that even though I served my country by being in the military for over 32 years, and having gone through the ordeal of months of combat under the worst of conditions followed by years of imprisonment by the Japanese,it is not enough. I'm writing these comments to let everyone know that I love my country more than I do my own personal security and well-being. I will go to my grave loving these United States of America and the liberty for which so many men have
fought and died. Because of my poor physical condition this will be my final statement. I will make no further comments to any of the media regarding this issue.
Eugene Holmes
Colonel, U.S.A., Ret.
September 1992

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Holy shit, you could have just posted the Clinton was a drsft dodger like Cheney. I'm pretty sure all of us was aware of that fact.
There is a difference, Clinton didn't invade any countries where thousands of Americans died or were physically or mentally maimed for life.

You're very concerned about the soldiers, huh.

G
Poor things have nothing to crow about so they throw tomatoes at Patriots. Boo Hoo.

Why would New England fans throw tomatoes at the patriots? They whipped Miami 41-13?
Your comment is off topic and belongs in the Sports area..

Go fuck yourself.

Whoa! We have a genius in our mix. :disbelief:

Comparatively, yes.
 
Damn right I was concerned about our troops.
These troops had to put up with a body/vehicle armor shortages and troops shortages. Over 3,000 troops died while we didn't have enough troops, until they finally used a troops surge to get a firm control in Iraq. We never invaded with enough troops to secure the country or munition dumps. The result was the munition dumps left unguarded which resulted in many IED troops deaths from material stolen from munition dumps. It took four years for Bush/Cheney to admit we didn't have enough troops and they finally had the troop surge.
What were they thinking? Our troops were put in unneeded danger with shortage of troops and body/vehicle armor. Who wasn't that concerned about the troops?

We adapted. There have been far more casualties in Afghanistan under Obama than Bush. Are you concerned about that?
Nonsense.

Iraq/Afghanistan are now and will forever be Bush/Cheney's failed, illegal wars, regardless the current administration; where every death as a consequence of those failed, illegal wars are solely the responsibility of Bush/Cheney.
 
Damn right I was concerned about our troops.
These troops had to put up with a body/vehicle armor shortages and troops shortages. Over 3,000 troops died while we didn't have enough troops, until they finally used a troops surge to get a firm control in Iraq. We never invaded with enough troops to secure the country or munition dumps. The result was the munition dumps left unguarded which resulted in many IED troops deaths from material stolen from munition dumps. It took four years for Bush/Cheney to admit we didn't have enough troops and they finally had the troop surge.
What were they thinking? Our troops were put in unneeded danger with shortage of troops and body/vehicle armor. Who wasn't that concerned about the troops?

We adapted. There have been far more casualties in Afghanistan under Obama than Bush. Are you concerned about that?
Nonsense.

Iraq/Afghanistan are now and will forever be Bush/Cheney's failed, illegal wars, regardless the current administration; where every death as a consequence of those failed, illegal wars are solely the responsibility of Bush/Cheney.

Funny stuff.. Who says Afghanistan is an "illegal war"?
 
Damn right I was concerned about our troops.
These troops had to put up with a body/vehicle armor shortages and troops shortages. Over 3,000 troops died while we didn't have enough troops, until they finally used a troops surge to get a firm control in Iraq. We never invaded with enough troops to secure the country or munition dumps. The result was the munition dumps left unguarded which resulted in many IED troops deaths from material stolen from munition dumps. It took four years for Bush/Cheney to admit we didn't have enough troops and they finally had the troop surge.
What were they thinking? Our troops were put in unneeded danger with shortage of troops and body/vehicle armor. Who wasn't that concerned about the troops?

We adapted. There have been far more casualties in Afghanistan under Obama than Bush. Are you concerned about that?

We adapted. Most of the military expressed the need for more troops before the invasion to secure the country. But no, the administration rejected the calls for more troops. And we adapted four years later after thousands of troop deaths and permanently ruined lives. And the whole scenario is OK because we adapted. Sorry, that pisses me off.
I our neighbors lost their son, while we were waiting to adapt. A co-worker lost a limb, while we were waiting to adapt.
Afghanistan. I agree we have lost too many troops there. We should have gone in there, taken care of business and left. What foreign invader has ever conquered Afghanistan? Of course, prior to invading Iraq most of all our resources and intelligence were diverted away from Afghanistan and towards Iraq. Afghanistan became the forgotten war, until we left Iraq.
Next time you want to ask me if I'm concerned about our troops, maybe you should ask that question yourself.
Your answer to my post "We adapted. There have been far more casualties in Afghanistan under Obama than Bush" That showed no remorse for the lost troops in Iraq or Afghanistan, all you care about is a casualty pissing contest and of course "we adapted".
What's wrong with you! My God, we are talking about human lives!
 
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Damn right I was concerned about our troops.
These troops had to put up with a body/vehicle armor shortages and troops shortages. Over 3,000 troops died while we didn't have enough troops, until they finally used a troops surge to get a firm control in Iraq. We never invaded with enough troops to secure the country or munition dumps. The result was the munition dumps left unguarded which resulted in many IED troops deaths from material stolen from munition dumps. It took four years for Bush/Cheney to admit we didn't have enough troops and they finally had the troop surge.
What were they thinking? Our troops were put in unneeded danger with shortage of troops and body/vehicle armor. Who wasn't that concerned about the troops?

We adapted. There have been far more casualties in Afghanistan under Obama than Bush. Are you concerned about that?

We adapted. Most of the military expressed the need for more troops before the invasion to secure the country. But no, the administration rejected the calls for more troops. And we adapted four years later after thousands of troop deaths and permanently ruined lives. And the whole scenario is OK because we adapted. Sorry, that pisses me off.
I our neighbors lost their son, while we were waiting to adapt. A co-worker lost a limb, while we were waiting to adapt.
Afghanistan. I agree we have lost too many troops there. We should have gone in there, taken care of business and left. What foreign invader has ever conquered Afghanistan? Of course, prior to invading Iraq most of all our resources and intelligence were diverted away from Afghanistan and towards Iraq. Afghanistan became the forgotten war, until we left Iraq.
Next time you want to ask me if I'm concerned about our troops, maybe you should ask that question yourself.
You're answer to my post "We adapted. There have been far more casualties in Afghanistan under Obama than Bush" That showed no remorse for the lost troops in Iraq or Afghanistan, all you care about is a casualty pissing contest and of course "we adapted".
What's wrong with you! By God, we are talking about human lives!

Yep. What about over twice the numbe
Damn right I was concerned about our troops.
These troops had to put up with a body/vehicle armor shortages and troops shortages. Over 3,000 troops died while we didn't have enough troops, until they finally used a troops surge to get a firm control in Iraq. We never invaded with enough troops to secure the country or munition dumps. The result was the munition dumps left unguarded which resulted in many IED troops deaths from material stolen from munition dumps. It took four years for Bush/Cheney to admit we didn't have enough troops and they finally had the troop surge.
What were they thinking? Our troops were put in unneeded danger with shortage of troops and body/vehicle armor. Who wasn't that concerned about the troops?

We adapted. There have been far more casualties in Afghanistan under Obama than Bush. Are you concerned about that?

We adapted. Most of the military expressed the need for more troops before the invasion to secure the country. But no, the administration rejected the calls for more troops. And we adapted four years later after thousands of troop deaths and permanently ruined lives. And the whole scenario is OK because we adapted. Sorry, that pisses me off.
I our neighbors lost their son, while we were waiting to adapt. A co-worker lost a limb, while we were waiting to adapt.
Afghanistan. I agree we have lost too many troops there. We should have gone in there, taken care of business and left. What foreign invader has ever conquered Afghanistan? Of course, prior to invading Iraq most of all our resources and intelligence were diverted away from Afghanistan and towards Iraq. Afghanistan became the forgotten war, until we left Iraq.
Next time you want to ask me if I'm concerned about our troops, maybe you should ask that question yourself.
You're answer to my post "We adapted. There have been far more casualties in Afghanistan under Obama than Bush" That showed no remorse for the lost troops in Iraq or Afghanistan, all you care about is a casualty pissing contest and of course "we adapted".
What's wrong with you! By God, we are talking about human lives!

Correction. You meant to say you only care about the human lives lost under Bush, but not Obama.
 
You know Neil, you're one sick individual.
I voted for Bush in 2000 but not in 2004. I voted for Obama in 2008 but not in 2012.
I don't base my morals, thought process or my life on one party/ideology. I leave that for the intellectually lazy.
So, to answer your question. I care as much about lives lost/lives ruined by any president. I'll leave the total lack of respecting the value of humans lives to people like you. That's what you've been all about on this thread.
Like I said, you are sick.
 
I caught Dick Cheney on Meet the Press this morning - anyone else look in on that?

I had almost forgotten how much of an asshole Dick Cheney is. We got to listen once again to his disingenuous account of how the CIA torturing of prisoners was not torture and how the current Report on Torture is worthless, because it is a "partisan attack." Facts are not partisan, Dick.

Honestly - how could anyone like this evil person? How could he ever have gained the power that he did in this country? I laughed out loud when he had to resort to the "now you're asking a hypothetical question" in order to dodge having to answer it - oldest trick in the books.

Drop our of the public eye, Cheney. Just go away somewhere, occupy yourself with destroying ants with a magnifying glass and shut the fuck up. This is a civilized county - your are not welcome here.
When you only get HALF the facts because you don't actually interview half the people that were actually involved it is very much a partisan report.

You're either ignorant of that fact or you yourself are partisan.
 
Damn right I was concerned about our troops.
These troops had to put up with a body/vehicle armor shortages and troops shortages. Over 3,000 troops died while we didn't have enough troops, until they finally used a troops surge to get a firm control in Iraq. We never invaded with enough troops to secure the country or munition dumps. The result was the munition dumps left unguarded which resulted in many IED troops deaths from material stolen from munition dumps. It took four years for Bush/Cheney to admit we didn't have enough troops and they finally had the troop surge.
What were they thinking? Our troops were put in unneeded danger with shortage of troops and body/vehicle armor. Who wasn't that concerned about the troops?

And the democrats (who signed off on the joint resolution of Congress) celebrated every one of their caskets arriving home to Dover AF Base with all the main stream media taking photos....DAILY.
 
Dick Cheney is a patriot, who served his country with distinction..Unlike the America hating scum be have now. Joe Biden? is barely coherent. Maybe early onset Alzheimer's or just plain stupid

We must have different ideas of what constitutes serving with distinction. I thought he was just another politician and professional bureaucrat.....not a war hero.
One doesn't have to serve as a soldier in war to serve his country genius. two term vice president, two time secretary of defense, congressman ect... probably the best and most influential vice president in American history:thup:

Good thing since Cheney spent the Vietnam war avoiding responsibility while better men did his fighting for him.
 
Cheney is a great American hero.

Rrrreally.
What did he do -- torture some Canadian?

This is what is so sad. My Prime Minister is a Conservative. But he and his wife do cat rescue.

Tell me you know this.He is like Mr. Nice Guyl

Like super big time.

You cannot Pogo make Canadians out to be bad guys when our Prime Minister is a rescue cat dude.

That's a dig on Nutz, TD. All the traditional hate groups were taken so he hates on Canadians. I'm mocking him for that.
 
You know Neil, you're one sick individual.
I voted for Bush in 2000 but not in 2004. I voted for Obama in 2008 but not in 2012.
I don't base my morals, thought process or my life on one party/ideology. I leave that for the intellectually lazy.
So, to answer your question. I care as much about lives lost/lives ruined by any president. I'll leave the total lack of respecting the value of humans lives to people like you. That's what you've been all about on this thread.
Like I said, you are sick.

Whatever.
 
Dick Cheney is a patriot, who served his country with distinction..Unlike the America hating scum be have now. Joe Biden? is barely coherent. Maybe early onset Alzheimer's or just plain stupid

We must have different ideas of what constitutes serving with distinction. I thought he was just another politician and professional bureaucrat.....not a war hero.
One doesn't have to serve as a soldier in war to serve his country genius. two term vice president, two time secretary of defense, congressman ect... probably the best and most influential vice president in American history:thup:

Good thing since Cheney spent the Vietnam war avoiding responsibility while better men did his fighting for him.
Yeah. Better men like Bill Clinton and Ted Kennedy.
 

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