China Not Helping With North Korea

[protectionist]

So President Trump tried to get China to pressure North Korea to stop threatening us, and scale back its nuclear weapons program. Instead, China has done the opposite (increased trade with NK 40%).

What does this tell us ? It looks to me like China won't pressure NK to stop being belligerent, because it is China who has been pressuring NK TO BE BELLIGERENT. I suspect China has been behind all this tough, nuclear posturing by NK all along, as a way to attempt to sidestep the tariffs on Chinese imports proposed by Trump.

It has worked so far, but if this is the Chinese ploy, it seems to be about to have run its course. With the attempt to get Chinese co-operation now concluded, the next step may well be to not only impose the tariffs, but impose them sky high.

After a few days of the Chinese flipping out, the scenario might then be in the deal-making mode. With each reduction in belligerence from Kim Jong Un, there could be a corresponding reduction in tariff rates, until the tariffs get down to where Trump wanted them in the first place.

 

[Moonglow]

Machiavellian politics at play..

 

[shockedcanadian]

So President Trump tried to get China to pressure North Korea to stop threatening us, and scale back its nuclear weapons program. Instead, China has done the opposite (increased trade with NK 40%).

What does this tell us ? It looks to me like China won't pressure NK to stop being belligerent, because it is China who has been pressuring NK TO BE BELLIGERENT. I suspect China has been behind all this tough, nuclear posturing by NK all along, as a way to attempt to sidestep the tariffs on Chinese imports proposed by Trump.

It has worked so far, but if this is the Chinese ploy, it seems to be about to have run its course. With the attempt to get Chinese co-operation now concluded, the next step may well be to not only impose the tariffs, but impose them sky high.

After a few days of the Chinese flipping out, the scenario might then be in the deal-making mode. With each reduction in belligerence from Kim Jong Un, there could be a corresponding reduction in tariff rates, until the tariffs get down to where Trump wanted them in the first place.

Simple response, and a vital one. Border tariff of 30% to all nations. Argument in support of these are extensive, not the least of which is the fact America's enemies are emboldened while American struggles, and, until Americas debt is under control, tariff remains.

There seems to be far too many who pretend they care about the population, while they happily watch it's citizens and future generations foot the bill.

 

[Dont Taz Me Bro]

danielpalos Don't derail the thread

 

[The Irish Ram]

China is a big part of the problem, not the solution. I think Trump knew that and put them on the spot. Good. Make them culpable.

 

[protectionist]

China is a big part of the problem, not the solution. I think Trump knew that and put them on the spot. Good. Make them culpable.

I see that as the way it's going. Time for China to be accountable.

 

[shockedcanadian]

China is a big part of the problem, not the solution. I think Trump knew that and put them on the spot. Good. Make them culpable.

I see that as the way it's going. Time for China to be accountable.

Without question. If you need any further evidence, take a look at what Taiwan and Japan have had to endure near their borders. It really bothers me that the world is silent in regards to some allies and threats but they pretend the Paris Agreement is going to save civilization. This, even as Japan and the EU just signed a trade agreement!

So if the EU and UN are not going to be honest when dealing with threats such as China, just what is their motive? They sure would speak out against American actions, and sure as hell speak out against Israel every chance they get. China's abuses and influence on other dystopia regimes ? Silence. My guess is that the fact that America stood alone against the theft of U.S tax dollars known as the Paris Accord shows precisely what some want...America stands in the way of the abuse of individual rights which America has stood for over centuries.

Look, there are many courageous Chinese citizens who have stared down communists, many who have lost their lives or are sitting in a prison as I type this for daring to challenge their abusive government. These citizens are to be admired and honoured, we saw it in the Tiananmen Square uprising, an event that has been erased in Chinese historical documents by the way. There used to be pressure applied to the Chinese government by other nations, now they don't do so as they worry China will punish them with limited access to their cheap labour. China can and should play more fair and not pose a threat to democratic nations and citizens, and in the case of N Korea, use them to threaten America, but they do.

Quite easy to do so when there aren't consequences.

 

[my2¢]

It won't be China paying the tariffs.

 

[Desperado]

Playing Devil's advocate here, it would benefit China to let North Korea continue their missile testing until North Korea could launch a missile with a nuke payload as an EMP attack over the US. This would destroy the US economy and China would become the top dog.

 

[danielpalos]

danielpalos Don't derail the thread

so, what is the Real problem?

I claim, it is merely a lack of Commerce, well regulated.

 

[protectionist]

It won't be China paying the tariffs.

Why not ?

 

[protectionist]

Without question. If you need any further evidence, take a look at what Taiwan and Japan have had to endure near their borders. It really bothers me that the world is silent in regards to some allies and threats but they pretend the Paris Agreement is going to save civilization. This, even as Japan and the EU just signed a trade agreement!

So if the EU and UN are not going to be honest when dealing with threats such as China, just what is their motive? They sure would speak out against American actions, and sure as hell speak out against Israel every chance they get. China's abuses and influence on other dystopia regimes ? Silence. My guess is that the fact that America stood alone against the theft of U.S tax dollars known as the Paris Accord shows precisely what some want...America stands in the way of the abuse of individual rights which America has stood for over centuries.

Look, there are many courageous Chinese citizens who have stared down communists, many who have lost their lives or are sitting in a prison as I type this for daring to challenge their abusive government. These citizens are to be admired and honoured, we saw it in the Tiananmen Square uprising, an event that has been erased in Chinese historical documents by the way. There used to be pressure applied to the Chinese government by other nations, now they don't do so as they worry China will punish them with limited access to their cheap labour. China can and should play more fair and not pose a threat to democratic nations and citizens, and in the case of N Korea, use them to threaten America, but they do.

Quite easy to do so when there aren't consequences.

Hopefully, the Trump administration is in the process of making those consequences.

 

[my2¢]

It won't be China paying the tariffs.

Why not ?

American companies that import the goods are responsible for paying the tariffs. They then pass along the increased cost onto their consumers.

 

[Sundance508]

Playing Devil's advocate here, it would benefit China to let North Korea continue their missile testing until North Korea could launch a missile with a nuke payload as an EMP attack over the US. This would destroy the US economy and China would become the top dog.

China plays hard ball and their desires and motives are not understood well if even known in Washington. They have a very aggressive military leadership and their military leadership is much more involved and influential in government affairs than our military....of course no one wants a nuclear war but do not let anyone fool you...China is not bothered by N. Korea going nuclear...in fact they may have helped them. N. Korea is a puppet state of China....China is the puppetmaster.

So what is going to happen? Some possibilities....Trump will conduct a pre-emptive strike trying to knock out N. Koreas nuclear infrastructure as well as their nuclear stockpile.

Several problems with that option...first of all I do not think the U.S. is capable of launching a supprise attack on anyone...too many leakers, too many Americans who hate America not to mention Trump who are in positions that would enable them to warn the world what Trump is up to.

Any such attack would unleash a tremendous attack on S. Korea by N. Korea who has a strong military....people have tremendously under-estimated N. Korea's military capability. Not even to mention China would not idly stand by....their military craves a limited engagement with America...what they want to do and most likely what all this is about is to inflict a defeat on America and force America to withdraw its military from the Asian arena and bring Taiwan back into the fold....China wants dominance in that region and most likely will achieve it....Trump has good instincts and he wants the best for America...the problem is...he has too much opposition...from both sides of the aisles....that will cripple any efforts on his part to bring N. Korea to heel. I do not think China or anyone else really wants a nuclear war....but they do not fear it nearly as much as we and they have gone to great lengths to prepare for nuclear war. With their population they can afford to lose a lot of people...a tremendous number of people and one must remember they do not value life as Westerners do.

So all the aces are held by China....I think Trump is beginning to understand that...thus what we will most likely see is some sort of phoney diplomatic move by China to get N. Korea to play nicey nice for awhile....get America to accept a Nuclear N. Korea and thus gradually increase the military pressure on America until America finally understands we simply do not have a military option in China's area of influence...China will take over Taiwan as they took back Hong Kong from the British...and S. Korea will in a few years be swallowed up by N. Korea and there will no longer be any American military presence in the Asian sphere.

 

[protectionist]

American companies that import the goods are responsible for paying the tariffs. They then pass along the increased cost onto their consumers.

Allow me to utilize my experience as a former college teacher of Microconomics, and a former business owner.. Common as it may be, the notion of the firm passing along increased costs to consumers is a MYTH.

No firm can increase its price above its market price, and that is the price you see on the shelves in the stores (the current price). It is the HIGHEST price that can be charged without triggering SALES REDUCTIONS/INCOME REDUCTIONS. That's why the price is what it is. It's not somebody's lucky number.

If the importers are having to pay more, and it becomes not economical for them, they won't import. Result ? The exporting companies can't stay in business (at least not overseas, and they return home) - exactly Trump's plan.

 

[protectionist]

China plays hard ball and their desires and motives are not understood well if even known in Washington. They have a very aggressive military leadership and their military leadership is much more involved and influential in government affairs than our military....of course no one wants a nuclear war but do not let anyone fool you...China is not bothered by N. Korea going nuclear...in fact they may have helped them. N. Korea is a puppet state of China....China is the puppetmaster.

So what is going to happen? Some possibilities....Trump will conduct a pre-emptive strike trying to knock out N. Koreas nuclear infrastructure as well as their nuclear stockpile.

Several problems with that option...first of all I do not think the U.S. is capable of launching a supprise attack on anyone...too many leakers, too many Americans who hate America not to mention Trump who are in positions that would enable them to warn the world what Trump is up to.

Any such attack would unleash a tremendous attack on S. Korea by N. Korea who has a strong military....people have tremendously under-estimated N. Korea's military capability. Not even to mention China would not idly stand by....their military craves a limited engagement with America...what they want to do and most likely what all this is about is to inflict a defeat on America and force America to withdraw its military from the Asian arena and bring Taiwan back into the fold....China wants dominance in that region and most likely will achieve it....Trump has good instincts and he wants the best for America...the problem is...he has too much opposition...from both sides of the aisles....that will cripple any efforts on his part to bring N. Korea to heel. I do not think China or anyone else really wants a nuclear war....but they do not fear it nearly as much as we and they have gone to great lengths to prepare for nuclear war. With their population they can afford to lose a lot of people...a tremendous number of people and one must remember they do not value life as Westerners do.

So all the aces are held by China....I think Trump is beginning to understand that...thus what we will most likely see is some sort of phoney diplomatic move by China to get N. Korea to play nicey nice for awhile....get America to accept a Nuclear N. Korea and thus gradually increase the military pressure on America until America finally understands we simply do not have a military option in China's area of influence...China will take over Taiwan as they took back Hong Kong from the British...and S. Korea will in a few years be swallowed up by N. Korea and there will no longer be any American military presence in the Asian sphere.

You are ignoring the OP. The tariff issue.

 

[task0778]

I only see 2 real options here, cuz diplomacy has been and always will be an abject failure with these guys.

1. The US and it's allies will have to pressure the China and Russia to cooperate with us in playing hardball with the NK. As in every kind of pressure to cut the crap and play nice or else we remove you (KJU) from power. That fat little fuck has to be made to believe that he's only in power because we and the Chinese and the Russians allow it, and either he gets his shit together and stops messing with everyone else or he gets replaced with somebody more amenable. And that threat has to be real, no pretense about it. Which means the Chinese and the Russians have to realize that if they don't cooperate with us then they will be hammered with sanctions too, to the point where it hurts. And I mean really hurts.
In addition to that we position tactical nukes in Japan and South Korea, along with a buildup of forces. We have to show that we mean business, no more paper tiger nonsense. It's either do this or allow the NKs to have nuclear warheads and ICBMs capable of reaching the mainland US. Maybe they don't have this yet, but they damn sure will in the not too distant future. Who wants to wait until that possibility is on the table? And if all this in Step #1 doesn't work, then all I see that's left for us is Step #2.

2. The final option is a pre-emptive strike by us against NK's nuclear facilities and missile sites, followed by attacks against their artillery positions and airfields. If we have EMP capabilities, then it's time to use them as necessary to screw up their command and control. We load and go, position whatever we need close enough to do whatever has to be done and pull the trigger. Maybe just the action of getting ourselves in position to start a war would be convincing enough to the Chinese and everyone else to remove the NK gov't and change things there. If so, great, no war. If not, then we are left with the same question posed above. Do you want your children to face the possibility of nukes coming from NK or from some 3rd party non-state actor that buys them from NK and uses them on us?

There will be casualties on all sides, always is in a war. Not something anybody wants to do, but there could be deadly serious consequences if we do nothing.

 

[Indeependent]

It won't be China paying the tariffs.

Why not ?

American companies that import the goods are responsible for paying the tariffs. They then pass along the increased cost onto their consumers.

To a limit.
After the 2008 crash most name brands were replaced by Brand X, even if the Brand X box contained a Brand Name product.

 

[Syriusly]

Without question. If you need any further evidence, take a look at what Taiwan and Japan have had to endure near their borders. It really bothers me that the world is silent in regards to some allies and threats but they pretend the Paris Agreement is going to save civilization. This, even as Japan and the EU just signed a trade agreement!

So if the EU and UN are not going to be honest when dealing with threats such as China, just what is their motive? They sure would speak out against American actions, and sure as hell speak out against Israel every chance they get. China's abuses and influence on other dystopia regimes ? Silence. My guess is that the fact that America stood alone against the theft of U.S tax dollars known as the Paris Accord shows precisely what some want...America stands in the way of the abuse of individual rights which America has stood for over centuries.

Look, there are many courageous Chinese citizens who have stared down communists, many who have lost their lives or are sitting in a prison as I type this for daring to challenge their abusive government. These citizens are to be admired and honoured, we saw it in the Tiananmen Square uprising, an event that has been erased in Chinese historical documents by the way. There used to be pressure applied to the Chinese government by other nations, now they don't do so as they worry China will punish them with limited access to their cheap labour. China can and should play more fair and not pose a threat to democratic nations and citizens, and in the case of N Korea, use them to threaten America, but they do.

Quite easy to do so when there aren't consequences.

Hopefully, the Trump administration is in the process of making those consequences.

What makes you think that Trump has any interest in this at all?

Remember- Trump has already reneged on his promise to you to name China as a currency manipulator- 'on day one'.

He has already talked about what great partners China and the U.S. are.

Trump has shown absolutely no inclination to start a trade war with China in order to pressure North Korea.

 

[Syriusly]

American companies that import the goods are responsible for paying the tariffs. They then pass along the increased cost onto their consumers.

Allow me to utilize my experience as a former college teacher of Microconomics, and a former business owner.. Common as it may be, the notion of the firm passing along increased costs to consumers is a MYTH..

Does anyone believe you were ever a college teacher- let alone a business owner?

Pretty simple- if the United States put say a flat 30% tariff on all imports from China there would likely be several reactions:

• 90% of the non-perishable products in Target, and Walmart etc would end up being marked up by somewhere between 5-30%.
  
• Companies would attempt to shift production to other countries, but the United States sources such a huge percentage of our consumer goods from China, there isn't enough surplus capacity in other countries to switch over without huge investment- and years of development.
  
• Meanwhile- the rest of the world would continue to source from China.
• Meanwhile- China would slap retaliatory tariff's on American imports- reducing good American jobs.

Even Trump has figured out that the relationship between China and NK is complicated- and isn't going to be solved by just threatening economic sanctions on China.