Christianity creates violence

[Hollie]

Personality is the result of chemical processes in the brain that act upon our shared experiences, interactions with the natural world, social and familial interactions, etc.

Your explanation of the concept of a “soul” is insufficient. It's only sufficient for those who have already decided there must be a “soul”. You believe it's okay to assume as decided, the issue of some sort of continuation of the consciousness after death or some other undefined "consciousness" that you hope to connect with one or more gawds.

I have no explanation for "spirits" or the "soul" because the soul remains undemonstrated. I have no properties and characteristics for that which does not exist. I do have a comment about personality, and where that comes from. The sense of self is a higher brain function and it's seen in comparably lesser degrees in lesser animals (i.e., humans are not the only creatures with a sense of "self"). This in and of itself is enough to prove that "selfhood" is a natural phenomenon of higher brain functions. Either that, or your gods have made monkeys and men with a soul each, and that means humans are the especial creation of god. Language, nurturing, survival, industry, and even environmental control all can be attributed to animals lesser on the sentience strat than man, which is a great case for man being of and a part of the natural world-- no gods needed.

Personality is a phenomenon of the brain. Remove sections of the brain and the "self" changes as well. Apparently your eternal soul is at the mercy of a few pounds of grey jelly, because the soul cannot override the impact to the brain and the change in personality that attends that impact. The soul must be fairly weak.

This is a perfectly valid explanation for emotions, and it doesn't require the mumbo-jumbo of gods to explain it.

Non-material concepts are not fully non-material. You need a brain to substantiate them. Damage or impact to the brain directly affects the development and delivery of the concepts. You are simply assuming a spiritual nature for these things, and not submitting any case to support it. I am submitting they are the effects of the brain along with neurons and chemicals within the brain, and I can demonstrate how they can be manipulated by physical impact.

By way of example, I can

1. end all thought by killing that brain
2. create an emotion by chemical inducement of that brain
3. limit the thought and emotion of the brain by removing sections of it.

All the poetry about feelings and spirit and so on -- reside only in the brain. Remove it, and away it all goes. All of it. Even belief in gawds.

Now would be the appropriate time to demonstrate the asserted "soul", and the unique gawds who supplied the spiritual source, which religionists assert is the actual reason emotions exist.

You can do that, right?

For those of us who believe there is life after death, reason tells us that we have within us something that is capable of existence separate from the body. We call this the soul. It is the soul that contains our mind and personality, and indeed the body can either interfere with or promote the will of the soul. It is the soul, not the brain and its chemicals, that give physical animation to personality and choices. In this life, the soul presents itself (makes itself known) through the body.

Emotion certainly is a part of personality.

And the fact is, as I demonstrated to you, damage, injury or chemical inducement to the brain changes personality.

Now would be the appropriate time to demonstrate the asserted "soul", and the unique gawds who supplied the spiritual source, which religionists assert is the actual reason emotions exist.

You can do that, right?

Define for us the "soul" and how your gawds or a vast syndicate of gawds have agreed upon the terms and conditions of this "soul" thing.

No. It changes how we react to the world. It does not change the "me". You may find yourself unable to cope with stress, subject to bouts of uncontrolled anger, but you don't become someone else. You are still you. That is what I am asking about. What exactly is it that makes me? When you say "I feel X", what is the "I"?

Let me answer that question for you. We don't know. Is it some external "soul"? We don't know. Is it purely chemical? We don't know. You're claim that it is chemical is no less a belief than the claim it is a soul, because we don't know.

I've given you a clear example of how your "soul" thing is pointless and undemonstrated and how personality is the result of chemical processes in the brain.

The human body is a biological mechanism which functions in no way different from that of other mammals: there is a respiratory system, a nervous system, a lymphatic system, a circulatory system, a digestive system, etc. What powers these systems? Electrolytes.

And again, what is this "soul" thing? You keep dancing around any accounting of how your gawds or a syndicate of gawds implemented and manage this "soul" you insist exists but sidestep around defining.

Define for us this "soul".

No. You have claimed it. That is all you have done. I have to take it on faith.

I haven't got a clue what a "soul" is. I don't know if there is such a thing. When I say "we don't know" I wasn't excluding myself. But when someone said "this is a soul" you claimed it was just a personality, so I am asking your what a personality is. What chemical process in the brain is the personality and show me the scientific studies to support your claim. If you can't do that, you're just expressing another belief no better than any other belief.

Correct, you haven't got a clue what this "soul" thing is but you insist it exists and apparently must be implemented and managed by one or more gawds.

How interesting that you are certain of something without having a clue about this "thing".

I have only to let you rattle on with things you have no clue about to let you dismantle your own argument..

As I wrote out previously, damage or impact to the brain directly affects the development and delivery of concepts to the brain. You are simply (and by your own admission, cluelessly) assuming a supernatural causation for these things, and not submitting any case to support it. I am submitting they are the effects of the brain along with neurons and chemicals within the brain, and I can demonstrate how they can be manipulated by physical impact.

By way of example, I can

1. end all thought by killing that brain
2. create an emotion by chemical inducement of that brain
3. limit the thought and emotion of the brain by removing sections of it.

How curious that a simple matter of an imbalance of electrolytes in the blood can cause your "soul" thing to be dismantled.

I'm not sure how you translated my statement of "I don't know if there is such a thing" to "I am certain there is such a thing". If you want to make up my part of the discussion, you don't really need me in it. Just let me know and I can back out. Otherwise, perhaps you can respond to what I actually write.

I clean scuba regulators as a second vocation. Part of that is dipping metal parts in a vinegar solution to remove corrosion. This is a weak acid and I dip the parts in a baking soda solution afterwards in order to terminate the chemical reaction of the vinegar interacting with the metal. According to your position, if I crush someone's skull with a hammer, I am just terminating a chemical reaction. Tell me what the difference is between the two actions.

I'm responding to what you wrote. The fact is, damage, injury or chemical inducement to the brain changes our personality. Modern drugs, for example, can provide for changes in both personality and behavior in the treatment of people with depression and other mental illnesses. How would anyone access your "soul" thing to do the same? How odd that your "soul" thing is so easily modified by simply changing body chemistry.

As I noted previously, electrolytes play a major role in many of the body’s major functions. They not only provide energy, balance and stamina but also make healing, digestion and movement possible.

The point is, your "soul" thing is nothing more than an appeal to fear and ignorance regarding the necessary functions of electrolytes that play a similar role in all mammalian species. The minerals found in electrolytic fluid are essential to the formation of new body tissues. They transport electrical charges across the cell membranes, making muscle action possible. They trigger nerve functions and facilitate the transfer of energy within cells. They also maintain the body’s fluid balance.

Regarding some attempt at analogy you were trying to make between scuba regulators and gawd knows what else, did you realize that scuba regulators are not biological organisms?

 

[Hollie]

Personality is the result of chemical processes in the brain that act upon our shared experiences, interactions with the natural world, social and familial interactions, etc.

Your explanation of the concept of a “soul” is insufficient. It's only sufficient for those who have already decided there must be a “soul”. You believe it's okay to assume as decided, the issue of some sort of continuation of the consciousness after death or some other undefined "consciousness" that you hope to connect with one or more gawds.

I have no explanation for "spirits" or the "soul" because the soul remains undemonstrated. I have no properties and characteristics for that which does not exist. I do have a comment about personality, and where that comes from. The sense of self is a higher brain function and it's seen in comparably lesser degrees in lesser animals (i.e., humans are not the only creatures with a sense of "self"). This in and of itself is enough to prove that "selfhood" is a natural phenomenon of higher brain functions. Either that, or your gods have made monkeys and men with a soul each, and that means humans are the especial creation of god. Language, nurturing, survival, industry, and even environmental control all can be attributed to animals lesser on the sentience strat than man, which is a great case for man being of and a part of the natural world-- no gods needed.

Personality is a phenomenon of the brain. Remove sections of the brain and the "self" changes as well. Apparently your eternal soul is at the mercy of a few pounds of grey jelly, because the soul cannot override the impact to the brain and the change in personality that attends that impact. The soul must be fairly weak.

This is a perfectly valid explanation for emotions, and it doesn't require the mumbo-jumbo of gods to explain it.

Non-material concepts are not fully non-material. You need a brain to substantiate them. Damage or impact to the brain directly affects the development and delivery of the concepts. You are simply assuming a spiritual nature for these things, and not submitting any case to support it. I am submitting they are the effects of the brain along with neurons and chemicals within the brain, and I can demonstrate how they can be manipulated by physical impact.

By way of example, I can

1. end all thought by killing that brain
2. create an emotion by chemical inducement of that brain
3. limit the thought and emotion of the brain by removing sections of it.

All the poetry about feelings and spirit and so on -- reside only in the brain. Remove it, and away it all goes. All of it. Even belief in gawds.

Now would be the appropriate time to demonstrate the asserted "soul", and the unique gawds who supplied the spiritual source, which religionists assert is the actual reason emotions exist.

You can do that, right?

For those of us who believe there is life after death, reason tells us that we have within us something that is capable of existence separate from the body. We call this the soul. It is the soul that contains our mind and personality, and indeed the body can either interfere with or promote the will of the soul. It is the soul, not the brain and its chemicals, that give physical animation to personality and choices. In this life, the soul presents itself (makes itself known) through the body.

Actually, its the brain that contains what is described as mind and personality. You need your brain to resolve such abstract concepts. Damage, injury or chemical inducement to the brain changes both your mind and your personality.

So yet again, we're left with nothing to substantiate any "soul" thing. For that matter, your entire belief in a "soul" derives from your religious ideology. Had you been raised in a cultural / ideological environment without such concepts of "souls", you would not be making any such argument.

 

[koshergrl]

Delta and other anti-Christian pukes eternally blame victims for the violence that is enacted against them.

They maintain that Christianity breeds violence, because tyrants, muslims, and others take violent action against Christians...and any defense on the part of Christians is viewed as an indication that it's a *violent* religion.

It's just more anti-Christian bigotry.

The same people who claim that Christians are violent because they are eternally being targeted, maintain that blacks are in no way responsible for the fact that they are responsible for a disproportionate percentage of violent crime. In fact, most anti-Christian bigots could find a way to claim that Christians are somehow responsible for the fact that blacks as a group are more violent and less educated than the rest of the population.

 

[Hollie]

Delta and other anti-Christian pukes eternally blame victims for the violence that is enacted against them.

They maintain that Christianity breeds violence, because tyrants, muslims, and others take violent action against Christians...and any defense on the part of Christians is viewed as an indication that it's a *violent* religion.

It's just more anti-Christian bigotry.

The same people who claim that Christians are violent because they are eternally being targeted, maintain that blacks are in no way responsible for the fact that they are responsible for a disproportionate percentage of violent crime. In fact, most anti-Christian bigots could find a way to claim that Christians are somehow responsible for the fact that blacks as a group are more violent and less educated than the rest of the population.

It's a conspiracy I tell'ya.

Ah, the good ole' days when you lovely christian folk could just level a claim of witchcraft at someone and burn the blasphemer at the stake.

 

[emilynghiem]

Personality is the result of chemical processes in the brain that act upon our shared experiences, interactions with the natural world, social and familial interactions, etc.

Your explanation of the concept of a “soul” is insufficient. It's only sufficient for those who have already decided there must be a “soul”. You believe it's okay to assume as decided, the issue of some sort of continuation of the consciousness after death or some other undefined "consciousness" that you hope to connect with one or more gawds.

I have no explanation for "spirits" or the "soul" because the soul remains undemonstrated. I have no properties and characteristics for that which does not exist. I do have a comment about personality, and where that comes from. The sense of self is a higher brain function and it's seen in comparably lesser degrees in lesser animals (i.e., humans are not the only creatures with a sense of "self"). This in and of itself is enough to prove that "selfhood" is a natural phenomenon of higher brain functions. Either that, or your gods have made monkeys and men with a soul each, and that means humans are the especial creation of god. Language, nurturing, survival, industry, and even environmental control all can be attributed to animals lesser on the sentience strat than man, which is a great case for man being of and a part of the natural world-- no gods needed.

Personality is a phenomenon of the brain. Remove sections of the brain and the "self" changes as well. Apparently your eternal soul is at the mercy of a few pounds of grey jelly, because the soul cannot override the impact to the brain and the change in personality that attends that impact. The soul must be fairly weak.

This is a perfectly valid explanation for emotions, and it doesn't require the mumbo-jumbo of gods to explain it.

Non-material concepts are not fully non-material. You need a brain to substantiate them. Damage or impact to the brain directly affects the development and delivery of the concepts. You are simply assuming a spiritual nature for these things, and not submitting any case to support it. I am submitting they are the effects of the brain along with neurons and chemicals within the brain, and I can demonstrate how they can be manipulated by physical impact.

By way of example, I can

1. end all thought by killing that brain
2. create an emotion by chemical inducement of that brain
3. limit the thought and emotion of the brain by removing sections of it.

All the poetry about feelings and spirit and so on -- reside only in the brain. Remove it, and away it all goes. All of it. Even belief in gawds.

Now would be the appropriate time to demonstrate the asserted "soul", and the unique gawds who supplied the spiritual source, which religionists assert is the actual reason emotions exist.

You can do that, right?

For those of us who believe there is life after death, reason tells us that we have within us something that is capable of existence separate from the body. We call this the soul. It is the soul that contains our mind and personality, and indeed the body can either interfere with or promote the will of the soul. It is the soul, not the brain and its chemicals, that give physical animation to personality and choices. In this life, the soul presents itself (makes itself known) through the body.

No. It changes how we react to the world. It does not change the "me". You may find yourself unable to cope with stress, subject to bouts of uncontrolled anger, but you don't become someone else. You are still you. That is what I am asking about. What exactly is it that makes me? When you say "I feel X", what is the "I"?

Let me answer that question for you. We don't know. Is it some external "soul"? We don't know. Is it purely chemical? We don't know. You're claim that it is chemical is no less a belief than the claim it is a soul, because we don't know.

I've given you a clear example of how your "soul" thing is pointless and undemonstrated and how personality is the result of chemical processes in the brain.

The human body is a biological mechanism which functions in no way different from that of other mammals: there is a respiratory system, a nervous system, a lymphatic system, a circulatory system, a digestive system, etc. What powers these systems? Electrolytes.

And again, what is this "soul" thing? You keep dancing around any accounting of how your gawds or a syndicate of gawds implemented and manage this "soul" you insist exists but sidestep around defining.

Define for us this "soul".

No. You have claimed it. That is all you have done. I have to take it on faith.

I haven't got a clue what a "soul" is. I don't know if there is such a thing. When I say "we don't know" I wasn't excluding myself. But when someone said "this is a soul" you claimed it was just a personality, so I am asking your what a personality is. What chemical process in the brain is the personality and show me the scientific studies to support your claim. If you can't do that, you're just expressing another belief no better than any other belief.

Correct, you haven't got a clue what this "soul" thing is but you insist it exists and apparently must be implemented and managed by one or more gawds.

How interesting that you are certain of something without having a clue about this "thing".

I have only to let you rattle on with things you have no clue about to let you dismantle your own argument..

As I wrote out previously, damage or impact to the brain directly affects the development and delivery of concepts to the brain. You are simply (and by your own admission, cluelessly) assuming a supernatural causation for these things, and not submitting any case to support it. I am submitting they are the effects of the brain along with neurons and chemicals within the brain, and I can demonstrate how they can be manipulated by physical impact.

By way of example, I can

1. end all thought by killing that brain
2. create an emotion by chemical inducement of that brain
3. limit the thought and emotion of the brain by removing sections of it.

How curious that a simple matter of an imbalance of electrolytes in the blood can cause your "soul" thing to be dismantled.

I'm not sure how you translated my statement of "I don't know if there is such a thing" to "I am certain there is such a thing". If you want to make up my part of the discussion, you don't really need me in it. Just let me know and I can back out. Otherwise, perhaps you can respond to what I actually write.

I clean scuba regulators as a second vocation. Part of that is dipping metal parts in a vinegar solution to remove corrosion. This is a weak acid and I dip the parts in a baking soda solution afterwards in order to terminate the chemical reaction of the vinegar interacting with the metal. According to your position, if I crush someone's skull with a hammer, I am just terminating a chemical reaction. Tell me what the difference is between the two actions.

I'm responding to what you wrote. The fact is, damage, injury or chemical inducement to the brain changes our personality. Modern drugs, for example, can provide for changes in both personality and behavior in the treatment of people with depression and other mental illnesses. How would anyone access your "soul" thing to do the same? How odd that your "soul" thing is so easily modified by simply changing body chemistry.

As I noted previously, electrolytes play a major role in many of the body’s major functions. They not only provide energy, balance and stamina but also make healing, digestion and movement possible.

The point is, your "soul" thing is nothing more than an appeal to fear and ignorance regarding the necessary functions of electrolytes that play a similar role in all mammalian species. The minerals found in electrolytic fluid are essential to the formation of new body tissues. They transport electrical charges across the cell membranes, making muscle action possible. They trigger nerve functions and facilitate the transfer of energy within cells. They also maintain the body’s fluid balance.

Regarding some attempt at analogy you were trying to make between scuba regulators and gawd knows what else, did you realize that scuba regulators are not biological organisms?

Hi Hollie: You bring up very astute points.
I believe you exemplify the greatest benefit that nontheists serve, because you will ask these objective questions
that other people take for granted.

Thank you very much!

To explore yours and related questions
I do believe it helps to study cases of
* multiple personalities
* demonic voices and personalities
* schizophenic and schizoid personality disorders
* basically anything where people report either
multiple or "nonhuman" entities controlling and speaking or acting through them

If we were to study more cases of such people
BEFORE and AFTER they receive treatment,
then we might be able to discern what is caused
by the sickness hijacking or skewing their natural personality
and what is coming from themselves.

Some cases of personality disorder are just how people are, and may not change.
Some cases of people being so criminally sick, they are inhuman or worse than animals
in attacking, killing or cannibalizing people may or may not be that way naturally and
may have the equivalent of a deadly disease, which may or may not be cureable.

In some of these cases of Schizophrenia, as observed or treated by Dr. MacNutt and Dr. Peck
and described in their books, the patients WERE cured and DID change back to "normal."
One of Dr. Peck's patients had never had the free use of her mind adult lives, and had to learn how to use reason and make choices after having free will restored. All the previous time was spend enslaved and controlled by these conditions that were like an alternate unnatural even inhuman personality, invading the patient's mind like a foreign virus.

My friend Olivia reported a woman with "multiple personalities" caused by these demonic
personalities, that went away after she did the spiritual deliverance/exorcism prayer to remove them.

This is on a very deep level of energy that exceeds our free will to change on our own.
So the Christian healing prayer addresses that higher level of energy to REMOVE these
demonic infestations.

People HAVE changed personalities.
But they will say the new self is their real self
and their old way was sick and not the real them.

Olivia has been working with former gang members who experienced life changing
and healing and became as new, like starting over as children and undoing all the damage
either from experiences in life or they may have been born with some of these conditions, illness or karma affecting them, whatever you call these "conditions."

The point is the NEGATIVE sickness is not always a permanent part of
their Personality/Soul, so the things that can change are not, and whatever is left is what they are.
========================
RE: homosexuality
I believe Dr. MacNutt has this right when he says SOME cases may be caused by demonic influences that can be changed, but not all may change that way. He still believes all can be healed, but there are no cases of ANYTHING that can be 100% healed 100% of the time.

Some Christians who went through spiritual healing did not change their
orientation to heterosexual, so many have come to peace to accept they were spiritually made that way for whatever reason, to teach about love and forgiveness and not judging or rejecting people by conditions they were born under.

Some Christians believe such people can still be healed and aren't finished with the process.

So we do not know these things until and unless people change and say which way is the real them.

 

[Meriweather]

Actually, its the brain that contains what is described as mind and personality. You need your brain to resolve such abstract concepts. Damage, injury or chemical inducement to the brain changes both your mind and your personality.

So yet again, we're left with nothing to substantiate any "soul" thing. For that matter, your entire belief in a "soul" derives from your religious ideology. Had you been raised in a cultural / ideological environment without such concepts of "souls", you would not be making any such argument.

Do you believe in life after death? If not, we probably do not have a common ground to work on. I do believe in the next life, that what is truly me lives on after the body dies. That part of me is known as the 'soul' or 'spirit'.

 

[PratchettFan]

Personality is the result of chemical processes in the brain that act upon our shared experiences, interactions with the natural world, social and familial interactions, etc.

Your explanation of the concept of a “soul” is insufficient. It's only sufficient for those who have already decided there must be a “soul”. You believe it's okay to assume as decided, the issue of some sort of continuation of the consciousness after death or some other undefined "consciousness" that you hope to connect with one or more gawds.

I have no explanation for "spirits" or the "soul" because the soul remains undemonstrated. I have no properties and characteristics for that which does not exist. I do have a comment about personality, and where that comes from. The sense of self is a higher brain function and it's seen in comparably lesser degrees in lesser animals (i.e., humans are not the only creatures with a sense of "self"). This in and of itself is enough to prove that "selfhood" is a natural phenomenon of higher brain functions. Either that, or your gods have made monkeys and men with a soul each, and that means humans are the especial creation of god. Language, nurturing, survival, industry, and even environmental control all can be attributed to animals lesser on the sentience strat than man, which is a great case for man being of and a part of the natural world-- no gods needed.

Personality is a phenomenon of the brain. Remove sections of the brain and the "self" changes as well. Apparently your eternal soul is at the mercy of a few pounds of grey jelly, because the soul cannot override the impact to the brain and the change in personality that attends that impact. The soul must be fairly weak.

This is a perfectly valid explanation for emotions, and it doesn't require the mumbo-jumbo of gods to explain it.

Non-material concepts are not fully non-material. You need a brain to substantiate them. Damage or impact to the brain directly affects the development and delivery of the concepts. You are simply assuming a spiritual nature for these things, and not submitting any case to support it. I am submitting they are the effects of the brain along with neurons and chemicals within the brain, and I can demonstrate how they can be manipulated by physical impact.

By way of example, I can

1. end all thought by killing that brain
2. create an emotion by chemical inducement of that brain
3. limit the thought and emotion of the brain by removing sections of it.

All the poetry about feelings and spirit and so on -- reside only in the brain. Remove it, and away it all goes. All of it. Even belief in gawds.

Now would be the appropriate time to demonstrate the asserted "soul", and the unique gawds who supplied the spiritual source, which religionists assert is the actual reason emotions exist.

You can do that, right?

For those of us who believe there is life after death, reason tells us that we have within us something that is capable of existence separate from the body. We call this the soul. It is the soul that contains our mind and personality, and indeed the body can either interfere with or promote the will of the soul. It is the soul, not the brain and its chemicals, that give physical animation to personality and choices. In this life, the soul presents itself (makes itself known) through the body.

No. It changes how we react to the world. It does not change the "me". You may find yourself unable to cope with stress, subject to bouts of uncontrolled anger, but you don't become someone else. You are still you. That is what I am asking about. What exactly is it that makes me? When you say "I feel X", what is the "I"?

Let me answer that question for you. We don't know. Is it some external "soul"? We don't know. Is it purely chemical? We don't know. You're claim that it is chemical is no less a belief than the claim it is a soul, because we don't know.

I've given you a clear example of how your "soul" thing is pointless and undemonstrated and how personality is the result of chemical processes in the brain.

The human body is a biological mechanism which functions in no way different from that of other mammals: there is a respiratory system, a nervous system, a lymphatic system, a circulatory system, a digestive system, etc. What powers these systems? Electrolytes.

And again, what is this "soul" thing? You keep dancing around any accounting of how your gawds or a syndicate of gawds implemented and manage this "soul" you insist exists but sidestep around defining.

Define for us this "soul".

No. You have claimed it. That is all you have done. I have to take it on faith.

I haven't got a clue what a "soul" is. I don't know if there is such a thing. When I say "we don't know" I wasn't excluding myself. But when someone said "this is a soul" you claimed it was just a personality, so I am asking your what a personality is. What chemical process in the brain is the personality and show me the scientific studies to support your claim. If you can't do that, you're just expressing another belief no better than any other belief.

Correct, you haven't got a clue what this "soul" thing is but you insist it exists and apparently must be implemented and managed by one or more gawds.

How interesting that you are certain of something without having a clue about this "thing".

I have only to let you rattle on with things you have no clue about to let you dismantle your own argument..

As I wrote out previously, damage or impact to the brain directly affects the development and delivery of concepts to the brain. You are simply (and by your own admission, cluelessly) assuming a supernatural causation for these things, and not submitting any case to support it. I am submitting they are the effects of the brain along with neurons and chemicals within the brain, and I can demonstrate how they can be manipulated by physical impact.

By way of example, I can

1. end all thought by killing that brain
2. create an emotion by chemical inducement of that brain
3. limit the thought and emotion of the brain by removing sections of it.

How curious that a simple matter of an imbalance of electrolytes in the blood can cause your "soul" thing to be dismantled.

I'm not sure how you translated my statement of "I don't know if there is such a thing" to "I am certain there is such a thing". If you want to make up my part of the discussion, you don't really need me in it. Just let me know and I can back out. Otherwise, perhaps you can respond to what I actually write.

I clean scuba regulators as a second vocation. Part of that is dipping metal parts in a vinegar solution to remove corrosion. This is a weak acid and I dip the parts in a baking soda solution afterwards in order to terminate the chemical reaction of the vinegar interacting with the metal. According to your position, if I crush someone's skull with a hammer, I am just terminating a chemical reaction. Tell me what the difference is between the two actions.

I'm responding to what you wrote. The fact is, damage, injury or chemical inducement to the brain changes our personality. Modern drugs, for example, can provide for changes in both personality and behavior in the treatment of people with depression and other mental illnesses. How would anyone access your "soul" thing to do the same? How odd that your "soul" thing is so easily modified by simply changing body chemistry.

As I noted previously, electrolytes play a major role in many of the body’s major functions. They not only provide energy, balance and stamina but also make healing, digestion and movement possible.

The point is, your "soul" thing is nothing more than an appeal to fear and ignorance regarding the necessary functions of electrolytes that play a similar role in all mammalian species. The minerals found in electrolytic fluid are essential to the formation of new body tissues. They transport electrical charges across the cell membranes, making muscle action possible. They trigger nerve functions and facilitate the transfer of energy within cells. They also maintain the body’s fluid balance.

Regarding some attempt at analogy you were trying to make between scuba regulators and gawd knows what else, did you realize that scuba regulators are not biological organisms?

I said I did not know and you responded that I said I was certain. In short, you were responding to what you wanted to argue against and not to what I wrote. Don't assume you know what I am thinking. I do not believe in your version of god. In fact, the only person right now who is claiming certainty, based solely upon belief I might add, is you.

A chemical reaction is a chemical reaction. Why does it matter whether or not it is biological?

 

[PratchettFan]

Personality is the result of chemical processes in the brain that act upon our shared experiences, interactions with the natural world, social and familial interactions, etc.

Your explanation of the concept of a “soul” is insufficient. It's only sufficient for those who have already decided there must be a “soul”. You believe it's okay to assume as decided, the issue of some sort of continuation of the consciousness after death or some other undefined "consciousness" that you hope to connect with one or more gawds.

I have no explanation for "spirits" or the "soul" because the soul remains undemonstrated. I have no properties and characteristics for that which does not exist. I do have a comment about personality, and where that comes from. The sense of self is a higher brain function and it's seen in comparably lesser degrees in lesser animals (i.e., humans are not the only creatures with a sense of "self"). This in and of itself is enough to prove that "selfhood" is a natural phenomenon of higher brain functions. Either that, or your gods have made monkeys and men with a soul each, and that means humans are the especial creation of god. Language, nurturing, survival, industry, and even environmental control all can be attributed to animals lesser on the sentience strat than man, which is a great case for man being of and a part of the natural world-- no gods needed.

Personality is a phenomenon of the brain. Remove sections of the brain and the "self" changes as well. Apparently your eternal soul is at the mercy of a few pounds of grey jelly, because the soul cannot override the impact to the brain and the change in personality that attends that impact. The soul must be fairly weak.

This is a perfectly valid explanation for emotions, and it doesn't require the mumbo-jumbo of gods to explain it.

Non-material concepts are not fully non-material. You need a brain to substantiate them. Damage or impact to the brain directly affects the development and delivery of the concepts. You are simply assuming a spiritual nature for these things, and not submitting any case to support it. I am submitting they are the effects of the brain along with neurons and chemicals within the brain, and I can demonstrate how they can be manipulated by physical impact.

By way of example, I can

1. end all thought by killing that brain
2. create an emotion by chemical inducement of that brain
3. limit the thought and emotion of the brain by removing sections of it.

All the poetry about feelings and spirit and so on -- reside only in the brain. Remove it, and away it all goes. All of it. Even belief in gawds.

Now would be the appropriate time to demonstrate the asserted "soul", and the unique gawds who supplied the spiritual source, which religionists assert is the actual reason emotions exist.

You can do that, right?

For those of us who believe there is life after death, reason tells us that we have within us something that is capable of existence separate from the body. We call this the soul. It is the soul that contains our mind and personality, and indeed the body can either interfere with or promote the will of the soul. It is the soul, not the brain and its chemicals, that give physical animation to personality and choices. In this life, the soul presents itself (makes itself known) through the body.

Actually, its the brain that contains what is described as mind and personality. You need your brain to resolve such abstract concepts. Damage, injury or chemical inducement to the brain changes both your mind and your personality.

So yet again, we're left with nothing to substantiate any "soul" thing. For that matter, your entire belief in a "soul" derives from your religious ideology. Had you been raised in a cultural / ideological environment without such concepts of "souls", you would not be making any such argument.

You keep making this same unsupported claim. During the course of any life there are going to be all kinds of experiences which change the chemistry of the brain. Dangerous conditions, surprises, ingestion of various chemicals. All kinds of things and everyone experiences them to one extent or another. I think it safe to say you are no exception. Have you ever not been you?

 

[Hollie]

Personality is the result of chemical processes in the brain that act upon our shared experiences, interactions with the natural world, social and familial interactions, etc.

Your explanation of the concept of a “soul” is insufficient. It's only sufficient for those who have already decided there must be a “soul”. You believe it's okay to assume as decided, the issue of some sort of continuation of the consciousness after death or some other undefined "consciousness" that you hope to connect with one or more gawds.

I have no explanation for "spirits" or the "soul" because the soul remains undemonstrated. I have no properties and characteristics for that which does not exist. I do have a comment about personality, and where that comes from. The sense of self is a higher brain function and it's seen in comparably lesser degrees in lesser animals (i.e., humans are not the only creatures with a sense of "self"). This in and of itself is enough to prove that "selfhood" is a natural phenomenon of higher brain functions. Either that, or your gods have made monkeys and men with a soul each, and that means humans are the especial creation of god. Language, nurturing, survival, industry, and even environmental control all can be attributed to animals lesser on the sentience strat than man, which is a great case for man being of and a part of the natural world-- no gods needed.

Personality is a phenomenon of the brain. Remove sections of the brain and the "self" changes as well. Apparently your eternal soul is at the mercy of a few pounds of grey jelly, because the soul cannot override the impact to the brain and the change in personality that attends that impact. The soul must be fairly weak.

This is a perfectly valid explanation for emotions, and it doesn't require the mumbo-jumbo of gods to explain it.

Non-material concepts are not fully non-material. You need a brain to substantiate them. Damage or impact to the brain directly affects the development and delivery of the concepts. You are simply assuming a spiritual nature for these things, and not submitting any case to support it. I am submitting they are the effects of the brain along with neurons and chemicals within the brain, and I can demonstrate how they can be manipulated by physical impact.

By way of example, I can

1. end all thought by killing that brain
2. create an emotion by chemical inducement of that brain
3. limit the thought and emotion of the brain by removing sections of it.

All the poetry about feelings and spirit and so on -- reside only in the brain. Remove it, and away it all goes. All of it. Even belief in gawds.

Now would be the appropriate time to demonstrate the asserted "soul", and the unique gawds who supplied the spiritual source, which religionists assert is the actual reason emotions exist.

You can do that, right?

For those of us who believe there is life after death, reason tells us that we have within us something that is capable of existence separate from the body. We call this the soul. It is the soul that contains our mind and personality, and indeed the body can either interfere with or promote the will of the soul. It is the soul, not the brain and its chemicals, that give physical animation to personality and choices. In this life, the soul presents itself (makes itself known) through the body.

I've given you a clear example of how your "soul" thing is pointless and undemonstrated and how personality is the result of chemical processes in the brain.

The human body is a biological mechanism which functions in no way different from that of other mammals: there is a respiratory system, a nervous system, a lymphatic system, a circulatory system, a digestive system, etc. What powers these systems? Electrolytes.

And again, what is this "soul" thing? You keep dancing around any accounting of how your gawds or a syndicate of gawds implemented and manage this "soul" you insist exists but sidestep around defining.

Define for us this "soul".

No. You have claimed it. That is all you have done. I have to take it on faith.

I haven't got a clue what a "soul" is. I don't know if there is such a thing. When I say "we don't know" I wasn't excluding myself. But when someone said "this is a soul" you claimed it was just a personality, so I am asking your what a personality is. What chemical process in the brain is the personality and show me the scientific studies to support your claim. If you can't do that, you're just expressing another belief no better than any other belief.

Correct, you haven't got a clue what this "soul" thing is but you insist it exists and apparently must be implemented and managed by one or more gawds.

How interesting that you are certain of something without having a clue about this "thing".

I have only to let you rattle on with things you have no clue about to let you dismantle your own argument..

As I wrote out previously, damage or impact to the brain directly affects the development and delivery of concepts to the brain. You are simply (and by your own admission, cluelessly) assuming a supernatural causation for these things, and not submitting any case to support it. I am submitting they are the effects of the brain along with neurons and chemicals within the brain, and I can demonstrate how they can be manipulated by physical impact.

By way of example, I can

1. end all thought by killing that brain
2. create an emotion by chemical inducement of that brain
3. limit the thought and emotion of the brain by removing sections of it.

How curious that a simple matter of an imbalance of electrolytes in the blood can cause your "soul" thing to be dismantled.

I'm not sure how you translated my statement of "I don't know if there is such a thing" to "I am certain there is such a thing". If you want to make up my part of the discussion, you don't really need me in it. Just let me know and I can back out. Otherwise, perhaps you can respond to what I actually write.

I clean scuba regulators as a second vocation. Part of that is dipping metal parts in a vinegar solution to remove corrosion. This is a weak acid and I dip the parts in a baking soda solution afterwards in order to terminate the chemical reaction of the vinegar interacting with the metal. According to your position, if I crush someone's skull with a hammer, I am just terminating a chemical reaction. Tell me what the difference is between the two actions.

I'm responding to what you wrote. The fact is, damage, injury or chemical inducement to the brain changes our personality. Modern drugs, for example, can provide for changes in both personality and behavior in the treatment of people with depression and other mental illnesses. How would anyone access your "soul" thing to do the same? How odd that your "soul" thing is so easily modified by simply changing body chemistry.

As I noted previously, electrolytes play a major role in many of the body’s major functions. They not only provide energy, balance and stamina but also make healing, digestion and movement possible.

The point is, your "soul" thing is nothing more than an appeal to fear and ignorance regarding the necessary functions of electrolytes that play a similar role in all mammalian species. The minerals found in electrolytic fluid are essential to the formation of new body tissues. They transport electrical charges across the cell membranes, making muscle action possible. They trigger nerve functions and facilitate the transfer of energy within cells. They also maintain the body’s fluid balance.

Regarding some attempt at analogy you were trying to make between scuba regulators and gawd knows what else, did you realize that scuba regulators are not biological organisms?

I said I did not know and you responded that I said I was certain. In short, you were responding to what you wanted to argue against and not to what I wrote. Don't assume you know what I am thinking. I do not believe in your version of god. In fact, the only person right now who is claiming certainty, based solely upon belief I might add, is you.

A chemical reaction is a chemical reaction. Why does it matter whether or not it is biological?

Um, no. Biological organisms react to chemical stimuli and produce reactions in a different way than do inanimate objects.

Have you ever taken an 8th chemistry course? I was literally astounded at your comment.

 

[PratchettFan]

Personality is the result of chemical processes in the brain that act upon our shared experiences, interactions with the natural world, social and familial interactions, etc.

Your explanation of the concept of a “soul” is insufficient. It's only sufficient for those who have already decided there must be a “soul”. You believe it's okay to assume as decided, the issue of some sort of continuation of the consciousness after death or some other undefined "consciousness" that you hope to connect with one or more gawds.

I have no explanation for "spirits" or the "soul" because the soul remains undemonstrated. I have no properties and characteristics for that which does not exist. I do have a comment about personality, and where that comes from. The sense of self is a higher brain function and it's seen in comparably lesser degrees in lesser animals (i.e., humans are not the only creatures with a sense of "self"). This in and of itself is enough to prove that "selfhood" is a natural phenomenon of higher brain functions. Either that, or your gods have made monkeys and men with a soul each, and that means humans are the especial creation of god. Language, nurturing, survival, industry, and even environmental control all can be attributed to animals lesser on the sentience strat than man, which is a great case for man being of and a part of the natural world-- no gods needed.

Personality is a phenomenon of the brain. Remove sections of the brain and the "self" changes as well. Apparently your eternal soul is at the mercy of a few pounds of grey jelly, because the soul cannot override the impact to the brain and the change in personality that attends that impact. The soul must be fairly weak.

This is a perfectly valid explanation for emotions, and it doesn't require the mumbo-jumbo of gods to explain it.

Non-material concepts are not fully non-material. You need a brain to substantiate them. Damage or impact to the brain directly affects the development and delivery of the concepts. You are simply assuming a spiritual nature for these things, and not submitting any case to support it. I am submitting they are the effects of the brain along with neurons and chemicals within the brain, and I can demonstrate how they can be manipulated by physical impact.

By way of example, I can

1. end all thought by killing that brain
2. create an emotion by chemical inducement of that brain
3. limit the thought and emotion of the brain by removing sections of it.

All the poetry about feelings and spirit and so on -- reside only in the brain. Remove it, and away it all goes. All of it. Even belief in gawds.

Now would be the appropriate time to demonstrate the asserted "soul", and the unique gawds who supplied the spiritual source, which religionists assert is the actual reason emotions exist.

You can do that, right?

For those of us who believe there is life after death, reason tells us that we have within us something that is capable of existence separate from the body. We call this the soul. It is the soul that contains our mind and personality, and indeed the body can either interfere with or promote the will of the soul. It is the soul, not the brain and its chemicals, that give physical animation to personality and choices. In this life, the soul presents itself (makes itself known) through the body.

No. You have claimed it. That is all you have done. I have to take it on faith.

I haven't got a clue what a "soul" is. I don't know if there is such a thing. When I say "we don't know" I wasn't excluding myself. But when someone said "this is a soul" you claimed it was just a personality, so I am asking your what a personality is. What chemical process in the brain is the personality and show me the scientific studies to support your claim. If you can't do that, you're just expressing another belief no better than any other belief.

Correct, you haven't got a clue what this "soul" thing is but you insist it exists and apparently must be implemented and managed by one or more gawds.

How interesting that you are certain of something without having a clue about this "thing".

I have only to let you rattle on with things you have no clue about to let you dismantle your own argument..

As I wrote out previously, damage or impact to the brain directly affects the development and delivery of concepts to the brain. You are simply (and by your own admission, cluelessly) assuming a supernatural causation for these things, and not submitting any case to support it. I am submitting they are the effects of the brain along with neurons and chemicals within the brain, and I can demonstrate how they can be manipulated by physical impact.

By way of example, I can

1. end all thought by killing that brain
2. create an emotion by chemical inducement of that brain
3. limit the thought and emotion of the brain by removing sections of it.

How curious that a simple matter of an imbalance of electrolytes in the blood can cause your "soul" thing to be dismantled.

I'm not sure how you translated my statement of "I don't know if there is such a thing" to "I am certain there is such a thing". If you want to make up my part of the discussion, you don't really need me in it. Just let me know and I can back out. Otherwise, perhaps you can respond to what I actually write.

I clean scuba regulators as a second vocation. Part of that is dipping metal parts in a vinegar solution to remove corrosion. This is a weak acid and I dip the parts in a baking soda solution afterwards in order to terminate the chemical reaction of the vinegar interacting with the metal. According to your position, if I crush someone's skull with a hammer, I am just terminating a chemical reaction. Tell me what the difference is between the two actions.

I'm responding to what you wrote. The fact is, damage, injury or chemical inducement to the brain changes our personality. Modern drugs, for example, can provide for changes in both personality and behavior in the treatment of people with depression and other mental illnesses. How would anyone access your "soul" thing to do the same? How odd that your "soul" thing is so easily modified by simply changing body chemistry.

As I noted previously, electrolytes play a major role in many of the body’s major functions. They not only provide energy, balance and stamina but also make healing, digestion and movement possible.

The point is, your "soul" thing is nothing more than an appeal to fear and ignorance regarding the necessary functions of electrolytes that play a similar role in all mammalian species. The minerals found in electrolytic fluid are essential to the formation of new body tissues. They transport electrical charges across the cell membranes, making muscle action possible. They trigger nerve functions and facilitate the transfer of energy within cells. They also maintain the body’s fluid balance.

Regarding some attempt at analogy you were trying to make between scuba regulators and gawd knows what else, did you realize that scuba regulators are not biological organisms?

I said I did not know and you responded that I said I was certain. In short, you were responding to what you wanted to argue against and not to what I wrote. Don't assume you know what I am thinking. I do not believe in your version of god. In fact, the only person right now who is claiming certainty, based solely upon belief I might add, is you.

A chemical reaction is a chemical reaction. Why does it matter whether or not it is biological?

Um, no. Biological organisms react to chemical stimuli and produce reactions in a different way than do inanimate objects.

Have you ever taken an 8th chemistry course? I was literally astounded at your comment.

So astounded you can't seem to come up with a relevant response. My question stands.... Why does it matter?

 

[Hollie]

Personality is the result of chemical processes in the brain that act upon our shared experiences, interactions with the natural world, social and familial interactions, etc.

Your explanation of the concept of a “soul” is insufficient. It's only sufficient for those who have already decided there must be a “soul”. You believe it's okay to assume as decided, the issue of some sort of continuation of the consciousness after death or some other undefined "consciousness" that you hope to connect with one or more gawds.

I have no explanation for "spirits" or the "soul" because the soul remains undemonstrated. I have no properties and characteristics for that which does not exist. I do have a comment about personality, and where that comes from. The sense of self is a higher brain function and it's seen in comparably lesser degrees in lesser animals (i.e., humans are not the only creatures with a sense of "self"). This in and of itself is enough to prove that "selfhood" is a natural phenomenon of higher brain functions. Either that, or your gods have made monkeys and men with a soul each, and that means humans are the especial creation of god. Language, nurturing, survival, industry, and even environmental control all can be attributed to animals lesser on the sentience strat than man, which is a great case for man being of and a part of the natural world-- no gods needed.

Personality is a phenomenon of the brain. Remove sections of the brain and the "self" changes as well. Apparently your eternal soul is at the mercy of a few pounds of grey jelly, because the soul cannot override the impact to the brain and the change in personality that attends that impact. The soul must be fairly weak.

This is a perfectly valid explanation for emotions, and it doesn't require the mumbo-jumbo of gods to explain it.

Non-material concepts are not fully non-material. You need a brain to substantiate them. Damage or impact to the brain directly affects the development and delivery of the concepts. You are simply assuming a spiritual nature for these things, and not submitting any case to support it. I am submitting they are the effects of the brain along with neurons and chemicals within the brain, and I can demonstrate how they can be manipulated by physical impact.

By way of example, I can

1. end all thought by killing that brain
2. create an emotion by chemical inducement of that brain
3. limit the thought and emotion of the brain by removing sections of it.

All the poetry about feelings and spirit and so on -- reside only in the brain. Remove it, and away it all goes. All of it. Even belief in gawds.

Now would be the appropriate time to demonstrate the asserted "soul", and the unique gawds who supplied the spiritual source, which religionists assert is the actual reason emotions exist.

You can do that, right?

For those of us who believe there is life after death, reason tells us that we have within us something that is capable of existence separate from the body. We call this the soul. It is the soul that contains our mind and personality, and indeed the body can either interfere with or promote the will of the soul. It is the soul, not the brain and its chemicals, that give physical animation to personality and choices. In this life, the soul presents itself (makes itself known) through the body.

Actually, its the brain that contains what is described as mind and personality. You need your brain to resolve such abstract concepts. Damage, injury or chemical inducement to the brain changes both your mind and your personality.

So yet again, we're left with nothing to substantiate any "soul" thing. For that matter, your entire belief in a "soul" derives from your religious ideology. Had you been raised in a cultural / ideological environment without such concepts of "souls", you would not be making any such argument.

You keep making this same unsupported claim. During the course of any life there are going to be all kinds of experiences which change the chemistry of the brain. Dangerous conditions, surprises, ingestion of various chemicals. All kinds of things and everyone experiences them to one extent or another. I think it safe to say you are no exception. Have you ever not been you?

I keep making the totally supportable claim that personality resides in the brain and that physical impact or chemical inducement can change the brain and thus change personality.

Are you aware that medical science has drugs that can can alter mood, behavior and personality?

So, let's get back to this "soul" you claim exists. How do we test for the "soul"? What are the properties of the "soul"? And further, with this "soul" being a function of your gawds, let's start with you supporting your argument for gawds before we move on to the gawd implanted "soul"

 

[PratchettFan]

Personality is the result of chemical processes in the brain that act upon our shared experiences, interactions with the natural world, social and familial interactions, etc.

Your explanation of the concept of a “soul” is insufficient. It's only sufficient for those who have already decided there must be a “soul”. You believe it's okay to assume as decided, the issue of some sort of continuation of the consciousness after death or some other undefined "consciousness" that you hope to connect with one or more gawds.

I have no explanation for "spirits" or the "soul" because the soul remains undemonstrated. I have no properties and characteristics for that which does not exist. I do have a comment about personality, and where that comes from. The sense of self is a higher brain function and it's seen in comparably lesser degrees in lesser animals (i.e., humans are not the only creatures with a sense of "self"). This in and of itself is enough to prove that "selfhood" is a natural phenomenon of higher brain functions. Either that, or your gods have made monkeys and men with a soul each, and that means humans are the especial creation of god. Language, nurturing, survival, industry, and even environmental control all can be attributed to animals lesser on the sentience strat than man, which is a great case for man being of and a part of the natural world-- no gods needed.

Personality is a phenomenon of the brain. Remove sections of the brain and the "self" changes as well. Apparently your eternal soul is at the mercy of a few pounds of grey jelly, because the soul cannot override the impact to the brain and the change in personality that attends that impact. The soul must be fairly weak.

This is a perfectly valid explanation for emotions, and it doesn't require the mumbo-jumbo of gods to explain it.

Non-material concepts are not fully non-material. You need a brain to substantiate them. Damage or impact to the brain directly affects the development and delivery of the concepts. You are simply assuming a spiritual nature for these things, and not submitting any case to support it. I am submitting they are the effects of the brain along with neurons and chemicals within the brain, and I can demonstrate how they can be manipulated by physical impact.

By way of example, I can

1. end all thought by killing that brain
2. create an emotion by chemical inducement of that brain
3. limit the thought and emotion of the brain by removing sections of it.

All the poetry about feelings and spirit and so on -- reside only in the brain. Remove it, and away it all goes. All of it. Even belief in gawds.

Now would be the appropriate time to demonstrate the asserted "soul", and the unique gawds who supplied the spiritual source, which religionists assert is the actual reason emotions exist.

You can do that, right?

For those of us who believe there is life after death, reason tells us that we have within us something that is capable of existence separate from the body. We call this the soul. It is the soul that contains our mind and personality, and indeed the body can either interfere with or promote the will of the soul. It is the soul, not the brain and its chemicals, that give physical animation to personality and choices. In this life, the soul presents itself (makes itself known) through the body.

Actually, its the brain that contains what is described as mind and personality. You need your brain to resolve such abstract concepts. Damage, injury or chemical inducement to the brain changes both your mind and your personality.

So yet again, we're left with nothing to substantiate any "soul" thing. For that matter, your entire belief in a "soul" derives from your religious ideology. Had you been raised in a cultural / ideological environment without such concepts of "souls", you would not be making any such argument.

You keep making this same unsupported claim. During the course of any life there are going to be all kinds of experiences which change the chemistry of the brain. Dangerous conditions, surprises, ingestion of various chemicals. All kinds of things and everyone experiences them to one extent or another. I think it safe to say you are no exception. Have you ever not been you?

I keep making the totally supportable claim that personality resides in the brain and that physical impact or chemical inducement can change the brain and thus change personality.

Are you aware that medical science has drugs that can can alter mood, behavior and personality?

So, let's get back to this "soul" you claim exists. How do we test for the "soul"? What are the properties of the "soul"? And further, with this "soul" being a function of your gawds, let's start with you supporting your argument for gawds before we move on to the gawd implanted "soul"

I never once said a soul exists. I said I don't know if it exists. If it does, I don't know what it is or how to test for it. I don't have to support a claim I have never made.

So back to your claim. I ask again, have you ever not been you? Regardless of whether your mood, behavior or actions changed, have you ever not been what you have always thought of as you?

 

[Hollie]

Personality is the result of chemical processes in the brain that act upon our shared experiences, interactions with the natural world, social and familial interactions, etc.

Your explanation of the concept of a “soul” is insufficient. It's only sufficient for those who have already decided there must be a “soul”. You believe it's okay to assume as decided, the issue of some sort of continuation of the consciousness after death or some other undefined "consciousness" that you hope to connect with one or more gawds.

I have no explanation for "spirits" or the "soul" because the soul remains undemonstrated. I have no properties and characteristics for that which does not exist. I do have a comment about personality, and where that comes from. The sense of self is a higher brain function and it's seen in comparably lesser degrees in lesser animals (i.e., humans are not the only creatures with a sense of "self"). This in and of itself is enough to prove that "selfhood" is a natural phenomenon of higher brain functions. Either that, or your gods have made monkeys and men with a soul each, and that means humans are the especial creation of god. Language, nurturing, survival, industry, and even environmental control all can be attributed to animals lesser on the sentience strat than man, which is a great case for man being of and a part of the natural world-- no gods needed.

Personality is a phenomenon of the brain. Remove sections of the brain and the "self" changes as well. Apparently your eternal soul is at the mercy of a few pounds of grey jelly, because the soul cannot override the impact to the brain and the change in personality that attends that impact. The soul must be fairly weak.

This is a perfectly valid explanation for emotions, and it doesn't require the mumbo-jumbo of gods to explain it.

Non-material concepts are not fully non-material. You need a brain to substantiate them. Damage or impact to the brain directly affects the development and delivery of the concepts. You are simply assuming a spiritual nature for these things, and not submitting any case to support it. I am submitting they are the effects of the brain along with neurons and chemicals within the brain, and I can demonstrate how they can be manipulated by physical impact.

By way of example, I can

1. end all thought by killing that brain
2. create an emotion by chemical inducement of that brain
3. limit the thought and emotion of the brain by removing sections of it.

All the poetry about feelings and spirit and so on -- reside only in the brain. Remove it, and away it all goes. All of it. Even belief in gawds.

Now would be the appropriate time to demonstrate the asserted "soul", and the unique gawds who supplied the spiritual source, which religionists assert is the actual reason emotions exist.

You can do that, right?

For those of us who believe there is life after death, reason tells us that we have within us something that is capable of existence separate from the body. We call this the soul. It is the soul that contains our mind and personality, and indeed the body can either interfere with or promote the will of the soul. It is the soul, not the brain and its chemicals, that give physical animation to personality and choices. In this life, the soul presents itself (makes itself known) through the body.

Correct, you haven't got a clue what this "soul" thing is but you insist it exists and apparently must be implemented and managed by one or more gawds.

How interesting that you are certain of something without having a clue about this "thing".

I have only to let you rattle on with things you have no clue about to let you dismantle your own argument..

As I wrote out previously, damage or impact to the brain directly affects the development and delivery of concepts to the brain. You are simply (and by your own admission, cluelessly) assuming a supernatural causation for these things, and not submitting any case to support it. I am submitting they are the effects of the brain along with neurons and chemicals within the brain, and I can demonstrate how they can be manipulated by physical impact.

By way of example, I can

1. end all thought by killing that brain
2. create an emotion by chemical inducement of that brain
3. limit the thought and emotion of the brain by removing sections of it.

How curious that a simple matter of an imbalance of electrolytes in the blood can cause your "soul" thing to be dismantled.

I'm not sure how you translated my statement of "I don't know if there is such a thing" to "I am certain there is such a thing". If you want to make up my part of the discussion, you don't really need me in it. Just let me know and I can back out. Otherwise, perhaps you can respond to what I actually write.

I clean scuba regulators as a second vocation. Part of that is dipping metal parts in a vinegar solution to remove corrosion. This is a weak acid and I dip the parts in a baking soda solution afterwards in order to terminate the chemical reaction of the vinegar interacting with the metal. According to your position, if I crush someone's skull with a hammer, I am just terminating a chemical reaction. Tell me what the difference is between the two actions.

I'm responding to what you wrote. The fact is, damage, injury or chemical inducement to the brain changes our personality. Modern drugs, for example, can provide for changes in both personality and behavior in the treatment of people with depression and other mental illnesses. How would anyone access your "soul" thing to do the same? How odd that your "soul" thing is so easily modified by simply changing body chemistry.

As I noted previously, electrolytes play a major role in many of the body’s major functions. They not only provide energy, balance and stamina but also make healing, digestion and movement possible.

The point is, your "soul" thing is nothing more than an appeal to fear and ignorance regarding the necessary functions of electrolytes that play a similar role in all mammalian species. The minerals found in electrolytic fluid are essential to the formation of new body tissues. They transport electrical charges across the cell membranes, making muscle action possible. They trigger nerve functions and facilitate the transfer of energy within cells. They also maintain the body’s fluid balance.

Regarding some attempt at analogy you were trying to make between scuba regulators and gawd knows what else, did you realize that scuba regulators are not biological organisms?

I said I did not know and you responded that I said I was certain. In short, you were responding to what you wanted to argue against and not to what I wrote. Don't assume you know what I am thinking. I do not believe in your version of god. In fact, the only person right now who is claiming certainty, based solely upon belief I might add, is you.

A chemical reaction is a chemical reaction. Why does it matter whether or not it is biological?

Um, no. Biological organisms react to chemical stimuli and produce reactions in a different way than do inanimate objects.

Have you ever taken an 8th chemistry course? I was literally astounded at your comment.

So astounded you can't seem to come up with a relevant response. My question stands.... Why does it matter?

I just gave you the relevant response. Various chemicals will have affects on the function of the brain that will have no affect on your scuba gear.

Is that difficult to understand? A drug such as ecstasy will change human behavior in a way that won't be observed on scuba gear. That's because biological organisms are different than inanimate objects.

 

[Hollie]

Personality is the result of chemical processes in the brain that act upon our shared experiences, interactions with the natural world, social and familial interactions, etc.

Your explanation of the concept of a “soul” is insufficient. It's only sufficient for those who have already decided there must be a “soul”. You believe it's okay to assume as decided, the issue of some sort of continuation of the consciousness after death or some other undefined "consciousness" that you hope to connect with one or more gawds.

I have no explanation for "spirits" or the "soul" because the soul remains undemonstrated. I have no properties and characteristics for that which does not exist. I do have a comment about personality, and where that comes from. The sense of self is a higher brain function and it's seen in comparably lesser degrees in lesser animals (i.e., humans are not the only creatures with a sense of "self"). This in and of itself is enough to prove that "selfhood" is a natural phenomenon of higher brain functions. Either that, or your gods have made monkeys and men with a soul each, and that means humans are the especial creation of god. Language, nurturing, survival, industry, and even environmental control all can be attributed to animals lesser on the sentience strat than man, which is a great case for man being of and a part of the natural world-- no gods needed.

Personality is a phenomenon of the brain. Remove sections of the brain and the "self" changes as well. Apparently your eternal soul is at the mercy of a few pounds of grey jelly, because the soul cannot override the impact to the brain and the change in personality that attends that impact. The soul must be fairly weak.

This is a perfectly valid explanation for emotions, and it doesn't require the mumbo-jumbo of gods to explain it.

Non-material concepts are not fully non-material. You need a brain to substantiate them. Damage or impact to the brain directly affects the development and delivery of the concepts. You are simply assuming a spiritual nature for these things, and not submitting any case to support it. I am submitting they are the effects of the brain along with neurons and chemicals within the brain, and I can demonstrate how they can be manipulated by physical impact.

By way of example, I can

1. end all thought by killing that brain
2. create an emotion by chemical inducement of that brain
3. limit the thought and emotion of the brain by removing sections of it.

All the poetry about feelings and spirit and so on -- reside only in the brain. Remove it, and away it all goes. All of it. Even belief in gawds.

Now would be the appropriate time to demonstrate the asserted "soul", and the unique gawds who supplied the spiritual source, which religionists assert is the actual reason emotions exist.

You can do that, right?

For those of us who believe there is life after death, reason tells us that we have within us something that is capable of existence separate from the body. We call this the soul. It is the soul that contains our mind and personality, and indeed the body can either interfere with or promote the will of the soul. It is the soul, not the brain and its chemicals, that give physical animation to personality and choices. In this life, the soul presents itself (makes itself known) through the body.

Actually, its the brain that contains what is described as mind and personality. You need your brain to resolve such abstract concepts. Damage, injury or chemical inducement to the brain changes both your mind and your personality.

So yet again, we're left with nothing to substantiate any "soul" thing. For that matter, your entire belief in a "soul" derives from your religious ideology. Had you been raised in a cultural / ideological environment without such concepts of "souls", you would not be making any such argument.

You keep making this same unsupported claim. During the course of any life there are going to be all kinds of experiences which change the chemistry of the brain. Dangerous conditions, surprises, ingestion of various chemicals. All kinds of things and everyone experiences them to one extent or another. I think it safe to say you are no exception. Have you ever not been you?

I keep making the totally supportable claim that personality resides in the brain and that physical impact or chemical inducement can change the brain and thus change personality.

Are you aware that medical science has drugs that can can alter mood, behavior and personality?

So, let's get back to this "soul" you claim exists. How do we test for the "soul"? What are the properties of the "soul"? And further, with this "soul" being a function of your gawds, let's start with you supporting your argument for gawds before we move on to the gawd implanted "soul"

I never once said a soul exists. I said I don't know if it exists. If it does, I don't know what it is or how to test for it. I don't have to support a claim I have never made.

So back to your claim. I ask again, have you ever not been you? Regardless of whether your mood, behavior or actions changed, have you ever not been what you have always thought of as you?

You're confused as to what argument you're hoping to make. You're confusing physical appearance and such things as "souls"

Let's get back to your confusion regarding biological organisms and inanimate objects. Why are you suggesting that there is no difference in reaction and response to chemical stimulation between biological organisms and scuba regulators?

 

[PratchettFan]

For those of us who believe there is life after death, reason tells us that we have within us something that is capable of existence separate from the body. We call this the soul. It is the soul that contains our mind and personality, and indeed the body can either interfere with or promote the will of the soul. It is the soul, not the brain and its chemicals, that give physical animation to personality and choices. In this life, the soul presents itself (makes itself known) through the body.

I'm not sure how you translated my statement of "I don't know if there is such a thing" to "I am certain there is such a thing". If you want to make up my part of the discussion, you don't really need me in it. Just let me know and I can back out. Otherwise, perhaps you can respond to what I actually write.

I clean scuba regulators as a second vocation. Part of that is dipping metal parts in a vinegar solution to remove corrosion. This is a weak acid and I dip the parts in a baking soda solution afterwards in order to terminate the chemical reaction of the vinegar interacting with the metal. According to your position, if I crush someone's skull with a hammer, I am just terminating a chemical reaction. Tell me what the difference is between the two actions.

I'm responding to what you wrote. The fact is, damage, injury or chemical inducement to the brain changes our personality. Modern drugs, for example, can provide for changes in both personality and behavior in the treatment of people with depression and other mental illnesses. How would anyone access your "soul" thing to do the same? How odd that your "soul" thing is so easily modified by simply changing body chemistry.

As I noted previously, electrolytes play a major role in many of the body’s major functions. They not only provide energy, balance and stamina but also make healing, digestion and movement possible.

The point is, your "soul" thing is nothing more than an appeal to fear and ignorance regarding the necessary functions of electrolytes that play a similar role in all mammalian species. The minerals found in electrolytic fluid are essential to the formation of new body tissues. They transport electrical charges across the cell membranes, making muscle action possible. They trigger nerve functions and facilitate the transfer of energy within cells. They also maintain the body’s fluid balance.

Regarding some attempt at analogy you were trying to make between scuba regulators and gawd knows what else, did you realize that scuba regulators are not biological organisms?

I said I did not know and you responded that I said I was certain. In short, you were responding to what you wanted to argue against and not to what I wrote. Don't assume you know what I am thinking. I do not believe in your version of god. In fact, the only person right now who is claiming certainty, based solely upon belief I might add, is you.

A chemical reaction is a chemical reaction. Why does it matter whether or not it is biological?

Um, no. Biological organisms react to chemical stimuli and produce reactions in a different way than do inanimate objects.

Have you ever taken an 8th chemistry course? I was literally astounded at your comment.

So astounded you can't seem to come up with a relevant response. My question stands.... Why does it matter?

I just gave you the relevant response. Various chemicals will have affects on the function of the brain that will have no affect on your scuba gear.

Is that difficult to understand? A drug such as ecstasy will change human behavior in a way that won't be observed on scuba gear. That's because biological organisms are different than inanimate objects.

No. You didn't. So let me ask it again and try to read the words.... Why does it matter? I will concede that they are different chemical processes. But that does not answer the question.... so what? If you prefer, do you consider the chemical process you call "me" more important than the chemical process you call "lighting a match" and, if so, why?

 

[PratchettFan]

For those of us who believe there is life after death, reason tells us that we have within us something that is capable of existence separate from the body. We call this the soul. It is the soul that contains our mind and personality, and indeed the body can either interfere with or promote the will of the soul. It is the soul, not the brain and its chemicals, that give physical animation to personality and choices. In this life, the soul presents itself (makes itself known) through the body.

Actually, its the brain that contains what is described as mind and personality. You need your brain to resolve such abstract concepts. Damage, injury or chemical inducement to the brain changes both your mind and your personality.

So yet again, we're left with nothing to substantiate any "soul" thing. For that matter, your entire belief in a "soul" derives from your religious ideology. Had you been raised in a cultural / ideological environment without such concepts of "souls", you would not be making any such argument.

You keep making this same unsupported claim. During the course of any life there are going to be all kinds of experiences which change the chemistry of the brain. Dangerous conditions, surprises, ingestion of various chemicals. All kinds of things and everyone experiences them to one extent or another. I think it safe to say you are no exception. Have you ever not been you?

I keep making the totally supportable claim that personality resides in the brain and that physical impact or chemical inducement can change the brain and thus change personality.

Are you aware that medical science has drugs that can can alter mood, behavior and personality?

So, let's get back to this "soul" you claim exists. How do we test for the "soul"? What are the properties of the "soul"? And further, with this "soul" being a function of your gawds, let's start with you supporting your argument for gawds before we move on to the gawd implanted "soul"

I never once said a soul exists. I said I don't know if it exists. If it does, I don't know what it is or how to test for it. I don't have to support a claim I have never made.

So back to your claim. I ask again, have you ever not been you? Regardless of whether your mood, behavior or actions changed, have you ever not been what you have always thought of as you?

You're confused as to what argument you're hoping to make. You're confusing physical appearance and such things as "souls"

Let's get back to your confusion regarding biological organisms and inanimate objects. Why are you suggesting that there is no difference in reaction and response to chemical stimulation between biological organisms and scuba regulators?

It really isn't that hard of a question. Why don't you want to answer it? I can. I have never not been me. Have you ever not been you?

 

[Hollie]

I'm responding to what you wrote. The fact is, damage, injury or chemical inducement to the brain changes our personality. Modern drugs, for example, can provide for changes in both personality and behavior in the treatment of people with depression and other mental illnesses. How would anyone access your "soul" thing to do the same? How odd that your "soul" thing is so easily modified by simply changing body chemistry.

As I noted previously, electrolytes play a major role in many of the body’s major functions. They not only provide energy, balance and stamina but also make healing, digestion and movement possible.

The point is, your "soul" thing is nothing more than an appeal to fear and ignorance regarding the necessary functions of electrolytes that play a similar role in all mammalian species. The minerals found in electrolytic fluid are essential to the formation of new body tissues. They transport electrical charges across the cell membranes, making muscle action possible. They trigger nerve functions and facilitate the transfer of energy within cells. They also maintain the body’s fluid balance.

Regarding some attempt at analogy you were trying to make between scuba regulators and gawd knows what else, did you realize that scuba regulators are not biological organisms?

I said I did not know and you responded that I said I was certain. In short, you were responding to what you wanted to argue against and not to what I wrote. Don't assume you know what I am thinking. I do not believe in your version of god. In fact, the only person right now who is claiming certainty, based solely upon belief I might add, is you.

A chemical reaction is a chemical reaction. Why does it matter whether or not it is biological?

Um, no. Biological organisms react to chemical stimuli and produce reactions in a different way than do inanimate objects.

Have you ever taken an 8th chemistry course? I was literally astounded at your comment.

So astounded you can't seem to come up with a relevant response. My question stands.... Why does it matter?

I just gave you the relevant response. Various chemicals will have affects on the function of the brain that will have no affect on your scuba gear.

Is that difficult to understand? A drug such as ecstasy will change human behavior in a way that won't be observed on scuba gear. That's because biological organisms are different than inanimate objects.

No. You didn't. So let me ask it again and try to read the words.... Why does it matter? I will concede that they are different chemical processes. But that does not answer the question.... so what? If you prefer, do you consider the chemical process you call "me" more important than the chemical process you call "lighting a match" and, if so, why?

For just a moment, stop sidestepping and try to address the challenges to your statements.

How is it possible that you can confuse processes in the brain that are manipulated by chemical stimuli with inanimate objects?

 

[Hollie]

Actually, its the brain that contains what is described as mind and personality. You need your brain to resolve such abstract concepts. Damage, injury or chemical inducement to the brain changes both your mind and your personality.

So yet again, we're left with nothing to substantiate any "soul" thing. For that matter, your entire belief in a "soul" derives from your religious ideology. Had you been raised in a cultural / ideological environment without such concepts of "souls", you would not be making any such argument.

You keep making this same unsupported claim. During the course of any life there are going to be all kinds of experiences which change the chemistry of the brain. Dangerous conditions, surprises, ingestion of various chemicals. All kinds of things and everyone experiences them to one extent or another. I think it safe to say you are no exception. Have you ever not been you?

I keep making the totally supportable claim that personality resides in the brain and that physical impact or chemical inducement can change the brain and thus change personality.

Are you aware that medical science has drugs that can can alter mood, behavior and personality?

So, let's get back to this "soul" you claim exists. How do we test for the "soul"? What are the properties of the "soul"? And further, with this "soul" being a function of your gawds, let's start with you supporting your argument for gawds before we move on to the gawd implanted "soul"

I never once said a soul exists. I said I don't know if it exists. If it does, I don't know what it is or how to test for it. I don't have to support a claim I have never made.

So back to your claim. I ask again, have you ever not been you? Regardless of whether your mood, behavior or actions changed, have you ever not been what you have always thought of as you?

You're confused as to what argument you're hoping to make. You're confusing physical appearance and such things as "souls"

Let's get back to your confusion regarding biological organisms and inanimate objects. Why are you suggesting that there is no difference in reaction and response to chemical stimulation between biological organisms and scuba regulators?

It really isn't that hard of a question. Why don't you want to answer it? I can. I have never not been me. Have you ever not been you?

It's a simple question that has been answered repeatedly.

Non-material concepts are not fully non-material. You need a brain to substantiate them. Damage or impact to the brain directly affects the development and delivery of the concepts. You are simply assuming a spiritual nature for these things, and not submitting any case to support it. I am submitting they are the effects of the brain along with neurons and chemicals within the brain, and I can demonstrate how they can be manipulated by physical impact.

By way of example, I can

1. end all thought by killing that brain
2. create an emotion by chemical inducement of that brain
3. limit the thought and emotion of the brain by removing sections of it.

All the poetry about feelings and spirit and so on -- reside only in the brain. Remove it, and away it all goes. All of it. Even belief in gawds.

 

[PratchettFan]

I said I did not know and you responded that I said I was certain. In short, you were responding to what you wanted to argue against and not to what I wrote. Don't assume you know what I am thinking. I do not believe in your version of god. In fact, the only person right now who is claiming certainty, based solely upon belief I might add, is you.

A chemical reaction is a chemical reaction. Why does it matter whether or not it is biological?

Um, no. Biological organisms react to chemical stimuli and produce reactions in a different way than do inanimate objects.

Have you ever taken an 8th chemistry course? I was literally astounded at your comment.

So astounded you can't seem to come up with a relevant response. My question stands.... Why does it matter?

I just gave you the relevant response. Various chemicals will have affects on the function of the brain that will have no affect on your scuba gear.

Is that difficult to understand? A drug such as ecstasy will change human behavior in a way that won't be observed on scuba gear. That's because biological organisms are different than inanimate objects.

No. You didn't. So let me ask it again and try to read the words.... Why does it matter? I will concede that they are different chemical processes. But that does not answer the question.... so what? If you prefer, do you consider the chemical process you call "me" more important than the chemical process you call "lighting a match" and, if so, why?

For just a moment, stop sidestepping and try to address the challenges to your statements.

How is it possible that you can confuse processes in the brain that are manipulated by chemical stimuli with inanimate objects?

I do not. Why does it matter?

 

[PratchettFan]

You keep making this same unsupported claim. During the course of any life there are going to be all kinds of experiences which change the chemistry of the brain. Dangerous conditions, surprises, ingestion of various chemicals. All kinds of things and everyone experiences them to one extent or another. I think it safe to say you are no exception. Have you ever not been you?

I keep making the totally supportable claim that personality resides in the brain and that physical impact or chemical inducement can change the brain and thus change personality.

Are you aware that medical science has drugs that can can alter mood, behavior and personality?

So, let's get back to this "soul" you claim exists. How do we test for the "soul"? What are the properties of the "soul"? And further, with this "soul" being a function of your gawds, let's start with you supporting your argument for gawds before we move on to the gawd implanted "soul"

I never once said a soul exists. I said I don't know if it exists. If it does, I don't know what it is or how to test for it. I don't have to support a claim I have never made.

So back to your claim. I ask again, have you ever not been you? Regardless of whether your mood, behavior or actions changed, have you ever not been what you have always thought of as you?

You're confused as to what argument you're hoping to make. You're confusing physical appearance and such things as "souls"

Let's get back to your confusion regarding biological organisms and inanimate objects. Why are you suggesting that there is no difference in reaction and response to chemical stimulation between biological organisms and scuba regulators?

It really isn't that hard of a question. Why don't you want to answer it? I can. I have never not been me. Have you ever not been you?

It's a simple question that has been answered repeatedly.

Non-material concepts are not fully non-material. You need a brain to substantiate them. Damage or impact to the brain directly affects the development and delivery of the concepts. You are simply assuming a spiritual nature for these things, and not submitting any case to support it. I am submitting they are the effects of the brain along with neurons and chemicals within the brain, and I can demonstrate how they can be manipulated by physical impact.

By way of example, I can

1. end all thought by killing that brain
2. create an emotion by chemical inducement of that brain
3. limit the thought and emotion of the brain by removing sections of it.

All the poetry about feelings and spirit and so on -- reside only in the brain. Remove it, and away it all goes. All of it. Even belief in gawds.

You have not answered the question at all. It requires only a yes or a no. It does not require dot points. Have you ever not been you?