Clapper’s Lie (NSA Director)

[Antares]

During a Senate Intelligence Committee hearing on March 12 of this year, Ron Wyden asked Director of National Intelligence James Clapper a simple question: “Does the NSA collect any type of data at all on millions or hundreds of millions of Americans?”

“No, sir,” Clapper shot back without a pause. “There are cases where they could inadvertently, perhaps, collect, but not wittingly.” Why so? Because “in the case of NSA and CIA, there are strictures against tracking American citizens in the United States for foreign intelligence purposes — and that’s what those agencies are set up to do.”

Clapper?s Lie | National Review Online

Time for a new Director.

 

[Mad Scientist]

I want to thank General Clapper for his Service!

 

[tinydancer]

So many lies. So many liars.

 

[Ravi]

How is that a lie, exactly?

Do you people seriously believe this IT tech had the authority to wiretap the president as he has claimed?

 

[g5000]

I can't help but notice National Review mentions Senator Wyden's name no less than four times, and not once do they mention he is a Democrat.

Wyden has been hammering away at this issue for years.

 

[g5000]

Was the Director under oath?

That would be lying to Congress if he were.

 

[Ravi]

Was the Director under oath?

That would be lying to Congress if he were.

Is the NSA collecting data on milliions or hundreds of milliions of Americans?

 

[bendog]

Was the Director under oath?

That would be lying to Congress if he were.

Is the NSA collecting data on milliions or hundreds of milliions of Americans?

At most they'd be collecting call lists (or email addys) of millions of us and cross indexing those for calls to/from a suspected site (or emails to), and further indexing the hits. Or collecting all facebooks accounts that had a friend in Pak or other such places. And they can apparantly physically track suspects overseas or even here. (with warrants)

I'm sure some posters would consider this collecting data on millions. I'm sure they are somehow shocked to learn this has been going on.

 

[g5000]

Was the Director under oath?

That would be lying to Congress if he were.

Is the NSA collecting data on milliions or hundreds of milliions of Americans?

Yes.

 

[g5000]

I'm watching the video of the March 12 hearing right now.

It appears Clapper was not sworn in.

Here is the video of the hearing: Integrated Senate Video Player

If that link does not work, the list of Senate Intelligence hearings are here: U.S. Senate Select Committee on Intelligence

The advance statement for the record Director Clapper submitted is here: http://www.intelligence.senate.gov/130312/clapper.pdf

 

[g5000]

Senator Wyden's turn begins at 01:28:03 in the video to which I linked earlier.

He starts right in asking about electronically tracking an American inside the United States. A question Wyden had asked Clapper a year prior which Clapper had deferred by saying he needed to confer with lawyers about.

Wyden's concern was about how much evidence was required to begin tracking a citizen inside the US, and he returns to this question he had pursued last year.

Wyden says "there are some fundamental questions about the balance between security and liberty that transcend and justify the question".

Clapper keeps trying to blow off the question, and attempts to divert the question to FBI director Mueller.

Mueller answers the question by saying the standard for evidence to get a warrant to track a citizen is "up in the air".

Wyden is dissatisfied with this answer.

Wyden's turn then ends.

His turn comes back around at 02:08:30.

Wyden then says the NSA director was at a conference last summer and, "he was asked a question about surveillance of Americans. He replied, and I quote here, 'The story that we have millions or hundreds of millions of dossiers on people is completely false.'"

So Wyden then says he does not know what is meant by "dossiers" in this context. And so he asks a direct question at 02:09:03, "What I wanted to see is if you can give me a yes or now answer to the question, does the NSA collect any type of data at all on millions or hundreds of millions of Americans?"

He stops.

Clapper responds, "No, sir."

Wyden, "It does not?"

Clapper, "Not wittingly. There are cases where they could inadvertently, perhaps, collect, but not wittingly."

Wyden's turn ends.

 

[bendog]

Was the Director under oath?

That would be lying to Congress if he were.

Is the NSA collecting data on milliions or hundreds of milliions of Americans?

Yes.

I'm not doing a clinton here, but really asking. Is collecting data the same thing as taking a list, indexing it against something, then keeping the list of the hits and discarding the original list which is realtively useless. There may be a logical reason to collect another list of all calls made by millions on a future date to index again, but against a more current or different list. Is that "collecting data on millions of Americans?"

I'm more than cool with anyone disagreeing. But to me Wyden's question was more about "are you compiling dossiers on millions of Americans?" Of course the NSA shouldn't do that. There are maybe a couple of hundred or maybe a thousand people in America there is some suspicion about. If they're compiling dossiers on millions of Americans they're the Stasi, and interested in poltical control rather than security. If they're tracing the whereabouts and contacts of people suspected of being terrorists, they're doing their job. The question, imo, is why weren't they watching the two punks in Boston.

Of course, I wouldn't be terribly upset if they waterboarded the hell out of the live one, and gave him to putin for dioxing. But, I think the FBI will eventually squeeze him dry, and he'll go insane at supermax, which is ok too, and probably morally better.

 

[Ravi]

I don't see entering data into a computer to discover patterns as being "collecting data on millions or hundreds of millions" of Americans.

I am also unsure why the question was asked as the answer would supposedly have been classified information which both the senator and the nsa chief are forbidden from revealing.

 

[g5000]

Is the NSA collecting data on milliions or hundreds of milliions of Americans?

Yes.

I'm not doing a clinton here, but really asking. Is collecting data the same thing as taking a list, indexing it against something, then keeping the list of the hits and discarding the original list which is realtively useless. There may be a logical reason to collect another list of all calls made by millions on a future date to index again, but against a more current or different list. Is that "collecting data on millions of Americans?"

I'm more than cool with anyone disagreeing. But to me Wyden's question was more about "are you compiling dossiers on millions of Americans?" Of course the NSA shouldn't do that. There are maybe a couple of hundred or maybe a thousand people in America there is some suspicion about. If they're compiling dossiers on millions of Americans they're the Stasi, and interested in poltical control rather than security. If they're tracing the whereabouts and contacts of people suspected of being terrorists, they're doing their job. The question, imo, is why weren't they watching the two punks in Boston.

Of course, I wouldn't be terribly upset if they waterboarded the hell out of the live one, and gave him to putin for dioxing. But, I think the FBI will eventually squeeze him dry, and he'll go insane at supermax, which is ok too, and probably morally better.

No. It was not about "dossiers". That was a word used by Clapper to throw up smoke. Wyden even said he did not know what "dossiers" meant in that context. So Wyden got more specific. He specifically asked about data collecting.

I don't see entering data into a computer to discover patterns as being "collecting data on millions or hundreds of millions" of Americans.

I am also unsure why the question was asked as the answer would supposedly have been classified information which both the senator and the nsa chief are forbidden from revealing.

"Entering data into a computer". And what "data" would that be?

That would be the phone records of millions of Americans. And where did they get this data?

They took it from the phone companies.

That is the definition of "collecting data on millions or hundreds of milliions of Americans".

 

[g5000]

I am also unsure why the question was asked as the answer would supposedly have been classified information which both the senator and the nsa chief are forbidden from revealing.

I considered this as well.

At the beginning of the hearing, the Chairwoman (Dianne Feinstein) stated no classified information would be discussed during that particular hearing. The one in the video and the one in which Wyden asked the question at issue.

Wyden's question was generic enough so that the answer would not be classified as he did not ask about specific data collecting techniques or the uses of that data.

No one in the room claimed an answer to that question was outside the limits of the unclassified hearing. Not even Clapper.

Wyden just asked if it was being done, and Clapper lied.

 

[bendog]

Well, I'm happy to disagree. But I don't see that "collecting data" is taking a list and comparing it to another list. I don't think the word dossier was a smoke screen, and I actually composed my post using that word before I learned from you that Clapper used the same term. I think Clapper was honestly (to the exent any choreographed hearing is honest) trying to differentiate what the NSA is about to what any american should be worried about.

And to that exent, the kind of thing I worry about is probably actually going on. I suspect insurance companies access the addys of all those who purchase online cigars or wine, or who connect with AA or some social group about addiction. That's a dossier.

 

[g5000]

The taking of millions of Americans' phone records from the phone companies sets a very dangerous precedent. Are you really, really, really sure you want your political opponents wielding that kind of power when the baton is passed?

This is what the GOP should have been asking itself in 2006 when this abuse first came to light, and what the Democrats should be asking themselves now.

Think of all the information about you that is out there. Phone calls, internet searches, political forum posts, medical records...


Totalitarians have a nasty way of finding what they are looking for. Imagine what could be done with one of your political forum or Facebook posts taken out of context.

 

[auditor0007]

I don't see entering data into a computer to discover patterns as being "collecting data on millions or hundreds of millions" of Americans.

I am also unsure why the question was asked as the answer would supposedly have been classified information which both the senator and the nsa chief are forbidden from revealing.

I don't have a problem with any of this. They are doing what they need to be doing. What does cause concern though is this atmosphere of not coming clean, of acting as if they are hiding something. While it makes sense to do what they have been doing, there does need to be oversight. They cannot just be doing whatever they think they need to do without anybody knowing what is going on. And here is where things get tricky, because based on a much of what we are learning, it does seem that many members of Congress actually did know what was going on. Why it is some did know and others were oblivious, I don't know. Maybe it had to do with what committees different members are on, or maybe some of them just weren't paying attention and now this comes to them as a huge shock, when they should have known about it all along.

There are questions that need answering, but I don't see a big smoking gun here. I didn't have a problem with it when Bush was in charge and I don't have a problem with it now. Now, if new information comes out that they are actually listening in on anyone and everyone without warrants, then we have a different situation, but as of yet, this does not seem to be the case.

 

[Ravi]

Well, I'm happy to disagree. But I don't see that "collecting data" is taking a list and comparing it to another list. I don't think the word dossier was a smoke screen, and I actually composed my post using that word before I learned from you that Clapper used the same term. I think Clapper was honestly (to the exent any choreographed hearing is honest) trying to differentiate what the NSA is about to what any american should be worried about.

And to that exent, the kind of thing I worry about is probably actually going on. I suspect insurance companies access the addys of all those who purchase online cigars or wine, or who connect with AA or some social group about addiction. That's a dossier.

Florida is under the gun for keeping dossiers on who gets what prescription drugs. Specifically, the names of the people that get certain types of prescriptions are kept in a data base.

They wouldn't be under the gun if they tracked merely patterns of neighborhoods that tended to have a lot of people getting prescribed certain types of drugs.

I think I'm going to have to agree with you on this.

 

[Ravi]

I don't see entering data into a computer to discover patterns as being "collecting data on millions or hundreds of millions" of Americans.

I am also unsure why the question was asked as the answer would supposedly have been classified information which both the senator and the nsa chief are forbidden from revealing.

I don't have a problem with any of this. They are doing what they need to be doing. What does cause concern though is this atmosphere of not coming clean, of acting as if they are hiding something. While it makes sense to do what they have been doing, there does need to be oversight. They cannot just be doing whatever they think they need to do without anybody knowing what is going on. And here is where things get tricky, because based on a much of what we are learning, it does seem that many members of Congress actually did know what was going on. Why it is some did know and others were oblivious, I don't know. Maybe it had to do with what committees different members are on, or maybe some of them just weren't paying attention and now this comes to them as a huge shock, when they should have known about it all along.

There are questions that need answering, but I don't see a big smoking gun here. I didn't have a problem with it when Bush was in charge and I don't have a problem with it now. Now, if new information comes out that they are actually listening in on anyone and everyone without warrants, then we have a different situation, but as of yet, this does not seem to be the case.

I would totally support doing something about FISA, for instance declassifying rules after a certain amount of time. Having a secret court decide things on an ongoing basis seems rather bad.