Conservatives Battle Liberals In The Classroom

[rdean]

Notice that when it comes to solutions, the conservative answer is always either "blow it up" or "make it better".

 

[Bfgrn]

Looks like we finally got to Godwin's law!

Who was it again, who said "Moderation in the defense of liberty is no virtue"?

Oh yeah.....Barry Goldwater.

Poseur.

Close...for a pea brain...

I would remind you that extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice! And let me remind you also that moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue.
Barry Goldwater

Hey DUDe...when are you going to engage; or will you spend your life as a spectator?

 

[Oddball]

And let me remind you of your ham-handed invocation of Nazis to attempt to make some incomprehensible point or another, and that you're a poseur of a "libertarian", Jethro.

 

[rdean]

And let me remind you of your ham-handed invocation of Nazis to attempt to make some incomprehensible point or another, and that you're a poseur of a "libertarian", Jethro.

Nazi? Isn't that what conservatives call the President of the United States?

 

[Dr.Traveler]

I agree 110%.

Thanks, though that's a funny thing to say to a Mathematician

I'd be really curious if the folks upset at this "discovery" based approach have any knowledge of the classical methods of teaching mathematics, and by classical I mean Library of Alexandria to mid 1800's. A student that was used to the kind of algorithmic reasoning that the OP seems to advocate over the NCTM would get their teeth kicked in by books like Euclid's Elements and Diophantus' Arithmetica. These are books that some of the greatest minds in history cut their teeth on mathematically. Lincoln himself used the Elements to train his mind for practicing law. Fermat, probably the greatest of the amateur mathematicians used to read the Arithmetica for relaxation.

If you're not familiar with the classical method, you wouldn't give a student a solution, or even a clue how to solve the problem. You'd instead give a student a list of axioms, definitions, and notation, then just hand them a book chock full of problems and say "good luck."

The NCTM is advocating going back to a method that produced some of the greatest scientific minds in history, rather than teaching a student how to pass a standardized test. That may not work for every single student, but it just might be worth a shot.

 

[Oddball]

And let me remind you of your ham-handed invocation of Nazis to attempt to make some incomprehensible point or another, and that you're a poseur of a "libertarian", Jethro.

Nazi? Isn't that what conservatives call the President of the United States?

Your pathetic attempt at deflection is a failure.

 

[rdean]

I agree 110%.

Thanks, though that's a funny thing to say to a Mathematician

I'd be really curious if the folks upset at this "discovery" based approach have any knowledge of the classical methods of teaching mathematics, and by classical I mean Library of Alexandria to mid 1800's. A student that was used to the kind of algorithmic reasoning that the OP seems to advocate over the NCTM would get their teeth kicked in by books like Euclid's Elements and Diophantus' Arithmetica. These are books that some of the greatest minds in history cut their teeth on mathematically. Lincoln himself used the Elements to train his mind for practicing law. Fermat, probably the greatest of the amateur mathematicians used to read the Arithmetica for relaxation.

If you're not familiar with the classical method, you wouldn't give a student a solution, or even a clue how to solve the problem. You'd instead give a student a list of axioms, definitions, and notation, then just hand them a book chock full of problems and say "good luck."

The NCTM is advocating going back to a method that produced some of the greatest scientific minds in history, rather than teaching a student how to pass a standardized test. That may not work for every single student, but it just might be worth a shot.

Yea, except that won't work for "all" students. The real problem with our educational system is that it tries to be all things for all people and fails everyone.

Who could be a great scientist? Probably the top 0.000002% of the top 10%, or less.

We need to set up trade schools. Lay out educational goals. Get over the idea that that you can "teach" genius. Hell, half the country believes evolution isn't "real".

Then when you have rich families who "pull strings" so their kids can "achieve" with mediocre grades, it lowers the worth of the education.

Our system is messed up because it's politicized. Besides, people don't want their kids taught to "think". They want their kids indoctrinated with "ideology".

 

[CrusaderFrank]

College kids leave convinced FDR was a "Great" President

Average unemployment of 17% for 8 whole fucking years is how we measure "Greatness"

 

[Bfgrn]

And let me remind you of your ham-handed invocation of Nazis to attempt to make some incomprehensible point or another, and that you're a poseur of a "libertarian", Jethro.

I'm not surprised at YOUR incomprehension...my argument is way over your head...it was the Nazis that believed like PC in survival of the fittest; Aryan purity... the weak, the disabled, the old and the feeble were discarded as either poison to the gene pool, defective or a burden to society...

If you had been paying attention as you sit in the peanut galley as a spectator of life, you would be aware that I said more than once I am a JFK liberal AND a Goldwater libertarian...in THAT order. There are many things I agree with Goldwater on and there are many things I don't...

You call yourself a libertarian...yet I hear nothing from you to indicate you are anything but a right wing pea brain...you offer as proof a smug "read up on your F. A. Hayek"...yea, a man who had disdain for the term libertarian, but not as much as he had disdain for conservatives...

"Whiggism is historically the correct name for the ideas in which I believe. The more I learn about the evolution of ideas, the more I have become aware that I am simply an unrepentant Old Whig - with the stress on the "old."
F. A. Hayek - Why I Am Not a Conservative

I surmise you are a faux libertarian like Grover Norquist (I have to surmise because you are a spectator that lacks the courage to engage in the debate of ideas)...if that's your idea of a libertarian, then you should "read up on your Mein Kampf..."

“When you know that you're capable of dealing with whatever comes, you have the only security the world has to offer”
Harry Browne

 

[California Girl]

And let me remind you of your ham-handed invocation of Nazis to attempt to make some incomprehensible point or another, and that you're a poseur of a "libertarian", Jethro.

Nazi? Isn't that what conservatives call the President of the United States?

No it isn't. However, I (as an individual) am comfortable calling you 'idiot', if that helps.

 

[Bfgrn]

Looks like we finally got to Godwin's law!

Who was it again, who said "Moderation in the defense of liberty is no virtue"?

Oh yeah.....Barry Goldwater.

Poseur.

LOL! Bfgrn is a thread killer.

This thread was never about education...PC's opening post was merely pretext for her real agenda...pinning Marxism to the left nefariously through Paulo Freire...

The thread died from that point on...PC has no real interest in the outcome of "others"

"We didn't inherit this land from our ancestors, we borrow it from our children."
Lakota Sioux Proverb

 

[rdean]

And let me remind you of your ham-handed invocation of Nazis to attempt to make some incomprehensible point or another, and that you're a poseur of a "libertarian", Jethro.

Nazi? Isn't that what conservatives call the President of the United States?

No it isn't. However, I (as an individual) am comfortable calling you 'idiot', if that helps.

Aren't those signs with Obama wearing a little tiny mustache and photo shopped into wearing a brown uniform with swastikas just another way of calling him a "Nazi"?

Conservatives are so funny. They say one thing, then when you say, “Hey, that’s a terrible thing to say”, they say, but I didn’t say that.

It’s because they are able to ignore the real world and see only their imagined world. But what a terrible world that is. Full of fear and “death panels” and terror lurking around every corner. Sad.

 

[Dr.Traveler]

Yea, except that won't work for "all" students. The real problem with our educational system is that it tries to be all things for all people and fails everyone.

Who could be a great scientist? Probably the top 0.000002% of the top 10%, or less.

We need to set up trade schools. Lay out educational goals. Get over the idea that that you can "teach" genius. Hell, half the country believes evolution isn't "real".

Then when you have rich families who "pull strings" so their kids can "achieve" with mediocre grades, it lowers the worth of the education.

Our system is messed up because it's politicized. Besides, people don't want their kids taught to "think". They want their kids indoctrinated with "ideology".

I agree.

At some point there has to be a reckoning in the school. A point where you say: "This kid wants to learn, this kid doesn't" and be done with it.

I have two brothers. I went on to college, then graduate school, and now hold a Ph'D. I'm pretty happy with the life I have.

My younger brother didn't like school, but he went on to college anyways. He dropped out due to illness and never went back. He now has a job and a family and is happy.

My youngest brother decided that high school was enough for him. He now owns his own house, has a family, a good job, and is a pretty happy guy. He might go back to school one day.

Not everyone needs to go to college. Not everyone wants to. The sooner we realize that, the better off we'll all be.

 

[Dr.Traveler]

This thread was never about education...PC's opening post was merely pretext for her real agenda...pinning Marxism to the left nefariously through Paulo Freire...

The thread died from that point on...PC has no real interest in the outcome of "others"

"We didn't inherit this land from our ancestors, we borrow it from our children."
Lakota Sioux Proverb

I suspect you're right.

 

[Oddball]

Looks like we finally got to Godwin's law!

Who was it again, who said "Moderation in the defense of liberty is no virtue"?

Oh yeah.....Barry Goldwater.

Poseur.

LOL! Bfgrn is a thread killer.

This thread was never about education...PC's opening post was merely pretext for her real agenda...pinning Marxism to the left nefariously through Paulo Freire...

The thread died from that point on...PC has no real interest in the outcome of "others"

"We didn't inherit this land from our ancestors, we borrow it from our children."
Lakota Sioux Proverb

She doen't have to go to the trouble....The left does a good enough job of pinning Marxism to itself.

Subsequently, your Marxist proclivities are exposed by the pretense that you're more concerned with the outcomes of "others" than even they are.

 

[midcan5]

The old 'us versus them' argument, we are good they are bad, what hokum. This topic I know too well being married to a math teacher of twenty plus years and having a math genius son who taught for a short time before saying it is just too aggravating teaching children who have little interest in math. He should have taught at a college level but makes an excellent livelihood programming. PoliticalChic, and the few empty headed wingnuts who chimed in agreement, has a hard time facing the fact teaching is an art and it requires doing what works and trying different things when something is not working. It has nothing to do with right v left. But I think I agree a bit with one conservative when it comes to advanced study and education. Children differ and math is one topic that few like or even comprehend at the advanced levels.

[ame=http://www.amazon.com/Real-Education-Bringing-Americas-Schools/dp/0307405397/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1258391005&sr=1-2]Amazon.com: Real Education: Four Simple Truths for Bringing America's Schools Back to Reality (9780307405395): Charles Murray: Books[/ame]

 

[Bfgrn]

LOL! Bfgrn is a thread killer.

This thread was never about education...PC's opening post was merely pretext for her real agenda...pinning Marxism to the left nefariously through Paulo Freire...

The thread died from that point on...PC has no real interest in the outcome of "others"

"We didn't inherit this land from our ancestors, we borrow it from our children."
Lakota Sioux Proverb

She doen't have to go to the trouble....The left does a good enough job of pinning Marxism to itself.

Subsequently, your Marxist proclivities are exposed by the pretense that you're more concerned with the outcomes of "others" than even they are.

You're right, I forgot...those 45,000 Americans that died last year because they didn't have health insurance were just LAZY...too f_cking lazy to want to LIVE!

 

[Oddball]

And let me remind you of your ham-handed invocation of Nazis to attempt to make some incomprehensible point or another, and that you're a poseur of a "libertarian", Jethro.

I'm not surprised at YOUR incomprehension...my argument is way over your head...it was the Nazis that believed like PC in survival of the fittest; Aryan purity... the weak, the disabled, the old and the feeble were discarded as either poison to the gene pool, defective or a burden to society...

If you had been paying attention as you sit in the peanut galley as a spectator of life, you would be aware that I said more than once I am a JFK liberal AND a Goldwater libertarian...in THAT order. There are many things I agree with Goldwater on and there are many things I don't...

You call yourself a libertarian...yet I hear nothing from you to indicate you are anything but a right wing pea brain...you offer as proof a smug "read up on your F. A. Hayek"...yea, a man who had disdain for the term libertarian, but not as much as he had disdain for conservatives...

"Whiggism is historically the correct name for the ideas in which I believe. The more I learn about the evolution of ideas, the more I have become aware that I am simply an unrepentant Old Whig - with the stress on the "old."
F. A. Hayek - Why I Am Not a Conservative

I surmise you are a faux libertarian like Grover Norquist (I have to surmise because you are a spectator that lacks the courage to engage in the debate of ideas)...if that's your idea of a libertarian, then you should "read up on your Mein Kampf..."

“When you know that you're capable of dealing with whatever comes, you have the only security the world has to offer”
Harry Browne

None of your pedantic arguments are over my head, and I'm quite well versed in Hayek, neutron brain.

That you quote Hayek and other well known libertarians ad nauseum, as a flimsy pretext to claim that you yourself share those predilections, is as transparently cynical as it gets.

 

[Bfgrn]

And let me remind you of your ham-handed invocation of Nazis to attempt to make some incomprehensible point or another, and that you're a poseur of a "libertarian", Jethro.

I'm not surprised at YOUR incomprehension...my argument is way over your head...it was the Nazis that believed like PC in survival of the fittest; Aryan purity... the weak, the disabled, the old and the feeble were discarded as either poison to the gene pool, defective or a burden to society...

If you had been paying attention as you sit in the peanut galley as a spectator of life, you would be aware that I said more than once I am a JFK liberal AND a Goldwater libertarian...in THAT order. There are many things I agree with Goldwater on and there are many things I don't...

You call yourself a libertarian...yet I hear nothing from you to indicate you are anything but a right wing pea brain...you offer as proof a smug "read up on your F. A. Hayek"...yea, a man who had disdain for the term libertarian, but not as much as he had disdain for conservatives...

"Whiggism is historically the correct name for the ideas in which I believe. The more I learn about the evolution of ideas, the more I have become aware that I am simply an unrepentant Old Whig - with the stress on the "old."
F. A. Hayek - Why I Am Not a Conservative

I surmise you are a faux libertarian like Grover Norquist (I have to surmise because you are a spectator that lacks the courage to engage in the debate of ideas)...if that's your idea of a libertarian, then you should "read up on your Mein Kampf..."

“When you know that you're capable of dealing with whatever comes, you have the only security the world has to offer”
Harry Browne

None of your pedantic arguments are over my head, and I'm quite well versed in Hayek, neutron brain.

That you quote Hayek and other well known libertarians ad nauseum, as a flimsy pretext to claim that you yourself share those predilections, is as transparently cynical as it gets.

That you SAY "I'm quite well versed in Hayek" and oblivious to his disdain for the libertarian label belies your claim...

Maybe if you say it more forcefully...

 

[rdean]

Why does the right push that darn, "Chicken Little" mentality?

Death Panels
Redistribution of Wealth (which most of them don't have)
Kill Grandma
al Queda is comming
Government is watching

It must be really stressful to live in this constant state of "alarm". No wonder so many drink.