Could all Religions Come Together?

[Lisa558]

Someone who thinks they know better than Jesus the Christ, which is nothing new. It's the way of all heretics.

Jesus mentioned Hell in the Bible more than He did heaven. But of course, YOUR ideas are better.

And you think YOUR ideas are better.

Jews don’t go around and tell Christians to stop worshipping a mortal man! So why don’t you show the same respect for Jews and let us enjoy our covenant with G-d?

 

[Meriweather]

Jews don’t go around and tell Christians to stop worshipping a mortal man!

Christians see God as Creator, as Spirit, as Word. We see this in Genesis, and so do Jews. Christian belief is that the Word became flesh, or as you say, mortal man. This is where the two faiths diverge.

Let's take a look at the Word Jesus proclaimed. He said, "Sins are forgiven."

Do Jews believe sins are forgiven? Jesus noted repentance (turning away) from sin results in the forgiveness of that sin. Do Jews believe this?

A man died assuring the people of his own time that their sins are forgiven. Was he wrong to proclaim this?

I understand people of the Jewish faith cannot worship Jesus because of the conviction God's Word would never take on mortal form. However, is, "Sins are forgiven/repentance for the forgiveness of sins" also God's Word? Or do Jews believe sins are not forgiven, even sins that people turn away from committing?

 

[SweetSue92]

Nope. Jesus mentioned heaven three times more.

The "Kingdom of God" is not Heaven.

 

[surada]

The "Kingdom of God" is not Heaven.

It most certainly is. Jesus says his kingdom is in heaven.

 

[SweetSue92]

And you think YOUR ideas are better.

Jews don’t go around and tell Christians to stop worshipping a mortal man! So why don’t you show the same respect for Jews and let us enjoy our covenant with G-d?

No, not my ideas. Jesus' ideas.

The fact that we even exist is bothersome to you. There's a word for that: bigotry.

 

[Lisa558]

Christians see God as Creator, as Spirit, as Word. We see this in Genesis, and so do Jews. Christian belief is that the Word became flesh, or as you say, mortal man. This is where the two faiths diverge.

Let's take a look at the Word Jesus proclaimed. He said, "Sins are forgiven."

Do Jews believe sins are forgiven? Jesus noted repentance (turning away) from sin results in the forgiveness of that sin. Do Jews believe this?

A man died assuring the people of his own time that their sins are forgiven. Was he wrong to proclaim this?

I understand people of the Jewish faith cannot worship Jesus because of the conviction God's Word would never take on mortal form. However, is, "Sins are forgiven/repentance for the forgiveness of sins" also God's Word? Or do Jews believe sins are not forgiven, even sins that people turn away from committing?

Of course Jews believe sins are forgiven. The difference is that we do not believe Jesus dies for our sins, or that worship of him assures us our sins are forgiven.

No, we must do that ourselves: recognize we have sinned, ask for forgiveness, and be determined never to do that again. Of course, we are flawed, and we sin again, but we have a forgiving Gd and as long as we try our best, He forgives is.

Another difference is that Gd only can forgive sins against Gd. If we have sinned against a person, we must ask forgiveness of that person.

 

[surada]

No, not my ideas. Jesus' ideas.

The fact that we even exist is bothersome to you. There's a word for that: bigotry.

John 18:36 Jesus answered, "My kingdom is not of this world; if it were, My servants would fight to prevent My arrest by the Jews. But now My kingdom is not of this realm."

 

[Lisa558]

No, not my ideas. Jesus' ideas.

The fact that we even exist is bothersome to you. There's a word for that: bigotry.

The idea that Jews even exist is bothersome to YOU, or else you wouldn’t go around demanding we stop being Jewish. There’s a word for that: antisemitism.

And the existence of Christians isn’t bothersome to me. If you want to believe that Jesus was….whatever…..have at it. What bothers me, and other Jews, is when you keep telling people not of your faith that their religion is wrong. There’s a word for that too: arrogance.

Just leave us the hell alone. You’re as bad as the Democrats who insist that THEIR way is the only right way.

 

[SweetSue92]

Jesus spoke of the Kingdom 192 times, or three times more often than he mentions hell. Add to this all the verses that mention forgiveness and that sins are forgiven.

What is difficult for you to comprehend, Sue, is that my "ideas" come straight out of the Bible. My focus is on the Kingdom and forgiveness, the Good News of the Bible that Jesus asked us to spread throughout the land.

Perhaps you can point to the verses where he specifically asks us to preach hell and damnation? You seem to be asking me to turn from (repent of) spreading the Good News and turn to focusing on hell. I decline.

This is exactly what you said:

In my opinion it is a sin against God--and presents a travesty of God--that one is in danger of hell by not accepting Jesus as Lord and Savior.

This is not about efficacy of preaching or what we should preach. You don't believe non-believers are in danger of Hell for not accepting Jesus. That's heresy. You can believe it, but Christians don't recognize you as a Christian.

 

[SweetSue92]

The idea that Jews even exist is bothersome to YOU, or else you wouldn’t go around demanding we stop being Jewish. There’s a word for that: antisemitism.

And the existence of Christians isn’t bothersome to me. If you want to believe that Jesus was….whatever…..have at it. What bothers me, and other Jews, is when you keep telling people not of your faith that their religion is wrong. There’s a word for that too: arrogance.

Just leave us the hell alone. You’re as bad as the Democrats who insist that THEIR way is the only right way.

I'm not demanding anything, nor would I ever. I responded to your assertion that you won't even pray next to Christians.

Thinking that people believe their religion is correct is arrogant is again, a you problem. Moreover, I don't know why you would adhere to a faith if you don't even think it's true or correct.

 

[Lisa558]

I'm not demanding anything, nor would I ever. I responded to your assertion that you won't even pray next to Christians.

Thinking that people believe their religion is correct is arrogant is again, a you problem. Moreover, I don't know why you would adhere to a faith if you don't even think it's true or correct.

I adhere to Judaism. I believe it is true and correct.

You can believe whatever you want. No skin off my back. Just don’t write back telling me I’m wrong, and Gd is angry at Jews and will send them to hell. We do NOT have that kind of Gd.

 

[The Irish Ram]

Grafted on? What do Jews say about that nonsense? You speak for God now?

No, God doesn't need any help speaking. What the Jews say is inconsequential. Here is the scripture that explains the process of grafting Gentiles onto the Jewish root, Christ as the Jewish root, the Jews trespass, and how they can be grafted again:

Romans 11
So I ask, did they (Jews) stumble in order that they might fall? By no means! Rather, through their trespass salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous. 12 Now if their trespass means riches for the world, and if their failure means riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their full inclusion mean!

13 Now I am speaking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry 14 in order somehow to make my fellow Jews jealous, and thus save some of them. 15 For if their rejection means the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance mean but life from the dead? 16 If the dough offered as first fruits is holy, so is the whole lump, and if the root is holy, so are the branches.

17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root3 of the olive tree, 18 do not be arrogant toward the branches. If you are, remember it is not you who support the root, but the root that supports you. 19 Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. 22 Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off. 23 And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, the natural branches, be grafted back into their own olive tree.

 

[Lisa558]

No, God doesn't need any help speaking. What the Jews say is inconsequential. Here is the scripture that explains the process of grafting Gentiles onto the Jewish root, Christ as the Jewish root, the Jews trespass, and how they can be grafted again:

Romans 11
So I ask, did they (Jews) stumble in order that they might fall? By no means! Rather, through their trespass salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous. 12 Now if their trespass means riches for the world, and if their failure means riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their full inclusion mean!

13 Now I am speaking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry 14 in order somehow to make my fellow Jews jealous, and thus save some of them. 15 For if their rejection means the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance mean but life from the dead? 16 If the dough offered as first fruits is holy, so is the whole lump, and if the root is holy, so are the branches.

17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root3 of the olive tree, 18 do not be arrogant toward the branches. If you are, remember it is not you who support the root, but the root that supports you. 19 Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. 22 Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off. 23 And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, the natural branches, be grafted back into their own olive tree.

So the Jews are inconsequential - and your proof is in the New Testament? Oh that‘s rich.

 

[Meriweather]

Of course Jews believe sins are forgiven. The difference is that we do not believe Jesus dies for our sins, or that worship of him assures us our sins are forgiven.

In reading the Gospels, Jesus speaks directly to the sinner announcing, "Your sins are forgiven." Nowhere does he say, "Your sins will be forgiven after I give my life." Jesus always uses present tense.

Strictly speaking, Jesus was condemned because he announced, "Sins are forgiven." and the Temple leaders of that time challenged his authority in making such a pronouncement. They asked him for a sign from God that he had the authority to tell the world Sins are forgiven.

Jesus said it was a New Covenant (Testament), and in Jewish history, God's covenants with his people had always involved animal/blood sacrifice. Jesus' words had no blood covenant on which to fall back. Jesus' blood sacrifice was that he gave his life rather than stop proclaiming the forgiveness of sin. And he rose again after his death. Those were the signs the Temple leaders of the time were given.

At least in Catholic theology, we hold the belief that we are responsible for making restitution for any sins we commit. That is part of the repentance process as is working hard to turn away from committing that sin. We point to Christ and his sacrifice and God's power to make the restitution that we are not capable of doing.

The Protestant Reformation announced changes to this. Some denominations went so far as to teach that all the sins they would ever commit were already forgiven before they were born and that Jesus took on the punishment for that sin by his suffering on the cross. Shrug. All I can say is that Jesus never made that specific proclamation. His proclamation was to announce, "Sins are forgiven."

My experience is that sins tend to create their own backlash/punishment that we suffer in this life, especially when no repentance/turning from and no restitution is made. This, along with the confidence that sins, in fact, are forgiven provides the incentive for and joy in future endeavors. This is much better than curling up in a corner and grieve over the past.

I know and understand Jews cannot worship Jesus. What I do wish is that Jews, with their own understanding, can come to honor him for standing firm on the truth/covenant that Sins are forgiven. He devoted and gave his life so that simple truth might be known and accepted all throughout the world.

 

[Meriweather]

Another difference is that Gd only can forgive sins against Gd. If we have sinned against a person, we must ask forgiveness of that person.

Yes. I will add that committing a sin against a person can cause repercussions throughout the community which does involve God and His works. This is why we are taught to ask forgiveness from both.

 

[Lisa558]

In reading the Gospels, Jesus speaks directly to the sinner announcing, "Your sins are forgiven." Nowhere does he say, "Your sins will be forgiven after I give my life." Jesus always uses present tense.

Strictly speaking, Jesus was condemned because he announced, "Sins are forgiven." and the Temple leaders of that time challenged his authority in making such a pronouncement. They asked him for a sign from God that he had the authority to tell the world Sins are forgiven.

Jesus said it was a New Covenant (Testament), and in Jewish history, God's covenants with his people had always involved animal/blood sacrifice. Jesus' words had no blood covenant on which to fall back. Jesus' blood sacrifice was that he gave his life rather than stop proclaiming the forgiveness of sin. And he rose again after his death. Those were the signs the Temple leaders of the time were given.

At least in Catholic theology, we hold the belief that we are responsible for making restitution for any sins we commit. That is part of the repentance process as is working hard to turn away from committing that sin. We point to Christ and his sacrifice and God's power to make the restitution that we are not capable of doing.

The Protestant Reformation announced changes to this. Some denominations went so far as to teach that all the sins they would ever commit were already forgiven before they were born and that Jesus took on the punishment for that sin by his suffering on the cross. Shrug. All I can say is that Jesus never made that specific proclamation. His proclamation was to announce, "Sins are forgiven."

My experience is that sins tend to create their own backlash/punishment that we suffer in this life, especially when no repentance/turning from and no restitution is made. This, along with the confidence that sins, in fact, are forgiven provides the incentive for and joy in future endeavors. This is much better than curling up in a corner and grieve over the past.

I know and understand Jews cannot worship Jesus. What I do wish is that Jews, with their own understanding, can come to honor him for standing firm on the truth/covenant that Sins are forgiven. He devoted and gave his life so that simple truth might be known and accepted all throughout the world.

Well of course Jesus said sins are forgiven. That’s a Jewish concept. All Jewish prophets and leaders and rabbis taught that. Jesus was just going along with the Jewish teachings. Nothing unusual about it.

 

[The Irish Ram]

Christians see God as Creator, as Spirit, as Word. We see this in Genesis, and so do Jews. Christian belief is that the Word became flesh, or as you say, mortal man. This is where the two faiths diverge.

Let's take a look at the Word Jesus proclaimed. He said, "Sins are forgiven."

Do Jews believe sins are forgiven? Jesus noted repentance (turning away) from sin results in the forgiveness of that sin. Do Jews believe this?

A man died assuring the people of his own time that their sins are forgiven. Was he wrong to proclaim this?

I understand people of the Jewish faith cannot worship Jesus because of the conviction God's Word would never take on mortal form. However, is, "Sins are forgiven/repentance for the forgiveness of sins" also God's Word? Or do Jews believe sins are not forgiven, even sins that people turn away from committing?

If the Jews accepted Christ, He would have never left them. They missed their hour of visitation, which gave Gentiles an era of their own to come to Him.
The Jews will continue to deny Him. They will return to sacrificing animals for temporary relief from their sins until they are nearly destroyed. To prevent that, Christ will be touching down on the Mt. of Olives, and that is the point when the Jews accept Christ as their Savior.

 

[Meriweather]

You don't believe non-believers are in danger of Hell for not accepting Jesus. That's heresy. You can believe it, but Christians don't recognize you as a Christian.

The reason it is not heresy is that we are asked to spread the Good News. We are not asked to persecute those who do not accept it. In fact, we are to leave them in the hands of God--God who is just, loving, and merciful.

Jesus' own words: If someone does not welcome the news, simply shake the dust from your feet and move on. Remember his response when James and John suggest they call down fire and brimstone instead?

 

[Lisa558]

If the Jews accepted Christ, He would have never left them. They missed their hour of visitation, which gave Gentiles an era of their own to come to Him.
The Jews will continue to deny Him. They will return to sacrificing animals for temporary relief from their sins until they are nearly destroyed. To prevent that, Christ will be touching down on the Mt. of Olives, and that is the point when the Jews accept Christ as their Savior.

^^^ This is antisemitic. Jews are not denying Gd. And stop with your nonsense that we will return to sacrificing animals.

It is comments such as yours that keep Jews voting Democrat.

 

[Meriweather]

Well of course Jesus said sins are forgiven. That’s a Jewish concept. All Jewish prophets and leaders and rabbis taught that. Jesus was just going along with the Jewish teachings. Nothing unusual about it.

Exactly! But in his own day, some of the Temple leaders were demanding a price for that forgiveness. Jesus was never speaking against the Jewish faith, he was at odds with some of the leaders of his day. To be fair to those leaders, they were more concerned with having the means to stand--if not against--then equal to Rome in the eyes of the populace. The poor find it difficult to stand equal with the rich and powerful. The Temple, their leaders decided, needed funding. (Keep in mind I am speaking of Annas and Caiaphas, not such contemporaries as Gamaliel.

Another reason Jews should honor such a man is that Jesus was poor, and he stood equal. Other poor people saw this, and another reason why they found him so inspiring.