Crate training

[Coyote]

I've done the whole relaxation/submission posturing thing a la Cesar. It doesn't work with her, not that way.

What happens when you do it?

 

[Coyote]

I've done the whole relaxation/submission posturing thing a la Cesar. It doesn't work with her, not that way.

What happens when you do it?

oh wait - never mind, I saw you already answered.

 

[Asclepias]

Well, I for one am not above negative training. Some dog people freak out if you teach them the word no. I screamed bloody murder and let them know the top dog doesn't allow that kind of behavior. Didn't have to do it much, they caught on real quick.

Maybe if he had a favorite spot outside, a place to mark as his own? And like I said praising him when doing it outside. The get the point, master angry/master happy.

The last thing you want to do with a dog is scream at them. Doesn't teach them anything. Whisper. They'll pay more attention. If a dog has been screamed at, it may take a little while to accustom her to listen to whispers but I guarantee, the dog WILL get it.

Dogs also respond to a different kind of physical punishment than humans mete out. No need to ever ever ever hit a dog. Better to think like other dogs. What would the Dog parent or dog aunts and uncles do? Treat the dog like he's a dog. If you watch Cesar, that's exactly what he does - he thinks and acts like a dog instead of an hysterical screaming human.

And dogs punish other dogs and then its forgotten. Don't hold a grudge and never react out of anger. The dog won't understand and you'll do more damage than good.

All my dogs are punished by making them lay down. This is a submissive posture a dominant dog would do to them.

Sometimes a dominant dog just kills them, too. If you watch dog packs, they have more than one tool in their arsenal. And not all dogs submit. You can lay mylo down for an hour and she never submits.

I dont know how squeamish you are about this but if you muzzle her and physically force her to lay on her back she will eventually submit. Its like brainwashing for humans.

It would take, literally, hours. She doesn't submit. I've tried. She gets more and more resistant the longer it goes on.

Dont do it for hours. Thats actually pretty cruel. Do it for maybe a minute or two several times a day. I guarantee it will work.

 

[Coyote]

Well, I for one am not above negative training. Some dog people freak out if you teach them the word no. I screamed bloody murder and let them know the top dog doesn't allow that kind of behavior. Didn't have to do it much, they caught on real quick.

Maybe if he had a favorite spot outside, a place to mark as his own? And like I said praising him when doing it outside. The get the point, master angry/master happy.

The last thing you want to do with a dog is scream at them. Doesn't teach them anything. Whisper. They'll pay more attention. If a dog has been screamed at, it may take a little while to accustom her to listen to whispers but I guarantee, the dog WILL get it.

Dogs also respond to a different kind of physical punishment than humans mete out. No need to ever ever ever hit a dog. Better to think like other dogs. What would the Dog parent or dog aunts and uncles do? Treat the dog like he's a dog. If you watch Cesar, that's exactly what he does - he thinks and acts like a dog instead of an hysterical screaming human.

And dogs punish other dogs and then its forgotten. Don't hold a grudge and never react out of anger. The dog won't understand and you'll do more damage than good.

All my dogs are punished by making them lay down. This is a submissive posture a dominant dog would do to them.

Sometimes a dominant dog just kills them, too. If you watch dog packs, they have more than one tool in their arsenal. And not all dogs submit. You can lay mylo down for an hour and she never submits.

I dont know how squeamish you are about this but if you muzzle her and physically force her to lay on her back she will eventually submit. Its like brainwashing for humans.

It would take, literally, hours. She doesn't submit. I've tried. She gets more and more resistant the longer it goes on.

This is something where I tend to disagree with CM. Forcing a dog to submit vs. the dog volunteering to submit. I know it's all supposed to be based on the way wolves behave, but if you ever watch a wolf pack in the wild, the alpha dog is not going around forcing submission all the time. He almost never actually has to. The lower ranking dogs offer it willingly. The problem with forcing submission is that people often misread the dog and thinking the dog is acting dominant, when what is driving it might be something else completely. Forcing a dog to submit in those cases is counterproductive and can even make situation worse.

Cowboy was a dog that would do anything I asked but he could be hardheaded at times. If he was manhandled he would resist until he was totally panicked. If he was asked - or shown how - he would willingly do it. When he was around 2, we ran him throught the ATT Temperment Test. One of the segments involved things that would startle or frighten him and his reaction would be judged in accordance with what was expected of him. We taught him a "nose touch" - for things that he was afraid of. He would touch it with his nose and get a reward. He remember this, several years later, when I had to give him liquid medicine. I was in a big hurry because I was running late to work, so I sat him, held him place and tried to give it to him and he resisted and then started to panic and fight. Finally I got so frustrated, I just let him go and sat there holding the syringe. He waited a few seconds, then approached me, did a nose touch to the syringe. I was able to give him the medicine when I realized what he was telling me and listened. If I had kept fighting him, I would have damaged the trust between us and it would have taken a long time to get it back.

With some dogs, I find it better to make them work for everything - like Asclepias was saying to use breakfast. I'll lure them to lie down, and then wait and see if they offer it after a while and reward that. Once they understand that down will earn them something, you can start to vary it. Some dogs though, are difficult to get down. Sometimes, because it's a very vulnerable posture, they may be reluctant to - but sometimes I wonder if their structure makes it more difficult. I notice this particularly with toy breeds.

 

[Muhammed]

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I have had Mylo for about nine years, and she was two when I got her. She is very dominant and a tad aggressive so we spend a lot of energy keeping her and everybody else as safe as possible. She also poops and pees indiscriminately the minute she is alone.

She has always been so terrible about crating that I just never utilize it. She starts barking, scratching, whining, peeing, biting at the cage the minute she goes in and does not stop.

It never occurred to me to just crate train her. Instead of thinking she needed trained, I assumed it wouldn't work, or had been tried and failed.

I feel like an idiot!!! I've been dealing with her foibles for years and it never occurred to me to just train her.

I started yesterday...life is already easier. She went in on her own this am. I left her in while I did little things like make coffee and run laundry. I hope that soon I can crate her when I'm out if the house, when we travel to visit family, or when we have company. What that will mean for Mylo is her level of isolation will decrease. If she's crated she can at least be in the same room with everybody. Now she has to be put away because she bites and fights.

That dog looks miserable in that crate.

He can barely even move in that tiny cage. It's fucking torture.

Koshergrl should not own a pet dog.

 

[Asclepias]

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I have had Mylo for about nine years, and she was two when I got her. She is very dominant and a tad aggressive so we spend a lot of energy keeping her and everybody else as safe as possible. She also poops and pees indiscriminately the minute she is alone.

She has always been so terrible about crating that I just never utilize it. She starts barking, scratching, whining, peeing, biting at the cage the minute she goes in and does not stop.

It never occurred to me to just crate train her. Instead of thinking she needed trained, I assumed it wouldn't work, or had been tried and failed.

I feel like an idiot!!! I've been dealing with her foibles for years and it never occurred to me to just train her.

I started yesterday...life is already easier. She went in on her own this am. I left her in while I did little things like make coffee and run laundry. I hope that soon I can crate her when I'm out if the house, when we travel to visit family, or when we have company. What that will mean for Mylo is her level of isolation will decrease. If she's crated she can at least be in the same room with everybody. Now she has to be put away because she bites and fights.

That dog looks miserable in that crate.

He can barely even move in that tiny cage. It's fucking torture.

Koshergrl should not own a pet dog.

Crate Training : The Humane Society of the United States

"Your dog's crate should be just large enough for him to stand up and turn around in. "


Choosing the Right Crate Size

 

[Coyote]

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I have had Mylo for about nine years, and she was two when I got her. She is very dominant and a tad aggressive so we spend a lot of energy keeping her and everybody else as safe as possible. She also poops and pees indiscriminately the minute she is alone.

She has always been so terrible about crating that I just never utilize it. She starts barking, scratching, whining, peeing, biting at the cage the minute she goes in and does not stop.

It never occurred to me to just crate train her. Instead of thinking she needed trained, I assumed it wouldn't work, or had been tried and failed.

I feel like an idiot!!! I've been dealing with her foibles for years and it never occurred to me to just train her.

I started yesterday...life is already easier. She went in on her own this am. I left her in while I did little things like make coffee and run laundry. I hope that soon I can crate her when I'm out if the house, when we travel to visit family, or when we have company. What that will mean for Mylo is her level of isolation will decrease. If she's crated she can at least be in the same room with everybody. Now she has to be put away because she bites and fights.

That dog looks miserable in that crate.

He can barely even move in that tiny cage. It's fucking torture.

Koshergrl should not own a pet dog.

No it's not, she has ample room to stand fully, turn around and lie down. She is not confined 24/7 and for her it offers her a space where she feels, safe, and secure and isn't isolated from household activities.

 

[koshergrl]

It also will mean I can leave my bedroom door open and move around the house without constantly keeping tabs on her. She's not the sort of dog you can just relax around if there are kids or other digs in the vicinity. You have to monitor her, or someone will get bit.

Have you also tried baby gates? I have two females that need close monitoring when out so I rotate them and have one either crated or baby-gated in my office. For a while, I had double gates with several feet in between just incase there was fence fighting, but ended up not really needing it. They're happy to avoid each other when given the opportunity.

I can configure the crate that way and thought about it but I'm really trying to get her crate trained first because of the pooping peeing thing and because we're going to mom's for thanksgiving and I want to be able to keep her in the house. Last time we visited was a nightmare...she barks the whole time she's in the house if she's separated from us, and when she's loose she's patrolling. It's a pain in the ass. And I'm sick of dealing with crap in my bedroom.

 

[koshergrl]

That's not a crate. Its a cage. Seriously.

Because its open on all sides, you are actually increasing her anxiety. Get an enclosed crate where she can feel secure instead of feeling like a sitting duck.

Remember that, even dogs are domesticated, they still retain certain attributes of their wild cousins as well as other wild animals. You'll never see a wild animal laying down for a comfy snooze in the wide open spaces. Give her a cave and she'll be a lot calmer.

It also needs to be a tad bigger with more padding. If she is closer to one person in the household, toss in a piece of that person's dirty clothing. Give her enough material to let her nest. She needs to be able to rearrange the furniture to her own liking.

I would almost always go for a GSD size. If you can't afford one new, check thrift stores and yard sales. We just took two to our animal shelter and I'm sure we're not the only ones who have too man on hand.

As you train her, use a treat. When you tell her its time for her crate, toss the treat in first.

Keeping dogs in crates can be incredibly cruel but it can also be a form of comfort and shelter. It all depends on their human. Never use it as a form of punishment.

BTW - often, people will call a dog to them to punish them. Dumb. All that teaches is not to come when they're called. Dogs are pack animals and we are their pack. If you want to punish a dog, send them away from you. But not for long periods.

Actually, it's a crate. You will notice the door is open. She's not spending any period of time in there yet. If I cover it she pulls the covering inside and pisses on it. I am using food to reward her. She went in by herself this am, she has never done that (well she went in once to piss inside when she was left alone with the open crate for five mins). The fact that she is sitting in there calmly is a huge step forward.

 

[koshergrl]

I've done the whole relaxation/submission posturing thing a la Cesar. It doesn't work with her, not that way.

What happens when you do it?

She is like a tightly wound spring. She'll lay there, but it's not submission, and the minute you relax she's up. I tried it a few years ago for sessions of up to an hour, based on the idea that "they can'tmaintain resistance for that long".... we got nowhere. I'm not going to hold her down for eight hours waiting for submission. Not all methods work for all dogs.

 

[Iceweasel]

Obviously pounding on them and shrieking isn't terribly effective but I don't believe iceweasel does that.

Who said that? I have a number of hate filled retards on filter. No, I don't need to hit them, the tone is all it takes. The Rat Terrier is like a rebellious teenager, always pushing the limits. My female mix would rather die than get me upset and I have to be careful what I say to the RT because it's like saying it to her too.

 

[Coyote]

I've done the whole relaxation/submission posturing thing a la Cesar. It doesn't work with her, not that way.

What happens when you do it?

She is like a tightly wound spring. She'll lay there, but it's not submission, and the minute you relax she's up. I tried it a few years ago for sessions of up to an hour, based on the idea that "they can'tmaintain resistance for that long".... we got nowhere. I'm not going to hold her down for eight hours waiting for submission. Not all methods work for all dogs.

Totally agree - they're all tools to have in your tool box, key is to have a variety

 

[koshergrl]

View attachment 54030 View attachment 54031

I have had Mylo for about nine years, and she was two when I got her. She is very dominant and a tad aggressive so we spend a lot of energy keeping her and everybody else as safe as possible. She also poops and pees indiscriminately the minute she is alone.

She has always been so terrible about crating that I just never utilize it. She starts barking, scratching, whining, peeing, biting at the cage the minute she goes in and does not stop.

It never occurred to me to just crate train her. Instead of thinking she needed trained, I assumed it wouldn't work, or had been tried and failed.

I feel like an idiot!!! I've been dealing with her foibles for years and it never occurred to me to just train her.

I started yesterday...life is already easier. She went in on her own this am. I left her in while I did little things like make coffee and run laundry. I hope that soon I can crate her when I'm out if the house, when we travel to visit family, or when we have company. What that will mean for Mylo is her level of isolation will decrease. If she's crated she can at least be in the same room with everybody. Now she has to be put away because she bites and fights.

That dog looks miserable in that crate.

He can barely even move in that tiny cage. It's fucking torture.

Koshergrl should not own a pet dog.

No it's not, she has ample room to stand fully, turn around and lie down. She is not confined 24/7 and for her it offers her a space where she feels, safe, and secure and isn't isolated from household activities.

Exactly. Once she gets it, she's going to love it.

 

[koshergrl]

View attachment 54030 View attachment 54031

I have had Mylo for about nine years, and she was two when I got her. She is very dominant and a tad aggressive so we spend a lot of energy keeping her and everybody else as safe as possible. She also poops and pees indiscriminately the minute she is alone.

She has always been so terrible about crating that I just never utilize it. She starts barking, scratching, whining, peeing, biting at the cage the minute she goes in and does not stop.

It never occurred to me to just crate train her. Instead of thinking she needed trained, I assumed it wouldn't work, or had been tried and failed.

I feel like an idiot!!! I've been dealing with her foibles for years and it never occurred to me to just train her.

I started yesterday...life is already easier. She went in on her own this am. I left her in while I did little things like make coffee and run laundry. I hope that soon I can crate her when I'm out if the house, when we travel to visit family, or when we have company. What that will mean for Mylo is her level of isolation will decrease. If she's crated she can at least be in the same room with everybody. Now she has to be put away because she bites and fights.

That dog looks miserable in that crate.

He can barely even move in that tiny cage. It's fucking torture.

Koshergrl should not own a pet dog.

She has plenty of room. You should shut up.

 

[Muhammed]

View attachment 54030 View attachment 54031

I have had Mylo for about nine years, and she was two when I got her. She is very dominant and a tad aggressive so we spend a lot of energy keeping her and everybody else as safe as possible. She also poops and pees indiscriminately the minute she is alone.

She has always been so terrible about crating that I just never utilize it. She starts barking, scratching, whining, peeing, biting at the cage the minute she goes in and does not stop.

It never occurred to me to just crate train her. Instead of thinking she needed trained, I assumed it wouldn't work, or had been tried and failed.

I feel like an idiot!!! I've been dealing with her foibles for years and it never occurred to me to just train her.

I started yesterday...life is already easier. She went in on her own this am. I left her in while I did little things like make coffee and run laundry. I hope that soon I can crate her when I'm out if the house, when we travel to visit family, or when we have company. What that will mean for Mylo is her level of isolation will decrease. If she's crated she can at least be in the same room with everybody. Now she has to be put away because she bites and fights.

That dog looks miserable in that crate.

He can barely even move in that tiny cage. It's fucking torture.

Koshergrl should not own a pet dog.

No it's not, she has ample room to stand fully, turn around and lie down. She is not confined 24/7 and for her it offers her a space where she feels, safe, and secure and isn't isolated from household activities.

Exactly. Once she gets it, she's going to love it.

Would you love it?

 

[Coyote]

View attachment 54030 View attachment 54031

I have had Mylo for about nine years, and she was two when I got her. She is very dominant and a tad aggressive so we spend a lot of energy keeping her and everybody else as safe as possible. She also poops and pees indiscriminately the minute she is alone.

She has always been so terrible about crating that I just never utilize it. She starts barking, scratching, whining, peeing, biting at the cage the minute she goes in and does not stop.

It never occurred to me to just crate train her. Instead of thinking she needed trained, I assumed it wouldn't work, or had been tried and failed.

I feel like an idiot!!! I've been dealing with her foibles for years and it never occurred to me to just train her.

I started yesterday...life is already easier. She went in on her own this am. I left her in while I did little things like make coffee and run laundry. I hope that soon I can crate her when I'm out if the house, when we travel to visit family, or when we have company. What that will mean for Mylo is her level of isolation will decrease. If she's crated she can at least be in the same room with everybody. Now she has to be put away because she bites and fights.

That dog looks miserable in that crate.

He can barely even move in that tiny cage. It's fucking torture.

Koshergrl should not own a pet dog.

No it's not, she has ample room to stand fully, turn around and lie down. She is not confined 24/7 and for her it offers her a space where she feels, safe, and secure and isn't isolated from household activities.

Exactly. Once she gets it, she's going to love it.

Would you love it?

Dogs are den animals, that is one reason crates work well - it's not abusing them unless they are crated all the time. I have 4 crates and the doors are open most of the time (they only need crated at certain times). They wander in and out of each other's crates at will and I'm always finding someone asleep inside - with the door open.

Of course sometimes... we find a bit of a surprise

 

[Carla_Danger]

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I have had Mylo for about nine years, and she was two when I got her. She is very dominant and a tad aggressive so we spend a lot of energy keeping her and everybody else as safe as possible. She also poops and pees indiscriminately the minute she is alone.

She has always been so terrible about crating that I just never utilize it. She starts barking, scratching, whining, peeing, biting at the cage the minute she goes in and does not stop.

It never occurred to me to just crate train her. Instead of thinking she needed trained, I assumed it wouldn't work, or had been tried and failed.

I feel like an idiot!!! I've been dealing with her foibles for years and it never occurred to me to just train her.

I started yesterday...life is already easier. She went in on her own this am. I left her in while I did little things like make coffee and run laundry. I hope that soon I can crate her when I'm out if the house, when we travel to visit family, or when we have company. What that will mean for Mylo is her level of isolation will decrease. If she's crated she can at least be in the same room with everybody. Now she has to be put away because she bites and fights.

That dog looks miserable in that crate.

He can barely even move in that tiny cage. It's fucking torture.

Koshergrl should not own a pet dog.

I wouldn't go that far. A lot of people crate their dogs who are very good dog owners. I was just commenting on the look on the dogs face.

I'm very happy to have the type of dogs that don't need to be put in crates. I've got a doggie door, and I'm lucky enough to be able to work from home. My dogs go in and out when they want.

 

[koshergrl]

View attachment 54030 View attachment 54031

I have had Mylo for about nine years, and she was two when I got her. She is very dominant and a tad aggressive so we spend a lot of energy keeping her and everybody else as safe as possible. She also poops and pees indiscriminately the minute she is alone.

She has always been so terrible about crating that I just never utilize it. She starts barking, scratching, whining, peeing, biting at the cage the minute she goes in and does not stop.

It never occurred to me to just crate train her. Instead of thinking she needed trained, I assumed it wouldn't work, or had been tried and failed.

I feel like an idiot!!! I've been dealing with her foibles for years and it never occurred to me to just train her.

I started yesterday...life is already easier. She went in on her own this am. I left her in while I did little things like make coffee and run laundry. I hope that soon I can crate her when I'm out if the house, when we travel to visit family, or when we have company. What that will mean for Mylo is her level of isolation will decrease. If she's crated she can at least be in the same room with everybody. Now she has to be put away because she bites and fights.

That dog looks miserable in that crate.

He can barely even move in that tiny cage. It's fucking torture.

Koshergrl should not own a pet dog.

No it's not, she has ample room to stand fully, turn around and lie down. She is not confined 24/7 and for her it offers her a space where she feels, safe, and secure and isn't isolated from household activities.

Exactly. Once she gets it, she's going to love it.

Would you love it?

I'm not a dog. Though I definitely love hanging out in my room, have no problem sitting for three hours at a whack at a desk or on a car. When she's nit rampaging, mylo lays on my bed happily for hours. She just needs to get used to the crate.

 

[koshergrl]

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I have had Mylo for about nine years, and she was two when I got her. She is very dominant and a tad aggressive so we spend a lot of energy keeping her and everybody else as safe as possible. She also poops and pees indiscriminately the minute she is alone.

She has always been so terrible about crating that I just never utilize it. She starts barking, scratching, whining, peeing, biting at the cage the minute she goes in and does not stop.

It never occurred to me to just crate train her. Instead of thinking she needed trained, I assumed it wouldn't work, or had been tried and failed.

I feel like an idiot!!! I've been dealing with her foibles for years and it never occurred to me to just train her.

I started yesterday...life is already easier. She went in on her own this am. I left her in while I did little things like make coffee and run laundry. I hope that soon I can crate her when I'm out if the house, when we travel to visit family, or when we have company. What that will mean for Mylo is her level of isolation will decrease. If she's crated she can at least be in the same room with everybody. Now she has to be put away because she bites and fights.

That dog looks miserable in that crate.

She hates having her picture taken. She averts her head and avoids looking at the camera.

She actually came out and went back in on her own within five minutes of those pictures.

 

[koshergrl]

Obviously pounding on them and shrieking isn't terribly effective but I don't believe iceweasel does that.

Who said that? I have a number of hate filled retards on filter.

Yeah ppl like to flock to the hobby forums to say nasty things. Sealybobo used to love to comment how ugly mylo is whenever I spanked him. Carla's here musing on how miserable mylo looked in the pictures, the implication being of course that I'm abusing her lol.