Creationists suffer another legal defeat

[blu]

Not by experiment, only by observation. Which is my point. Unless you can point to anywhere where I said these were not sciences I fail to see why you keep harping on the point.

Wrong. Both geologists and astrophysicists perform experiments.

It seems there isn't anything about science that you understand

Einstein was a pretty smart scientific guy and he believed in intelligent design.

no he didn't? do they teach this crap in churches now?

also, 99% of intelligent people int he past would have believed in some form of god simply because of the prevalence of religion. being smart in one field like einstein was in science doesn't make you an expert in another like religion

 

[JakeStarkey]

from: Belief in God 'childish,' Jews not chosen people: Einstein letter

Albert Einstein described belief in God as "childish superstition" and said Jews were not the chosen people, in a letter to be sold in London this week, an auctioneer said Tuesday.

The father of relativity, whose previously known views on religion have been more ambivalent and fuelled much discussion, made the comments in response to a philosopher in 1954.

As a Jew himself, Einstein said he had a great affinity with Jewish people but said they "have no different quality for me than all other people".

"The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish.

"No interpretation no matter how subtle can (for me) change this," he wrote in the letter written on January 3, 1954 to the philosopher Eric Gutkind, cited by The Guardian newspaper.

The German-language letter is being sold Thursday by Bloomsbury Auctions in Mayfair after being in a private collection for more than 50 years, said the auction house's managing director Rupert Powell.

 

[Father Time]

Mudwhistle, no one is saying that creationism or ID can't be taught in public schools,

Some people are. They claim it's teaching religion in public schools and shouldn't be done.

Give an example of how creationism can be taught independent of religion.

Claim it was all done by space aliens and never mention where the aliens came from.

 

[sangha]

Some people are. They claim it's teaching religion in public schools and shouldn't be done.

Give an example of how creationism can be taught independent of religion.

Claim it was all done by space aliens and never mention where the aliens came from.

That is neither creationism nor ID

Try again

 

[Father Time]

Give an example of how creationism can be taught independent of religion.

Claim it was all done by space aliens and never mention where the aliens came from.

That is neither creationism nor ID

Try again

OK if that doesn't count then I have no idea how it wouldn't be religious on some fundamental level.

 

[AllieBaba]

This is stupid. No theory of creation can be explained outside the realm. Explain evolution without using science. Explain genetics without mathematics.

 

[AllieBaba]

Wrong. Both geologists and astrophysicists perform experiments.

It seems there isn't anything about science that you understand

Einstein was a pretty smart scientific guy and he believed in intelligent design.

no he didn't? do they teach this crap in churches now?

also, 99% of intelligent people int he past would have believed in some form of god simply because of the prevalence of religion. being smart in one field like einstein was in science doesn't make you an expert in another like religion

You make all these outrageous sweeping pronouncements yet you NEVER back them up.
And you outright lie. Einstein WAS a supporter of intelligent design theory.

"Einstein said, "Science without religion
is lame. Religion without science is blind."

"In the last paragraph of his essay, "The World as I See It," Einstein
wrote, "I am satisfied with the mystery of life's eternity and with a
knowledge, a sense, of the marvelous structure of existence - as well
as the humble attempt to understand even a tiny portion of the Reason
that manifests itself in nature." While Einstein referred to the
Designer as "Reason" rather than "God," his writings make it very clear
that he believed that an intelligent Designer crafted our universe and
all that is within it."

harvard, Bush & Einstein On 'Intelligent Design' *LINK*

 

[sangha]

Einstein was a pretty smart scientific guy and he believed in intelligent design.

no he didn't? do they teach this crap in churches now?

also, 99% of intelligent people int he past would have believed in some form of god simply because of the prevalence of religion. being smart in one field like einstein was in science doesn't make you an expert in another like religion

You make all these outrageous sweeping pronouncements yet you NEVER back them up.
And you outright lie. Einstein WAS a supporter of intelligent design theory.

"Einstein said, "Science without religion
is lame. Religion without science is blind."

"In the last paragraph of his essay, "The World as I See It," Einstein
wrote, "I am satisfied with the mystery of life's eternity and with a
knowledge, a sense, of the marvelous structure of existence - as well
as the humble attempt to understand even a tiny portion of the Reason
that manifests itself in nature." While Einstein referred to the
Designer as "Reason" rather than "God," his writings make it very clear
that he believed that an intelligent Designer crafted our universe and
all that is within it."

harvard, Bush & Einstein On 'Intelligent Design' *LINK*

You are the one telling outright lies. ID involves a lot more than "God designed creation"

ALL CHRISTIANS believe that God designed creation. Very few Christians believe in ID

For example, ID involves the belief that natural selection doesn't happen.

 

[AllieBaba]

no he didn't? do they teach this crap in churches now?

also, 99% of intelligent people int he past would have believed in some form of god simply because of the prevalence of religion. being smart in one field like einstein was in science doesn't make you an expert in another like religion

You make all these outrageous sweeping pronouncements yet you NEVER back them up.
And you outright lie. Einstein WAS a supporter of intelligent design theory.

"Einstein said, "Science without religion
is lame. Religion without science is blind."

"In the last paragraph of his essay, "The World as I See It," Einstein
wrote, "I am satisfied with the mystery of life's eternity and with a
knowledge, a sense, of the marvelous structure of existence - as well
as the humble attempt to understand even a tiny portion of the Reason
that manifests itself in nature." While Einstein referred to the
Designer as "Reason" rather than "God," his writings make it very clear
that he believed that an intelligent Designer crafted our universe and
all that is within it."

harvard, Bush & Einstein On 'Intelligent Design' *LINK*

You are the one telling outright lies. ID involves a lot more than "God designed creation"

ALL CHRISTIANS believe that God designed creation. Very few Christians believe in ID

For example, ID involves the belief that natural selection doesn't happen.

Sure, make your point, spaz. Otherwise sit down and see how the grownups do it.

 

[AllieBaba]

The existence of God is a possibility with ID.

" The theory of intelligent design holds that certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause, not an undirected process such as natural selection. "
Intelligent Design

Now go play, Skippy. The sun is shining, you need to get some air.

 

[sangha]

You make all these outrageous sweeping pronouncements yet you NEVER back them up.
And you outright lie. Einstein WAS a supporter of intelligent design theory.

"Einstein said, "Science without religion
is lame. Religion without science is blind."

"In the last paragraph of his essay, "The World as I See It," Einstein
wrote, "I am satisfied with the mystery of life's eternity and with a
knowledge, a sense, of the marvelous structure of existence - as well
as the humble attempt to understand even a tiny portion of the Reason
that manifests itself in nature." While Einstein referred to the
Designer as "Reason" rather than "God," his writings make it very clear
that he believed that an intelligent Designer crafted our universe and
all that is within it."

harvard, Bush & Einstein On 'Intelligent Design' *LINK*

You are the one telling outright lies. ID involves a lot more than "God designed creation"

ALL CHRISTIANS believe that God designed creation. Very few Christians believe in ID

For example, ID involves the belief that natural selection doesn't happen.

Sure, make your point, spaz. Otherwise sit down and see how the grownups do it.

Just more proof that conservatives are unable to stand up for their claims and back it up with evidence, not childish name-calling

 

[sangha]

The existence of God is a possibility with ID.

" The theory of intelligent design holds that certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause, not an undirected process such as natural selection. "
Intelligent Design

Now go play, Skippy. The sun is shining, you need to get some air.

Umm, who do you think you're arguing with?

OF course ID allows the existence of God. That's the whole point of it.

I said that ID involves a disbelief in natural selection, and you just proved me right

 

[AllieBaba]

You are the one telling outright lies. ID involves a lot more than "God designed creation"

ALL CHRISTIANS believe that God designed creation. Very few Christians believe in ID

For example, ID involves the belief that natural selection doesn't happen.

Sure, make your point, spaz. Otherwise sit down and see how the grownups do it.

Just more proof that conservatives are unable to stand up for their claims and back it up with evidence, not childish name-calling

You moron. I just posted two separate sets of quotes, sources and links. That's known as "evidence".

I am one of those gifted individuals who can call names AND use evidence effectively.

 

[sangha]

Sure, make your point, spaz. Otherwise sit down and see how the grownups do it.

Just more proof that conservatives are unable to stand up for their claims and back it up with evidence, not childish name-calling

You moron. I just posted two separate sets of quotes, sources and links. That's known as "evidence".

I am one of those gifted individuals who can call names AND use evidence effectively.

Your "evidence" supports what *I* said you ninny!!

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Astrophysicists have proven the existence of black holes. Geologists have proven the Theory of Plate Tectonics

Not by experiment, only by observation. Which is my point. Unless you can point to anywhere where I said these were not sciences I fail to see why you keep harping on the point.

Wrong. Both geologists and astrophysicists perform experiments.

It seems there isn't anything about science that you understand

I do understand science, you are the one with the problem here. By insisting that experimentation is the only valid way of proving something you ignore the richness of the scientific method that relies on observation of observable phenomena.

Black holes have been postulated since 1783 when Reverend John Mitchell first hypothesized that gravity could affect light. Karl Schwarzschild used Einstein's General Theory of Relativity to able to predict the existence of black holes through the use of differential field equations. Current scientific theory states that the Schwarzschild non rotating black hole does not exist.

Theory now describes rotating black holes that are described using Roy Kerr's solution to relativity, that was ultimately refined by Stephen Hawking. These equations described conditions that would be needed to make a black hole, and what we should see it we were able to observe one. In 1972 scientists observed an x-ray source in the Constellation Cygnus that they named Cygnus X-1. Through observation it was determined that Cygnus X-1 had a diameter of less than that of Earth, and a mass about 7 times that of Sol. Thus we discovered our first black hole, and proved the validity of the theory about them, without a single experiment.

The results of this observation were debated, and alternative explanations were offered. all of the alternative explanations have been discounted by the lack of observational data that would point to the other explanations being likely, or even possible. Progress is made so slowly in astrophysics precisely because it is impossible to actually conduct experiments. All you can do is describe what you think will happen if certain conditions are met, and then go out and look for those conditions.

That is why time booked on observatories takes a back seat to new events, and no one has ever observed a nova at the moment it occurs. We have to wait for it to happen, and then examine the evidence and hypothesize based on what we see. Then we wait until the nest star blows up, and hope that someone sees it before it is too late for the date we are waiting for to be observed.

Do astrophysicist conduct experiments? Only if you call the process of thought experiment that describes what we would find if something existed, and then searching for that when something we can observe happens, an experiment. As it is not conducted under controlled conditions, and relies on things entirely beyond the scientists ability to control, I would hesitate to describe it that way myself.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Give an example of how creationism can be taught independent of religion.

Claim it was all done by space aliens and never mention where the aliens came from.

That is neither creationism nor ID

Try again

Either you are saying that Richard Dawkins is a Christian, or you are saying he doesn't know what he is talking about. I am intersted in seeing which it is.

Dawkins appears quite serious about the possibility of Intelligent Alien Design and has mentioned it on a number of occasions. From a recent documentary called "Expelled" we have: BEN STEIN: What do you think is the possibility that Intelligent Design might turn out to be the answer to some issues in genetics or in evolution.

DAWKINS: Well, it could come about in the following way. It could be that at some earlier time, somewhere in the universe, a civilization evolved, probably by some kind of Darwinian means, probably to a very high level of technology, and designed a form of life that they seeded onto perhaps this planet. Now, um, now that is a possibility, and an intriguing possibility. And I suppose it's possible that you might find evidence for that if you look at the details of biochemistry, molecular biology, you might find a signature of some sort of designer.

Richard Dawkins on Intelligent Alien Design

 

[Quantum Windbag]

You are the one telling outright lies. ID involves a lot more than "God designed creation"

ALL CHRISTIANS believe that God designed creation. Very few Christians believe in ID

For example, ID involves the belief that natural selection doesn't happen.

Gee, I thought that ID simply required that intelligence be involved in guiding the process. Glad to know I am wrong.

What is intelligent design?
Intelligent design refers to a scientific research program as well as a community of scientists, philosophers and other scholars who seek evidence of design in nature. The theory of intelligent design holds that certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause, not an undirected process such as natural selection. Through the study and analysis of a system's components, a design theorist is able to determine whether various natural structures are the product of chance, natural law, intelligent design, or some combination thereof. Such research is conducted by observing the types of information produced when intelligent agents act. Scientists then seek to find objects which have those same types of informational properties which we commonly know come from intelligence. Intelligent design has applied these scientific methods to detect design in irreducibly complex biological structures, the complex and specified information content in DNA, the life-sustaining physical architecture of the universe, and the geologically rapid origin of biological diversity in the fossil record during the Cambrian explosion approximately 530 million years ago.

Intelligent Design

Guess I am not the only one. It seems you are putting words in people's mouths again. You seem to have a habit of that.

 

[SmarterThanHick]

I do understand science

FALSE!

you are the one with the problem here. By insisting that experimentation is the only valid way of proving something you ignore the richness of the scientific method that relies on observation of observable phenomena.

Observation used to test a hypothesis is still experimentation, and also uses the scientific method.

Progress is made so slowly in astrophysics precisely because it is impossible to actually conduct experiments. All you can do is describe what you think will happen if certain conditions are met, and then go out and look for those conditions.

That's experimentation: coming up with a hypothesis, and then testing or challenging it against collected data. Why do you think that is any different than any other experiment?

Do astrophysicist conduct experiments? Only if you call the process of thought experiment that describes what we would find if something existed, and then searching for that when something we can observe happens, an experiment.

So then..... yes they are.

As it is not conducted under controlled conditions, and relies on things entirely beyond the scientists ability to control, I would hesitate to describe it that way myself.

While it is obvious enough that better controlling an experiment allows for greater confidence in the conclusions, a poorly controlled experiment is still an experiment. Just because there are factors outside our control does not invalidate the science or scientific method, as there are ALWAYS some portion of biases in varying degree. You can't point to a single setup where every single aspect is controlled and all bias is removed. It's impossible.

"In the last paragraph of his essay, "The World as I See It," Einstein
wrote, "I am satisfied with the mystery of life's eternity and with a
knowledge, a sense, of the marvelous structure of existence - as well
as the humble attempt to understand even a tiny portion of the Reason
that manifests itself in nature." While Einstein referred to the
Designer as "Reason" rather than "God," his writings make it very clear
that he believed that an intelligent Designer crafted our universe and
all that is within it."

First, what Einstein believed 80 years ago has little weight on creationists saying stupid things today. He was a physicist. While genius, his subjective personal beliefs hold zero factual value. It's already a long stretch for you to make the claim that things are "very clear" in his writing about a designer because he capitalized one word. Combined with the fact that his personal beliefs DONT MATTER, you have no claim here.

 

[sangha]

Not by experiment, only by observation. Which is my point. Unless you can point to anywhere where I said these were not sciences I fail to see why you keep harping on the point.

Wrong. Both geologists and astrophysicists perform experiments.

It seems there isn't anything about science that you understand

I do understand science, you are the one with the problem here. By insisting that experimentation is the only valid way of proving something you ignore the richness of the scientific method that relies on observation of observable phenomena.

I see you also don't understand the written word. I never said that experimentation was the way to prove something. You just made that up to cover for your absurd claim that geologists and astrophysicists don't use experiments.

Do astrophysicist conduct experiments? Only if you call the process of thought experiment that describes what we would find if something existed, and then searching for that when something we can observe happens, an experiment. As it is not conducted under controlled conditions, and relies on things entirely beyond the scientists ability to control, I would hesitate to describe it that way myself.

What you hesitate about is of no concern to anyone but yourself (and maybe your friends and family). The fact remains that both astrophysicists and geologists conduct experiments under controlled conditions.

 

[sangha]

Claim it was all done by space aliens and never mention where the aliens came from.

That is neither creationism nor ID

Try again

Either you are saying that Richard Dawkins is a Christian, or you are saying he doesn't know what he is talking about. I am intersted in seeing which it is.

Dawkins appears quite serious about the possibility of Intelligent Alien Design and has mentioned it on a number of occasions. From a recent documentary called "Expelled" we have: BEN STEIN: What do you think is the possibility that Intelligent Design might turn out to be the answer to some issues in genetics or in evolution.

DAWKINS: Well, it could come about in the following way. It could be that at some earlier time, somewhere in the universe, a civilization evolved, probably by some kind of Darwinian means, probably to a very high level of technology, and designed a form of life that they seeded onto perhaps this planet. Now, um, now that is a possibility, and an intriguing possibility. And I suppose it's possible that you might find evidence for that if you look at the details of biochemistry, molecular biology, you might find a signature of some sort of designer.

Richard Dawkins on Intelligent Alien Design

More evidence that you can't read and understand what you've read

Dawkins doesn't believe in Intelligent Design. He believes in "Intelligent Alien Design".

There's a difference, you boob