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This article pretty much boils it down. You have to be totally devoid of any intelligence to believe evolution is responsible for the magnificent creatures we see on the planet. What is astonishing is that so many, in their attempt to deny God and pretend that they are in control of their own destiny, have given up all logical sense to embrace the highest ignorance in the myth of Darwinism. If you can read this article and still believe in the Darwinists party line, then you are a foolish, foolish man, devoid of any logic or reasoning skills. You can go on denying God, but you are going to need to come up with a completely NEW theory other than the joke Darwin proposed. Daws, he asks numerous questions in this article, especially in the section on Fitness. I would welcome your answers to even one of them. Some excerpts...

"This is the long-running and much-debated claim that natural selection, as an explanation of the evolutionary origin of species, is tautological — it cannot be falsified because it attempts no real explanation. It tells us: the kinds of organisms that survive and reproduce are the kinds of organisms that survive and reproduce.... But what is really ridiculous is to suggest that empirical work, simply by virtue of being empirical work, offers a proper test of any particular theory. Certainly the work of evolutionary biologists has brought us many wonderful insights into the lives of organisms — insights of the sort that were being gained long before Darwin."

"Not only do we have great difficulty locating meaningless chance in the context of the actual life of organisms; it now turns out that the one outcome with respect to which randomness of mutation is supposed to obtain — namely, the organism’s fitness — cannot be given any definite or agreed-upon meaning, let alone one that is testable. How then did anyone ever arrive at the conclusion that mutations are random in relation to fitness? There certainly has never been any empirical demonstration of the conclusion, and it is difficult even to conceive the possibility of such a demonstration." And thus the MYTH of Darwinism in a nutshell!!!!!

"Dennett’s contention that through the microscope we “witness the birth of agency, in the first macromolecules that have enough complexity to ‘do things’” is itself an illusion. Neither he nor anyone else has ever witnessed the birth of such agency through a microscope or any other instrument — a fact that many decades of unrestrained speculation about the creation of life some billions of years ago does nothing to change. What we see through the microscope is what we see with our unaided eyes: life comes from life. Living cells, with all their displays of agency, come from other living cells. Open any journal of any sub-sub-subdiscipline of biology, and you will immediately be overwhelmed by suggestions of agency even at the lowest levels. Molecules, we are told to a fault, are bent on regulating, signaling, stimulating, responding, controlling, assisting, suppressing, healing, repairing, sensing, coordinating — and all in a way that can be understood only contextually. There is nothing at any level of observation, whether above or below macromolecules, that is not caught up in the meaningful life of the organism as a whole."

Such, then, is the living reality that Dawkins refers to as the “appearance of design” or the “illusion of design and planning.”[6] It is also what Dennett has in mind when he writes, “All the Design in the universe can be explained as the product of a process that is ultimately bereft of intelligence, in other words an algorithmic process that weds randomness and selection to produce ... all the intelligence that exists.”[7] (Dawkins and Dennett sometimes seem fixated upon design, presumably as a result of their severely constraining preoccupation with religion and [FYI, the author disassociates himself from ID and Creationism so there went that argument DAWS] with the “creationism” or “intelligent design” promulgated by some religious folks. Although the word has its legitimate uses, you will not find me speaking of design, simply because — as I’ve made abundantly clear in previous articles — organisms cannot be understood as having been designed, machine-like, whether by an engineer-God or a Blind Watchmaker elevated to god-like status."

"In fact, we are no longer free to imagine that evolution waits around for “accidents” to knock genes askew so as to provide new material for natural selection to work on. The genome of every organism is actively and insistently remodeled as an expression of its context. Genetic sequences get rewritten, reshuffled, duplicated, turned backward, “invented” from scratch, and otherwise revised in a way that prominently advertises the organism’s accomplished skill in matters of genomic change. The illustrations of this skill are so extensive in the contemporary literature that there is no way to review it adequately here."

"And then, finally, we must be sure to pay no heed to the fact that the fitness, against which we have assumed our notion of randomness could be defined, is one of the most obscure, ill-formed concepts in all of science."

This “something random” looks every bit as wishful as the appeal to a miracle. It is the central miracle in a gospel of meaninglessness, a “Randomness of the gaps,” demanding an extraordinarily blind faith.

The New Atlantis » Evolution and the Illusion of Randomness
 
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This article pretty much boils it down. You have to be totally devoid of any intelligence to believe evolution is responsible for the magnificent creatures we see on the planet. What is astonishing is that so many, in their attempt to deny God and pretend that they are in control of their own destiny, have given up all logical sense to embrace the highest ignorance in the myth of Darwinism. If you can read this article and still believe in the Darwinists party line, then you are a foolish, foolish man, devoid of any logic or reasoning skills. You can go on denying God, but you are going to need to come up with a completely NEW theory other than the joke Darwin proposed. Daws, he asks numerous questions in this article, especially in the section on Fitness. I would welcome your answers to even one of them. Some excerpts...

"This is the long-running and much-debated claim that natural selection, as an explanation of the evolutionary origin of species, is tautological — it cannot be falsified because it attempts no real explanation. It tells us: the kinds of organisms that survive and reproduce are the kinds of organisms that survive and reproduce.... But what is really ridiculous is to suggest that empirical work, simply by virtue of being empirical work, offers a proper test of any particular theory. Certainly the work of evolutionary biologists has brought us many wonderful insights into the lives of organisms — insights of the sort that were being gained long before Darwin."

"Not only do we have great difficulty locating meaningless chance in the context of the actual life of organisms; it now turns out that the one outcome with respect to which randomness of mutation is supposed to obtain — namely, the organism’s fitness — cannot be given any definite or agreed-upon meaning, let alone one that is testable. How then did anyone ever arrive at the conclusion that mutations are random in relation to fitness? There certainly has never been any empirical demonstration of the conclusion, and it is difficult even to conceive the possibility of such a demonstration." And thus the MYTH of Darwinism in a nutshell!!!!!

"Dennett’s contention that through the microscope we “witness the birth of agency, in the first macromolecules that have enough complexity to ‘do things’” is itself an illusion. Neither he nor anyone else has ever witnessed the birth of such agency through a microscope or any other instrument — a fact that many decades of unrestrained speculation about the creation of life some billions of years ago does nothing to change. What we see through the microscope is what we see with our unaided eyes: life comes from life. Living cells, with all their displays of agency, come from other living cells. Open any journal of any sub-sub-subdiscipline of biology, and you will immediately be overwhelmed by suggestions of agency even at the lowest levels. Molecules, we are told to a fault, are bent on regulating, signaling, stimulating, responding, controlling, assisting, suppressing, healing, repairing, sensing, coordinating — and all in a way that can be understood only contextually. There is nothing at any level of observation, whether above or below macromolecules, that is not caught up in the meaningful life of the organism as a whole."

Such, then, is the living reality that Dawkins refers to as the “appearance of design” or the “illusion of design and planning.”[6] It is also what Dennett has in mind when he writes, “All the Design in the universe can be explained as the product of a process that is ultimately bereft of intelligence, in other words an algorithmic process that weds randomness and selection to produce ... all the intelligence that exists.”[7] (Dawkins and Dennett sometimes seem fixated upon design, presumably as a result of their severely constraining preoccupation with religion and [FYI, the author disassociates himself from ID and Creationism so there went that argument DAWS] with the “creationism” or “intelligent design” promulgated by some religious folks. Although the word has its legitimate uses, you will not find me speaking of design, simply because — as I’ve made abundantly clear in previous articles — organisms cannot be understood as having been designed, machine-like, whether by an engineer-God or a Blind Watchmaker elevated to god-like status."

"In fact, we are no longer free to imagine that evolution waits around for “accidents” to knock genes askew so as to provide new material for natural selection to work on. The genome of every organism is actively and insistently remodeled as an expression of its context. Genetic sequences get rewritten, reshuffled, duplicated, turned backward, “invented” from scratch, and otherwise revised in a way that prominently advertises the organism’s accomplished skill in matters of genomic change. The illustrations of this skill are so extensive in the contemporary literature that there is no way to review it adequately here."

"And then, finally, we must be sure to pay no heed to the fact that the fitness, against which we have assumed our notion of randomness could be defined, is one of the most obscure, ill-formed concepts in all of science."

This “something random” looks every bit as wishful as the appeal to a miracle. It is the central miracle in a gospel of meaninglessness, a “Randomness of the gaps,” demanding an extraordinarily blind faith.

The New Atlantis » Evolution and the Illusion of Randomness

I believe there is order in the universe...

I believe that, behind that order, there's a mysterious force beyond our understanding... for the sake of simplicity (among other things), I refer to that mysterious force as "god"...

I believe that "evolution", as commonly described and understood, is a valid concept...

I believe that evolution is derived from the order inherent in the Universe... and that, therefore, evolution is a godly thing...
 
I believe there is order in the universe...

I believe that, behind that order, there's a mysterious force beyond our understanding... for the sake of simplicity (among other things), I refer to that mysterious force as "god"...

I believe that "evolution", as commonly described and understood, is a valid concept...

I believe that evolution is derived from the order inherent in the Universe... and that, therefore, evolution is a godly thing...

As evidenced by bill's post, there is no reason to assume that belief in evolution is dependent on disbelief in god. Plenty of people who believe in god also believe that evolution occurs. The idea that the two are inherently connected is false. It is only religious belief that directly contradicts evolutionary theory that causes conflict, not all religious belief; and is only religious belief that directly contradicts evolutionary theory that those who ascribe to evolution would necessarily try to disprove, not all religious belief.

I'm not sure why you think that 'so many' are attempting to deny god, when so many claim to believe in god, including many who believe in evolutionary theory.

EDIT : The 'you' I am referring to is UltimateReality. I didn't quote the previous post for brevity's sake, but then forgot that it might leave it unclear who I was speaking to.
 
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I believe there is order in the universe...

I believe that, behind that order, there's a mysterious force beyond our understanding... for the sake of simplicity (among other things), I refer to that mysterious force as "god"...

I believe that "evolution", as commonly described and understood, is a valid concept...

I believe that evolution is derived from the order inherent in the Universe... and that, therefore, evolution is a godly thing...

As evidenced by bill's post, there is no reason to assume that belief in evolution is dependent on disbelief in god. Plenty of people who believe in god also believe that evolution occurs. The idea that the two are inherently connected is false. It is only religious belief that directly contradicts evolutionary theory that causes conflict, not all religious belief; and is only religious belief that directly contradicts evolutionary theory that those who ascribe to evolution would necessarily try to disprove, not all religious belief.

I'm not sure why you think that 'so many' are attempting to deny god, when so many claim to believe in god, including many who believe in evolutionary theory.

EDIT : The 'you' I am referring to is UltimateReality. I didn't quote the previous post for brevity's sake, but then forgot that it might leave it unclear who I was speaking to.

Respectfully,You can say that unless you read the scriptures.
 
I believe there is order in the universe...

I believe that, behind that order, there's a mysterious force beyond our understanding... for the sake of simplicity (among other things), I refer to that mysterious force as "god"...

I believe that "evolution", as commonly described and understood, is a valid concept...

I believe that evolution is derived from the order inherent in the Universe... and that, therefore, evolution is a godly thing...

As evidenced by bill's post, there is no reason to assume that belief in evolution is dependent on disbelief in god. Plenty of people who believe in god also believe that evolution occurs. The idea that the two are inherently connected is false. It is only religious belief that directly contradicts evolutionary theory that causes conflict, not all religious belief; and is only religious belief that directly contradicts evolutionary theory that those who ascribe to evolution would necessarily try to disprove, not all religious belief.

I'm not sure why you think that 'so many' are attempting to deny god, when so many claim to believe in god, including many who believe in evolutionary theory.

EDIT : The 'you' I am referring to is UltimateReality. I didn't quote the previous post for brevity's sake, but then forgot that it might leave it unclear who I was speaking to.

Respectfully,You can say that unless you read the scriptures.

The bible is as open to interpretation as any religious text. See the number of different sects of Christianity as evidence that not everyone will read the scriptures and get the same meaning from them.
 
I believe there is order in the universe...

I believe that, behind that order, there's a mysterious force beyond our understanding... for the sake of simplicity (among other things), I refer to that mysterious force as "god"...

I believe that "evolution", as commonly described and understood, is a valid concept...

I believe that evolution is derived from the order inherent in the Universe... and that, therefore, evolution is a godly thing...

As evidenced by bill's post, there is no reason to assume that belief in evolution is dependent on disbelief in god. Plenty of people who believe in god also believe that evolution occurs. The idea that the two are inherently connected is false. It is only religious belief that directly contradicts evolutionary theory that causes conflict, not all religious belief; and is only religious belief that directly contradicts evolutionary theory that those who ascribe to evolution would necessarily try to disprove, not all religious belief.

I'm not sure why you think that 'so many' are attempting to deny god, when so many claim to believe in god, including many who believe in evolutionary theory.

EDIT : The 'you' I am referring to is UltimateReality. I didn't quote the previous post for brevity's sake, but then forgot that it might leave it unclear who I was speaking to.

It is astonishing to me that with all the points made in that article, you locked onto my purely religious commentary preceding quotes for the article. Let's just forget my religious bias for a second... did you happen to see how utterly flawed the theory of evolution is at its very core???

"Not only do we have great difficulty locating meaningless chance in the context of the actual life of organisms; it now turns out that the one outcome with respect to which randomness of mutation is supposed to obtain — namely, the organism’s fitness — cannot be given any definite or agreed-upon meaning, let alone one that is testable. How then did anyone ever arrive at the conclusion that mutations are random in relation to fitness?"

I would like someone to comment on what the accepted definition of fitness is, since the whole theory hinges on this!!! Did you catch the part about it not being testable?

I am always a little aggravated when religious folks don't know what they believe. You talk of many different ways of interpreting the Bible but the absolute irony is that in the posts preceding this one, several of you have preached what appears to be your own interpretation of Darwinism. Do you not see that Darwinism as taught in the schools and by the prophet Dawkins, has denial of the Creator at its core? You may have reconciled yourself somehow to believe in both God and evolution, but that is not what the party line teaches. "It's turtles all the way down." The Darwinian lie is foisted on us by Materialists. Materialism is a religion, with metaphysical tennants, maded up of folks who believe that matter is the ONLY reality. To claim that God or some Intelligent Agent, or some as yet undiscovered mysterious force, can exist in harmony with the TOE is based on an absolute lack of understanding of what the theory teaches, or a gross mis-interpretation, or even worse, total ignorance of Evolutionary theory's basic tennants because one has never questioned anything regarding the "fact" of evolution for themselves. I suppose you could be a Deist and believe God started it and evolution did the rest but again this belief, as evidenced above, is not based on any real sciene. I have to wonder how so many could have been misled by such a baseless, scienceless theory unless something more sinister is going on, but that is my personal opinion based on my religious beliefs. For example, I have asked many times on this forum for someone to provide me with evidence on what the TOE teaches is the common ancestor. Or I've asked for someone to point out the specific point at which origin of life questions or theory ends, and Darwinism begins. No one has ever responded.

Don't buy for one second that just because you believe in Evolution you are not religious. Materialism is a religion my friends. It takes just as much faith to believe, especially when the house of cards is starting to fall because folks are daring to ask simple questions that should have been asked along time ago. The theory has serious issues and I'll say it one more time, I can't possible understand why so many have flocked to believe with so little REAL SCIENTIFIC evidence unless there is an underlying motivation to irradicate God. How else could the masses have been so duped????? So called intelligent men will accept any willy nilly explanation to continue to force fit the theory to reality. At some point it is almost like mass hypnosis has occurred.

DAWS, please point me to some viable information on the testability of fitness as it relates to the crux of the whole critical pillar of evolutionary theory, i.e., natural selection. I am blown away that, as in the explanation of the Giraffe's long neck (which is just one of thousands of "we think this is why" explanations evolutionary theory proposes), somewhere along the way smart men accepted the hypothesis about high food sources as fact without so much as any thought, questions, further investigation, study, or experiment. Simply astonishing!!! It's like the whole TOE has been taken on blind faith, without so much as one legitimate experiment to confirm natural selection is capable of the miracles claimed for it.

It truly is the "randomness of the gaps" religion.
 
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As evidenced by bill's post, there is no reason to assume that belief in evolution is dependent on disbelief in god. Plenty of people who believe in god also believe that evolution occurs. The idea that the two are inherently connected is false. It is only religious belief that directly contradicts evolutionary theory that causes conflict, not all religious belief; and is only religious belief that directly contradicts evolutionary theory that those who ascribe to evolution would necessarily try to disprove, not all religious belief.

I'm not sure why you think that 'so many' are attempting to deny god, when so many claim to believe in god, including many who believe in evolutionary theory.

EDIT : The 'you' I am referring to is UltimateReality. I didn't quote the previous post for brevity's sake, but then forgot that it might leave it unclear who I was speaking to.

Respectfully,You can say that unless you read the scriptures.

The bible is as open to interpretation as any religious text. See the number of different sects of Christianity as evidence that not everyone will read the scriptures and get the same meaning from them.

Because they didn't study it enough. Every doctrine that is tought it either can be verified or disqualified through a thourough study of the scriptures.
 
geez... I love Jesus and I love science... but this guy is an embarrassment on both counts...

Jesus never once mentions the creation of the world but his followers sure seem to know a helluva alot about how the world was made. Why, you think they know more than God hisself... :eusa_whistle:

I have to disagree with you.

He created all things in the beginning.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 He was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things came into being through Him, and without Him not even one thing came into being that has come into being.


You can read the genesis account for more details.
 
I have to disagree with you.

He created all things in the beginning.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 He was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things came into being through Him, and without Him not even one thing came into being that has come into being.


You can read the genesis account for more details.

I'm not going to be tricked by that bit of "Word" play, which is merely an English translation of a Greek philosophical term (Logos, or Word, first used by Heraclitus of Ephesus). Anyone with a halfway decent education in the classics (i.e. comparative religion, history, philosophy, etc.) can blow the nebulous assertions in the Bible out of the water. :cuckoo:

As an example:

Logos-as-Son-of-God, first synthesized by Philo Judaeus, who was influeced by the Stoics.
Trinities of gods, a universal component of the ancient heathen mythology.

Etc.

I guess Jesus must've been a Greek philosopher or a hierophant of the heathen mysteries then? If not why do the doctrines of Greek philosophers, pagan cults, etc. keep showing up in the New Testament?

As to Genesis, the creation tale is standard fare for ancient Near Eastern creation fables, save that a single divine force rather than a pantheon of deities is the First Cause.
 
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UltimateReality : calling evolution a religion doesn't make it so.

YWC : believing you know the only correct way to interpret scripture doesn't make it so.

I didn't call evolution a religion. I called Materialism a religion. Evolution is a tennant of Materialism. Seriously, that is all you could come up with in response???
 
Who We Are
The Nature Institute, founded in 1998, is a small, independent not-for-profit organization in upstate New York with a proven track record for incisive and thoughtful research studies, publications, and education programs. The Institute serves as a local, national, and international forum for research, education, and the exchange of ideas about the re-visioning of science and technology in an effort to realign humanity with nature. Biologist and Institute founder and director Craig Holdrege, senior researcher and publications' editor Steve Talbott, associate researcher Henrike Holdrege, and affiliate researchers Michael D'Aleo, Johannes Wirz, and Ronald Brady (deceased) have authored books and articles while also speaking at conferences, leading workshops, training teachers, and lecturing widely.


The Nature Institute - About Us


.Religion & SpiritualityOctober 21, 2010
Add a commentChancellor Merkel: Are we talking about the same Goethe?
Linda Van Slyke
Albany Interfaith Spirituality Examiner
+.Germany’s Chancellor Angela Merkel invoked the “sacred” name of Goethe recently when defending her uni-cultural views before a sympathetic audience of Christian Democratic Union (CDU) members.

According to Berlin’s AFP, Merkel announced that Germany has the right to “make demands” on immigrants “such as mastering the language of Goethe…” shortly after she also proclaimed this: We feel tied to Christian values. Those who don’t accept them don’t have a place here.

All this begs the question: Just what was the language of Goethe? Assuming that “language” is not just phonics and syntax, a glance at Goethe’s own philosophical/theological sayings and writings could perhaps help to answer that question.

Although Goethe was born into a Lutheran family, he spent a lifetime grappling with his conflicted feelings about Christianity. When he was 32, he described himself as “not anti-Christian, nor un-Christian, but most decidedly non-Christian.” However, Eckermann - in his book Conversations with Goethe - portrayed
(his boss) Goethe as being so enthusiastic about Christianity as to call it the “ultimate religion.”

As did his own character Faust, Goethe seems to have struggled throughout a lifetime of ambivalence concerning religion. As did Faust in Part Two, Goethe seems to have made some kind of peace with all this towards the end of his days. In a letter dated only a year before his death, Goethe wrote enthusiastically about the Hypsistarians “…who, hemmed in between heathens, Jews and Christians, declared that they would treasure, admire, and honor the best, the most perfect that might come to their knowledge, and in as much as it must have a close connection to the Godhead, pay it reverence…”

Sounds like Goethe’s own words and views might have been greatly removed from the homogeneous society that Chancellor Merkel seems to be aiming towards. Although duly hinted at, the true “language of Goethe” seems nowhere to be found within Merkel’s recent rhetoric.

Did you know…


The Nature Institute in Ghent NY does seem to have a handle on Goethe’s true language. Click here for a description of their Goethean approach to seeing nature as a living whole.

If you found this informative, you might also like...

Felix Mendelssohn: A midsummer night's dilemma

once again UR uses a bias source THAT HAS NO EMPERICAL EVIDENCE TO SUPPORT IT'S CLAIM!
in other words it's creationism with a face lift!
 
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Who We Are
The Nature Institute, founded in 1998, is a small, independent not-for-profit organization in upstate New York with a proven track record for incisive and thoughtful research studies, publications, and education programs. The Institute serves as a local, national, and international forum for research, education, and the exchange of ideas about the re-visioning of science and technology in an effort to realign humanity with nature. Biologist and Institute founder and director Craig Holdrege, senior researcher and publications' editor Steve Talbott, associate researcher Henrike Holdrege, and affiliate researchers Michael D'Aleo, Johannes Wirz, and Ronald Brady (deceased) have authored books and articles while also speaking at conferences, leading workshops, training teachers, and lecturing widely.


The Nature Institute - About Us

Avoiding the Issue
A reasoner who is supposed to address an issue but instead goes off on a tangent has committed the fallacy of avoiding the issue. Also called missing the point, straying off the subject, digressing, and not sticking to the issue.

Example:


A city official is charged with corruption for awarding contracts to his wife’s consulting firm. In speaking to a reporter about why he is innocent, the city official talks only about his wife’s conservative wardrobe, the family’s lovable dog, and his own accomplishments in supporting Little League baseball.
 
Who We Are
The Nature Institute, founded in 1998, is a small, independent not-for-profit organization in upstate New York with a proven track record for incisive and thoughtful research studies, publications, and education programs. The Institute serves as a local, national, and international forum for research, education, and the exchange of ideas about the re-visioning of science and technology in an effort to realign humanity with nature. Biologist and Institute founder and director Craig Holdrege, senior researcher and publications' editor Steve Talbott, associate researcher Henrike Holdrege, and affiliate researchers Michael D'Aleo, Johannes Wirz, and Ronald Brady (deceased) have authored books and articles while also speaking at conferences, leading workshops, training teachers, and lecturing widely.


The Nature Institute - About Us

Avoiding the Issue
A reasoner who is supposed to address an issue but instead goes off on a tangent has committed the fallacy of avoiding the issue. Also called missing the point, straying off the subject, digressing, and not sticking to the issue.

Example:


A city official is charged with corruption for awarding contracts to his wife’s consulting firm. In speaking to a reporter about why he is innocent, the city official talks only about his wife’s conservative wardrobe, the family’s lovable dog, and his own accomplishments in supporting Little League baseball.
wrong as always ! the issue here is credibility of the evidence...or a lack of it in your case.
you constantly post speculation, myth and fantasy and try to play it off as fact.
all in an effort to rationalize the non rational .
 
I have to disagree with you.

He created all things in the beginning.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 He was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things came into being through Him, and without Him not even one thing came into being that has come into being.


You can read the genesis account for more details.

I'm not going to be tricked by that bit of "Word" play, which is merely an English translation of a Greek philosophical term (Logos, or Word, first used by Heraclitus of Ephesus). Anyone with a halfway decent education in the classics (i.e. comparative religion, history, philosophy, etc.) can blow the nebulous assertions in the Bible out of the water. :cuckoo:

As an example:

Logos-as-Son-of-God, first synthesized by Philo Judaeus, who was influeced by the Stoics.
Trinities of gods, a universal component of the ancient heathen mythology.

Etc.

I guess Jesus must've been a Greek philosopher or a hierophant of the heathen mysteries then? If not why do the doctrines of Greek philosophers, pagan cults, etc. keep showing up in the New Testament?

As to Genesis, the creation tale is standard fare for ancient Near Eastern creation fables, save that a single divine force rather than a pantheon of deities is the First Cause.

John the author borrowed the use of the term "Word" not only from the vocabulary of the Old Testament but also from Greek Philosophy, in which the term was essentially impersonal, signifying the rational principle of "divine reason", "mind", or even "wisdom". John, however, imbued the term entirely with Old Testament and Christian meaning, where God's Word is His powerful self expression in Creation, wisdom, revelation and salvation, and made it refer to a person, i.e., Jesus the Christ. Greek philosophical usage is not the exclusive background of John's thought. Strategically, the term "Word" serves as a bridge word to reach not only Jews, but also Greeks. Both would have been familiar with it.
 
you constantly post speculation, myth and fantasy and try to play it off as fact.

Projecting. This is exactly what evolution theorists do.

You haven't responded to one single point in the article, I'm assuming, because you can't. You are just as blind and brainwashed as the rest. You wouldn't denounce evolution of Darwin appeared to you in the flesh and told you it was all a trick he made up.
 
What most of you haters, and many Christians, do is violate the principle of Hermenutics. Throughout history, people have used the Bible erroneously to prove their point. Folks on this forum are notorious for quoting scripture out of context, not only the context of the specific book, but in relation to the whole Bible. They have no understanding of how the New Revalation relates to the Old. The also have no understanding of the historical context.The funny thing about this is they seem totally oblivious to history. Up until the 19th century, countless men had devoted their entire lives to the study of the Bible. Many of the points brought up here have already been discussed and wrestled with for centuries, but you all act like you are bringing up some new point or revelation. That is just pure arrogance and most of you really are at the center of your own universe, totally oblivious to anything outside your little box. Many are the product of Historical Revisionism and the dumbing down of our education system. It must be this lack of teaching of critical thought that made it so easy to pass of the seriously flawed TOE to so many mindless individuals. The lack of questions being brought against the Darwin fable are alarming.

Five main principles of Biblical Hermenutics(1):

1. The Literal Principle: Usus Loquendi

2. A Historical Principle: Now, when the Scripture was written, they understood what was said clearly. Just like the Constitution: when it was written everybody understood what they meant. Here we are a few hundred years later trying to figure out what they meant. Why? Because history is different. Time has passed. Culture has changed. Circumstances have changed, and even language has changed.

3. Grammatical Principle: You go to a text of Scripture and you have to approach it grammatically. This is called syntax. Lexigraphy is the study of words, syntax is the study of the relationship of words. You have to learn about verbs and adverbs and adjectives and you have to learn about infinitives and participles and you have to learn about prepositions. You have to learn about conjugating verbs and you have to learn about cases for nouns and substantives. Ablative and genitive and all of that, accusative, nominative. You learn all of the structure of language.

4. The Synthesis Principle: The Old Reformers used the expression "Scriptura Intra Pratatum" (sp.). What that means is that Scripture is its own interpreter. And you use the Synthesis Principle. What does that mean? That I always interpret a given passage in the Bible in the light of the rest of the Bible.

5. The Practical Principle: The final question you ask, you go through this whole process, starting out, "All right what's the literal meaning here?" Then you move to, "What's the historical background? The context? What are all the grammatical components here? How does this synthesize with the rest of Scripture? And then the last question you ask is, "So what? What does it mean to me? What does it have to do with me?

Then #6 which is purely a religious principle:

6. The Holy Spirit Principle: It basically infers that the Holy Spirit can speak to us through scripture.

One of my favorite mis-interpretations of the Bible is the Catholics claim that Jesus handed the Christian church to Peter, who is basically credited with being the founder of the Catholic church. It hinges on the statement in the Bible in which Jesus says, "Upon this rock I will build my church and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." Catholics think Jesus was talking to Petra, because his name means rock, but they miss the whole context of WHERE this statement was made. Jesus was standing in front of a large ROCK at Cesari of Philippi. It was a rock cliff where many pagan rituals were performed. When taken in the context of location, Christ was saying the church would be born from the conversion of the pagan worshipers. Then it should be no coincidence that all the Christian holidays were formerly pagan holidays. It should be noted that the cave was commonly referred to as the gates of hell.

Lion Tracks Photo QnA -- Caesarea Philippi (Banias, Panias, Panium) in Israel. Site of question "Who do you say that I am?" by Jesus.

Gates of Hell | Follow The Rabbi

Banias - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Hermeneutics - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

(1) Borrowed from Jon MacArthur: Charismatic Chaos
 
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I have to disagree with you.

He created all things in the beginning.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 He was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things came into being through Him, and without Him not even one thing came into being that has come into being.


You can read the genesis account for more details.

I'm not going to be tricked by that bit of "Word" play, which is merely an English translation of a Greek philosophical term (Logos, or Word, first used by Heraclitus of Ephesus). Anyone with a halfway decent education in the classics (i.e. comparative religion, history, philosophy, etc.) can blow the nebulous assertions in the Bible out of the water. :cuckoo:

As an example:

Logos-as-Son-of-God, first synthesized by Philo Judaeus, who was influeced by the Stoics.
Trinities of gods, a universal component of the ancient heathen mythology.

Etc.

I guess Jesus must've been a Greek philosopher or a hierophant of the heathen mysteries then? If not why do the doctrines of Greek philosophers, pagan cults, etc. keep showing up in the New Testament?

As to Genesis, the creation tale is standard fare for ancient Near Eastern creation fables, save that a single divine force rather than a pantheon of deities is the First Cause.

No word games on my part just quoting the scriptures,and no Jesus was not a Greek philosopher nor were his followers.

The scriptures are all we have to go by and we believe the scriptures through faith. But there are some things spoken of that can be put to the test concerning science. Archaeologist are aiding them in finding cities of old,imagine that.
 
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