Current law and police work catch guys selling illegal guns in Chicago, no new laws needed...

[BULLDOG]

Yes, those were what is known as straw purchasers. Not the same as individual sellers who can legally sell their guns to anybody without any background check, paperwork, or records of any kind. They aren't even required to ask the purchaser's name.

And of course you have no idea what you are talking about with this issue.....the criminal buying the gun....can already be arrested for buying the gun....using current laws and current police work. Selling private property is not a crime.....you want to make it a crime. The anti gun leadership want to use universal background checks to get universal gun registration...they could give a rats ass about criminals getting guns from private sellers....all they want is to get universal background checks so that they can then demand universal gun registration...you can't have universal background checks without registering all guns...other wise you won't know who originally had the gun.

And criminals will still get guns even if you mandated a background check for private sales......these guys...they went to a licensed gun dealer....filled out the paperwork, went through the background check, the gun store kept records of the sale....

And the licensed gun dealer even asked them their names......and they even told the dealer their names....

And they took those legally purchased guns, having gone through all of your hoops....and sold the guns to felons......

Universal background checks will be passed by the same people because they can pass background checks....criminals will use those people to buy their guns and if they want a gun a private seller has, they will use friends and family and other straw buyers who can already pass background checks...making your post silly and pointless....

Who wants people to stop selling private property? I just want to keep people who can't legally buy guns from buying guns. Universal background checks will help with that.

Yeah right. Except when they don't do the check and sell the gun anyway.

That's what they are doing now. There is no requirement to do a check for person to person sales.

But it is illegal to sell a gun to a minor or any adult not legally eligible to buy a gun.

They aren't required to ask those things. How is the seller going to know?

 

[BULLDOG]

Lots of things without a 100% failsafe enforcement ability. Wiring and plumbing in a house are supposed to meet certain codes. There is no way to tell if a home owner did his own sub standard work and didn't bother requesting an inspection unless there is some problem that brings the substandard work to light at a later date. Even something as ubiquitous as having a license to drive a car can't be 100% failsafe. The cop doesn't know if you have a license to drive unless he has some reason to pull you over and check. Again, a hefty fine, but that is also after the fact. Honest sellers will do background checks, but some small number of sellers won't, and that small number won't be known unless something happens later to bring it to light. At that point, there are hefty fines, so most don't want to take a chance, and will do it properly. How are universal background checks any different? Catch a seller selling without a background check, give them a hefty fine, or some other appropriate punishment.

How, EXACTLY, do you want that enforced? Be specific. Stop tap-dancing and answer the question!

Also note: the law simply is not enforceable.

Already answered.

 

[Jarlaxle]

Lots of things without a 100% failsafe enforcement ability. Wiring and plumbing in a house are supposed to meet certain codes. There is no way to tell if a home owner did his own sub standard work and didn't bother requesting an inspection unless there is some problem that brings the substandard work to light at a later date. Even something as ubiquitous as having a license to drive a car can't be 100% failsafe. The cop doesn't know if you have a license to drive unless he has some reason to pull you over and check. Again, a hefty fine, but that is also after the fact. Honest sellers will do background checks, but some small number of sellers won't, and that small number won't be known unless something happens later to bring it to light. At that point, there are hefty fines, so most don't want to take a chance, and will do it properly. How are universal background checks any different? Catch a seller selling without a background check, give them a hefty fine, or some other appropriate punishment.

How, EXACTLY, do you want that enforced? Be specific. Stop tap-dancing and answer the question!

Also note: the law simply is not enforceable.

Already answered.

In other words: you have no idea, but it SOUNDS good. The law is simply not enforceable.

Your concession is duly noted.

 

[BULLDOG]

Lots of things without a 100% failsafe enforcement ability. Wiring and plumbing in a house are supposed to meet certain codes. There is no way to tell if a home owner did his own sub standard work and didn't bother requesting an inspection unless there is some problem that brings the substandard work to light at a later date. Even something as ubiquitous as having a license to drive a car can't be 100% failsafe. The cop doesn't know if you have a license to drive unless he has some reason to pull you over and check. Again, a hefty fine, but that is also after the fact. Honest sellers will do background checks, but some small number of sellers won't, and that small number won't be known unless something happens later to bring it to light. At that point, there are hefty fines, so most don't want to take a chance, and will do it properly. How are universal background checks any different? Catch a seller selling without a background check, give them a hefty fine, or some other appropriate punishment.

How, EXACTLY, do you want that enforced? Be specific. Stop tap-dancing and answer the question!

Also note: the law simply is not enforceable.

Already answered.

In other words: you have no idea, but it SOUNDS good. The law is simply not enforceable.

Your concession is duly noted.

It's as enforceable as building codes and drivers licenses.

 

[Jarlaxle]

Whooooooooooooooosssssssssssssshhhhhhhhhhhhhhh..................

I gues I have to spoon-feed you, you just aren't that bright: it is an ex post facto law, you blithering idiot!

 

[BULLDOG]

Whooooooooooooooosssssssssssssshhhhhhhhhhhhhhh..................

I gues I have to spoon-feed you, you just aren't that bright: it is an ex post facto law, you blithering idiot!

How so?

 

[2aguy]

Yes, those were what is known as straw purchasers. Not the same as individual sellers who can legally sell their guns to anybody without any background check, paperwork, or records of any kind. They aren't even required to ask the purchaser's name.

And of course you have no idea what you are talking about with this issue.....the criminal buying the gun....can already be arrested for buying the gun....using current laws and current police work. Selling private property is not a crime.....you want to make it a crime. The anti gun leadership want to use universal background checks to get universal gun registration...they could give a rats ass about criminals getting guns from private sellers....all they want is to get universal background checks so that they can then demand universal gun registration...you can't have universal background checks without registering all guns...other wise you won't know who originally had the gun.

And criminals will still get guns even if you mandated a background check for private sales......these guys...they went to a licensed gun dealer....filled out the paperwork, went through the background check, the gun store kept records of the sale....

And the licensed gun dealer even asked them their names......and they even told the dealer their names....

And they took those legally purchased guns, having gone through all of your hoops....and sold the guns to felons......

Universal background checks will be passed by the same people because they can pass background checks....criminals will use those people to buy their guns and if they want a gun a private seller has, they will use friends and family and other straw buyers who can already pass background checks...making your post silly and pointless....

Who wants people to stop selling private property? I just want to keep people who can't legally buy guns from buying guns. Universal background checks will help with that.

How, EXACTLY, do you want that enforced? Be specific.

Lots of things without a 100% failsafe enforcement ability. Wiring and plumbing in a house are supposed to meet certain codes. There is no way to tell if a home owner did his own sub standard work and didn't bother requesting an inspection unless there is some problem that brings the substandard work to light at a later date. Even something as ubiquitous as having a license to drive a car can't be 100% failsafe. The cop doesn't know if you have a license to drive unless he has some reason to pull you over and check. Again, a hefty fine, but that is also after the fact. Honest sellers will do background checks, but some small number of sellers won't, and that small number won't be known unless something happens later to bring it to light. At that point, there are hefty fines, so most don't want to take a chance, and will do it properly. How are universal background checks any different? Catch a seller selling without a background check, give them a hefty fine, or some other appropriate punishment.

Nope....guns are private property.....we have a right to sell our own property in this country, comrade. Punish the actual criminal who buys the gun illegally, that is how you actually make a difference, lock them up for 30 years. As this thread shows......

They caught the actual illegal gun seller without the background check doing anything since he passed the background check....and still sold the gun to a criminal...

The first post of this thread shows your idea doesn't work...at all.....

The guy who sold the gun to the criminal...passed the current FEDERAL background check....he would pass any future private sale background check...so you whole point doesn't mean anything since it has been shown, here in this thread, that it is unnecessary to catch people intentionally selling guns to criminals.....

These guys were caught with current police techniques...they did not go through a background check....

Your whole premise is dumb.

 

[2aguy]

Yes, those were what is known as straw purchasers. Not the same as individual sellers who can legally sell their guns to anybody without any background check, paperwork, or records of any kind. They aren't even required to ask the purchaser's name.

Private Gun Sale Laws by State - FindLaw

It is illegal in every state to sell a firearm to anyone legally prohibited from owning one.

And besides that people who want to illegally buy a gun will not seek out strangers for a private sale but will instead get guns from other criminal acquaintances or have a known friend or family member make a straw purchase

Yes, if the seller knows the purchaser is legally prohibited from owning a gun. The seller isn't even required to ask the purchasers name, and certainly isn't required to find out if he is selling to someone who legally can't have a gun. How is he supposed to know if the purchaser is prohibited from owning a gun?

The guy who bought the gun in this story....filled out federal paperwork...went through a federal mandated background check, and gave his name to the gun seller...and the seller found out that the guy buying the gun was legally able to do it....

That guy then took the gun and sold it to a guy he knew was a criminal, no paperwork, no background check....

And he was still caught without any of the things you say would stop this.......

This thread shows that the things you want are not needed to get the job done......

 

[2aguy]

And of course you have no idea what you are talking about with this issue.....the criminal buying the gun....can already be arrested for buying the gun....using current laws and current police work. Selling private property is not a crime.....you want to make it a crime. The anti gun leadership want to use universal background checks to get universal gun registration...they could give a rats ass about criminals getting guns from private sellers....all they want is to get universal background checks so that they can then demand universal gun registration...you can't have universal background checks without registering all guns...other wise you won't know who originally had the gun.

And criminals will still get guns even if you mandated a background check for private sales......these guys...they went to a licensed gun dealer....filled out the paperwork, went through the background check, the gun store kept records of the sale....

And the licensed gun dealer even asked them their names......and they even told the dealer their names....

And they took those legally purchased guns, having gone through all of your hoops....and sold the guns to felons......

Universal background checks will be passed by the same people because they can pass background checks....criminals will use those people to buy their guns and if they want a gun a private seller has, they will use friends and family and other straw buyers who can already pass background checks...making your post silly and pointless....

Who wants people to stop selling private property? I just want to keep people who can't legally buy guns from buying guns. Universal background checks will help with that.

Yeah right. Except when they don't do the check and sell the gun anyway.

That's what they are doing now. There is no requirement to do a check for person to person sales.

But it is illegal to sell a gun to a minor or any adult not legally eligible to buy a gun.

They aren't required to ask those things. How is the seller going to know?

They asked the original buyer all those things, and he passed a background check....and then he sold the guns, knowingly to the criminals.....so how does anything you want stop this? Since everything you want was actually done...every single thing.....

And then they caught them without anything you wanted helping them...they used snitches and police work...

So again, nothing you say you want was relevant to this situation....not one thing.

 

[BULLDOG]

Yes, those were what is known as straw purchasers. Not the same as individual sellers who can legally sell their guns to anybody without any background check, paperwork, or records of any kind. They aren't even required to ask the purchaser's name.

And of course you have no idea what you are talking about with this issue.....the criminal buying the gun....can already be arrested for buying the gun....using current laws and current police work. Selling private property is not a crime.....you want to make it a crime. The anti gun leadership want to use universal background checks to get universal gun registration...they could give a rats ass about criminals getting guns from private sellers....all they want is to get universal background checks so that they can then demand universal gun registration...you can't have universal background checks without registering all guns...other wise you won't know who originally had the gun.

And criminals will still get guns even if you mandated a background check for private sales......these guys...they went to a licensed gun dealer....filled out the paperwork, went through the background check, the gun store kept records of the sale....

And the licensed gun dealer even asked them their names......and they even told the dealer their names....

And they took those legally purchased guns, having gone through all of your hoops....and sold the guns to felons......

Universal background checks will be passed by the same people because they can pass background checks....criminals will use those people to buy their guns and if they want a gun a private seller has, they will use friends and family and other straw buyers who can already pass background checks...making your post silly and pointless....

Who wants people to stop selling private property? I just want to keep people who can't legally buy guns from buying guns. Universal background checks will help with that.

How, EXACTLY, do you want that enforced? Be specific.

Lots of things without a 100% failsafe enforcement ability. Wiring and plumbing in a house are supposed to meet certain codes. There is no way to tell if a home owner did his own sub standard work and didn't bother requesting an inspection unless there is some problem that brings the substandard work to light at a later date. Even something as ubiquitous as having a license to drive a car can't be 100% failsafe. The cop doesn't know if you have a license to drive unless he has some reason to pull you over and check. Again, a hefty fine, but that is also after the fact. Honest sellers will do background checks, but some small number of sellers won't, and that small number won't be known unless something happens later to bring it to light. At that point, there are hefty fines, so most don't want to take a chance, and will do it properly. How are universal background checks any different? Catch a seller selling without a background check, give them a hefty fine, or some other appropriate punishment.

Nope....guns are private property.....we have a right to sell our own property in this country, comrade. Punish the actual criminal who buys the gun illegally, that is how you actually make a difference, lock them up for 30 years. As this thread shows......

They caught the actual illegal gun seller without the background check doing anything since he passed the background check....and still sold the gun to a criminal...

The first post of this thread shows your idea doesn't work...at all.....

The guy who sold the gun to the criminal...passed the current FEDERAL background check....he would pass any future private sale background check...so you whole point doesn't mean anything since it has been shown, here in this thread, that it is unnecessary to catch people intentionally selling guns to criminals.....

These guys were caught with current police techniques...they did not go through a background check....

Your whole premise is dumb.

Sure, punish the buyer who can't legally buy a gun, but give the seller a tool to determine who that is.

 

[BULLDOG]

Yes, those were what is known as straw purchasers. Not the same as individual sellers who can legally sell their guns to anybody without any background check, paperwork, or records of any kind. They aren't even required to ask the purchaser's name.

Private Gun Sale Laws by State - FindLaw

It is illegal in every state to sell a firearm to anyone legally prohibited from owning one.

And besides that people who want to illegally buy a gun will not seek out strangers for a private sale but will instead get guns from other criminal acquaintances or have a known friend or family member make a straw purchase

Yes, if the seller knows the purchaser is legally prohibited from owning a gun. The seller isn't even required to ask the purchasers name, and certainly isn't required to find out if he is selling to someone who legally can't have a gun. How is he supposed to know if the purchaser is prohibited from owning a gun?

The guy who bought the gun in this story....filled out federal paperwork...went through a federal mandated background check, and gave his name to the gun seller...and the seller found out that the guy buying the gun was legally able to do it....

That guy then took the gun and sold it to a guy he knew was a criminal, no paperwork, no background check....

And he was still caught without any of the things you say would stop this.......

This thread shows that the things you want are not needed to get the job done......

Yes. In this case, he knew the buyer was a criminal, and they proved he knew it. How are you going to prove that when the seller isn't even required know the buyer's name? He certainly can't know if the stranger buying his gun is a criminal.

 

[Jarlaxle]

Whooooooooooooooosssssssssssssshhhhhhhhhhhhhhh..................

I gues I have to spoon-feed you, you just aren't that bright: it is an ex post facto law, you blithering idiot!

How so?

Because, unless the seller is stupid or the gun was manufactured after the law was passed, you cannot prove WHEN it was sold!

 

[BULLDOG]

Who wants people to stop selling private property? I just want to keep people who can't legally buy guns from buying guns. Universal background checks will help with that.

Yeah right. Except when they don't do the check and sell the gun anyway.

That's what they are doing now. There is no requirement to do a check for person to person sales.

But it is illegal to sell a gun to a minor or any adult not legally eligible to buy a gun.

They aren't required to ask those things. How is the seller going to know?

They asked the original buyer all those things, and he passed a background check....and then he sold the guns, knowingly to the criminals.....so how does anything you want stop this? Since everything you want was actually done...every single thing.....

And then they caught them without anything you wanted helping them...they used snitches and police work...

So again, nothing you say you want was relevant to this situation....not one thing.

No.

 

[BULLDOG]

Whooooooooooooooosssssssssssssshhhhhhhhhhhhhhh..................

I gues I have to spoon-feed you, you just aren't that bright: it is an ex post facto law, you blithering idiot!

How so?

Because, unless the seller is stupid or the gun was manufactured after the law was passed, you cannot prove WHEN it was sold!

So how does the intelligence of the seller figure into this?

 

[Jarlaxle]

Whooooooooooooooosssssssssssssshhhhhhhhhhhhhhh..................

I gues I have to spoon-feed you, you just aren't that bright: it is an ex post facto law, you blithering idiot!

How so?

Because, unless the seller is stupid or the gun was manufactured after the law was passed, you cannot prove WHEN it was sold!

So how does the intelligence of the seller figure into this?

Are you deliberately being dense, or do I really have to explain this to you like you are six years old?

 

[BULLDOG]

Whooooooooooooooosssssssssssssshhhhhhhhhhhhhhh..................

I gues I have to spoon-feed you, you just aren't that bright: it is an ex post facto law, you blithering idiot!

How so?

Because, unless the seller is stupid or the gun was manufactured after the law was passed, you cannot prove WHEN it was sold!

So how does the intelligence of the seller figure into this?

Are you deliberately being dense, or do I really have to explain this to you like you are six years old?

You made the statement. You try to explain what it means. I'm not sure how the age of the weapon is an issue either. The law would be background checks for gun sales. Not background checks for guns made before or after any particular date.

 

[danielpalos]

Here you go.....we already have all the laws we need to catch people selling illegal guns....we don't need to register guns, we don't need to have universal background checks......we can already catch people who are selling guns for profit to criminals.......

Try to understand that, anti gunners.....




Five indicted in Michigan to Chicago straw purchasing scheme

Five men have been indicted in a straw purchasing scheme that brought at least nine handguns from Michigan to Chicago, the U.S. Attorney’s Office announced Tuesday.

The indictment alleges Michigan residents Cornelius Battle and Dalrick Drain bought guns from licensed dealers in Kalamazoo, Michigan, and then sold them to Chicago resident Nathaniel McElroy for higher prices. Battle and Drain allegedly falsified information on the required paperwork, saying they were buying the guns for themselves.

We have a Second Amendment. There should be no gun problems in any State.

 

[Jarlaxle]

Whooooooooooooooosssssssssssssshhhhhhhhhhhhhhh..................

I gues I have to spoon-feed you, you just aren't that bright: it is an ex post facto law, you blithering idiot!

How so?

Because, unless the seller is stupid or the gun was manufactured after the law was passed, you cannot prove WHEN it was sold!

So how does the intelligence of the seller figure into this?

Are you deliberately being dense, or do I really have to explain this to you like you are six years old?

You made the statement. You try to explain what it means. I'm not sure how the age of the weapon is an issue either. The law would be background checks for gun sales. Not background checks for guns made before or after any particular date.

Wow...you might REALLY BE this dense. If background checks are required after a certain date, in order to prove an illegal sale, the state would have to prove the sale happened AFTER that date. Unless the seller admits it or the gun was manufactured after that date, it would be quite difficult to prove.

 

[BULLDOG]

How so?

Because, unless the seller is stupid or the gun was manufactured after the law was passed, you cannot prove WHEN it was sold!

So how does the intelligence of the seller figure into this?

Are you deliberately being dense, or do I really have to explain this to you like you are six years old?

You made the statement. You try to explain what it means. I'm not sure how the age of the weapon is an issue either. The law would be background checks for gun sales. Not background checks for guns made before or after any particular date.

Wow...you might REALLY BE this dense. If background checks are required after a certain date, in order to prove an illegal sale, the state would have to prove the sale happened AFTER that date. Unless the seller admits it or the gun was manufactured after that date, it would be quite difficult to prove.

That is a silly reason to oppose universal background checks. You are grabbing at straws now.

 

[2aguy]

And of course you have no idea what you are talking about with this issue.....the criminal buying the gun....can already be arrested for buying the gun....using current laws and current police work. Selling private property is not a crime.....you want to make it a crime. The anti gun leadership want to use universal background checks to get universal gun registration...they could give a rats ass about criminals getting guns from private sellers....all they want is to get universal background checks so that they can then demand universal gun registration...you can't have universal background checks without registering all guns...other wise you won't know who originally had the gun.

And criminals will still get guns even if you mandated a background check for private sales......these guys...they went to a licensed gun dealer....filled out the paperwork, went through the background check, the gun store kept records of the sale....

And the licensed gun dealer even asked them their names......and they even told the dealer their names....

And they took those legally purchased guns, having gone through all of your hoops....and sold the guns to felons......

Universal background checks will be passed by the same people because they can pass background checks....criminals will use those people to buy their guns and if they want a gun a private seller has, they will use friends and family and other straw buyers who can already pass background checks...making your post silly and pointless....

Who wants people to stop selling private property? I just want to keep people who can't legally buy guns from buying guns. Universal background checks will help with that.

Yeah right. Except when they don't do the check and sell the gun anyway.

That's what they are doing now. There is no requirement to do a check for person to person sales.

But it is illegal to sell a gun to a minor or any adult not legally eligible to buy a gun.

They aren't required to ask those things. How is the seller going to know?

In this thread...the buyer was asked all of those things, filled out the paperwork you want, passed a background check, the current federal background check, and they even asked him his name...and he passed all of it.....and would pass all of it for a private sale....and then sold the guns to criminals...who did not go through a background check, fill out any paperwork and may or may not have been asked their names.....

You have no legitimate point on this topic...