Current law and police work catch guys selling illegal guns in Chicago, no new laws needed...

[Skull Pilot]

Yes, those were what is known as straw purchasers. Not the same as individual sellers who can legally sell their guns to anybody without any background check, paperwork, or records of any kind. They aren't even required to ask the purchaser's name.

Private Gun Sale Laws by State - FindLaw

It is illegal in every state to sell a firearm to anyone legally prohibited from owning one.

And besides that people who want to illegally buy a gun will not seek out strangers for a private sale but will instead get guns from other criminal acquaintances or have a known friend or family member make a straw purchase

Yes, if the seller knows the purchaser is legally prohibited from owning a gun. The seller isn't even required to ask the purchasers name, and certainly isn't required to find out if he is selling to someone who legally can't have a gun. How is he supposed to know if the purchaser is prohibited from owning a gun?

the vast majority of gun owners are law abiding and will not risk selling guns to a person they do not know. And as you have been repeatedly told criminals rarely seek out private gun sales from strangers

Bullshit. There is nothing about being a gun owner that makes him less likely to legally sell to anyone if he doesn't specifically know the buyer is a crook.

It's obviously true since most criminals don't get their guns via private sales from unknown private parties.

I don't know how many times you need to be told that criminals get their guns predominately from other criminals or from family or friends who make straw purchases for them

Your fixation on this one area that is not the real problem with criminals obtaining guns tells me that you really have no agenda other than to target law abiding gun owners

 

[Skull Pilot]

How, EXACTLY, do you want that enforced? Be specific.

Lots of things without a 100% failsafe enforcement ability. Wiring and plumbing in a house are supposed to meet certain codes. There is no way to tell if a home owner did his own sub standard work and didn't bother requesting an inspection unless there is some problem that brings the substandard work to light at a later date. Even something as ubiquitous as having a license to drive a car can't be 100% failsafe. The cop doesn't know if you have a license to drive unless he has some reason to pull you over and check. Again, a hefty fine, but that is also after the fact. Honest sellers will do background checks, but some small number of sellers won't, and that small number won't be known unless something happens later to bring it to light. At that point, there are hefty fines, so most don't want to take a chance, and will do it properly. How are universal background checks any different? Catch a seller selling without a background check, give them a hefty fine, or some other appropriate punishment.

Nope....guns are private property.....we have a right to sell our own property in this country, comrade. Punish the actual criminal who buys the gun illegally, that is how you actually make a difference, lock them up for 30 years. As this thread shows......

They caught the actual illegal gun seller without the background check doing anything since he passed the background check....and still sold the gun to a criminal...

The first post of this thread shows your idea doesn't work...at all.....

The guy who sold the gun to the criminal...passed the current FEDERAL background check....he would pass any future private sale background check...so you whole point doesn't mean anything since it has been shown, here in this thread, that it is unnecessary to catch people intentionally selling guns to criminals.....

These guys were caught with current police techniques...they did not go through a background check....

Your whole premise is dumb.

Sure, punish the buyer who can't legally buy a gun, but give the seller a tool to determine who that is.

Anyone can broker a gun sale through an FFL dealer

IMO any private seller who doesn't use an FFL as an intermediary is an idiot

I agree, so why not require it?

Because private sales are not the reason criminals get guns.

 

[Skull Pilot]

Here you go.....we already have all the laws we need to catch people selling illegal guns....we don't need to register guns, we don't need to have universal background checks......we can already catch people who are selling guns for profit to criminals.......

Try to understand that, anti gunners.....




Five indicted in Michigan to Chicago straw purchasing scheme

Five men have been indicted in a straw purchasing scheme that brought at least nine handguns from Michigan to Chicago, the U.S. Attorney’s Office announced Tuesday.

The indictment alleges Michigan residents Cornelius Battle and Dalrick Drain bought guns from licensed dealers in Kalamazoo, Michigan, and then sold them to Chicago resident Nathaniel McElroy for higher prices. Battle and Drain allegedly falsified information on the required paperwork, saying they were buying the guns for themselves.

So instead of being convicted of a State crime, they'll be convicted of federal crimes which carry much longer sentences.

Then libtards will let them go.

This libtard believes that if you use any weapon to commit a crime you should go to jail for life. If you injure someone while committing a crime you should be killed.

In regard to guns; if you are a gun owner and don't secure your gun which is stolen or used by somebody other than you, and is used in a crime or death of another, you should suffer the wrath.

Sure, just as soon as you agree that if someone steals your car and kills someone with it, you should be responsible.

If you leave your keys in your car.....yes.

No.

The person who took your car is responsible for what happens since he is the one committing the crime.

Tell me do you think a woman who wears short skirts is responsible for getting raped?

 

[Skull Pilot]

And of course you have no idea what you are talking about with this issue.....the criminal buying the gun....can already be arrested for buying the gun....using current laws and current police work. Selling private property is not a crime.....you want to make it a crime. The anti gun leadership want to use universal background checks to get universal gun registration...they could give a rats ass about criminals getting guns from private sellers....all they want is to get universal background checks so that they can then demand universal gun registration...you can't have universal background checks without registering all guns...other wise you won't know who originally had the gun.

And criminals will still get guns even if you mandated a background check for private sales......these guys...they went to a licensed gun dealer....filled out the paperwork, went through the background check, the gun store kept records of the sale....

And the licensed gun dealer even asked them their names......and they even told the dealer their names....

And they took those legally purchased guns, having gone through all of your hoops....and sold the guns to felons......

Universal background checks will be passed by the same people because they can pass background checks....criminals will use those people to buy their guns and if they want a gun a private seller has, they will use friends and family and other straw buyers who can already pass background checks...making your post silly and pointless....

Who wants people to stop selling private property? I just want to keep people who can't legally buy guns from buying guns. Universal background checks will help with that.

How, EXACTLY, do you want that enforced? Be specific.

Lots of things without a 100% failsafe enforcement ability. Wiring and plumbing in a house are supposed to meet certain codes. There is no way to tell if a home owner did his own sub standard work and didn't bother requesting an inspection unless there is some problem that brings the substandard work to light at a later date. Even something as ubiquitous as having a license to drive a car can't be 100% failsafe. The cop doesn't know if you have a license to drive unless he has some reason to pull you over and check. Again, a hefty fine, but that is also after the fact. Honest sellers will do background checks, but some small number of sellers won't, and that small number won't be known unless something happens later to bring it to light. At that point, there are hefty fines, so most don't want to take a chance, and will do it properly. How are universal background checks any different? Catch a seller selling without a background check, give them a hefty fine, or some other appropriate punishment.

Nope....guns are private property.....we have a right to sell our own property in this country, comrade. Punish the actual criminal who buys the gun illegally, that is how you actually make a difference, lock them up for 30 years. As this thread shows......

They caught the actual illegal gun seller without the background check doing anything since he passed the background check....and still sold the gun to a criminal...

The first post of this thread shows your idea doesn't work...at all.....

The guy who sold the gun to the criminal...passed the current FEDERAL background check....he would pass any future private sale background check...so you whole point doesn't mean anything since it has been shown, here in this thread, that it is unnecessary to catch people intentionally selling guns to criminals.....

These guys were caught with current police techniques...they did not go through a background check....

Your whole premise is dumb.

Cars are also, but you have paperwork to complete the sale.

Not really. If you buy a car for cash all you get is a title from the seller. The sale is not reported to anyone. You do not have to register that car

 

[Skull Pilot]

Then libtards will let them go.

This libtard believes that if you use any weapon to commit a crime you should go to jail for life. If you injure someone while committing a crime you should be killed.

In regard to guns; if you are a gun owner and don't secure your gun which is stolen or used by somebody other than you, and is used in a crime or death of another, you should suffer the wrath.

Sure, just as soon as you agree that if someone steals your car and kills someone with it, you should be responsible.

If you leave your keys in your car.....yes.

Bullshit! if I leave my keys in the car and it is stolen it's the thieves fault! I've never seen so many criminal loving idiots in my life!

Why would you leave your keys in your car?

I have forgotten my keys were left in my car. You never have?

 

[BULLDOG]

Yes, those were what is known as straw purchasers. Not the same as individual sellers who can legally sell their guns to anybody without any background check, paperwork, or records of any kind. They aren't even required to ask the purchaser's name.

Private Gun Sale Laws by State - FindLaw

It is illegal in every state to sell a firearm to anyone legally prohibited from owning one.

And besides that people who want to illegally buy a gun will not seek out strangers for a private sale but will instead get guns from other criminal acquaintances or have a known friend or family member make a straw purchase

Yes, if the seller knows the purchaser is legally prohibited from owning a gun. The seller isn't even required to ask the purchasers name, and certainly isn't required to find out if he is selling to someone who legally can't have a gun. How is he supposed to know if the purchaser is prohibited from owning a gun?

the vast majority of gun owners are law abiding and will not risk selling guns to a person they do not know. And as you have been repeatedly told criminals rarely seek out private gun sales from strangers

Bullshit. There is nothing about being a gun owner that makes him less likely to legally sell to anyone if he doesn't specifically know the buyer is a crook.

It's obviously true since most criminals don't get their guns via private sales from unknown private parties.

I don't know how many times you need to be told that criminals get their guns predominately from other criminals or from family or friends who make straw purchases for them

Your fixation on this one area that is not the real problem with criminals obtaining guns tells me that you really have no agenda other than to target law abiding gun owners

Getting them from family and friends is still considered private sale. I know lots of family members wouldn't do it if they were risking being busted themselves.

 

[Skull Pilot]

Private Gun Sale Laws by State - FindLaw

It is illegal in every state to sell a firearm to anyone legally prohibited from owning one.

And besides that people who want to illegally buy a gun will not seek out strangers for a private sale but will instead get guns from other criminal acquaintances or have a known friend or family member make a straw purchase

Yes, if the seller knows the purchaser is legally prohibited from owning a gun. The seller isn't even required to ask the purchasers name, and certainly isn't required to find out if he is selling to someone who legally can't have a gun. How is he supposed to know if the purchaser is prohibited from owning a gun?

the vast majority of gun owners are law abiding and will not risk selling guns to a person they do not know. And as you have been repeatedly told criminals rarely seek out private gun sales from strangers

Bullshit. There is nothing about being a gun owner that makes him less likely to legally sell to anyone if he doesn't specifically know the buyer is a crook.

It's obviously true since most criminals don't get their guns via private sales from unknown private parties.

I don't know how many times you need to be told that criminals get their guns predominately from other criminals or from family or friends who make straw purchases for them

Your fixation on this one area that is not the real problem with criminals obtaining guns tells me that you really have no agenda other than to target law abiding gun owners

Getting them from family and friends is still considered private sale. I know lots of family members wouldn't do it if they were risking being busted themselves.

No that would be considered a straw purchase where a family member or friend was used as a proxy. And you seem to forget that the friend of a criminal getting a gun is most likely a criminal himself and did not get that gun legally. And a friend or family member of a criminal isn't likely to run a background check is he?

The fact is private sales of guns account for a minuscule proportion of guns that wind up in the hands of criminals.

 

[BULLDOG]

Yes, if the seller knows the purchaser is legally prohibited from owning a gun. The seller isn't even required to ask the purchasers name, and certainly isn't required to find out if he is selling to someone who legally can't have a gun. How is he supposed to know if the purchaser is prohibited from owning a gun?

the vast majority of gun owners are law abiding and will not risk selling guns to a person they do not know. And as you have been repeatedly told criminals rarely seek out private gun sales from strangers

Bullshit. There is nothing about being a gun owner that makes him less likely to legally sell to anyone if he doesn't specifically know the buyer is a crook.

It's obviously true since most criminals don't get their guns via private sales from unknown private parties.

I don't know how many times you need to be told that criminals get their guns predominately from other criminals or from family or friends who make straw purchases for them

Your fixation on this one area that is not the real problem with criminals obtaining guns tells me that you really have no agenda other than to target law abiding gun owners

Getting them from family and friends is still considered private sale. I know lots of family members wouldn't do it if they were risking being busted themselves.

No that would be considered a straw purchase where a family member or friend was used as a proxy. And you seem to forget that the friend of a criminal getting a gun is most likely a criminal himself and did not get that gun legally. And a friend or family member of a criminal isn't likely to run a background check is he?

The fact is private sales of guns account for a minuscule proportion of guns that wind up in the hands of criminals.

The main reason given that background checks weren't required for individual sales was so family and friends could transfer guns to each other without any requirements.

 

[Skull Pilot]

the vast majority of gun owners are law abiding and will not risk selling guns to a person they do not know. And as you have been repeatedly told criminals rarely seek out private gun sales from strangers

Bullshit. There is nothing about being a gun owner that makes him less likely to legally sell to anyone if he doesn't specifically know the buyer is a crook.

It's obviously true since most criminals don't get their guns via private sales from unknown private parties.

I don't know how many times you need to be told that criminals get their guns predominately from other criminals or from family or friends who make straw purchases for them

Your fixation on this one area that is not the real problem with criminals obtaining guns tells me that you really have no agenda other than to target law abiding gun owners

Getting them from family and friends is still considered private sale. I know lots of family members wouldn't do it if they were risking being busted themselves.

No that would be considered a straw purchase where a family member or friend was used as a proxy. And you seem to forget that the friend of a criminal getting a gun is most likely a criminal himself and did not get that gun legally. And a friend or family member of a criminal isn't likely to run a background check is he?

The fact is private sales of guns account for a minuscule proportion of guns that wind up in the hands of criminals.

The main reason given that background checks weren't required for individual sales was so family and friends could transfer guns to each other without any requirements.

And gifts to family members and inheritance are the still the most common private transfer of guns.

Criminals aren't buy their guns from strangers via private sales

 

[2aguy]

Why? The gun is stolen. You didn't use the gun, the gun was in your home....someone broke in, took the gun and used it, how is that in any way your fault?

What part of 'secure your gun' don't you understand? This is why there should be a 'idiot clause' in gun sales........

What part of "stolen" don't you get. If you have it in your house, it is secured...if someone breaks in and takes it, you are the victim...what part of that equation don't you get? Oh...that's right, you are a left winger.....even the most simple concept is beyond you...I apologize for trying to discuss the issue with you...

In all of my properties and cars I have biometric safes. That is secured. Idiot.

You poor, deluded fool. News flash: it is not at all difficult to get into most gun safes! Grab the whole thing, throw it in a truck, haul it home, and simply cut it open at my leisure. Most gun safes are more secure than a high-end file cabinet...but not by much. A truly SECURE safe costs as much as a new car.

You believe that a residential burglar is as sophisticated as that and you call me 'deluded?'

How many guns that were secured in a safe were stolen last year in the US?

How many guns that were secured in a safe were used by kids that shot themselves or others last year in the US?

Quit making excuses for the brain dead gun owners and start taking responsibility.

They use stolen vehicles, including construction vehicles to break into heavily secured gun stores......

How about, instead of punishing the victims of the crime, gun owners who have their guns stolen, you actually punish the criminal who stole the fucking gun.....give them 30 years...how about that, genius?

 

[2aguy]

What part of "stolen" don't you get. If you have it in your house, it is secured...if someone breaks in and takes it, you are the victim...what part of that equation don't you get? Oh...that's right, you are a left winger.....even the most simple concept is beyond you...I apologize for trying to discuss the issue with you...

In all of my properties and cars I have biometric safes. That is secured. Idiot.

And if they want our guns they will either take your safes or break into them...so....you will then be responsible...right? moron

How do you take a safe that is secured. Break into a biometric safe......good luck! In either case you've secured the weapon. (idiot clause)

You do know that most safes available to the average person can be drilled into don't you?

You think that just because it has a fingerprint scanner on it that it cant be forced open?

A residential burglar is going to take the time and make the noise to do such a thing? Really?

This is just one example...

 

[2aguy]

the vast majority of gun owners are law abiding and will not risk selling guns to a person they do not know. And as you have been repeatedly told criminals rarely seek out private gun sales from strangers

Bullshit. There is nothing about being a gun owner that makes him less likely to legally sell to anyone if he doesn't specifically know the buyer is a crook.

It's obviously true since most criminals don't get their guns via private sales from unknown private parties.

I don't know how many times you need to be told that criminals get their guns predominately from other criminals or from family or friends who make straw purchases for them

Your fixation on this one area that is not the real problem with criminals obtaining guns tells me that you really have no agenda other than to target law abiding gun owners

Getting them from family and friends is still considered private sale. I know lots of family members wouldn't do it if they were risking being busted themselves.

No that would be considered a straw purchase where a family member or friend was used as a proxy. And you seem to forget that the friend of a criminal getting a gun is most likely a criminal himself and did not get that gun legally. And a friend or family member of a criminal isn't likely to run a background check is he?

The fact is private sales of guns account for a minuscule proportion of guns that wind up in the hands of criminals.

The main reason given that background checks weren't required for individual sales was so family and friends could transfer guns to each other without any requirements.

No, the main reason was that guns are private property, and we live in a free country.

 

[2aguy]

Yes, those were what is known as straw purchasers. Not the same as individual sellers who can legally sell their guns to anybody without any background check, paperwork, or records of any kind. They aren't even required to ask the purchaser's name.

And of course you have no idea what you are talking about with this issue.....the criminal buying the gun....can already be arrested for buying the gun....using current laws and current police work. Selling private property is not a crime.....you want to make it a crime. The anti gun leadership want to use universal background checks to get universal gun registration...they could give a rats ass about criminals getting guns from private sellers....all they want is to get universal background checks so that they can then demand universal gun registration...you can't have universal background checks without registering all guns...other wise you won't know who originally had the gun.

And criminals will still get guns even if you mandated a background check for private sales......these guys...they went to a licensed gun dealer....filled out the paperwork, went through the background check, the gun store kept records of the sale....

And the licensed gun dealer even asked them their names......and they even told the dealer their names....

And they took those legally purchased guns, having gone through all of your hoops....and sold the guns to felons......

Universal background checks will be passed by the same people because they can pass background checks....criminals will use those people to buy their guns and if they want a gun a private seller has, they will use friends and family and other straw buyers who can already pass background checks...making your post silly and pointless....

Who wants people to stop selling private property? I just want to keep people who can't legally buy guns from buying guns. Universal background checks will help with that.

Ok. So how are you going to entice the criminals to get a background check? Not sure how that part of your plan works, exactly.

Thousands of direct sellers. Most would obey the law and do a background check on the buyer, or not sell the gun. The responsibility for the universal check falls on the seller who currently doesn't even have to know the buyer's name.

and again...as this thread shows from the very first post...

--the buyer went through a current, federally mandated background check.

--the buyer filled out paper work to buy the gun and to have the background check done.

--the buyer gave his full name, address and other information to the gun seller.

All of this would also be done if there was a mandated background check for private sales....

And the seller would still have gone and sold the guns to criminals.

You have no point. Everything you want was done....at the federal level.

And since nothing you want stopped the illegal gun sale......and wouldn't stop a private sale, what is the actual point to universal background checks?

The only reason anti gun leadership is pushing universal background checks is to get universal gun registration.....otherwise universal background checks will be claimed to not work without the registration. Then, years later, as they did in Germany, Britain and Australia, they will use the gun registration information to ban and confiscate whatever guns they feel they can get away with banning and confiscating.

 

[2aguy]

Yes, those were what is known as straw purchasers. Not the same as individual sellers who can legally sell their guns to anybody without any background check, paperwork, or records of any kind. They aren't even required to ask the purchaser's name.

Private Gun Sale Laws by State - FindLaw

It is illegal in every state to sell a firearm to anyone legally prohibited from owning one.

And besides that people who want to illegally buy a gun will not seek out strangers for a private sale but will instead get guns from other criminal acquaintances or have a known friend or family member make a straw purchase

Yes, if the seller knows the purchaser is legally prohibited from owning a gun. The seller isn't even required to ask the purchasers name, and certainly isn't required to find out if he is selling to someone who legally can't have a gun. How is he supposed to know if the purchaser is prohibited from owning a gun?

the vast majority of gun owners are law abiding and will not risk selling guns to a person they do not know. And as you have been repeatedly told criminals rarely seek out private gun sales from strangers

Bullshit. There is nothing about being a gun owner that makes him less likely to legally sell to anyone if he doesn't specifically know the buyer is a crook.

It's obviously true since most criminals don't get their guns via private sales from unknown private parties.

I don't know how many times you need to be told that criminals get their guns predominately from other criminals or from family or friends who make straw purchases for them

Your fixation on this one area that is not the real problem with criminals obtaining guns tells me that you really have no agenda other than to target law abiding gun owners

They want universal gun registration....that is the only reason they are pushing for universal background checks. Registration gives them the power to confiscate and ban guns as soon as they can appoint judges and pass laws.

 

[2aguy]

Private Gun Sale Laws by State - FindLaw

It is illegal in every state to sell a firearm to anyone legally prohibited from owning one.

And besides that people who want to illegally buy a gun will not seek out strangers for a private sale but will instead get guns from other criminal acquaintances or have a known friend or family member make a straw purchase

Yes, if the seller knows the purchaser is legally prohibited from owning a gun. The seller isn't even required to ask the purchasers name, and certainly isn't required to find out if he is selling to someone who legally can't have a gun. How is he supposed to know if the purchaser is prohibited from owning a gun?

the vast majority of gun owners are law abiding and will not risk selling guns to a person they do not know. And as you have been repeatedly told criminals rarely seek out private gun sales from strangers

Bullshit. There is nothing about being a gun owner that makes him less likely to legally sell to anyone if he doesn't specifically know the buyer is a crook.

It's obviously true since most criminals don't get their guns via private sales from unknown private parties.

I don't know how many times you need to be told that criminals get their guns predominately from other criminals or from family or friends who make straw purchases for them

Your fixation on this one area that is not the real problem with criminals obtaining guns tells me that you really have no agenda other than to target law abiding gun owners

Getting them from family and friends is still considered private sale. I know lots of family members wouldn't do it if they were risking being busted themselves.

which is why you want universal background checks.....you want to force families to have to have a background check, and pay the fee, to give a gun to another family member.....but more importantly, you want to instill the fear of jail so that they just decide not to give the gun to family members.....

 

[2aguy]

And this is how criminals get guns....

 

[OnePercenter]

Factually incorrect, as usual.

What is factually incorrect?

Your statement in post 101. Stop pretending to be a lawyer...you're not.

Leaving your keys in your car isn't a stupid, irresponsible act? Shouldn't one be responsible for that act?

 

[Skull Pilot]

Factually incorrect, as usual.

What is factually incorrect?

Your statement in post 101. Stop pretending to be a lawyer...you're not.

Leaving your keys in your car isn't a stupid, irresponsible act? Shouldn't one be responsible for that act?

A car is private property whether the keys are in it or not.

The only person responsible for the crime of stealing the car and all subsequent actions after stealing a car is the piece of shit who stole it.

 

[2aguy]

Factually incorrect, as usual.

What is factually incorrect?

Your statement in post 101. Stop pretending to be a lawyer...you're not.

Leaving your keys in your car isn't a stupid, irresponsible act? Shouldn't one be responsible for that act?

How about we focus on the criminal who steals the car? Why is that such a tough concept for you left wingers?

 

[OnePercenter]

What part of 'secure your gun' don't you understand? This is why there should be a 'idiot clause' in gun sales........

What part of "stolen" don't you get. If you have it in your house, it is secured...if someone breaks in and takes it, you are the victim...what part of that equation don't you get? Oh...that's right, you are a left winger.....even the most simple concept is beyond you...I apologize for trying to discuss the issue with you...

In all of my properties and cars I have biometric safes. That is secured. Idiot.

You poor, deluded fool. News flash: it is not at all difficult to get into most gun safes! Grab the whole thing, throw it in a truck, haul it home, and simply cut it open at my leisure. Most gun safes are more secure than a high-end file cabinet...but not by much. A truly SECURE safe costs as much as a new car.

You believe that a residential burglar is as sophisticated as that and you call me 'deluded?'

How many guns that were secured in a safe were stolen last year in the US?

How many guns that were secured in a safe were used by kids that shot themselves or others last year in the US?

Quit making excuses for the brain dead gun owners and start taking responsibility.

They use stolen vehicles, including construction vehicles to break into heavily secured gun stores......

How about, instead of punishing the victims of the crime, gun owners who have their guns stolen, you actually punish the criminal who stole the fucking gun.....give them 30 years...how about that, genius?

The issue I bought is UNSECURED WEAPONS. If you use stolen construction vehicles wouldn't the weapons be secured and the use of the stolen construction vehicles be used to override the securement?