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In the grand scheme of things, does it matter?
In the grand scheme of things, does it matter?
Religion is born of the fear that results from the comprehension of spiritual possibilities, including the very real possibility that the one life known of is the only one a Monkey gets.
The 'Great Unknown' includes the spiritual possibilities that death is a reset button, AND death as the true end.
Unknown. Unknown. Unknown.
As long as what awaits Monkeys beyond the door of death remains unknown, so will human spirituality and religion remain wildly diverse conglomerations of questions and theories.
Is that fuzzy feeling that a Monkey gets proof that a spiritual world exists? It sure as hell does for the Monkey who feels the connection! And the rest of us owe that speculation a modicum of respect, if for no other reason than to be able to demand a bit of respect for our own silly speculations at what awaits a Monkey when a meeting with Death is on the old appointment calendar.
That's right... I said ALL religion is naught but theories - step 1 in banding all our little tribes of Monkeys into a community capable of reaching for the stars.
The definitive word is "Reaching".
All together now, reach for the sun.
We often hear the God-haters chortle... you don't have definitive proof that god exists, therefore, it must be a fallacy. I have often been puzzled by this argument, because it seems to indicate a complete lack of basic comprehension and logic. Many people certainly DO have definitive proof that god exists, that's why they believe in god. You may not be willing to accept their proof, because it is spiritual and not physical, but that's your problem.
You see, we can't expect a spiritual entity to exist in the physical sense, then it would be a physical entity. By it's very nature, God doesn't have to physically exist to exist as a spirit or energy. So the demands for physical proof of a spiritual entity are devoid of logic to begin with. Does a thought exist? You can't see it, there is no physical proof of it's existence, but does it not still exist? How about an inspiration? How about a dream? How about love?
As you can see, the "existence" of something can be physical or nonphysical, or even spiritual. So in order to evaluate the existence of something spiritual, we have to use spiritual evidence, since physical evidence doesn't logically apply. We don't demand spiritual evidence to prove the physical.... if you demonstrate how rain is caused with physical science, and someone says...well God tells me that rain is His tears... what would you say to that? It's backward, mouth-breathing and knuckle-dragging? Right? Well, that is someone applying spiritual evidence to the physical, and rejecting physical evidence. Yes, it's kind of stupid, isn't it? Just as stupid as demanding physical evidence to support a spiritual entity, and rejecting spiritual evidence.
Now to the "definitive proof" part. Since we have now determined that Spiritual evidence is what is needed to prove God's existence, we take you back 70,000 years or so, to the ancient people of Lake Mungo, one of the oldest human civilizations ever discovered. There, they found evidence of ritual burial using red ochre in ceremony. This is important because it signifies presence of spirituality. We can trace this human connection with spirituality all through mankind's history to present day religions. Mankind has always been spiritually connected to something greater than self. Since our very origins.
Perhaps this is where we can interject some relative physical science, from none other than the father of evolution, Mr. Charles Darwin. In his book, Origin of the Species, Darwin points out that behavioral traits which are inherent in a species, exist for some fundamental reason pertaining to the advancement of the species, otherwise they are discarded over time through natural selection. No species of animal we have ever studied, just does something inherently, with no fundamental reason. Salmon swim upstream for a reason. Dogs wag their tails for a reason. We may not understand the reason, but Darwin tells us, there has to be one.
So there you have it, in just a few short paragraphs. Definitive proof that God exists!
Now, when I talked to God I knew He'd understand
He said, "Stick by my side and I'll be your guiding hand
Don't ask me what I think of you
I might not give the answer that you want me to"
Hey, hardhead... you need to provide some evidence of this claim, because it DEFIES nature. No other living thing is so worried about death that it creates a security blanket. Nothing! There has never been such an example in all of history, regarding any form of life. What you are presuming, has NO BASIS!
Settle down, sweetie. I'm here to help you learn. If you need evidence that religions use fear as a motivational tool, threats of eternal proportions abound in your bibles.
It certainly is about religion and not some obtuse, undefined term (“spiritualty”And I am here to help you learn, sweetie. This isn't about religion, it's about the attribute of human spirituality. You maintain it is born out of fear, and I argue that you have not made that case. Furthermore, it defies nature to make such a claim. These "fears" humans have, which no other living thing has, are the byproducts of our spiritual connection, which no other living things have. Perhaps you can argue that our spiritual connection manifested into 'religions of fear', I don't have a problem with that argument, but that's not what you claimed.
, you prefer to use. It is actually quite a simple matter to demonstrate that religions have been human constructs. Many gods have been invented to explain natural processes that were not understand. As we have seen, most of these gods (of thunder, lightning, fire, etc.), have been replaced by knowledge.Secondly, humans are endowed with a sentient knowledge of "self", "mortality" and "community" as a result of higher brain function. That is why humans have a 70,000 year record of building religions and gods, and why some have exploited those fears and superstitions.
Nonsense. Your claim that there is no difference between human brains and those of primates is indefesible. Your claim is only sufficient for those who have already decided there must be this “spirituality” thing. You believe it's okay to assume as decided, the issue of some sort of “spiritual connection” which you can’t even define.This is simply not supported by nature. There is simply nothing about our brain and how it functions, that is physically different from other upper primates. Yet we see absolutely no signs of other species even being interested in spirituality, even the ones who share 98% of our DNA, and whose brain function is exactly the same as our own. Our higher level of success and achievement, with relatively the same brain as a chimpanzee, is made possible because of our spiritual connection, which the chimp doesn't possess.
As to threats and warnings in “holy texts”, of course they’re there. Their purpose is to control those gullible enough to believe a supernatural entity will cause you burn in hell for not kowtowing to the men who wrote the book. All three Abrahamic religions use a form of mind control, (fear) to gain and keep their members. Christianity uses heaven and hell, the concept of sin, a corrupted nature no one can escape, the requirement of a savior to ameliorate the gap between gods and men.
Reincarnation is the device used by Buddhism and Hinduism, wherein the "punishment" is a repeatable life that would stress the soul in ways it stressed others in its previous life. Every religion cloaks itself under dynamics which affects commercial life (tithing for instance), educational (teaching the doctrine of the religion is inerrant even in the face of overwhelming proof contrary to the religious doctrine), and psychological (gods with a vested interest in the behaviors of men, who can see their sins, who are able to mete out justice -- all of these are severe and inescapable mental leveraging that dictate human behavior-- i.e., psychologies).
Live in wrenching fear of gods and demons if you wish. Or – just revise your religion and it’s gods to make them whatever you would like them to be. Most people do precisely thst.
And not surprisingly, aside from your “because I say so”, comment, we have not a single shred of evidence to confirm your claims.Again, you rip into a long-winded rant about organized religions, which are the byproduct of human spirituality. We can get into a long debate over why religion relies on fear to establish an organization around spiritual belief, but this doesn't refute the fact that humans spiritually connect. In fact, it merely reinforces the point. I imagine, it wasn't long after man discovered his ability to connect spiritually, he began working on a way to instill this attribute in other men. This resulted in a method of spiritual practice or ritual, and advanced to include dogma and anecdotes to motivate a healthy spiritual compliance...thus, religions were born.
Get your head out of your butt and try to understand, religion followed human spirituality! The "fears of death" and all the other fears man has, followed human spirituality! The advancement of our species and what makes us vastly different from any other living thing, is a result of our ability to spiritually connect.
In the grand scheme of things, does it matter?
In the grand scheme of things, does it matter if some people believe Mt. Rushmore is the result of nature instead of the product of design? Does it matter that we have strong and compelling evidence it was carved by men, and not some bizarre phenomenon found nowhere else in nature?
Methinks thou dost protest too much.LDS charities also provide more humanitarian aid to more people worldwide, than ANY OTHER ORGANIZATION ON THE PLANET, INCLUDING THE RED CROSS!
...So you can now have a big tall glass of STFU!
I wonder if "Boss" [another clue?] is a former, or presently practising, Mormon?
That might explain his absurd over-confidence that he has proven the contention of his opening posting.
I mean, they actually claim that the Mayas were Post-Exilic Jews!!
.
Yes, I fully understand you all want me to be some religious nutcase, so you can then turn this topic into a theocratic debate. I'm not a Mormon, I do not belong to any organized religion, and I think most organized religions misinterpret god. Religious people call me a dyed-in-the-wool Atheist.
What you mistakenly perceive as "protest" is merely me, responding to idiots who want to take pot shots at religion. You've got to stop reading stuff into what I say, and believing I have some hidden religious agenda. I have no reason to hide anything here.
Look... the basic logic here, doesn't even make any sense. I have repeatedly stated that I am not a Christian and don't believe in the Bible. Now... IF I am really a secret Christian, lying to you about that, I have condemned myself to hell for eternity, according to the Bible. Why in the hell would I condemn myself to hell for all of eternity, just to fool an idiot on a message board? Makes no sense at all, does it?
We often hear the God-haters chortle... you don't have definitive proof that god exists, therefore, it must be a fallacy. I have often been puzzled by this argument, because it seems to indicate a complete lack of basic comprehension and logic. Many people certainly DO have definitive proof that god exists, that's why they believe in god. You may not be willing to accept their proof, because it is spiritual and not physical, but that's your problem.
You see, we can't expect a spiritual entity to exist in the physical sense, then it would be a physical entity. By it's very nature, God doesn't have to physically exist to exist as a spirit or energy. So the demands for physical proof of a spiritual entity are devoid of logic to begin with. Does a thought exist? You can't see it, there is no physical proof of it's existence, but does it not still exist? How about an inspiration? How about a dream? How about love?
As you can see, the "existence" of something can be physical or nonphysical, or even spiritual. So in order to evaluate the existence of something spiritual, we have to use spiritual evidence, since physical evidence doesn't logically apply. We don't demand spiritual evidence to prove the physical.... if you demonstrate how rain is caused with physical science, and someone says...well God tells me that rain is His tears... what would you say to that? It's backward, mouth-breathing and knuckle-dragging? Right? Well, that is someone applying spiritual evidence to the physical, and rejecting physical evidence. Yes, it's kind of stupid, isn't it? Just as stupid as demanding physical evidence to support a spiritual entity, and rejecting spiritual evidence.
Now to the "definitive proof" part. Since we have now determined that Spiritual evidence is what is needed to prove God's existence, we take you back 70,000 years or so, to the ancient people of Lake Mungo, one of the oldest human civilizations ever discovered. There, they found evidence of ritual burial using red ochre in ceremony. This is important because it signifies presence of spirituality. We can trace this human connection with spirituality all through mankind's history to present day religions. Mankind has always been spiritually connected to something greater than self. Since our very origins.
Perhaps this is where we can interject some relative physical science, from none other than the father of evolution, Mr. Charles Darwin. In his book, Origin of the Species, Darwin points out that behavioral traits which are inherent in a species, exist for some fundamental reason pertaining to the advancement of the species, otherwise they are discarded over time through natural selection. No species of animal we have ever studied, just does something inherently, with no fundamental reason. Salmon swim upstream for a reason. Dogs wag their tails for a reason. We may not understand the reason, but Darwin tells us, there has to be one.
So there you have it, in just a few short paragraphs. Definitive proof that God exists!
I've seen GOD, spoken with GOD, and GOD spoke to me. GOD was very clear about being a manifestation of the mind, the result of neuro-chemical processes. There is the proof your looking for. Definitive proof that GOD only exists in your head.
Yes, I fully understand you all want me to be some religious nutcase, so you can then turn this topic into a theocratic debate. I'm not a Mormon, I do not belong to any organized religion, and I think most organized religions misinterpret god. Religious people call me a dyed-in-the-wool Atheist.
What you mistakenly perceive as "protest" is merely me, responding to idiots who want to take pot shots at religion. You've got to stop reading stuff into what I say, and believing I have some hidden religious agenda. I have no reason to hide anything here.
Look... the basic logic here, doesn't even make any sense. I have repeatedly stated that I am not a Christian and don't believe in the Bible. Now... IF I am really a secret Christian, lying to you about that, I have condemned myself to hell for eternity, according to the Bible. Why in the hell would I condemn myself to hell for all of eternity, just to fool an idiot on a message board? Makes no sense at all, does it?
You do make sense.
To possibilities... among them spiritual.
imo the crutch is giving everything over to god ..in other words taking responsibility.
you're 100%percent correct that everybody has the right to be wrong.
after all, we're still just Monkeys
lol, you libtards just cant get your facts straight.
We are not monkeys, we are apes without tales.
But some are also monkeys, like most libtards I have met are definitely monkeys.
Apes without 'tales'?
But...
But...But... Tellin' tales is what Monkeys do!
Ancient tales, tall tales, post-modern tales... tales of love, tales of wonder. Don't sell yourself short, Monkey.
And don't be rude. You know damn well that it's 'Monkey', not 'monkey'.
[ame=http://youtu.be/5zNdMc6wGtU]Talking Heads - Heaven - YouTube[/ame]And the beat goes on...
Del Amitri - Nothing Ever Happens (with lyrics) - YouTube
It certainly is about religion and not some obtuse, undefined term (spiritualty), you prefer to use.
It is actually quite a simple matter to demonstrate that religions have been human constructs. Many gods have been invented to explain natural processes that were not understand. As we have seen, most of these gods (of thunder, lightning, fire, etc.), have been replaced by knowledge.
This is why your Byproducts claim is so clearly self-refuting. There is one factual difference that separates humans from other animals in addition to our DNA and that is sentience.
We can dismiss your underlying demand that humanity is subservient to some thing you call spirituality which, of course, we can actually attribute to your version of a supernatural force of divinity because that approach assumes the point you are trying to prove is true. And it's not been shown to be true.
Remove humans from the equation, and you lose the more complex version of sentience (self awareness, a sense of mortality and human emotions), that we experience. Remove humans from the equation and all fully self-aware sentience concepts go away as far as we can possibly tell-- unless there are other sentient beings out there we do not know of.
Nonsense. Your claim that there is no difference between human brains and those of primates is indefesible. Your claim is only sufficient for those who have already decided there must be this spirituality thing. You believe it's okay to assume as decided, the issue of some sort of spiritual connection which you cant even define.
I have no explanation for "spirits" or "spirituality" because the claim remains undemonstrated. I have no properties and characteristics for that which does not exist.
I do have a comment about personality, (which you are confusing with spirituality and where that comes from. The sense of self is a higher brain function and it's seen in comparably lesser degrees in lesser animals (i.e., humans are not the only creatures with a sense of "self"). This in and of itself is enough to prove that "selfhood" is a natural phenomenon of higher brain functions. Either that, or your gods have made monkeys and men with a spirit each, and that means humans are the especial creation of one or more gods. Language, nurturing, survival, industry, and even environmental control all can be attributed to animals lesser on the sentience strat than man, which is a great case for man being of and a part of the natural world-- no gods, spirits or supernaturalism needed.
Personality is a phenomenon of the brain. Remove sections of the brain and the "self" changes as well. Apparently your spirituality is at the mercy of a few pounds of grey jelly, because the spirits cannot override the impact to the brain and the change in personality that attends that impact. These spirits must be fairly weak.
This is a perfectly valid explanation for personality, and it doesn't require the mumbo-jumbo of gods to explain it.
Non-material concepts are not fully non-material. You need a brain to substantiate them. Damage or impact to the brain directly affects the development and delivery of the concepts. You are simply assuming a spiritual nature for these things, and not submitting any case to support it. I am submitting they are the effects of the brain along with neurons and chemicals within the brain, and I can demonstrate how they can be manipulated by physical impact.
By way of example, I can
1. end all thought by killing that brain
2. create an emotion by chemical inducement of that brain
3. limit the thought and emotion of the brain by removing sections of it.
All the poetry about feelings and spirits and so on -- reside only in the brain. Remove it, and away it all goes. All of it. Even belief in gods.
Now you demonstrate the spiritual source, which you assert is the actual reason emotions exist and disassemble my case, please.
I found it odd that only a paragraph ago you wrote:
There is simply nothing about our brain and how it functions, that is physically different from other upper primates
Suddenly, your argumentation has changed. You now write:
The advancement of our species and what makes us vastly different from any other living thing,
Quite the waffle there.
Im not sure what spirituality is. I have trust in science, medicine, the law, personal freedoms, self expression, etc., all those rational (and ultimately knowable) elements within and part of the natural world. I make no assertions about our existence other than its perceivable and it's natural. Consistently, this assertion relies on logic and reason to uphold itself. The religionist asserts that "logic and reason have a crack in them" and are not up to the task of envisioning the "reality" of the "being behind the curtain" paradigm, i.e., the supernatural realms of gods, spirits, etc.
Do you think that human memories exist?I've seen GOD, spoken with GOD, and GOD spoke to me. GOD was very clear about being a manifestation of the mind, the result of neuro-chemical processes. *There is the proof your looking for. *Definitive proof that GOD only exists in your head.
Do you think that human memories exist?
