Definitive Proof that GOD Exists?

[Youwerecreated]

1 Ch 21: 1 And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.

2 Sam 24: 1 And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah.

Who Incited David to Number Israel?

by Eric Lyons, M.Min.


Census-taking under the Law of Moses was not inherently evil. In fact, God actually commanded Moses to number the Israelite soldiers on two different occasions—once in the second year after deliverance from Egyptian bondage, and again about forty years later near the end of Israel’s wanderings in the desert (Numbers 1:1-3,19; 26:2-4). Even though the book of Numbers describes many of their experiences while wandering through a barren land, the book takes its name (first assigned by the translators of the Septuagint) from these two numberings of the Israelites. Indeed, the taking of a census was a legitimate practice under the old law (cf. Exodus 30:11-16). Sometimes, however, one’s motives can turn lawful actions into sinful deeds (cf. Matthew 6:1-18). Such was the case with King David when he decided to number the Israelites in the latter part of his reign. God had not commanded a census be taken, nor did David instigate it for some noble cause. Instead, the Bible implies that David’s intentions (and thus his actions) were dishonorable, foolish, and sinful (cf. 2 Samuel 24:3,10ff.).

For many Bible readers, the parallel accounts that describe David’s numbering of Israel (found in 2 Samuel 24 and 1 Chronicles 21) pose a serious problem. “Why does 2 Samuel 24:1 state that God ‘moved’ David against Israel, while 1 Chronicles 21:1 says that it was Satan who ‘stood up against Israel, and moved David to number Israel’ ”? Can both passages be right, or is this a contradiction?

The Hebrew verb wayyaset, translated “moved” (NKJV) or “incited (NASV), is identical in both passages. God and Satan’s actions are described using the same word. The difference lies with the sense in which the word is used: Satan incited (or tempted—cf. 1 Thessalonians 3:5) David more directly, while God is spoken of as having incited David because He allowed such temptation to take place. The Hebrews often used active verbs to express “not the doing of the thing, but the permission of the thing which the agent is said to do” (Bullinger, 2898, p. 823, emp. in orig.). Throughout the Bible, God’s allowance of something to take place often is described by the sacred writers as having been done by the Lord.

The book of Exodus records how “God hardened Pharaoh’s heart” (Exodus 7:3,13; 9:12; 10:1; et al.), but it was not that God directly forced Pharaoh to reject His will. Rather, God hardened his heart in the sense that God provided the circumstances and the occasion for Pharaoh to reject His will. God sent Moses to place His demands before Pharaoh, even accompanying His Word with miracles—to confirm the divine origin of the message (cf. Mark 16:20). Pharaoh made up his own mind to resist God’s demands. God merely provided the occasion for Pharaoh to demonstrate his unyielding attitude. If God had not sent Moses, Pharaoh would not have been faced with the dilemma of whether to release the Israelites. So God was certainly the initiator of the circumstances that led to Pharaoh’s sin, but He was not the author (or direct cause) of Pharaoh’s defiance (see Butt and Miller, 2003).

Another instance where this idiomatic language can be found is in the book of Job. In fact, the situation regarding God and Satan inciting David to number Israel probably more closely parallels the first two chapters of Job than any other passage of Scripture. Satan went into the presence of God on two different occasions in Job 1-2. The first time, he charged that the righteous man Job only served God because of the blessings God showered upon him (1:9-11). God thus permitted Satan to afflict Job with suffering, telling Satan, “Behold, all that he has is in your power; only do not lay a hand on his person” (1:12). After Satan used both humans and natural agency to destroy Job’s wealth and all of his children (1:13-19), Satan returned to the Lord’s presence. Notice the exchange of words between God and Satan (in view of the Hebrew idiomatic thought: what God permits, He is said to do).


Then the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered My servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, one who fears God and shuns evil? And still he holds fast to his integrity, although you incited Me against him, to destroy him without cause.” So Satan answered the Lord and said, “Skin for skin! Yes, all that a man has he will give for his life. But stretch out Your hand now, and touch his bone and his flesh, and he will surely curse You to Your face!” And the Lord said to Satan, “Behold, he is in your hand, but spare his life.” So Satan went out from the presence of the Lord, and struck Job with painful boils from the sole of his foot to the crown of his head (Job 2:3-7, emp. added).

Even though God knew that Satan was the direct cause for Job’s suffering (recorded in chapter one), He told Satan: “You incited Me against him, to destroy him without cause” (2:3, emp. added). As a result of Job’s abstaining from sin during this time of suffering, Satan then proposed a new challenge to God, saying, “But stretch out Your hand now, and touch his bone and his flesh, and he will surely curse You to Your face” (vs. 4). In essence, God said, “Okay. I will,” but He did not do it directly. He merely allowed Satan to do it: “Behold, he [Job] is in your hand, but spare his life” (vs. 6). So Satan “struck Job with painful boils from the sole of his foot to the crown of his head” (vs. 7). The dialog between God and Satan in Job chapter 2 leaves no doubt that what God permits to take place often is described by sacred writers as having been done by God. The inspired author of Job even reiterated this point forty chapters later, when he wrote: “Then all his [Job’s] brothers, all his sisters, and all those who had been his acquaintances before, came to him and ate food with him in his house; and they consoled him and comforted him for all the adversity that the Lord had brought upon him” (42:11, emp. added).

In his commentary on 2 Samuel, Burton Coffman made mention that the same principle still is operative in the Christian dispensation.


Paul pointed out that people who do not love the truth but have pleasure in unrighteousness are actually incited by God to believe a falsehood that they might be condemned (2 Thessalonians 2:9-12). “Therefore God sends upon them a strong delusion to make them believe what is false, so that all may be condemned, etc.” (1992, p. 329).

Those discussed in 2 Thessalonians 2 made a decision to reject the truth of God’s Word (cf. vs. 10), and believe a lie. God sends a delusion, in the sense that He controls the world’s drama.

The problem of how a loving God (1 John 4:8) can send a “strong delusion” (2 Thessalonians 2:11), harden someone’s heart (Exodus 9:12), or incite someone to sin (as in the case of David numbering Israel—2 Samuel 24:1), can be compared to God’s work in nature. In one sense, a person could speak of God killing someone who jumps from a 100-story building to his death, because it was God Who set in motion the law of gravity (but He did not force the person over the edge). Some inspired writers wrote from this viewpoint, which was customary in their culture.

Truly, similar to how Pharaoh hardened his heart because God gave him occasion to do such, and similar to how Job suffered because God allowed Satan to strike Job with calamity, God allowed Satan to incite David to sin (1 Chronicles 21:1). Israel suffered as a direct result of Satan’s workings in the life of King David, which God allowed. Thus, both God and Satan legitimately could be said to have incited the king—but in different ways (and for different reasons).

Apologetics Press - Who Incited David to Number Israel?

 

[Youwerecreated]

It is true - your desperate need for others to support your bias conformation.

As is typical for creationists (absent a science vocabulary or training in the physical sciences), you recoil at any mention of evolutionary science. Science flatly contradicts the book of Genesis and is thus a direct threat to your fundamentalist theology, a threat to your worldview of super-magical gawds, a threat to the foundation of society and a threat to the basis of morality itself.

On the other side, spreading of errors and lies called creationism is a direct attack on good science, open investigation and learning. Fundies continue a campaign to reduce or remove evolutionary biology from public school science classrooms. This assault is not based on scientific arguments, but on religious objections. Proponents of creationism are frequently not scientists and couldn't tell you a thing about evolution if you asked them.

More often than not, they are fundie Christians looking to force their fears and superstitions on others.

You let me know when you're ready to grow up and have this discussion

There's no discussion to be had when you slither away in face of challenges to your fundie creationism.

What really matters most regarding the issue of science and exploration is quality science education in public schools. The primary issue of contention separating science and Christian creationism is the actual science. In creationism, the outcome that the bible is literally true is all that matters, and any scientific finding or empirical evidence that contradicts this preconceived conclusion is ignored or demonized. We see that consistently with your posts. Your revulsion for science and education is palpable, even with written text.

The study of evolution does not endorse any supernatural / religious viewpoint, as can be seen from the fact that people of ALL beliefs can accept it as true. Evolution is true science by virtue of it being formed from the evidence, not (as in the case of Christian creationism) in spite of the evidence.

Grow up,I am now gonna ignore your posts once again have a good day.

 

[Hollie]

You let me know when you're ready to grow up and have this discussion

There's no discussion to be had when you slither away in face of challenges to your fundie creationism.

What really matters most regarding the issue of science and exploration is quality science education in public schools. The primary issue of contention separating science and Christian creationism is the actual science. In creationism, the outcome that the bible is literally true is all that matters, and any scientific finding or empirical evidence that contradicts this preconceived conclusion is ignored or demonized. We see that consistently with your posts. Your revulsion for science and education is palpable, even with written text.

The study of evolution does not endorse any supernatural / religious viewpoint, as can be seen from the fact that people of ALL beliefs can accept it as true. Evolution is true science by virtue of it being formed from the evidence, not (as in the case of Christian creationism) in spite of the evidence.

Grow up,I am now gonna ignore your posts once again have a good day.

Slithering away because your specious opinions are being challenged.

If memory serves, this is the 8th time you have blustered about putting me on ignore, or threatened to ignore my posts, only to return when several pages of the thread have scrolled by and you feel less likely to be called out for... well... slithering away.

 

[BreezeWood]

It is true - your desperate need for others to support your bias conformation.

As is typical for creationists (absent a science vocabulary or training in the physical sciences), you recoil at any mention of evolutionary science. Science flatly contradicts the book of Genesis and is thus a direct threat to your fundamentalist theology, a threat to your worldview of super-magical gawds, a threat to the foundation of society and a threat to the basis of morality itself.

On the other side, spreading of errors and lies called creationism is a direct attack on good science, open investigation and learning. Fundies continue a campaign to reduce or remove evolutionary biology from public school science classrooms. This assault is not based on scientific arguments, but on religious objections. Proponents of creationism are frequently not scientists and couldn't tell you a thing about evolution if you asked them.

More often than not, they are fundie Christians looking to force their fears and superstitions on others.

try and forget the corrupt Bible, the true message is simply a possible conclusion at the apex of knowledge as a key for existence beyond breath to the Everlasting .... Atheist need not apply.

the thread has yet to be invalidated by anyone that however life began it was Spiritual in nature and continues to the present - and (implied) without it will ultimately lead to that species demise. ie - denigration of the Garden is a spiritless will propagated by Atheism for the immediate comforts unwarranted for future generations that will perish because of it.

 

[Hollie]

It is true - your desperate need for others to support your bias conformation.

As is typical for creationists (absent a science vocabulary or training in the physical sciences), you recoil at any mention of evolutionary science. Science flatly contradicts the book of Genesis and is thus a direct threat to your fundamentalist theology, a threat to your worldview of super-magical gawds, a threat to the foundation of society and a threat to the basis of morality itself.

On the other side, spreading of errors and lies called creationism is a direct attack on good science, open investigation and learning. Fundies continue a campaign to reduce or remove evolutionary biology from public school science classrooms. This assault is not based on scientific arguments, but on religious objections. Proponents of creationism are frequently not scientists and couldn't tell you a thing about evolution if you asked them.

More often than not, they are fundie Christians looking to force their fears and superstitions on others.

try and forget the corrupt Bible, the true message is simply a possible conclusion at the apex of knowledge as a key for existence beyond breath to the Everlasting .... Atheist need not apply.

the thread has yet to be invalidated by anyone that however life began it was Spiritual in nature and continues to the present - and (implied) without it will ultimately lead to that species demise. ie - denigration of the Garden is a spiritless will propagated by Atheism for the immediate comforts unwarranted for future generations that will perish because of it.

Your comment is incorrect.

I have in fact invalidated the claim that life began by "spiritual" (supernatural), means.

You have not invalidated my invalidation.

See? Ain't countering your "prove a negative" with a similar "prove a negative", just grand?

 

[edthecynic]

1 Ch 21: 1 And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.

2 Sam 24: 1 And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah.

Who Incited David to Number Israel?

by Eric Lyons, M.Min.


Census-taking under the Law of Moses was not inherently evil. In fact, God actually commanded Moses to number the Israelite soldiers on two different occasions—once in the second year after deliverance from Egyptian bondage, and again about forty years later near the end of Israel’s wanderings in the desert (Numbers 1:1-3,19; 26:2-4). Even though the book of Numbers describes many of their experiences while wandering through a barren land, the book takes its name (first assigned by the translators of the Septuagint) from these two numberings of the Israelites. Indeed, the taking of a census was a legitimate practice under the old law (cf. Exodus 30:11-16). Sometimes, however, one’s motives can turn lawful actions into sinful deeds (cf. Matthew 6:1-18). Such was the case with King David when he decided to number the Israelites in the latter part of his reign. God had not commanded a census be taken, nor did David instigate it for some noble cause. Instead, the Bible implies that David’s intentions (and thus his actions) were dishonorable, foolish, and sinful (cf. 2 Samuel 24:3,10ff.).

For many Bible readers, the parallel accounts that describe David’s numbering of Israel (found in 2 Samuel 24 and 1 Chronicles 21) pose a serious problem. “Why does 2 Samuel 24:1 state that God ‘moved’ David against Israel, while 1 Chronicles 21:1 says that it was Satan who ‘stood up against Israel, and moved David to number Israel’ ”? Can both passages be right, or is this a contradiction?

The Hebrew verb wayyaset, translated “moved” (NKJV) or “incited (NASV), is identical in both passages. God and Satan’s actions are described using the same word. The difference lies with the sense in which the word is used: Satan incited (or tempted—cf. 1 Thessalonians 3:5) David more directly, while God is spoken of as having incited David because He allowed such temptation to take place. The Hebrews often used active verbs to express “not the doing of the thing, but the permission of the thing which the agent is said to do” (Bullinger, 2898, p. 823, emp. in orig.). Throughout the Bible, God’s allowance of something to take place often is described by the sacred writers as having been done by the Lord.

The book of Exodus records how “God hardened Pharaoh’s heart” (Exodus 7:3,13; 9:12; 10:1; et al.), but it was not that God directly forced Pharaoh to reject His will. Rather, God hardened his heart in the sense that God provided the circumstances and the occasion for Pharaoh to reject His will. God sent Moses to place His demands before Pharaoh, even accompanying His Word with miracles—to confirm the divine origin of the message (cf. Mark 16:20). Pharaoh made up his own mind to resist God’s demands. God merely provided the occasion for Pharaoh to demonstrate his unyielding attitude. If God had not sent Moses, Pharaoh would not have been faced with the dilemma of whether to release the Israelites. So God was certainly the initiator of the circumstances that led to Pharaoh’s sin, but He was not the author (or direct cause) of Pharaoh’s defiance (see Butt and Miller, 2003).

Another instance where this idiomatic language can be found is in the book of Job. In fact, the situation regarding God and Satan inciting David to number Israel probably more closely parallels the first two chapters of Job than any other passage of Scripture. Satan went into the presence of God on two different occasions in Job 1-2. The first time, he charged that the righteous man Job only served God because of the blessings God showered upon him (1:9-11). God thus permitted Satan to afflict Job with suffering, telling Satan, “Behold, all that he has is in your power; only do not lay a hand on his person” (1:12). After Satan used both humans and natural agency to destroy Job’s wealth and all of his children (1:13-19), Satan returned to the Lord’s presence. Notice the exchange of words between God and Satan (in view of the Hebrew idiomatic thought: what God permits, He is said to do).


Then the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered My servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, one who fears God and shuns evil? And still he holds fast to his integrity, although you incited Me against him, to destroy him without cause.” So Satan answered the Lord and said, “Skin for skin! Yes, all that a man has he will give for his life. But stretch out Your hand now, and touch his bone and his flesh, and he will surely curse You to Your face!” And the Lord said to Satan, “Behold, he is in your hand, but spare his life.” So Satan went out from the presence of the Lord, and struck Job with painful boils from the sole of his foot to the crown of his head (Job 2:3-7, emp. added).

Even though God knew that Satan was the direct cause for Job’s suffering (recorded in chapter one), He told Satan: “You incited Me against him, to destroy him without cause” (2:3, emp. added). As a result of Job’s abstaining from sin during this time of suffering, Satan then proposed a new challenge to God, saying, “But stretch out Your hand now, and touch his bone and his flesh, and he will surely curse You to Your face” (vs. 4). In essence, God said, “Okay. I will,” but He did not do it directly. He merely allowed Satan to do it: “Behold, he [Job] is in your hand, but spare his life” (vs. 6). So Satan “struck Job with painful boils from the sole of his foot to the crown of his head” (vs. 7). The dialog between God and Satan in Job chapter 2 leaves no doubt that what God permits to take place often is described by sacred writers as having been done by God. The inspired author of Job even reiterated this point forty chapters later, when he wrote: “Then all his [Job’s] brothers, all his sisters, and all those who had been his acquaintances before, came to him and ate food with him in his house; and they consoled him and comforted him for all the adversity that the Lord had brought upon him” (42:11, emp. added).

In his commentary on 2 Samuel, Burton Coffman made mention that the same principle still is operative in the Christian dispensation.


Paul pointed out that people who do not love the truth but have pleasure in unrighteousness are actually incited by God to believe a falsehood that they might be condemned (2 Thessalonians 2:9-12). “Therefore God sends upon them a strong delusion to make them believe what is false, so that all may be condemned, etc.” (1992, p. 329).

Those discussed in 2 Thessalonians 2 made a decision to reject the truth of God’s Word (cf. vs. 10), and believe a lie. God sends a delusion, in the sense that He controls the world’s drama.

The problem of how a loving God (1 John 4:8) can send a “strong delusion” (2 Thessalonians 2:11), harden someone’s heart (Exodus 9:12), or incite someone to sin (as in the case of David numbering Israel—2 Samuel 24:1), can be compared to God’s work in nature. In one sense, a person could speak of God killing someone who jumps from a 100-story building to his death, because it was God Who set in motion the law of gravity (but He did not force the person over the edge). Some inspired writers wrote from this viewpoint, which was customary in their culture.

Truly, similar to how Pharaoh hardened his heart because God gave him occasion to do such, and similar to how Job suffered because God allowed Satan to strike Job with calamity, God allowed Satan to incite David to sin (1 Chronicles 21:1). Israel suffered as a direct result of Satan’s workings in the life of King David, which God allowed. Thus, both God and Satan legitimately could be said to have incited the king—but in different ways (and for different reasons).

Apologetics Press - Who Incited David to Number Israel?

So basically, no matter what the English words say, they are always wrong and you can make them say anything you want.

So if you say in English, saved by grace and not by works, that could mean saved by works and not by grace if you want it to. The bible in English is completely worthless.

 

[numan]

'
Trying to rationalize God's actions in the Bible is really silly.

Ancient people, in general, did not have notions of of a high, noble, transcendent God -- indeed, many people today, even on this august forum, have exceedingly crude notions of deity. That came in with the Greek philosophers. Ancient Gods were tricky, dangerous, emotional, and full of what we call vices. They had to be placated and flattered, but no one expected them to be nice.
.

 

[Youwerecreated]

1 Ch 21: 1 And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.

2 Sam 24: 1 And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah.

Who Incited David to Number Israel?

by Eric Lyons, M.Min.


Census-taking under the Law of Moses was not inherently evil. In fact, God actually commanded Moses to number the Israelite soldiers on two different occasions—once in the second year after deliverance from Egyptian bondage, and again about forty years later near the end of Israel’s wanderings in the desert (Numbers 1:1-3,19; 26:2-4). Even though the book of Numbers describes many of their experiences while wandering through a barren land, the book takes its name (first assigned by the translators of the Septuagint) from these two numberings of the Israelites. Indeed, the taking of a census was a legitimate practice under the old law (cf. Exodus 30:11-16). Sometimes, however, one’s motives can turn lawful actions into sinful deeds (cf. Matthew 6:1-18). Such was the case with King David when he decided to number the Israelites in the latter part of his reign. God had not commanded a census be taken, nor did David instigate it for some noble cause. Instead, the Bible implies that David’s intentions (and thus his actions) were dishonorable, foolish, and sinful (cf. 2 Samuel 24:3,10ff.).

For many Bible readers, the parallel accounts that describe David’s numbering of Israel (found in 2 Samuel 24 and 1 Chronicles 21) pose a serious problem. “Why does 2 Samuel 24:1 state that God ‘moved’ David against Israel, while 1 Chronicles 21:1 says that it was Satan who ‘stood up against Israel, and moved David to number Israel’ ”? Can both passages be right, or is this a contradiction?

The Hebrew verb wayyaset, translated “moved” (NKJV) or “incited (NASV), is identical in both passages. God and Satan’s actions are described using the same word. The difference lies with the sense in which the word is used: Satan incited (or tempted—cf. 1 Thessalonians 3:5) David more directly, while God is spoken of as having incited David because He allowed such temptation to take place. The Hebrews often used active verbs to express “not the doing of the thing, but the permission of the thing which the agent is said to do” (Bullinger, 2898, p. 823, emp. in orig.). Throughout the Bible, God’s allowance of something to take place often is described by the sacred writers as having been done by the Lord.

The book of Exodus records how “God hardened Pharaoh’s heart” (Exodus 7:3,13; 9:12; 10:1; et al.), but it was not that God directly forced Pharaoh to reject His will. Rather, God hardened his heart in the sense that God provided the circumstances and the occasion for Pharaoh to reject His will. God sent Moses to place His demands before Pharaoh, even accompanying His Word with miracles—to confirm the divine origin of the message (cf. Mark 16:20). Pharaoh made up his own mind to resist God’s demands. God merely provided the occasion for Pharaoh to demonstrate his unyielding attitude. If God had not sent Moses, Pharaoh would not have been faced with the dilemma of whether to release the Israelites. So God was certainly the initiator of the circumstances that led to Pharaoh’s sin, but He was not the author (or direct cause) of Pharaoh’s defiance (see Butt and Miller, 2003).

Another instance where this idiomatic language can be found is in the book of Job. In fact, the situation regarding God and Satan inciting David to number Israel probably more closely parallels the first two chapters of Job than any other passage of Scripture. Satan went into the presence of God on two different occasions in Job 1-2. The first time, he charged that the righteous man Job only served God because of the blessings God showered upon him (1:9-11). God thus permitted Satan to afflict Job with suffering, telling Satan, “Behold, all that he has is in your power; only do not lay a hand on his person” (1:12). After Satan used both humans and natural agency to destroy Job’s wealth and all of his children (1:13-19), Satan returned to the Lord’s presence. Notice the exchange of words between God and Satan (in view of the Hebrew idiomatic thought: what God permits, He is said to do).


Then the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered My servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, one who fears God and shuns evil? And still he holds fast to his integrity, although you incited Me against him, to destroy him without cause.” So Satan answered the Lord and said, “Skin for skin! Yes, all that a man has he will give for his life. But stretch out Your hand now, and touch his bone and his flesh, and he will surely curse You to Your face!” And the Lord said to Satan, “Behold, he is in your hand, but spare his life.” So Satan went out from the presence of the Lord, and struck Job with painful boils from the sole of his foot to the crown of his head (Job 2:3-7, emp. added).

Even though God knew that Satan was the direct cause for Job’s suffering (recorded in chapter one), He told Satan: “You incited Me against him, to destroy him without cause” (2:3, emp. added). As a result of Job’s abstaining from sin during this time of suffering, Satan then proposed a new challenge to God, saying, “But stretch out Your hand now, and touch his bone and his flesh, and he will surely curse You to Your face” (vs. 4). In essence, God said, “Okay. I will,” but He did not do it directly. He merely allowed Satan to do it: “Behold, he [Job] is in your hand, but spare his life” (vs. 6). So Satan “struck Job with painful boils from the sole of his foot to the crown of his head” (vs. 7). The dialog between God and Satan in Job chapter 2 leaves no doubt that what God permits to take place often is described by sacred writers as having been done by God. The inspired author of Job even reiterated this point forty chapters later, when he wrote: “Then all his [Job’s] brothers, all his sisters, and all those who had been his acquaintances before, came to him and ate food with him in his house; and they consoled him and comforted him for all the adversity that the Lord had brought upon him” (42:11, emp. added).

In his commentary on 2 Samuel, Burton Coffman made mention that the same principle still is operative in the Christian dispensation.


Paul pointed out that people who do not love the truth but have pleasure in unrighteousness are actually incited by God to believe a falsehood that they might be condemned (2 Thessalonians 2:9-12). “Therefore God sends upon them a strong delusion to make them believe what is false, so that all may be condemned, etc.” (1992, p. 329).

Those discussed in 2 Thessalonians 2 made a decision to reject the truth of God’s Word (cf. vs. 10), and believe a lie. God sends a delusion, in the sense that He controls the world’s drama.

The problem of how a loving God (1 John 4:8) can send a “strong delusion” (2 Thessalonians 2:11), harden someone’s heart (Exodus 9:12), or incite someone to sin (as in the case of David numbering Israel—2 Samuel 24:1), can be compared to God’s work in nature. In one sense, a person could speak of God killing someone who jumps from a 100-story building to his death, because it was God Who set in motion the law of gravity (but He did not force the person over the edge). Some inspired writers wrote from this viewpoint, which was customary in their culture.

Truly, similar to how Pharaoh hardened his heart because God gave him occasion to do such, and similar to how Job suffered because God allowed Satan to strike Job with calamity, God allowed Satan to incite David to sin (1 Chronicles 21:1). Israel suffered as a direct result of Satan’s workings in the life of King David, which God allowed. Thus, both God and Satan legitimately could be said to have incited the king—but in different ways (and for different reasons).

Apologetics Press - Who Incited David to Number Israel?

So basically, no matter what the English words say, they are always wrong and you can make them say anything you want.

So if you say in English, saved by grace and not by works, that could mean saved by works and not by grace if you want it to. The bible in English is completely worthless.

No but most of your attacks are from versions that contain the many mistakes in translation. The kjv and the niv in my opinion are the worst translations but the truth can be found in any version its just some translations have little more little errors from translation. When I find a problem like you point out I can just research the verse in question and compare it with other translations.

 

[Youwerecreated]

'
Trying to rationalize God's actions in the Bible is really silly.

Ancient people, in general, did not have notions of of a high, noble, transcendent God -- indeed, many people today, even on this august forum, have exceedingly crude notions of deity. That came in with the Greek philosophers. Ancient Gods were tricky, dangerous, emotional, and full of what we call vices. They had to be placated and flattered, but no one expected them to be nice.
.

There is only one God maybe that is the problem for some.

 

[edthecynic]

'
Trying to rationalize God's actions in the Bible is really silly.

Ancient people, in general, did not have notions of of a high, noble, transcendent God -- indeed, many people today, even on this august forum, have exceedingly crude notions of deity. That came in with the Greek philosophers. Ancient Gods were tricky, dangerous, emotional, and full of what we call vices. They had to be placated and flattered, but no one expected them to be nice.
.

There is only one God maybe that is the problem for some.

Prove it!

 

[Youwerecreated]

'
Trying to rationalize God's actions in the Bible is really silly.

Ancient people, in general, did not have notions of of a high, noble, transcendent God -- indeed, many people today, even on this august forum, have exceedingly crude notions of deity. That came in with the Greek philosophers. Ancient Gods were tricky, dangerous, emotional, and full of what we call vices. They had to be placated and flattered, but no one expected them to be nice.
.

There is only one God maybe that is the problem for some.

Prove it!

You don't have to look any further than nature to prove it.

 

[Derideo_Te]

There is only one God maybe that is the problem for some.

Prove it!

You don't have to look any further than nature to prove it.

You mean the factual scientific evidence in nature that supports evolution is also somehow "proof" that there is only a single deity? No point in expecting you to provide a rational explanation for that leap of illogic.

 

[edthecynic]

There is only one God maybe that is the problem for some.

Prove it!

You don't have to look any further than nature to prove it.

Baloney!

 

[edthecynic]

Prove it!

You don't have to look any further than nature to prove it.

You mean the factual scientific evidence in nature that supports evolution is also somehow "proof" that there is only a single deity? No point in expecting you to provide a rational explanation for that leap of illogic.

Nature told me that there are 6.02214X×10^23 Gods per universe.

 

[Hollie]

There is only one God maybe that is the problem for some.

Prove it!

You don't have to look any further than nature to prove it.

What nonsense. Nothing in nature depicts supernaturalism. Every discovery in science has had a natural explanation.

As we've seen, you cannot identify a single instance of supernaturalism - something in the natural world that has supernatural underpinnings.

You've heard the expression "put up or shut up"?

 

[newpolitics]

There is only one God maybe that is the problem for some.

Prove it!

You don't have to look any further than nature to prove it.

The natural does not prove the supernatural. There is no logical inference here, only an assertion without proof.

 

[Youwerecreated]

Prove it!

You don't have to look any further than nature to prove it.

The natural does not prove the supernatural. There is no logical inference here, only an assertion without proof.

I believe there is no possibility that this fully self contained planet bursting with life is a product of chance. I believe nature reveals a designer not naturalism. You people cam believe as you wish I don't believe in miracles.

 

[edthecynic]

You don't have to look any further than nature to prove it.

The natural does not prove the supernatural. There is no logical inference here, only an assertion without proof.

I believe there is no possibility that this fully self contained planet bursting with life is a product of chance. I believe nature reveals a designer not naturalism. You people cam believe as you wish I don't believe in miracles.

Nature reveals a "designer" who has everything in the universe smashing into each other in a completely disorganized manner. A "designer" of perpetual commotion.

 

[freedombecki]

[ame=http://youtu.be/axh4U2f51Hw]He Lives! - YouTube[/ame]

 

[Montrovant]

You don't have to look any further than nature to prove it.

The natural does not prove the supernatural. There is no logical inference here, only an assertion without proof.

I believe there is no possibility that this fully self contained planet bursting with life is a product of chance. I believe nature reveals a designer not naturalism. You people cam believe as you wish I don't believe in miracles.

Even if that is the case, it doesn't mean a single designer, does it?

I thought this was in response to your contention there is only one god.

Also, you do NOT believe in miracles? So are you saying god does not work miracles?