Democracy Lost...

[dcraelin]

<when asked by a passerby what sort of government the constitutional convention had formulated for the new nation, Benjamin Franklin memorably replied, “A republic, if you can keep it”>

He may or may not have said that, but since Republic is really just the Latin term for Democracy it proves nothing. Franklin himself wanted a one-house legislature and no president but an executive council.

 

[Hossfly]

<when asked by a passerby what sort of government the constitutional convention had formulated for the new nation, Benjamin Franklin memorably replied, “A republic, if you can keep it”>

He may or may not have said that, but since Republic is really just the Latin term for Democracy it proves nothing. Franklin himself wanted a one-house legislature and no president but an executive council.

The argument is moot because Obumbo is working toward a Caliphate and we unwashed will rejoice.

 

[peach174]

<when asked by a passerby what sort of government the constitutional convention had formulated for the new nation, Benjamin Franklin memorably replied, &#8220;A republic, if you can keep it&#8221;>

He may or may not have said that, but since Republic is really just the Latin term for Democracy it proves nothing. Franklin himself wanted a one-house legislature and no president but an executive council.

No it doesn't.
Republic in Latin, 'res publica.' English translation of 'res publica' is 'public affair,' 'public matter,' or 'public issue.' The term 'res publica' provides the basic definition and framework for the English term and concept of a Republic.
Whoever taught you Latin should have been fired.

If you read the Founders papers and letters you will find that they did not want anything at all to do with a Democracy. They had all seen or witnessed and read the history about democracies failing all the time.
They wanted a Republic and put it in our Constitution as a guarantee.
The Revolutionary war was fought over a Monarchy where individuals or groups or minorities had no protection.

Democracy
The chief characteristic and distinguishing feature of a Democracy is: Rule by Omnipotent Majority. In a Democracy, The Individual, and any group of Individuals composing any Minority, have no protection against the unlimited power of The Majority. It is a case of Majority-over-Man.

In both the Direct type and the Representative type of Democracy, The Majority&#8217;s power is absolute and unlimited; its decisions are unappealable under the legal system established to give effect to this form of government. This opens the door to unlimited Tyranny-by-Majority. This was what The Framers of the United States Constitution meant in 1787, in debates in the Federal (framing) Convention, when they condemned the "excesses of democracy" and abuses under any Democracy of the unalienable rights of The Individual by The Majority. Examples were provided in the immediate post-1776 years by the legislatures of some of the States. In reaction against earlier royal tyranny, which had been exercised through oppressions by royal governors and judges of the new State governments, while the legislatures acted as if they were virtually omnipotent. There were no effective State Constitutions to limit the legislatures because most State governments were operating under mere Acts of their respective legislatures which were mislabelled "Constitutions." Neither the governors not the courts of the offending States were able to exercise any substantial and effective restraining influence upon the legislatures in defense of The Individual&#8217;s unalienable rights, when violated by legislative infringements. (Connecticut and Rhode Island continued under their old Charters for many years.) It was not until 1780 that the first genuine Republic through constitutionally limited government, was adopted by Massachusetts--next New Hampshire in 1784, other States later.




Our Constitution guarantees us a Republic form of Government.


A Republic - which is what we are.

A Republic, on the other hand, has a very different purpose and an entirely different form, or system, of government. Its purpose is to control The Majority strictly, as well as all others among the people, primarily to protect The Individual&#8217;s God-given, unalienable rights and therefore for the protection of the rights of The Minority, of all minorities, and the liberties of people in general. The definition of a Republic is: a constitutionally limited government of the representative type, created by a written Constitution--adopted by the people and changeable (from its original meaning) by them only by its amendment--with its powers divided between three separate Branches: Executive, Legislative and Judicial. Here the term "the people" means, of course, the electorate.

 

[dblack]

Jeez... are quote tags that hard to figure out?

 

[dblack]

The problems raised in the OP are cause by two factors:

First, when government grows beyond predictable, Constitutional limitations, it becomes a tool for anyone who wants to force their will on society. To put it another way, when government can interfere with anything anyone and everyone does, anyone and everyone will be vying to manipulate it.

Second, when government fails to protect our rights equally, when it is allowed to create laws that cut a 'deal' for some at the expense of others - then once again, lobbyists will descend on DC to get special provisions lined up for their patrons. It's the move away from equal protection, toward corporatism, that's killing us.

 

[Hossfly]

Basically, in a republic, the People elect representatives who are subject to the People while in office.
In a democracy the People elect a representative, surrender their power to the representative who then determines what's right for the little people. <Suckers>

 

[Bloodrock44]

The problems raised in the OP are cause by two factors:

First, when government grows beyond predictable, Constitutional limitations, it becomes a tool for anyone who wants to force their will on society. To put it another way, when government can interfere with anything anyone and everyone does, anyone and everyone will be vying to manipulate it.

Second, when government fails to protect our rights equally, when it is allowed to create laws that cut a 'deal' for some at the expense of others - then once again, lobbyists will descend on DC to get special provisions lined up for their patrons. It's the move away from equal protection, toward corporatism, that's killing us.

Actually, the OP is nothing more than a rant against Jews and how they buy American politicians so we will fight Israel's wars.

 

[dcraelin]

quoting you "Republic in Latin, 'res publica.' English translation of 'res publica' is 'public affair,' 'public matter,' or 'public issue.' The term 'res publica' provides the basic definition and framework for the English term and concept of a Republic."

I agree with that AND that that coincides well with Democracy i.e. "people power" they both allude to the sovereignty of the people. The other writing Ive seen before and its mostly drivel with some good points thrown in.

The constitution does not guarantee that the US is a Republic just that the states should be, I think Hamilton actually calls it a Confederation. But, I do think we are a Republic which means we are also a Democracy

 

[dcraelin]

I think I agree with you on the condition of our government. But there is no distinction between Republics and Democracies on this score.

 

[Hossfly]

I think I agree with you on the condition of our government. But there is no distinction between Republics and Democracies on this score.

You can post links now and it might help if you quote the post you're answering.

 

[peach174]

quoting you "Republic in Latin, 'res publica.' English translation of 'res publica' is 'public affair,' 'public matter,' or 'public issue.' The term 'res publica' provides the basic definition and framework for the English term and concept of a Republic."

I agree with that AND that that coincides well with Democracy i.e. "people power" they both allude to the sovereignty of the people. The other writing Ive seen before and its mostly drivel with some good points thrown in.

The constitution does not guarantee that the US is a Republic just that the states should be, I think Hamilton actually calls it a Confederation. But, I do think we are a Republic which means we are also a Democracy

Article IV Sec. 4
The United States (Federal) shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government. That means Federal as well as the States.

No other nation on this Earth has Amendments added to their Constitutions like we do.
This is why our founders said we were an experiment because we were the first country to ever have a Republic that has rights given to the minority as well as the majority.
A Democracy does not give rights to the minority.

The Framers, by their protests against the "excesses of democracy," were merely making clear their sound reasons for preferring a Republic as the proper form of government. They well knew, in light of history, that nothing but a Republic can provide the best safeguards--in truth in the long run the only effective safeguards (if enforced in practice)--for the people’s liberties which are inescapably victimized by Democracy’s form and system of unlimited Government-over-Man featuring The Majority Omnipotent.

We now have unlimited Government that has turned into a Oligarchy where the Minority rules over the Majority.

 

[dcraelin]

Article IV Sec. 4
The United States (Federal) shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government. That means Federal as well as the States.

It does not say Federal, it does not mean Federal, that is an overreach by you,....but I do agree that we are a Republic....but all your definitional differences with Democracy are made up

Read Federalist #9 to see how Hamilton really despised Republics

the Bill of rights was only passed because of pressure from the constitutions opponents.

see my pics on the subject in my photo album

 

[dcraelin]

Thanks tho I find the format too bulky, and extensive quoting merely ads to that. And tried posting some but didnt work will try again

 

[pbel]

quoting you "Republic in Latin, 'res publica.' English translation of 'res publica' is 'public affair,' 'public matter,' or 'public issue.' The term 'res publica' provides the basic definition and framework for the English term and concept of a Republic."

I agree with that AND that that coincides well with Democracy i.e. "people power" they both allude to the sovereignty of the people. The other writing Ive seen before and its mostly drivel with some good points thrown in.

The constitution does not guarantee that the US is a Republic just that the states should be, I think Hamilton actually calls it a Confederation. But, I do think we are a Republic which means we are also a Democracy

Article IV Sec. 4
The United States (Federal) shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government. That means Federal as well as the States.

No other nation on this Earth has Amendments added to their Constitutions like we do.
This is why our founders said we were an experiment because we were the first country to ever have a Republic that has rights given to the minority as well as the majority.
A Democracy does not give rights to the minority.

The Framers, by their protests against the "excesses of democracy," were merely making clear their sound reasons for preferring a Republic as the proper form of government. They well knew, in light of history, that nothing but a Republic can provide the best safeguards--in truth in the long run the only effective safeguards (if enforced in practice)--for the people&#8217;s liberties which are inescapably victimized by Democracy&#8217;s form and system of unlimited Government-over-Man featuring The Majority Omnipotent.

We now have unlimited Government that has turned into a Oligarchy where the Minority rules over the Majority.

The American Republic was established in the cradle of the Enlightenment...The almost opposite views of Locke and Rousseau were greatly admired...The Republics philosophy has elements of both.

Today in America rule by the Majority is non-existent as the vast majority of Americans are against a strike on Syria, as the President and Congress dance to the tune of money.

The Republic is Ruled by the money Oligarchy!

 

[peach174]

Article IV Sec. 4
The United States (Federal) shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government. That means Federal as well as the States.

It does not say Federal, it does not mean Federal, that is an overreach by you,....but I do agree that we are a Republic....but all your definitional differences with Democracy are made up

Read Federalist #9 to see how Hamilton really despised Republics

the Bill of rights was only passed because of pressure from the constitutions opponents.

see my pics on the subject in my photo album

The Constitution is the Law of the land and it is for the Federal Government as well as the States.

The Definitions I put up of Democracy come from the Dictionary.
Sorry they are not made up.

Hamilton was putting down the implementations of Republics by Greece and Italy.
He was for our Confederate Republic.
He was for each State being a Republic and consolidated to the Federal Republic.

The Bill of Rights was added to strengthen the Constitution.

 

[gallantwarrior]

Some dont even honor Democracy anymore,. The idea that we are "not a Democracy" is popular among some in rt-wing and Libertarian circles. They have that ridiculous saying that "we are a Republic, Not a Democracy" which I think is a dangerous line of thought.

Technically, we're a representative republic. Why is that a dangerous line of thought?

 

[P F Tinmore]

quoting you "Republic in Latin, 'res publica.' English translation of 'res publica' is 'public affair,' 'public matter,' or 'public issue.' The term 'res publica' provides the basic definition and framework for the English term and concept of a Republic."

I agree with that AND that that coincides well with Democracy i.e. "people power" they both allude to the sovereignty of the people. The other writing Ive seen before and its mostly drivel with some good points thrown in.

The constitution does not guarantee that the US is a Republic just that the states should be, I think Hamilton actually calls it a Confederation. But, I do think we are a Republic which means we are also a Democracy

Article IV Sec. 4
The United States (Federal) shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government. That means Federal as well as the States.

No other nation on this Earth has Amendments added to their Constitutions like we do.
This is why our founders said we were an experiment because we were the first country to ever have a Republic that has rights given to the minority as well as the majority.
A Democracy does not give rights to the minority.

The Framers, by their protests against the "excesses of democracy," were merely making clear their sound reasons for preferring a Republic as the proper form of government. They well knew, in light of history, that nothing but a Republic can provide the best safeguards--in truth in the long run the only effective safeguards (if enforced in practice)--for the people’s liberties which are inescapably victimized by Democracy’s form and system of unlimited Government-over-Man featuring The Majority Omnipotent.

We now have unlimited Government that has turned into a Oligarchy where the Minority rules over the Majority.

The American Republic was established in the cradle of the Enlightenment...The almost opposite views of Locke and Rousseau were greatly admired...The Republics philosophy has elements of both.

Today in America rule by the Majority is non-existent as the vast majority of Americans are against a strike on Syria, as the President and Congress dance to the tune of money.

The Republic is Ruled by the money Oligarchy!

Post of the day!

 

[Roudy]

Article IV Sec. 4
The United States (Federal) shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government. That means Federal as well as the States.

No other nation on this Earth has Amendments added to their Constitutions like we do.
This is why our founders said we were an experiment because we were the first country to ever have a Republic that has rights given to the minority as well as the majority.
A Democracy does not give rights to the minority.

The Framers, by their protests against the "excesses of democracy," were merely making clear their sound reasons for preferring a Republic as the proper form of government. They well knew, in light of history, that nothing but a Republic can provide the best safeguards--in truth in the long run the only effective safeguards (if enforced in practice)--for the people&#8217;s liberties which are inescapably victimized by Democracy&#8217;s form and system of unlimited Government-over-Man featuring The Majority Omnipotent.

We now have unlimited Government that has turned into a Oligarchy where the Minority rules over the Majority.

The American Republic was established in the cradle of the Enlightenment...The almost opposite views of Locke and Rousseau were greatly admired...The Republics philosophy has elements of both.

Today in America rule by the Majority is non-existent as the vast majority of Americans are against a strike on Syria, as the President and Congress dance to the tune of money.

The Republic is Ruled by the money Oligarchy!

Post of the day!

At this point, with the mess that Obama has made of this, many, including myself who were initially for a strike on Syria are now against it. For or against the strike is now a bipartisan issue. None of this is new information.

And then there's a class of Jew and Israel haters who are naturally against a strike because Syria's Assad is part of the axis of Israel's enemies. Which gives you an idea of the nature of Israel's enemies.

The US is not strictly run by "majority rule" only. If that was the case all these laws that majorities have passed wouldn't have been overturned.

 

[dcraelin]

Article IV Sec. 4
The United States (Federal) shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government. That means Federal as well as the States.

It does not say Federal, it does not mean Federal, that is an overreach by you,....but I do agree that we are a Republic....but all your definitional differences with Democracy are made up

Read Federalist #9 to see how Hamilton really despised Republics

the Bill of rights was only passed because of pressure from the constitutions opponents.

see my pics on the subject in my photo album

The Constitution is the Law of the land and it is for the Federal Government as well as the States.

The Definitions I put up of Democracy come from the Dictionary.
Sorry they are not made up.

Hamilton was putting down the implementations of Republics by Greece and Italy.
He was for our Confederate Republic.
He was for each State being a Republic and consolidated to the Federal Republic.

The Bill of Rights was added to strengthen the Constitution.

Dictionaries are in some respects too fluid, twerking is now in the dictionary, and years of misdefinition of Republic may be as well, tho I dont think any definition given by u, that I saw, is in the dictionary.

The idea of Republics at the time was largely demonstrated by the examples Hamilton gave. Yes Madison did try to draw a distinction, but it was a novel one to the times which is why he had to qualify it. And it was within a document not widely read which probably didn't even have that great of effect even within the state it was written.

see some of my pictures that refute what I see as your perception of Republic

 

[dcraelin]

Some dont even honor Democracy anymore,. The idea that we are "not a Democracy" is popular among some in rt-wing and Libertarian circles. They have that ridiculous saying that "we are a Republic, Not a Democracy" which I think is a dangerous line of thought.

Technically, we're a representative republic. Why is that a dangerous line of thought?

Technically its right to say we are currently set up on a representative basis, but that has nothing to do with being a Republic. Its dangerous because it sometimes coincides with the view that representatives only can decide law. Many states have initiative and referendum options that give more power for people to control their legislatures.