Democratic Socialists, Do You Support the DSA?

[Procrustes Stretched]

Several people here on the board describe themselves as Democratic Socialists. But there's a bit of a shell game going on with the definition. Some of them want to downplay the socialism, or the democracy, or both. They call it "compassionate capitalism" or otherwise try to spin it as not much different than what we have now. But the Democratic Socialists of America aren't so bashful. They lay out clearly the kinds of changes they want to make, and they're quite radical.

Here's their platform: DSA Political Platform - Democratic Socialists of America (DSA)

I'm just wondering that those of you who call yourselves Democratic Socialists think about that platform. Does it represent your overall political views and goals? Do you think the DSA is a legitimate standard bearer for democratic socialism? Or is it just a poorly named organization?

What are the numbers? Of the DSA? How many ballots are they on?

 

[Lakhota]

All Americans are socialists - like it or not. Personally, I like American socialism. It makes my life much better - and easier.

75 Ways Socialism Has Improved America​

 

[LeroyDumonde]

All Americans are socialists - like it or not. Personally, I like American socialism. It makes my life much better - and easier.

75 Ways Socialism Has Improved America​

How are you defining socialist?

 

[dblack]

How are you defining socialist?

Good luck pinning them down on that one. They're definitely not using a standard dictionary.

 

[Lakhota]

How are you defining socialist?

Even most morons know that socialism comes in various forms and degrees.

 

[dblack]

Even most morons know that socialism comes in various forms and degrees.

Socialism is definition-fluid?

 

[dblack]

Socialism is definition-fluid?

For the record, I stick with the basic definition that shows up first in pretty much any search results. It usually goes something like - "a political philosophy advocating state ownership of the means of production."

Going by the article that Lakhota posted, they think socialism is anything and everyone government does.

Let the equivocation games begin!

 

[Grumblenuts]

For the record, I stick with the basic definition that shows up first in pretty much any search results. It usually goes something like - "a political philosophy advocating state ownership of the means of production."

Baloney.

noun

1. a political and economic theory of social organization which advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole.
   "we want a real democratic and pluralist left party—one which unites all those who believe in socialism"

 

[dblack]

Baloney.

I'll buy that. About the same as I what I said. And in no way supports the nonsense Lakhota posted.

 

[Grumblenuts]

What are the numbers? Of the DSA? How many ballots are they on?

Democratic Socialists of America

Ballotpedia: The Encyclopedia of American Politics

ballotpedia.org

 

[Grumblenuts]

I'll buy that.

Good.

About the same as I what I said. And in no way supports the nonsense Lakhota posted.

Nope. Socialism is not communism ("state ownership"). Lakhota has been quite reasonable. Like it or not, there's tons of gray between a capitalist economic system and a communist ("state owned") one. Socialism covers all of that gray area, including most of our system here in the U.S., while die hard capitalists ("billionaire ownership" or so-called free market Liberals, meaning modern, Trump supporting Republicans) and Communists populate the extreme Right and Left.

The thrust of Gruber’s capitalist extremism is the extent to which it causes him to dehumanise those around him. Even the people he works with are seen as expendable, and his ruthlessness extends to firing rockets at a vehicle that would never be able to reach him. The reason McClane is such an effective and compelling hero is that he represents the antithesis of Gruber’s ideology.

 

[dblack]

Good.

Nope. Socialism is not communism ("state ownership"). Lakhota has been quite reasonable. Like it or not, there's tons of gray between a capitalist economic system and a communist ("state owned") one. Socialism covers all of that gray area, including most of our system here in the U.S., while die hard capitalists ("billionaire ownership" or so-called free market Liberals, meaning modern, Trump supporting Republicans) and Communists populate the extreme Right and Left.

Oh, ok. I don't agree with you at all then. You guys are just trying to pretend that socialism doesn't mean any fucking thing. So you never really have to defend it. Whatever.

 

[Grumblenuts]

Oh, ok. I don't agree with you at all then. You guys are just trying to pretend that socialism doesn't mean any fucking thing. So you never really have to defend it. Whatever.

Nope, many flavors of socialism have evolved from antiquity. Example:

In Ancient Greece, while private property was an acknowledged part of society with the basic element of Greek economic and social life being the privately owned estate or oikos, it was still understood that the needs of the city or polis always came before those of the individual property owner and his family.[9] Ancient Greeks were also encouraged by their custom of koinonia to voluntarily share their wealth and property with other citizens, forgive the debts of debtors, serve in roles as public servants without pay, and participate in other pro-social actions.

 

[westwall]

Several people here on the board describe themselves as Democratic Socialists. But there's a bit of a shell game going on with the definition. Some of them want to downplay the socialism, or the democracy, or both. They call it "compassionate capitalism" or otherwise try to spin it as not much different than what we have now. But the Democratic Socialists of America aren't so bashful. They lay out clearly the kinds of changes they want to make, and they're quite radical.

Here's their platform: DSA Political Platform - Democratic Socialists of America (DSA)

I'm just wondering that those of you who call yourselves Democratic Socialists think about that platform. Does it represent your overall political views and goals? Do you think the DSA is a legitimate standard bearer for democratic socialism? Or is it just a poorly named organization?

FUUUUUUUUUUUUUCK NO!

 

[dblack]

Nope, many flavors of socialism have evolved from antiquity. Example:

Sure, sure, sure.... but why is it important to you that the definition of socialism to be so nebulous? I think there's a reason.

 

[badger2]

The platform provides lots of juicy bits to chew on, but the most disturbing, in my view, is a general statement that might seem harmless enough:


They want "all aspects of society" subject to majority rule. I guess under socialism, it just sucks to be in the minority.

Not buying it. Socialism becomes impossible precisely at the point that it takes away the meaning between necessary labor and surplus labor. (Hardt and Negri, Labor of Dionysus: A Critique of State Form)

 

[Tom Paine 1949]

Definitions of capitalism are also pretty varied, as are “real existing” capitalist states and societies. “Socialist policies” including “Social Security” were widely denounced at one time by Conservative organizations, and still are by some, for example:

Social Security is Socialism – The Future of Freedom Foundation

Many seniors today have convinced themselves that Social Security, the program that President Franklin Roosevelt’s administration foisted on the United States in the 1930s, is a retirement program, one in which they have “contributed” their money during their work lives. They have this quaint...

www.fff.org

It is certainly fair to ask a socialist what he or she believes. But one can also fairly ask a supporter of capitalism whether he supports, for example, American-style Wall Street “finance capitalism” or Russian-style mafia / crony capitalism, or even Chinese-style “state capitalism.”

Of corse for historical reason, in U.S. society “socialism” is a term that carries particularly negative connotations, and even “social democratic” and welfare state programs in general are often considered “ideologically suspect.”

 

[dblack]

Of corse for historical reason, in U.S. society “socialism” is a term that carries particularly negative connotations, and even “social democratic” and welfare state programs in general are often considered “ideologically suspect.”

And that's the real issue with the "definition shell game". Plenty of folks in the US do want socialism, but they don't want to admit it. They've seen too many cold war movies and think people will hate them if they admit they're socialists. It's a problem they solve by smearing the colors around until it's all a muddy brown. By pretending that everything government does is socialism.

It's just propaganda - a soft sell to foist something on people that they might otherwise reject.

 

[Grumblenuts]

Sure, sure, sure.... but why is it so important to you for the definition of socialism to be so nebulous? I think there's a reason.

Well.. then you're just wrong. Mine are likely no more nebulous than your own economic system preference(s?) which you have avoided discussing in detail for damn good reason. You know you're nuttier than I am and still trying to figure them (yourself) out.

 

[dblack]

Well.. then you're just wrong.

LOL - fair enough. It's happened before.

Mine are likely no more nebulous than your own economic system preference(s?) which you have avoided discussing in detail for damn good reason.

What have I avoided?? What would you like to know?

You know you're nuttier than I am and still trying to figure them (yourself) out.

Maybe. I suspect pretty much everyone wasting time here is nutty in some regard.