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Deuteronomy 13:6-11

Well....?

  • A metaphor

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • It was literal.

    Votes: 6 100.0%

  • Total voters
    6
The Death Penalty in Jewish Tradition | My Jewish Learning

The Torah prescribes death as punishment for a number of serious sins — among them murder, idol worship and desecrating the Sabbath — as well as several seemingly less serious ones, like serially disobeying one’s parents. In practice, however, death sentences were rarely carried out by Jewish courts.

A famous Mishnah passage states that a religious court that executed someone once in 70 years was considered destructive. That gap between principle and practice is often cited as evidence that Judaism is deeply uncomfortable with capital punishment, so much so that the rabbis of the Talmud erected significant legal bulwarks to make it exceedingly rare. Others argue that the Torah’s explicit judgment that certain crimes merit a sentence of death is irrefutable proof that capital punishment is consistent with Jewish tradition.

The Torah imposes a penalty of death for a range of misdeeds. These include ritual infractions, such as violating the Sabbath, worshiping idols and cursing God; sexual sins, including incest, adultery, anal sex between men and bestiality; and various criminal acts, including murder, kidnapping and giving false testimony in a capital case. In one particularly challenging biblical passage (Deuteronomy 18-21), the Torah imposes a penalty of death by stoning in the case of a “wayward son” who does not heed his parents’ discipline. (The Talmud states that there never actually was a wayward son nor will there ever be one and that the Torah mentions it merely so it should be studied.) 

Stoning is the most common method of execution described in the Torah, prescribed not only in the case of the rebellious child, but also for murder, blasphemy, breaking the Sabbath and idolatry. The Torah specifies that a person may be put to death only on the testimony of two witnesses — never by one alone — and that the witnesses who testified must be the first to lay their hands on the accused to kill him. Death by fire is mandated for a number of sexual sins, mainly various forms of incest.

The rabbis of the Talmud discussed the legal requirements of capital punishment at great length, establishing significant barriers that made such a sentence extremely difficult to carry out. According to the Mishnah, capital cases had to be decided by a Sanhedrin of 23 judges. If the conviction in a capital case was unanimous, the accused was acquitted. Perhaps most onerous of all, the offense had to be witnessed by two people who warned the perpetrator immediately prior to committing the act that it was a capital offense. 

Such stringencies are often understood to account for the famous Mishnah passage that states that if a Sanhedrin executed one person in seven years, it was considered destructive. Rabbi Elazar Ben Azariah objects that the standard is actually once in 70 years, and Rabbis Tarfon and Akivasay that had they served on the court, no one would have ever been executed.

However, some scholars, such as Rabbi Louis Jacobs in The Jewish Religion: A Companion,have noted that the power of Jewish courts to impose a death sentence was ended by the Romans sometime in the first century of the Common Era, and as a result the Talmudic discussions of the matter, including their imposition of stringent rules of evidence in capital cases, should be understood as purely theoretical — not as practical guidance for how such cases should actually be adjudicated. Jacobs also pointed to passages in the Talmud and elsewhere that permit extrajudicial execution in certain circumstances as evidence that Jewish law is not as uncomfortable with the death penalty as is sometimes said to be the case.

Maimonides writes in the Mishneh Torah that in a case where someone commits murder but cannot be convicted on account of some technicality, the killer is to be fed bread and water until he aches and then fed barley until his stomach ruptures. A similar punishment is prescribed by the Talmud for repeat offenders. Elsewhere, Maimonides writes that a king may execute a killer even without clear proof or a warning for the sake of public order, and may even leave their bodies hanging for days to instill fear in the hearts of the wicked. The Talmud endorses a similar position, saying that in certain extreme circumstances courts may impose a death penalty even if the standard legal requirements are not met. The Shulchan Aruch later codified that ruling, saying that punishments of death could be imposed without clear testimony at times of rampant sinfulness.

Furthering this line of thought is the fact that the Talmud discusses in detail the various types of executions, which some take as evidence that the mechanics of carrying out a death sentence were of more than theoretical concern. Four methods of execution are discussed in the Talmud: stoning, burning, beheading and strangulation.
 
Flesh is merely a pattern of spiritual things. I suppose if you cannot see that then it is not time for you to be able to see that. If stoning was actually known to be wrong universally there would not be people still being stoned to death in shithole countries today.

Galatians 5:14-19

For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”



But if you bite and devour one another, beware lest you be consumed by one another!

I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh.


For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish.



But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.


Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness......
 
Flesh is merely a pattern of spiritual things. I suppose if you cannot see that then it is not time for you to be able to see that. If stoning was actually known to be wrong universally there would not be people still being stoned to death in shithole countries today.

Galatians 5:14-19

For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”



But if you bite and devour one another, beware lest you be consumed by one another!

I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh.


For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish.



But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.


Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness......
Are you saying that people do not violate morals? That's really weird!

That people do something negates that it's right or wrong?

That's really weird!

Stoning adulterers is Universally wrong.
 
I love these discussions because people can’t have it both ways. They can’t take a moral stand without acknowledging that morals are more than mere opinions.
 
I love these discussions because people can’t have it both ways. They can’t take a moral stand without acknowledging that morals are more than mere opinions.
I like that you feel free to tell people what they believe, and then pretend you're not some ass-hole seeking conflict on the internet!
 
To be stoned Biblically is to receive a measure of justice that is applied by and within one's own spirit, body, etc. i.e. Exodus 17:4 And Moses cried unto the LORD, saying, What shall I do unto this people? they be almost ready to stone me.

Stone -Scale.PNG
 
To be stoned Biblically is to receive a measure of justice that is applied by and within one's own spirit, body, etc. i.e. Exodus 17:4 And Moses cried unto the LORD, saying, What shall I do unto this people? they be almost ready to stone me.

View attachment 282389
There's recorded history, so if you're going to try to scapegoat the stonings as mere allegory of something that wasnt a physical/literal stoning, you're going to fail unfortunately.
 
Flesh is merely a pattern of spiritual things. I suppose if you cannot see that then it is not time for you to be able to see that. If stoning was actually known to be wrong universally there would not be people still being stoned to death in shithole countries today.

Galatians 5:14-19

For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”



But if you bite and devour one another, beware lest you be consumed by one another!

I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh.


For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish.



But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.


Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness......
Are you saying that people do not violate morals? That's really weird!

That people do something negates that it's right or wrong?

That's really weird!

Stoning adulterers is Universally wrong.
If everyone knew it is universally wrong to literally stone people to death it wouldn't still be happening now would it? Are you in denial that people in shithole countries do not still actually stone people to death?
 
Is Deuteronomy 13:6-11 literal or is it a metaphor?

None of us actually know because none of us lived in ancient Israel but I suspect it is literal. Thousands of years later we still have residual behaviors of Jewish people that refuse to go see their friend's kid baptized or to go watch a hillarious play performed by a church or to even go to a friend's birthday party hosted at a church. There are even Hadisdic Jews in New York that are more extreme than that.

I suspect this was literal but I further assume the executions were rare. It probably disincentivized people enough from corrupting their culture. For their culture to survive diaspora tells me that this Old Testament mess wasn't a joke to them like Christianity is a joke to Christians.

The question remains.

Is Deuteronomy 13:6-11 literal or is it a metaphor?
Why does it matter
 
To be stoned Biblically is to receive a measure of justice that is applied by and within one's own spirit, body, etc. i.e. Exodus 17:4 And Moses cried unto the LORD, saying, What shall I do unto this people? they be almost ready to stone me.

View attachment 282389
There's recorded history, so if you're going to try to scapegoat the stonings as mere allegory of something that wasnt a physical/literal stoning, you're going to fail unfortunately.
I did not say it does not happen. I say the same thing Jesus Christ taught about which is walk to the Spirit. If one is walking (aka thinking) to the spirit they would know that physically injuring another human is wrong.
 
Flesh is merely a pattern of spiritual things. I suppose if you cannot see that then it is not time for you to be able to see that. If stoning was actually known to be wrong universally there would not be people still being stoned to death in shithole countries today.

Galatians 5:14-19

For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”



But if you bite and devour one another, beware lest you be consumed by one another!

I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh.


For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish.



But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.


Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness......
Are you saying that people do not violate morals? That's really weird!

That people do something negates that it's right or wrong?

That's really weird!

Stoning adulterers is Universally wrong.
If everyone knew it is universally wrong to literally stone people to death it wouldn't still be happening now would it? Are you in denial that people in shithole countries do not still actually stone people to death?
I'm saying that when someone acts immorally, it doesn't make it moral. So the fact that people do it, in other words, does not make it moral.
 
Flesh is merely a pattern of spiritual things. I suppose if you cannot see that then it is not time for you to be able to see that. If stoning was actually known to be wrong universally there would not be people still being stoned to death in shithole countries today.

Galatians 5:14-19

For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”



But if you bite and devour one another, beware lest you be consumed by one another!

I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh.


For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish.



But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.


Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness......
Are you saying that people do not violate morals? That's really weird!

That people do something negates that it's right or wrong?

That's really weird!

Stoning adulterers is Universally wrong.
If everyone knew it is universally wrong to literally stone people to death it wouldn't still be happening now would it? Are you in denial that people in shithole countries do not still actually stone people to death?
I'm saying that when someone acts immorally, it doesn't make it moral. So the fact that people do it, in other words, does not make it moral.
Earthly minded humans all seem to have different concepts of what is moral.
 
To be stoned Biblically is to receive a measure of justice that is applied by and within one's own spirit, body, etc. i.e. Exodus 17:4 And Moses cried unto the LORD, saying, What shall I do unto this people? they be almost ready to stone me.

View attachment 282389
There's recorded history, so if you're going to try to scapegoat the stonings as mere allegory of something that wasnt a physical/literal stoning, you're going to fail unfortunately.
I did not say it does not happen. I say the same thing Jesus Christ taught about which is walk to the Spirit. If one is walking (aka thinking) to the spirit they would know that physically injuring another human is wrong.
The old testament begged to differ with hay zeus, though. That is, and has been the point.
 
Flesh is merely a pattern of spiritual things. I suppose if you cannot see that then it is not time for you to be able to see that. If stoning was actually known to be wrong universally there would not be people still being stoned to death in shithole countries today.

Galatians 5:14-19

For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”



But if you bite and devour one another, beware lest you be consumed by one another!

I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh.


For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish.



But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.


Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness......
Are you saying that people do not violate morals? That's really weird!

That people do something negates that it's right or wrong?

That's really weird!

Stoning adulterers is Universally wrong.
If everyone knew it is universally wrong to literally stone people to death it wouldn't still be happening now would it? Are you in denial that people in shithole countries do not still actually stone people to death?
I'm saying that when someone acts immorally, it doesn't make it moral. So the fact that people do it, in other words, does not make it moral.
Earthly minded humans all seem to have different concepts of what is moral.
Well, since morals are conceptual - that would seem to make sense because some people are smarter than others.
 
I love these discussions because people can’t have it both ways. They can’t take a moral stand without acknowledging that morals are more than mere opinions.
I like that you feel free to tell people what they believe, and then pretend you're not some ass-hole seeking conflict on the internet!
I never claimed to be a saint or that I am behaving morally, GT.

You accuse others of what you do.
 
I love these discussions because people can’t have it both ways. They can’t take a moral stand without acknowledging that morals are more than mere opinions.
I like that you feel free to tell people what they believe, and then pretend you're not some ass-hole seeking conflict on the internet!
I never claimed to be a saint or that I am behaving morally, GT.

You accuse others of what you do.
Sureeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee do, whatever helps your conflict and confusion process.
 
Flesh is merely a pattern of spiritual things. I suppose if you cannot see that then it is not time for you to be able to see that. If stoning was actually known to be wrong universally there would not be people still being stoned to death in shithole countries today.

Galatians 5:14-19

For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”



But if you bite and devour one another, beware lest you be consumed by one another!

I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh.


For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish.



But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.


Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness......
Are you saying that people do not violate morals? That's really weird!

That people do something negates that it's right or wrong?

That's really weird!

Stoning adulterers is Universally wrong.
If everyone knew it is universally wrong to literally stone people to death it wouldn't still be happening now would it? Are you in denial that people in shithole countries do not still actually stone people to death?
I'm saying that when someone acts immorally, it doesn't make it moral. So the fact that people do it, in other words, does not make it moral.
Earthly minded humans all seem to have different concepts of what is moral.
Well, since morals are conceptual - that would seem to make sense because some people are smarter than others.
I agree some people do have more intelligence than others. Some have more common sense too; just like some are more spiritual connected than others. Various gifts are given even in the Kingdom of Heaven.
 

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