Did FDR know something was about to happen in late 1941?

[AZrailwhale]

Which in looking is actually rather stupid to even assume they would be there. We actually had no carriers based in Hawaii, they were all based in the US mainland. Hawaii was designated as our forward Battleship base.

And for months all of our carriers were almost constantly at sea, moving aircraft to our forward bases. The USS Langley was off the Philippines, being our oldest carrier she was assigned to the Manilla Fleet.

The USS Lexington was enroute to Midway with a load of Vindicator dive bombers.

The USS Enterprise was returning to Hawaii after delivering a Marine Fighter Squadron of F4F wildcats to Wake.

The USS Saratoga was just pulling into San Diego after undergoing an upgrade program that took over 8 months.

Any expectations that the Japanese expected to find our carriers at Hawaii is actually rather foolish. As the Japanese knew that none of our carriers were actually based there, and they were at sea almost all the time doing their main peacetime mission of ferrying fighters to forward bases. Out of our 4 Pacific Carriers, only one of them was not stationed on the West Coast. And that was the USS Langley, the oldest and smallest carrier in the fleet.

And point of fact, by that time the Langley was not even an "aircraft carrier" anymore. Back in 1939 she had actually been converted to a seaplane tender, and the designation was changed from CV-1 to AV-3. She did not even have any fighters assigned to her at the time, and had to sail to Australia to pick up a load of P-40 Warhawks after the war broke out. Those were not even Navy fighters, it was a mission to deliver the Army Air Corps planes to Java. It was during that mission that the ship was attacked and sunk, but the aircraft could not even have been used for several reasons. Mostly, none of the pilots knew how to land on a carrier as they were not carrier pilots. The aircraft had been loaded with a crane. And the aircraft had no tailhooks, so if they had taken off to try and engage the Japanese that attacked the ship they could never have landed on the ship.

The Japanese hoped they might find one carrier at best at Hawaii, but never expected there to be more than one there. They knew damned well we only had three in the Pacific, and generally where each one of them was located. And that none of our three Pacific carriers were actually based in Hawaii.

The forward half of Langley's flight deck had also been removed when she was converted to a seaplane tender. It was impossible to land or take off from her in a wheeled aircraft.

 

[DudleySmith]

The U.S. effectively prodded Japan into a war,

Yo really think they needed 'prodding'? They were on roll conquering Asia, and sooner or later they needed to attack the western powers. Like Hitler, they thought we were weak and an easy mark. They clearly saw how FDR was being stymied by both the GOP and the anti-Roosevelt Democrats. Being dictatorships, they under-estimated popular influence in American politics, and how quickly things could change on dime here. They never considered popular opinion as a determinant. PEarl had the exact opposite effect on American politics they were hoping for, same with the U boats campaigns Hitler demanded, despite the evidence of its abject failure in WW I in scaring off the U.S.

 

[DudleySmith]

Investors Throw Money at an Activity and Think They Own It

The corpie bandits are so incompetent that they can't get rich if they have to pay decent wages. FDR opposed that, so, as usual on the Netrix, this thread is infused with ulterior motives.

Yes, I agree the FDR bashing is just cult raving and mostly dishonest. Some of this stuff is just loony tunes revisionism.

 

[LA RAM FAN]

The forward half of Langley's flight deck had also been removed when she was converted to a seaplane tender. It was impossible to land or take off from her in a wheeled aircraft.

Dude this troll Works fir Langley,you don’t think he knows that?

 

[LA RAM FAN]

He should have known....He was, after all, supplying the Brits with war material on the down-low, and had deployed mercenary fighter pilots (AVG) in China, to do battle with the Japanese air force, well before 7 Dec '41.

He provoked the U.S entry into WWII, and knew he was doing so.

Me ou,stryder and luiza are the only posters on here who seem to be aware of thst fact Oddball . The rest of everybody else on here needs to read the excellent documentary book day of deceit.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

Did FDR Bait the Japanese to Attack Pearl Harbor to Arouse USA Isolationists to Enter World War II?

In 2021, U.S. Navy veteran Douglas P. Horne published a masterfully researched book, The McCollum Memorandum: a Story of Washington, D.C., in 1940-41, that takes a microscope to the available historical facts in the lead-up to Pearl Harbor and conclu...

www.americanthinker.com

I was never convinced that FDR let Pearl Harbor happen on purpose. Back then the US had little intelligence abilities. Most felt war was coming at some point was just a matter of when and how. However this McCollumn memo does raise some questions. Whether FDR actually seen this memo seems to be an open question, others did and nothing seems to have been done about it.

FDR worst President in the 20th Century and second to Biden in the Worst POTUS ever

 

[whitehall]

It's no secret that the Japanese were viewed by the racist FDR administration as little yellow monkeys who were incapable of making a plane that could fly or a ship that could float. The Brits were shocked that there was no central intelligence agency in the FDR administration and FDR relied on a hodge podge of "reports" from Naval intel. FDR was desperate for Americans to go along with his plan for the "real war" in Europe and Pearl Harbor was his chance. As usual he underestimated the Japanese navy but we were finally in the shit when Germany declared war on the U.S. shortly after Pearl Harbor. The criminal conspiracy in the FDR administration sacrificed the lives of 3,000 American Sailors and Marines to get into the real war in Europe.

 

[Mushroom]

From what I have read, the U.S. had a dim view of Japan's military capability

Oh, that is far from the truth. That may have been the view of most civilians, but to be honest most civilians are pretty retarded when it comes to military matters.

The US military had already been dealing with the Japanese military for almost half a century by then. They were a major part of the relief effort for the Consulates during the Boxer Rebellion. And of course their Navy was closely tied to that of the UK and won a smashing defeat of Russia in 1905. And the US military was watching them gobble up huge chunks of China with a vastly outnumbered military.

The military was all to well aware of the Japanese capabilities, and they had some of the best ships and fighters in the world at the start of WWII.

 

[Mushroom]

FDR sent the aircraft carriers to stalk the Japanese fleet on its way to invade Indonesia and take the oil there.

Uh, wrong. I already stated quite clearly where each of the carriers were. And they were nowhere near the Japanese fleet.

Our oldest "carrier" which was not even a carrier anymore was anchored at the Phillipnes.

Another was on the way to Hawaii after delivering fighters to Wake.

Next we had one enroute to Midway to deliver fighters.

The final carrier was off the coast of San Diego, having finished a 9 month upgrade in Washington and was conducting sea trials before being put back into service.

What you said was in no way true, as we had not a single carrier even close to that area of the Pacific.

 

[Mushroom]

It is interesting to wonder what Japan would have been like if they had spent the immense fortune they did on arms in order to improve Japan internally and its production capacity for exportation and international trade.

Not really possible. However, that was actually what their end war goal was.

Japan had a lot going for it, but what it mostly lacked was raw resources. Primarily wood, coal, iron, rubber, and oil. That is why it was trying to gobble up an empire, so it could exploit those areas for the raw materials to aid in their industrialization.

 

[Mushroom]

I think they thought it would be the Philippines AFTER they had attacked the British and the Dutch in Singapore and Indonesia.

No, they knew it would be at the same time.

Remember, for any Japanese offensive to succeed in the South, they had to at least neutralize and bottle up the Philippines. That was sitting right in the middle of their supply line to Indonesia and other areas, and they could not afford to leave the US in possession with it. Because if they had gone after the Dutch East Indies and/or UK and left the US alone, we could have then entered the war and cut them in two.

Japan never really wanted to fight the US. But they had to take the Dutch East Indies, and the US occupied a critical location on their supply lines if they did so. And the Philippines were in the process of a major buildup of men and material in December 1941. If they had delayed even another 4 months they might have found it impossible to take without great cost as the US was starting to pump stuff there as fast as they could.

 

[Mushroom]

It's no secret that the Japanese were viewed by the racist FDR administration as little yellow monkeys who were incapable of making a plane that could fly or a ship that could float.

Sorry, I am going to call complete and utter bullshit on this one.

FDR had spent 7 years as the Assistant Secretary of the Navy, from 1913 to 1920. That would have been less than a decade after the Battle of Tsushima, where the Japanese fleet utterly destroyed the Russian Fleet. And where his cousin became the first American to win the Nobel Peace Prize for helping both sides come to a peace treaty.

He was the Assistant Secretary of the navy when the Japanese launched the Kongo, hunted down the German Asiatic Squadron in WWI in addition to seizing Micronesia from Germany. Then watched as during the inter-war years they were one of the leading nations involved in both aircraft carriers as well as large armored cruisers and battleships. And he was President when Japan walked out of the League of Nations, primarily over the restrictions placed up on them for the number of size of the ships in their Navy.

Anybody is an absolute idiot if they think the President was not aware of that. Especially as he had already spent years as the Assistant Secretary of the Navy.

 

[Mushroom]

The forward half of Langley's flight deck had also been removed when she was converted to a seaplane tender. It was impossible to land or take off from her in a wheeled aircraft.

Oh, they could take off depending on the aircraft. The intent for the P-40s on board when she was scuttled was to take off from the deck once they arrived in Java. And the P-40 was a fairly agile aircraft, needing only around 75 feet to take off. From the elevation of the deck it would have had no problem flying from the deck. However, they could never have landed there.

Even after the refit, her flight deck was still almost 100 meters long. More than enough room for most fighters of that era to get airborne. However, not while under steam as that would have made taking off almost impossible. The ship would have to come to an almost complete stop as the aircraft would have been flying off the stern of the ship.

 

[g5000]

Did FDR Bait the Japanese to Attack Pearl Harbor to Arouse USA Isolationists to Enter World War II?

In 2021, U.S. Navy veteran Douglas P. Horne published a masterfully researched book, The McCollum Memorandum: a Story of Washington, D.C., in 1940-41, that takes a microscope to the available historical facts in the lead-up to Pearl Harbor and conclu...

www.americanthinker.com

I was never convinced that FDR let Pearl Harbor happen on purpose. Back then the US had little intelligence abilities. Most felt war was coming at some point was just a matter of when and how. However this McCollumn memo does raise some questions. Whether FDR actually seen this memo seems to be an open question, others did and nothing seems to have been done about it.

You can be sure that 99.99999 percent of anything you read on American "Thinker" (oh, the irony!) is complete bullshit.

 

[martybegan]

No, they knew it would be at the same time.

Remember, for any Japanese offensive to succeed in the South, they had to at least neutralize and bottle up the Philippines. That was sitting right in the middle of their supply line to Indonesia and other areas, and they could not afford to leave the US in possession with it. Because if they had gone after the Dutch East Indies and/or UK and left the US alone, we could have then entered the war and cut them in two.

Japan never really wanted to fight the US. But they had to take the Dutch East Indies, and the US occupied a critical location on their supply lines if they did so. And the Philippines were in the process of a major buildup of men and material in December 1941. If they had delayed even another 4 months they might have found it impossible to take without great cost as the US was starting to pump stuff there as fast as they could.

Seeing how fast the Philippines fell, it wasn't much of a threat.

 

[AZrailwhale]

Oh, that is far from the truth. That may have been the view of most civilians, but to be honest most civilians are pretty retarded when it comes to military matters.

The US military had already been dealing with the Japanese military for almost half a century by then. They were a major part of the relief effort for the Consulates during the Boxer Rebellion. And of course their Navy was closely tied to that of the UK and won a smashing defeat of Russia in 1905. And the US military was watching them gobble up huge chunks of China with a vastly outnumbered military.

The military was all to well aware of the Japanese capabilities, and they had some of the best ships and fighters in the world at the start of WWII.

Wrong. The capabilities of the Zero were not known by the military. Claire Chennault tried to warn the Army Air Corps brass and they wouldn't listen to him. No one understood the range advantage the Japanese navy fighters and bombers had over allied aircraft. The western brass all viewed the continual failures of the Japanese to beat the Chinese as a mark of how bad their military was. The Japanese had a WWI style army with WWI style equipment and tactics. The Navy was optimized for a single climactic battle like Tsushima, not a mobile war like they stumbled into. The IJN lacked the tankers and support ships to support their forces and used what they had poorly.

 

[AZrailwhale]

Seeing how fast the Philippines fell, it wasn't much of a threat.

The Philippines fell so quickly because Macarther was a horrible general. He panicked when the Pearl Harbor attack happened, let his air force get caught on the ground, forbade his air force commander from attacking the Japanese air bases on Taiwan with his B-17s which would have caught the Japanese strike force on the ground socked in by fog allowing them to be destroyed. He neglected to conform to his own pre-war plans and failed to move vast amounts of supplies to the Bataan Peninsula or destroy them leaving them for the Japanese to use against him. He didn't do a single thing right in the defense of the Philippines, and then deserted his troops to flee to Australia.

 

[Mushroom]

Seeing how fast the Philippines fell, it wasn't much of a threat.

They were still building up the forces there.

In November the Naval and Marine forces (4th Marines) were withdrawn from China and moved to the Philippines, and they had just started laying mine fields. Their fleet there had a single Heavy Cruiser 1 Light Cruiser, and 13 Destroyers. There were also 4 Seaplane Tenders there, and there were plans for Bogue and Sangamon class escort carriers to be assigned to the fleet as they became available.

But even more important was the buildup already underway of the Army Air Corps. They had 25 B-17s there on 7 December, but by March that number was expected to exceed 165 heavy bombers. And the 50 fighters would have been expanded to over 300 fighters. I am sure everybody knows the story of the B-17 crew that was in the air when Pearl Harbor was attacked, and they could do nothing because they had no ammunition. Well, those bombers were not going to Hawaii, they were only going there to rest and refuel, those bombers were actually going to the Philippines.

And bases were still being built for them, but as soon as those were completed and the personnel trained an additional 2 Divisions were to be sent there by March, an additional 5 Divisions by late 1942.

The build-up literally started in November 1941, it had just started when the Japanese attacked.

 

[Mushroom]

The capabilities of the Zero were not known by the military.

Full capabilities, no. But they still knew it was a formidable fighter, as was the A5M which came before it.

They had a hell of a lot of data on the A5M "Claude", as they had been using them against the Chinese since 1937. And the Claude was dominating the battles between it and the US made P-26 that China was using. The only plane that China had that even came close to the Claude was the Soviet I-16.

The capabilities of the Claude were well known, and the US even had people on the ground inspect crashed examples so they knew damned well what it was capable of. In the early days of the war the US did not even realize that the A6M was a different aircraft. They thought it was simply an upgraded A5M.

Why you insist the military and government were all racist, I have absolutely no idea. The Japanese military was actually a very professional and modern organization by that time, and everybody in the military knew that. As did the government, as they had been involved in trying to hold them off in China for years.

 

[there4eyeM]

It is no attack on anyone nor any endorsement of any ideology to observe that Japan had the most powerful navy in the world and had only as a very distantly possible challenger concentrated in one place.
Likewise, the nature of the Empire was to impose a superior people's will on a subjugated horde.
What resulted was totally predictable.