Did FDR know something was about to happen in late 1941?

[eagle7-31]

Anything intelligent LOL?

If I get anything intelligent I will respond in kind. I get hyperbole you get it right back.

 

[francoHFW]

He should have known....He was, after all, supplying the Brits with war material on the down-low, and had deployed mercenary fighter pilots (AVG) in China, to do battle with the Japanese air force, well before 7 Dec '41.

He provoked the U.S entry into WWII, and knew he was doing so.

It's just the kind of wacky militarists that GOP economic disasters cause.... And then Hitler declared war on us LOL aarghhh....

 

[eagle7-31]

I think they were just doing maneuvers a little south of Pearl Harbor and Oahu. Very lucky!

Could be as well.

 

[francoHFW]

If I get anything intelligent I will respond in kind. I get hyperbole you get it right back.

No hyperbole.

 

[francoHFW]

Could be as well.

It was in that recent Midway movie. They sent planes after the Japanese but they went straight West not North....

 

[francoHFW]

ZEIG HEIL BIDEN!

No hyperbole. Corporate media always goes easy on the GOP. And that is basically all media. They like the low taxes. On THEM!

 

[eagle7-31]

No hyperbole. Corporate media always goes easy on the GOP. And that is basically all media. They like the low taxes. On THEM!

Since when? Most of the so called media are pro Democrat like the networks, NY times Wash Post etc.

 

[francoHFW]

Since when? Most of the so called media are pro Democrat like the networks, NY times Wash Post etc.

well they are not absolutely crazy big money big oil Murdoch BS, Super Duper. Don't report imaginary BS like election fraud and global warming fraud and all the other ridiculous conservative conspiracy theories you believe. Murdoch should be thrown out of the country just like he was in Australia and UK.

 

[DudleySmith]

FDR appointed George Marshall as COS over many more senior officers. Marshall never had a combat command and his legacy in the Army was lack luster. Why did FDR pick him at the crucial time in history? Marshall was one of the few who had access to the Japanese decoded "magic" transmissions and he was credited with a near photographic memory. He was uncharacteristically late for work on the morning of 12/7/41 and in subsequent congressional hearings he claimed that he couldn't remember where he was the night before the "Day of Infamy". When he finally arrived at his office he read and reread and re-reread the crucial message that indicated a Japanese attack. Finally the Army message center went down and Marshall sent a Western Union telegram that arrived at the same time as the Japanese bombers.

lol all that incompetence, and yet he still won a war? How could that happen? Just dumb luck, I guess.

 

[DudleySmith]

I think they were just doing maneuvers a little south of Pearl Harbor and Oahu. Very lucky!

No, they were doing what the Navy does routinely, ferrying stuff around on the oceans. Carriers ferry planes along with a lot of other stuff. The Japanese just had poor intelligence due to not wanting to tip their hand beforehand. That's what the 'surprise' in 'Surprise attack' means, for the intellectually challenged here. Flying recon aircraft all over the place and stalking ships is sort of easy to spot out on an ocean, and radio silence means subs were no use either for recon.

 

[there4eyeM]

Japan had the most carriers and the biggest battleships the world had ever seen. They had a history of sudden, unannounced attack. The only opposing naval concentration of any significance in the Pacific was at Pearl Harbor. Anyone with eyes and the slightest understanding of military operations would have to be aware of the consequences of such a situation. The IJN was all dressed up and had nowhere (else) to go. They had a very solid understanding of contemporary naval warfare and were, thus, profoundly disappointed that the U.S. carriers did not number among the vessels sitting on the bottom at Pearl.
That does not mean that there was a 'plot' to let Americans die or a trick to fool the Japanese into making a mistake and it does not exclude the possibility, either. It is merely a fact that it is impossible to refute or disagree with.

 

[DudleySmith]

Japan had the most carriers and the biggest battleships the world had ever seen. They had a history of sudden, unannounced attack. The only opposing naval concentration of any significance in the Pacific was at Pearl Harbor. Anyone with eyes and the slightest understanding of military operations would have to be aware of the consequences of such a situation. The IJN was all dressed up and had nowhere (else) to go. They had a very solid understanding of contemporary naval warfare and were, thus, profoundly disappointed that the U.S. carriers did not number among the vessels sitting on the bottom at Pearl.
That does not mean that there was a 'plot' to let Americans die or a trick to fool the Japanese into making a mistake and it does not exclude the possibility, either. It is merely a fact that it is impossible to refute or disagree with.

There was some negligence on the part of those in charge of security at Pearl as well that made the attack more damaging.

A big mistake on the part of the Japanese was not taking out Pearl's fuel storage facilities, which is stunningly stupid. That alone would have been a primary target, yet they ignored it entirely.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwiUj7WXmMCAAxUSl2oFHTG7BvgQFnoECBsQAQ&url=http%3A%2F%2Flcweb2.loc.gov%2Fmaster%2Fpnp%2Fhabshaer%2Fhi%2Fhi0600%2Fhi0642%2Fdata%2Fhi0642data.pdf&usg=AOvVaw3R9EozMb-_osEk2xAafgHq&opi=89978449

About Red Hill

This link has links to Sanborn Fire Insurance maps from 1942 of the facilities.

U.S. Naval Base, Pearl Harbor, Bulk Fuel Storage Tank Type, Middle Tank Farm, south of North Road between Merry & Quarry Lochs, Pearl City, Honolulu County, HI

Photo(s): 5 | Data Page(s): 5 | Photo Caption Page(s): 3

www.loc.gov

I guess that could be called 'luck', but I would call it arrogant incompetence.

 

[Mushroom]

Most felt war was coming at some point was just a matter of when and how.

Japan had started planning to attack the US at the very start of 1941. That was long before the oil embargo or the freezing of assets. War was coming, and everybody knew it. That is even why the draft was enacted back in September 1940.

The only surprise about the attack was that the first blows were in Hawaii. Almost all planners expected it to be in the Philippines, which was their real target.

Japan was intent on attacking the Dutch East Indies, and was not about to try that with the US and UK strong in the region.

 

[Mushroom]

They had a very solid understanding of contemporary naval warfare and were, thus, profoundly disappointed that the U.S. carriers did not number among the vessels sitting on the bottom at Pearl.

Which in looking is actually rather stupid to even assume they would be there. We actually had no carriers based in Hawaii, they were all based in the US mainland. Hawaii was designated as our forward Battleship base.

And for months all of our carriers were almost constantly at sea, moving aircraft to our forward bases. The USS Langley was off the Philippines, being our oldest carrier she was assigned to the Manilla Fleet.

The USS Lexington was enroute to Midway with a load of Vindicator dive bombers.

The USS Enterprise was returning to Hawaii after delivering a Marine Fighter Squadron of F4F wildcats to Wake.

The USS Saratoga was just pulling into San Diego after undergoing an upgrade program that took over 8 months.

Any expectations that the Japanese expected to find our carriers at Hawaii is actually rather foolish. As the Japanese knew that none of our carriers were actually based there, and they were at sea almost all the time doing their main peacetime mission of ferrying fighters to forward bases. Out of our 4 Pacific Carriers, only one of them was not stationed on the West Coast. And that was the USS Langley, the oldest and smallest carrier in the fleet.

And point of fact, by that time the Langley was not even an "aircraft carrier" anymore. Back in 1939 she had actually been converted to a seaplane tender, and the designation was changed from CV-1 to AV-3. She did not even have any fighters assigned to her at the time, and had to sail to Australia to pick up a load of P-40 Warhawks after the war broke out. Those were not even Navy fighters, it was a mission to deliver the Army Air Corps planes to Java. It was during that mission that the ship was attacked and sunk, but the aircraft could not even have been used for several reasons. Mostly, none of the pilots knew how to land on a carrier as they were not carrier pilots. The aircraft had been loaded with a crane. And the aircraft had no tailhooks, so if they had taken off to try and engage the Japanese that attacked the ship they could never have landed on the ship.

The Japanese hoped they might find one carrier at best at Hawaii, but never expected there to be more than one there. They knew damned well we only had three in the Pacific, and generally where each one of them was located. And that none of our three Pacific carriers were actually based in Hawaii.

 

[francoHFW]

No, they were doing what the Navy does routinely, ferrying stuff around on the oceans. Carriers ferry planes along with a lot of other stuff. The Japanese just had poor intelligence due to not wanting to tip their hand beforehand. That's what the 'surprise' in 'Surprise attack' means, for the intellectually challenged here. Flying recon aircraft all over the place and stalking ships is sort of easy to spot out on an ocean, and radio silence means subs were no use either for recon.

all true, but they were also very lucky to be out of pearl that day. The French, for whom everything went absolutely wrong LOL and only army to fight anyone high on Bennies without Bennies themselves. To start with the Brits and the Americans have these wonderful moats so they don't have to worry about having a real army and that is an advantage that gave them the world's lead for 400 years so far (People without moats, everyone else, think they are the most obnoxious people anywhere),.. The Germans decided not to bomb radar and airplane factories and air bases and went after London. Midway was lucky it just goes on and on. Vive la France! LOL. English speakers are also the only people in the modern world who don't know what a socialist is, and the incredible difference between socialism and communism, democracy for crying out loud. Our savage capitalist Giveaway to the rich leaders A R R G H H. Anyone on the continent would also say they are bad people to have as allies, because they can only help in land battles after about a three year wait...

 

[jwoodie]

From what I have read, the U.S. had a dim view of Japan's military capability and did not take that into account when imposing its economic sanctions to force Japan into withdrawing from China. When that didn't work, the U.S. moved its Pacific fleet to Hawaii in order to counter any further Japanese aggression. The expectation was that Japan might attack the Philippines or other targets in the western Pacific, but that Hawaii was outside the Japanese navy's operational radius. As a result, the U.S. fleet had been gathered together in Pearl Harbor in order to have a quick strike counter force available to respond to a Japanese attack within that radius. The U.S. effectively prodded Japan into a war, but I haven't seen any evidence that Pearl Harbor was deliberately undefended to precipitate its attack.

 

[The Sage of Main Street]

That could be the case. No question FDR wanted the US in the war. I am not totally sold he knew Pearl Harbor was going to be attacked 12-7-1941 though the memo outlined in my op/ed piece does raise some questions.

No Links Are Reliable Sources

FDR sent the aircraft carriers to stalk the Japanese fleet on its way to invade Indonesia and take the oil there. He didn't expect an unprovoked attack on Pearl Harbor. He had also baited the German fleet in the Atlantic, but Hitler wouldn't fall for it.

Ironically, our rulers wouldn't have had any reason for provoking China the same way these last 70 years if they had let Japan buy our oil, which would have also helped our economy.

 

[there4eyeM]

It is interesting to wonder what Japan would have been like if they had spent the immense fortune they did on arms in order to improve Japan internally and its production capacity for exportation and international trade. Instead, they followed a lunatic militarist tradition into perdition. They are only lucky to have finally lost to an adversary wise enough to resurrect them after totally annihilating them on their own military terms.

 

[martybegan]

Japan had started planning to attack the US at the very start of 1941. That was long before the oil embargo or the freezing of assets. War was coming, and everybody knew it. That is even why the draft was enacted back in September 1940.

The only surprise about the attack was that the first blows were in Hawaii. Almost all planners expected it to be in the Philippines, which was their real target.

Japan was intent on attacking the Dutch East Indies, and was not about to try that with the US and UK strong in the region.

I think they thought it would be the Philippines AFTER they had attacked the British and the Dutch in Singapore and Indonesia. The overall goal was the "Southern Resource Area" for oil and rubber, and other material supplies.

Remember to Japan the main theater of war for them, at least for their army, was China.

 

[The Sage of Main Street]

lol all that incompetence, and yet he still won a war? How could that happen? Just dumb luck, I guess.

Investors Throw Money at an Activity and Think They Own It

The corpie bandits are so incompetent that they can't get rich if they have to pay decent wages. FDR opposed that, so, as usual on the Netrix, this thread is infused with ulterior motives.