Did we really have to nuke Japan?

[gipper]

See my above post in regards to the terms you referenced.

And, again, the invasion was unnecessary, because the U.S. later gave the Japanese the one condition, retention of the Emperor, that they would have been adamant on in the first place.

He became a figurehead, which is not what they wanted. Starving Japan would have taken years to accomplish, invasion would have been necessary despite your attempts at historical revision.

You above posts do not counter the fact that the Japanese Army wanted several terms, none of which were acceptable to the US. The Bomb allowed the Emperor to force the army to accept surrender without invasion.

You seem to want it both ways in regards to the Emperor. If he became only a figurehead after the nukes, then that implies he was something more prior to the unconditional surrender. However, you also seem to claim the military was outside of his control. So did the Emperor only become a figurehead after the surrender, or was he a figurehead under Tōjō? Regardless, the source document I provided shows that Japan had no illusions of keeping any territory and that they sought peace. The U.S. ultimately allowed the Emperor to remain in power, and this proves that an invasion was unnecessary.

Your logic skips all sorts of steps, and relies on consensus in the Japanese Cabinet, which was non-existent. You also make the mistake of assuming a western mindset for a culture that is not western.

The Emperor was a figurehead under the Meji constitution, but one that had significant ceremonial power and bully power. The Military paid lip service to being beholden to the Emperor, but that was easy because tradition stated he rarely countered the decisions of the government, which was controlled by the military. The Bombs forced the Emperor, under the advice of the unconditional surrender faction, to accept the Potsdam declaration, and to make the Army follow his command. They were then placed in the position of refusing the emperor, something they had never had to do before, but something they found impossible to do.

Without the bombs, the Peace faction would have been unable to convince the Emperor to force the Army to give up, short of invasion.

So you say, and yet we have source documents showing that they certainly believed that they could.

Only if you ignore the mountains of other documents that concur with what I am saying. Just like conspiracy nutters, you have to focus in on an interpretation of s small set of sources, and ignore all others.

The only thing you have done to refute any of what I have types is "this document says otherwise", which isn't refuting at all.

The war was over in July 1945. Japan had no ability to wage war against the USA. We should have declared victory and went home. Had we not punished the Japanese people enough? Of course, the statists did not want that. They wanted to conquer and occupy.

The unconditional surrender requirement instituted by Stalin's Stooge, only prolonged the killing and destruction...which apparently was his intention...and the fool Truman followed his evil plan.

The wanton destruction of innocent women and children is always wrong. Sadly America has a long history of total war.

 

[kflaux]

Your logic skips all sorts of steps, and relies on consensus in the Japanese Cabinet, which was non-existent.

There was no complete consensus, true, but as with almost all political groups, there were factions and partial consensus.

The Emperor was a figurehead under the Meji constitution, but one that had significant ceremonial power and bully power. The Military paid lip service to being beholden to the Emperor, but that was easy because tradition stated he rarely countered the decisions of the government, which was controlled by the military.

Herbert Bix argues rather persuasively that Hirohito was rather more powerful than that.

Amazon.com Hirohito And The Making Of Modern Japan eBook Herbert P. Bix Kindle Store

The Bombs forced the Emperor, under the advice of the unconditional surrender faction, to accept the Potsdam declaration, and to make the Army follow his command.

None of us are privy to the thought processes of the Emperor at the time.

Without the bombs, the Peace faction would have been unable to convince the Emperor to force the Army to give up, short of invasion.

Pure speculation on your part.

Japan's relative position--it was beaten, had been for months--and the fact that the Russians were on the move in Manchuria both suggest that rather than a means of forcing surrender, which was assured in any case, Truman wanted a display of force to check Stalin, put him in his place.

Pity that hundreds of thousands of civilians had to die to achieve this end.

And, of course, the US remains the only country that has used nuclear weapons in aggression. Do you think that when nukes are used again (and they will be, sooner or later), this historical fact will not be mentioned?

 

[namvet]

I don't buy it.

They no longer had a navy or air force to project their armies.

A simple food and trade embargo would have sufficed (enforced by our unchallenged navy).

There was no reason to even attack the Japanese mainland.

I think it was a bunch of sick and demented fucks that wanted to demonstrate the power of their new toy to the communist USSR.

Admiral William Leahy – the highest ranking member of the U.S. military from 1942 until retiring in 1949, who was the first de facto Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, and who was at the center of all major American military decisions in World War II – wrote (pg. 441):

It is my opinion that the use of this barbarous weapon at Hiroshima and Nagasaki was of no material assistance in our war against Japan. The Japanese were already defeated and ready to surrender because of the effective sea blockade and the successful bombing with conventional weapons.

The lethal possibilities of atomic warfare in the future are frightening. My own feeling was that in being the first to use it, we had adopted an ethical standard common to the barbarians of the Dark Ages. I was not taught to make war in that fashion, and wars cannot be won by destroying women and children.

This country is being run by murderous sociopaths.

click - this is a recording

 

[namvet]

wonder who they were gonna use the bomb on??



morons

 

[saintmichaeldefendthem]

In the end a lot of Japanese, and a lot of Americans survived and lived out their lives. Perhaps the decision always lay in Hirohito's hands and after two bombs he told Japan to surrender and bingo the war was over. The real question: should the emperor have suggested surrender before the fire bombing and before the a bombs, instead of letting the military decide?

Or how about between atomic bombs one and two? He was given every opportunity to surrender but clearly didn't care about his people.

 

[namvet]

In the end a lot of Japanese, and a lot of Americans survived and lived out their lives. Perhaps the decision always lay in Hirohito's hands and after two bombs he told Japan to surrender and bingo the war was over. The real question: should the emperor have suggested surrender before the fire bombing and before the a bombs, instead of letting the military decide?

Or how about between atomic bombs one and two? He was given every opportunity to surrender but clearly didn't care about his people.

HE was not in charge. the IJA was. their belief was the Americans had only 1 bomb. it would not happen again

 

[saintmichaeldefendthem]

In the end a lot of Japanese, and a lot of Americans survived and lived out their lives. Perhaps the decision always lay in Hirohito's hands and after two bombs he told Japan to surrender and bingo the war was over. The real question: should the emperor have suggested surrender before the fire bombing and before the a bombs, instead of letting the military decide?

Or how about between atomic bombs one and two? He was given every opportunity to surrender but clearly didn't care about his people.

HE was not in charge. the IJA was. their belief was the Americans had only 1 bomb. it would not happen again

They believed that in spite of the fact that we told them we had another bomb and were going to use it if they didn't surrender. Anyone even remotely compassionate for the welfare of their people would have heeded that warning even if they didn't heed the first.

 

[namvet]

In the end a lot of Japanese, and a lot of Americans survived and lived out their lives. Perhaps the decision always lay in Hirohito's hands and after two bombs he told Japan to surrender and bingo the war was over. The real question: should the emperor have suggested surrender before the fire bombing and before the a bombs, instead of letting the military decide?

Or how about between atomic bombs one and two? He was given every opportunity to surrender but clearly didn't care about his people.

HE was not in charge. the IJA was. their belief was the Americans had only 1 bomb. it would not happen again

They believed that in spite of the fact that we told them we had another bomb and were going to use it if they didn't surrender. Anyone even remotely compassionate for the welfare of their people would have heeded that warning even if they didn't heed the first.

there was no compassion for civilians. they were nothing more than slaves. also we did drop leaflets warning civilians to leave large cities

 

[gipper]

In the end a lot of Japanese, and a lot of Americans survived and lived out their lives. Perhaps the decision always lay in Hirohito's hands and after two bombs he told Japan to surrender and bingo the war was over. The real question: should the emperor have suggested surrender before the fire bombing and before the a bombs, instead of letting the military decide?

Or how about between atomic bombs one and two? He was given every opportunity to surrender but clearly didn't care about his people.

HE was not in charge. the IJA was. their belief was the Americans had only 1 bomb. it would not happen again

They believed that in spite of the fact that we told them we had another bomb and were going to use it if they didn't surrender. Anyone even remotely compassionate for the welfare of their people would have heeded that warning even if they didn't heed the first.

there was no compassion for civilians. they were nothing more than slaves. also we did drop leaflets warning civilians to leave large cities

Truman had so much compassion for Japanese civilians, that he incinerated them on a vast scale for no legitimate reason.

 

[HenryBHough]

Where in Hell IS Truman when America needs him most?

 

[saintmichaeldefendthem]

In the end a lot of Japanese, and a lot of Americans survived and lived out their lives. Perhaps the decision always lay in Hirohito's hands and after two bombs he told Japan to surrender and bingo the war was over. The real question: should the emperor have suggested surrender before the fire bombing and before the a bombs, instead of letting the military decide?

Or how about between atomic bombs one and two? He was given every opportunity to surrender but clearly didn't care about his people.

HE was not in charge. the IJA was. their belief was the Americans had only 1 bomb. it would not happen again

They believed that in spite of the fact that we told them we had another bomb and were going to use it if they didn't surrender. Anyone even remotely compassionate for the welfare of their people would have heeded that warning even if they didn't heed the first.

there was no compassion for civilians. they were nothing more than slaves. also we did drop leaflets warning civilians to leave large cities

Truman had so much compassion for Japanese civilians, that he incinerated them on a vast scale for no legitimate reason.

Considering what the Japs had been doing for the last 100 years to all their neighbors, they got off easy.

 

[gipper]

Or how about between atomic bombs one and two? He was given every opportunity to surrender but clearly didn't care about his people.

HE was not in charge. the IJA was. their belief was the Americans had only 1 bomb. it would not happen again

They believed that in spite of the fact that we told them we had another bomb and were going to use it if they didn't surrender. Anyone even remotely compassionate for the welfare of their people would have heeded that warning even if they didn't heed the first.

there was no compassion for civilians. they were nothing more than slaves. also we did drop leaflets warning civilians to leave large cities

Truman had so much compassion for Japanese civilians, that he incinerated them on a vast scale for no legitimate reason.

Considering what the Japs had been doing for the last 100 years to all their neighbors, they got off easy.

There is no doubt the Japanese military and leadership was ruthless and deserving of destruction. Innocent women and children are not worthy of such actions and if America is a just nation, seeking peace and justice for all, murdering civilians by the hundreds of thousands is something we should never condone.

 

[gipper]

Where in Hell IS Truman when America needs him most?

I suspect you will find him burning in Hell.

 

[namvet]

In the end a lot of Japanese, and a lot of Americans survived and lived out their lives. Perhaps the decision always lay in Hirohito's hands and after two bombs he told Japan to surrender and bingo the war was over. The real question: should the emperor have suggested surrender before the fire bombing and before the a bombs, instead of letting the military decide?

Or how about between atomic bombs one and two? He was given every opportunity to surrender but clearly didn't care about his people.

HE was not in charge. the IJA was. their belief was the Americans had only 1 bomb. it would not happen again

They believed that in spite of the fact that we told them we had another bomb and were going to use it if they didn't surrender. Anyone even remotely compassionate for the welfare of their people would have heeded that warning even if they didn't heed the first.

there was no compassion for civilians. they were nothing more than slaves. also we did drop leaflets warning civilians to leave large cities

Truman had so much compassion for Japanese civilians, that he incinerated them on a vast scale for no legitimate reason.

try reading history. its all there

 

[gipper]

Or how about between atomic bombs one and two? He was given every opportunity to surrender but clearly didn't care about his people.

HE was not in charge. the IJA was. their belief was the Americans had only 1 bomb. it would not happen again

They believed that in spite of the fact that we told them we had another bomb and were going to use it if they didn't surrender. Anyone even remotely compassionate for the welfare of their people would have heeded that warning even if they didn't heed the first.

there was no compassion for civilians. they were nothing more than slaves. also we did drop leaflets warning civilians to leave large cities

Truman had so much compassion for Japanese civilians, that he incinerated them on a vast scale for no legitimate reason.

try reading history. its all there

It sure is. I learned from it and you did not.

 

[namvet]

HE was not in charge. the IJA was. their belief was the Americans had only 1 bomb. it would not happen again

They believed that in spite of the fact that we told them we had another bomb and were going to use it if they didn't surrender. Anyone even remotely compassionate for the welfare of their people would have heeded that warning even if they didn't heed the first.

there was no compassion for civilians. they were nothing more than slaves. also we did drop leaflets warning civilians to leave large cities

Truman had so much compassion for Japanese civilians, that he incinerated them on a vast scale for no legitimate reason.

try reading history. its all there

It sure is. I learned from it and you did not.

no you did not. imagine if you will (or can) having a brother who was in the Marines. and he was killed during the invasion. a year later you find out Truman had a weapon that would have saved his and millions and didn't use it. your satified with your borthers death right??

 

[gipper]

They believed that in spite of the fact that we told them we had another bomb and were going to use it if they didn't surrender. Anyone even remotely compassionate for the welfare of their people would have heeded that warning even if they didn't heed the first.

there was no compassion for civilians. they were nothing more than slaves. also we did drop leaflets warning civilians to leave large cities

Truman had so much compassion for Japanese civilians, that he incinerated them on a vast scale for no legitimate reason.

try reading history. its all there

It sure is. I learned from it and you did not.

no you did not. imagine if you will (or can) having a brother who was in the Marines. and he was killed during the invasion. a year later you find out Truman had a weapon that would have saved his and millions and didn't use it. your satified with your borthers death right??

Your post proves you have failed to learn the history. Your entire premise is BS. No invasion was necessary.

Try to understand that Japan was defeated before the bombs were dropped. The war was over. All we needed to do was go home.

 

[namvet]

there was no compassion for civilians. they were nothing more than slaves. also we did drop leaflets warning civilians to leave large cities

Truman had so much compassion for Japanese civilians, that he incinerated them on a vast scale for no legitimate reason.

try reading history. its all there

It sure is. I learned from it and you did not.

no you did not. imagine if you will (or can) having a brother who was in the Marines. and he was killed during the invasion. a year later you find out Truman had a weapon that would have saved his and millions and didn't use it. your satified with your borthers death right??

Your post proves you have failed to learn the history. Your entire premise is BS. No invasion was necessary.

Try to understand that Japan was defeated before the bombs were dropped. The war was over. All we needed to do was go home.

thank god they didn't put you in charge. you'd kill em all

 

[regent]

I wonder how many of us really understand the Japanese frame of mind at that time? Would most Japanese continued to fight to the death if the emperor said nothing and allowed the military to continue? The history of the Pacific War indicated they would. European and other nations would have surrendered, when the war seemed hopeless but not the Japanese, and that was the problem.
Would the American people have tolerated a ten year war and the continued slow destruction of a large part of the Japanese population by bombing? If Hirohito had not decided to end the war how long would it have continued, and at what cost to all?

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Gipper, what you do not know is there was no real choice.

The USSR was starting to flex their muscles upon becoming a super power. The Cold War began with the USSR in February of 1945 at conference of yalta.

By August of 1945, it was clear Stalin wanted control of the trade routes in the Far East. The same routes Japan dominated for nearly half a century. Yes, oil was the product and it was the main reason Japan wanted to control all of those shipping lanes.

Stalin, by 1945 was clearly desiring to dominate the world. There was an obvious clandestine agreement happening between Japan and the USSR. Japan was being enticed to surrender to the USSR. At that time, the US and the USSR were no longer allies. History even writes it that way.

So, the choices for Truman and the US were dubious at best, and dropping the bombs was really the only sensible option to give you an idea of paradoxical options he had.

Either, get into a long drawn out war with the USSR over control of the region, allow the USSR to run roughshod over the US and allow Japan to surrender to Stalin after we wasted so many American lives, or drop the bombs and force Stalin to back off and thereby prevent a full scale hot war with the USSR which would have cost us another 50000 lives if not more.

Btw there was no way the American people could stomach another long drawn out war with what they thought at the time was our ally.

Those are your choices Gipper. What do you do? Do not give me a hippy peace love answer. This is Stalin we are talking about. A megalomaniac if there was ever one. What choice do you make? Allow the Japanese to surrender to the USSR after we fought them and she'd our blood? Just let that happen? You have any idea the political fall out? What do you do Gipper? There were only 3 choices. What do you do?

Wrong.

All Truman had to do was except the ONLY condition Japan requested for surrender, in July 1945. That condition was allowing the Emperor to stay on and not be prosecuted....which Truman did, but after he incinerated thousands of innocent Japanese with the two bombs.

Thinking that mass murder of innocents was justified in an effort to control Stalin, is abhorrent and immoral.

Stalin was certainly a dangerous and sick individual, but he could never have prevailed against the USA in 1945. He had no navy and little air force. He had a huge army, which he would gladly sacrifice for world dominion. However, he was smart enough to know he stood little chance against American firepower.

That said, he also had spies deeply embedded throughout the FDR/Truman administrations and had great success in duping FDR. He may have thought he could dupe Truman too, rather than war against the USA.

That is NOT the only condition. They demanded that no occupation and no troops in Japan, they asked for a ceasefire where in all their property that was taken in the war would be returned. And they demanded that their war in China continue.

It was the ONLY condition Japan requested in May 1945. Please read...

The stark fact is that the Japanese leaders, both military and civilian, including the Emperor, were willing to surrender in May of 1945 if the Emperor could remain in place and not be subjected to a war crimes trial after the war. This fact became known to President Truman as early as May of 1945. The Japanese monarchy was one of the oldest in all of history dating back to 660 B.C. The Japanese religion added the belief that all the Emperors were the direct descendants of the sun goddess, Amaterasu. The reigning Emperor Hirohito was the 124th in the direct line of descent. After the bombs were dropped on August 6 and 9 of 1945, and their surrender soon thereafter, the Japanese were allowed to keep their Emperor on the throne and he was not subjected to any war crimes trial. The Emperor, Hirohito, came on the throne in 1926 and continued in his position until his death in 1989. Since President Truman, in effect, accepted the conditional surrender offered by the Japanese as early as May of 1945, the question is posed, "Why then were the bombs dropped?"

The author Alperovitz gives us the answer in great detail which can only be summarized here, but he states, "We have noted a series of Japanese peace feelers in Switzerland which OSS Chief William Donovan reported to Truman in May and June [1945]. These suggested, even at this point, that the U.S. demand for unconditional surrender might well be the only serious obstacle to peace. At the center of the explorations, as we also saw, was Allen Dulles, chief ofOSS operations in Switzerland (and subsequently Director of the CIA). In his 1966 book The Secret Surrender, Dulles recalled that u2018On July 20, 1945, under instructions from Washington, I went to the Potsdam Conference and reported there to Secretary [of War] Stimson on what I had learned from Tokyo — they desired to surrender if they could retain the Emperor and their constitution as a basis for maintaining discipline and order in Japan after the devastating news of surrender became known to the Japanese people.'" It is documented by Alperovitz that Stimson reported this directly to Truman. Alperovitz furtherpoints out in detail the documentary proof that every top presidential civilian and military advisor, with the exception of James Byrnes, along with Prime Minister Churchill and his top British military leadership, urged Truman to revise the unconditional surrender policy so as to allow the Japanese to surrender and keep their Emperor. All this advice was given to Truman prior to the Potsdam Proclamation which occurred on July 26, 1945. This proclamation made a final demand upon Japan to surrender unconditionally or suffer drastic consequences.
READ the entire column here...
The Hiroshima Myth 8211 LewRockwell.com

These books are required reading, if you want the truth.
Amazon.com The Decision to Use the Atomic Bomb 9780679762850 Gar Alperovitz Books

Great Mistakes of the War Hanson W. Baldwin Amazon.com Books

The Secret Surrender The Classic Insider s Account of the Secret Plot to Surrender Northern Italy During WWII Allen W. Dulles 9781592283682 Amazon.com Books

Again, you ignore the other 3 conditions they wanted, no occupation, to keep what they had won in China, and no war crimes trials.

Kido proposed that Japan withdraw from the formerly European colonies it had occupied provided they were granted independence, that Japan disarm provided this not occur under Allied supervision, and that Japan for a time be "content with minimum defense." Kido's proposal did not contemplate Allied occupation of Japan, prosecution of war criminals or substantial change in Japan's system of government.

Surrender of Japan - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

I ignored it because it was not a condition in May 1945.

You are a liar or to stupid to breathe