Did we really have to nuke Japan?

[Mojo2]

Japan was a defeated country. It's once powerful navy was left with a couple of submarines and little or no surface ships. It's army was defeated on every front. The clinically insane remnants of the Bushido empire were desperate to negotiate terms with the US but Harry Truman was following orders from his deceased former boss and the clinically insane holdouts in the FDR administration and he refused to negotiate so the Japanese went to Stalin who promised them everything. The biggest issue in the Japanese negotiations was the preservation of the Emperor and the promise that he would not be executed. Ironically that promise was kept after Truman authorized the incineration of two Japanese cities. While the Japanese thought they were negotiating peace terms with Russia (who was a US ally) they were jolted into reality with entire cities destroyed with a single bomb. The use of the Atomic bomb was a hideous example of how degenerate human beings had become in a mere four years.

So....after 150 years of atrocities against its neighbors and attacking Pearl Harbor, Japan is the victim?

Revenge is a very, very bad military tactic. Killing civilians to convince a crazy band of military holdouts to surrender is itself evidence of the loss of humanity in the U.S.. The use of nuclear weapons on civilians was the final indication that the FDR/Truman administration had gone insane and the media at the time was just a propaganda arm of the military.

I feel great irritation when i read posts from those who know not of which they speak.

Your post is like that.

You don't even know how or what the glaring flaw in your position is.

You fail at the internets.

 

[The Irish Ram]

There was much criticism of the bombings...not knowing this, is proof you are uninformed.

No, that means I understand consensus. While a philosophical few pondered the question, and politicians weighed in, the world had grown weary of young men dying for a German or Japanese desire for world dominance. Up to 85 million people were buried because someone wanted to be king of the world. We decided that was enough. It was no longer how it ended, just that it ended. The world was glad it ended.

 

[Mojo2]

 

[Two Thumbs]

I don't buy it.

They no longer had a navy or air force to project their armies.

A simple food and trade embargo would have sufficed (enforced by our unchallenged navy).

There was no reason to even attack the Japanese mainland.

I think it was a bunch of sick and demented fucks that wanted to demonstrate the power of their new toy to the communist USSR.

Admiral William Leahy – the highest ranking member of the U.S. military from 1942 until retiring in 1949, who was the first de facto Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, and who was at the center of all major American military decisions in World War II – wrote (pg. 441):

It is my opinion that the use of this barbarous weapon at Hiroshima and Nagasaki was of no material assistance in our war against Japan. The Japanese were already defeated and ready to surrender because of the effective sea blockade and the successful bombing with conventional weapons.

The lethal possibilities of atomic warfare in the future are frightening. My own feeling was that in being the first to use it, we had adopted an ethical standard common to the barbarians of the Dark Ages. I was not taught to make war in that fashion, and wars cannot be won by destroying women and children.

This country is being run by murderous sociopaths.

your ignorance is profound

w/o the bombs we would possibly talk about the Japanese in the past tense



we took few prisoners, b/c they fought to the death, and many that we did take killed themselves

 

[kflaux]

I think it is easy to look back now and second guess the decision, but if you read the discussions, there was an actual plan for the invasion of the Japanese islands- and a projected American casualties of over a million.

As others have pointed out, those projections were fabrications, designed to try to defend the decision. They had no basis in reality.

With that in mind, Truman's decision seems rational to me- as much as any war could be called rational.

Modern scholars think that Russia's invasion of Manchuria had more to do with the surrender than did the atomic bombs, about which the J leadership had little reliable information at the time.

Moreover, the Japanese were trying to open talks to discuss surrender. The US leaders knew this.

BTW there is a fairly popular book in Japan called, roughly, "Don't Let Japan Surrender Until We Drop the Bomb".

Setting aside the arguments in the book, it has been widely read, with mixed reviews.

 

[Syriusly]

I think it is easy to look back now and second guess the decision, but if you read the discussions, there was an actual plan for the invasion of the Japanese islands- and a projected American casualties of over a million.

As others have pointed out, those projections were fabrications, designed to try to defend the decision. They had no basis in reality.

With that in mind, Truman's decision seems rational to me- as much as any war could be called rational.

Modern scholars think that Russia's invasion of Manchuria had more to do with the surrender than did the atomic bombs, about which the J leadership had little reliable information at the time.

Moreover, the Japanese were trying to open talks to discuss surrender. The US leaders knew this.

BTW there is a fairly popular book in Japan called, roughly, "Don't Let Japan Surrender Until We Drop the Bomb".

Setting aside the arguments in the book, it has been widely read, with mixed reviews.

More accurately- some modern scholars have made that argument. Most modern scholars do not agree that those projections were fabricated.

 

[SillyWabbit]

LOL: I thought the questoion was "Do we really have to nuke Japan?"

 

[Syriusly]

There was much criticism of the bombings...not knowing this, is proof you are uninformed. Some of that criticism is clearly posted in this thread. Read it.

Yes America had to occupy Germany and Japan, only because they destroyed both nations making them unable to defend themselves from the Russian hordes.

The US military originally believed they would lose 40k men had they invaded Japan. The 500,000 American deaths is complete fiction and a lie unfortunately believed by many, even today. The lie was fabricated to convince us that the war criminal Truman, was right in murdering thousands of Japanese women and children in cold blood...really not much different from what the Nazis did in their death camps.

Its all right here:
http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig2/denson7
html http://www.lewrockwell.com/raico/raico22.html

Any links to real sources?

Yeah- there are lots of lies about the bombings.

You have promoted some of them.

 

[MaryL]

Japan had been starving for at least a year, and they were quite obviously losing the war. A war they initiated. A brutal war, killing millions of innocent Chinese, Koreans, Burmese, Asians of every stripe, as lesser people. And they still weren't giving up...until that second A bomb. They got the picture, they were done. Absolutely it took such an extreme method, after the firebombing of Tokyo killed at least 100,000 people and it left no impression on the Japanese psyche, it took so much firepower to make an impression on the Japanese Imperial government. A short sharp shock. They couldn't even try for a stalemate.

 

[gipper]

Japan had been starving for at least a year, and they were quite obviously losing the war. A war they initiated. A brutal war, killing millions of innocent Chinese, Koreans, Burmese, Asians of every stripe, as lesser people. And they still weren't giving up...until that second A bomb. They got the picture, they were done. Absolutely it took such an extreme method, after the firebombing of Tokyo killed at least 100,000 people and it left no impression on the Japanese psyche, it took so much firepower to make an impression on the Japanese Imperial government. A short sharp shock. They couldn't even try for a stalemate.

Total war is never the answer and always immoral.
The American people are a great people... Sadly our leadership are a bunch of psychopaths.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

Surrendering with conditions is still surrendering. Eisenhower and MacArthur understood that, why don't you?

That type of surrender is what got Europe WWII out of WWI. Their conditions of no occupation, no disarmament, war crimes to be tried by the Japanese themselves were no-go's.

That is literally the opposite of what happened in WWI. An unconditional surrender by Germany leading to the punishing Versailles Treaty whereby Germany takes full responsibility for the war, must pay the Allies, give up territory, etc.. etc... is what led to the rise of the National Socialists within Germany because they promised to return Germany to greatness.

Germany did not unconditionally surrender in 1918. They got an armistice and then negotiated a peace treaty. Thats what Japan wanted in 1945.

Yes, they negotiated being utterly destroyed by the Treaty of Versailles.

Germany was not occupied with the exception of the Rhine beachheads, The government was not dissolved. Their army was not disbanded. There was no unconditional surrender, this was a conditional surrender/armistice. Germany could have tried to go back to war in 1919, but I doubt they would have like the outcome.

Of course they could have, but that's the point of surrender. Germany had absolutely no negotiating power at Paris and the French got everything they wanted from Germany: Territory, money, apologies, disarmament, etc... This lopsided peace is what brought the rise of the Nazis.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Some of those posters wouldn't even be alive because their grandfather died in a costly invasion and never met their grandmother. That's what happens when history is rewritten.

An invasion rendered unnecessary by the fact that Japan was attempting to surrender.

No they were not as evidenced by my already linked source documents all Japan offered was a ceasefire in place with a return to Japan of all land seized since the start of the war.

How many times have you and I done this? You post the link to your source documents, I find the documents showing the Japanese cables intercepted by the U.S. showing them reaching out to the Soviet Union to end the conflict, thus making any invasion or nuclear bombing unnecessary, and you resort to quibbling over semantics.

All that Japan offered was a ceasefire with a return to November 1941 start positions. You know it, I know it and anyone that reads the link knows it. That is not an offer to surrender.

Surrendering with conditions is still surrendering. Eisenhower and MacArthur understood that, why don't you?

So you think the US should have agreed to allow Japan to have back all her conquered property, remain at war with China and we should have just said ok? Now who is the idiot? Japan never offered to surrender. Even after one atomic bomb they asked that they retain the property their wars had gotten them and that all that happen is a ceasefire.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

America is the greatest nation to ever exist. This is due to its foundation of limited government and maximum individual liberty.

However America has been poorly lead by a criminal gang known as politicians, for some time.

Truman was without a doubt a war criminal. Dropping those bombs on a defeated and defenseless nation, killing scores of women, children, and old people can only be considered a terrible crime against humanity.

Gipper, what you do not know is there was no real choice.

The USSR was starting to flex their muscles upon becoming a super power. The Cold War began with the USSR in February of 1945 at conference of yalta.

By August of 1945, it was clear Stalin wanted control of the trade routes in the Far East. The same routes Japan dominated for nearly half a century. Yes, oil was the product and it was the main reason Japan wanted to control all of those shipping lanes.

Stalin, by 1945 was clearly desiring to dominate the world. There was an obvious clandestine agreement happening between Japan and the USSR. Japan was being enticed to surrender to the USSR. At that time, the US and the USSR were no longer allies. History even writes it that way.

So, the choices for Truman and the US were dubious at best, and dropping the bombs was really the only sensible option to give you an idea of paradoxical options he had.

Either, get into a long drawn out war with the USSR over control of the region, allow the USSR to run roughshod over the US and allow Japan to surrender to Stalin after we wasted so many American lives, or drop the bombs and force Stalin to back off and thereby prevent a full scale hot war with the USSR which would have cost us another 50000 lives if not more.

Btw there was no way the American people could stomach another long drawn out war with what they thought at the time was our ally.

Those are your choices Gipper. What do you do? Do not give me a hippy peace love answer. This is Stalin we are talking about. A megalomaniac if there was ever one. What choice do you make? Allow the Japanese to surrender to the USSR after we fought them and she'd our blood? Just let that happen? You have any idea the political fall out? What do you do Gipper? There were only 3 choices. What do you do?

Wrong.

All Truman had to do was except the ONLY condition Japan requested for surrender, in July 1945. That condition was allowing the Emperor to stay on and not be prosecuted....which Truman did, but after he incinerated thousands of innocent Japanese with the two bombs.

Thinking that mass murder of innocents was justified in an effort to control Stalin, is abhorrent and immoral.

Stalin was certainly a dangerous and sick individual, but he could never have prevailed against the USA in 1945. He had no navy and little air force. He had a huge army, which he would gladly sacrifice for world dominion. However, he was smart enough to know he stood little chance against American firepower.

That said, he also had spies deeply embedded throughout the FDR/Truman administrations and had great success in duping FDR. He may have thought he could dupe Truman too, rather than war against the USA.

That is NOT the only condition. They demanded that no occupation and no troops in Japan, they asked for a ceasefire where in all their property that was taken in the war would be returned. And they demanded that their war in China continue.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

An invasion rendered unnecessary by the fact that Japan was attempting to surrender.

No they were not as evidenced by my already linked source documents all Japan offered was a ceasefire in place with a return to Japan of all land seized since the start of the war.

How many times have you and I done this? You post the link to your source documents, I find the documents showing the Japanese cables intercepted by the U.S. showing them reaching out to the Soviet Union to end the conflict, thus making any invasion or nuclear bombing unnecessary, and you resort to quibbling over semantics.

All that Japan offered was a ceasefire with a return to November 1941 start positions. You know it, I know it and anyone that reads the link knows it. That is not an offer to surrender.

Surrendering with conditions is still surrendering. Eisenhower and MacArthur understood that, why don't you?

So you think the US should have agreed to allow Japan to have back all her conquered property, remain at war with China and we should have just said ok? Now who is the idiot? Japan never offered to surrender. Even after one atomic bomb they asked that they retain the property their wars had gotten them and that all that happen is a ceasefire.

You apparently. Is that what I said?

 

[Unkotare]

Hiroshima survivor tracks down POW victims for posterity The Japan Times

 

[gipper]

America is the greatest nation to ever exist. This is due to its foundation of limited government and maximum individual liberty.

However America has been poorly lead by a criminal gang known as politicians, for some time.

Truman was without a doubt a war criminal. Dropping those bombs on a defeated and defenseless nation, killing scores of women, children, and old people can only be considered a terrible crime against humanity.

Gipper, what you do not know is there was no real choice.

The USSR was starting to flex their muscles upon becoming a super power. The Cold War began with the USSR in February of 1945 at conference of yalta.

By August of 1945, it was clear Stalin wanted control of the trade routes in the Far East. The same routes Japan dominated for nearly half a century. Yes, oil was the product and it was the main reason Japan wanted to control all of those shipping lanes.

Stalin, by 1945 was clearly desiring to dominate the world. There was an obvious clandestine agreement happening between Japan and the USSR. Japan was being enticed to surrender to the USSR. At that time, the US and the USSR were no longer allies. History even writes it that way.

So, the choices for Truman and the US were dubious at best, and dropping the bombs was really the only sensible option to give you an idea of paradoxical options he had.

Either, get into a long drawn out war with the USSR over control of the region, allow the USSR to run roughshod over the US and allow Japan to surrender to Stalin after we wasted so many American lives, or drop the bombs and force Stalin to back off and thereby prevent a full scale hot war with the USSR which would have cost us another 50000 lives if not more.

Btw there was no way the American people could stomach another long drawn out war with what they thought at the time was our ally.

Those are your choices Gipper. What do you do? Do not give me a hippy peace love answer. This is Stalin we are talking about. A megalomaniac if there was ever one. What choice do you make? Allow the Japanese to surrender to the USSR after we fought them and she'd our blood? Just let that happen? You have any idea the political fall out? What do you do Gipper? There were only 3 choices. What do you do?

Wrong.

All Truman had to do was except the ONLY condition Japan requested for surrender, in July 1945. That condition was allowing the Emperor to stay on and not be prosecuted....which Truman did, but after he incinerated thousands of innocent Japanese with the two bombs.

Thinking that mass murder of innocents was justified in an effort to control Stalin, is abhorrent and immoral.

Stalin was certainly a dangerous and sick individual, but he could never have prevailed against the USA in 1945. He had no navy and little air force. He had a huge army, which he would gladly sacrifice for world dominion. However, he was smart enough to know he stood little chance against American firepower.

That said, he also had spies deeply embedded throughout the FDR/Truman administrations and had great success in duping FDR. He may have thought he could dupe Truman too, rather than war against the USA.

That is NOT the only condition. They demanded that no occupation and no troops in Japan, they asked for a ceasefire where in all their property that was taken in the war would be returned. And they demanded that their war in China continue.

It was the ONLY condition Japan requested in May 1945. Please read...

The stark fact is that the Japanese leaders, both military and civilian, including the Emperor, were willing to surrender in May of 1945 if the Emperor could remain in place and not be subjected to a war crimes trial after the war. This fact became known to President Truman as early as May of 1945. The Japanese monarchy was one of the oldest in all of history dating back to 660 B.C. The Japanese religion added the belief that all the Emperors were the direct descendants of the sun goddess, Amaterasu. The reigning Emperor Hirohito was the 124th in the direct line of descent. After the bombs were dropped on August 6 and 9 of 1945, and their surrender soon thereafter, the Japanese were allowed to keep their Emperor on the throne and he was not subjected to any war crimes trial. The Emperor, Hirohito, came on the throne in 1926 and continued in his position until his death in 1989. Since President Truman, in effect, accepted the conditional surrender offered by the Japanese as early as May of 1945, the question is posed, "Why then were the bombs dropped?"

The author Alperovitz gives us the answer in great detail which can only be summarized here, but he states, "We have noted a series of Japanese peace feelers in Switzerland which OSS Chief William Donovan reported to Truman in May and June [1945]. These suggested, even at this point, that the U.S. demand for unconditional surrender might well be the only serious obstacle to peace. At the center of the explorations, as we also saw, was Allen Dulles, chief ofOSS operations in Switzerland (and subsequently Director of the CIA). In his 1966 book The Secret Surrender, Dulles recalled that u2018On July 20, 1945, under instructions from Washington, I went to the Potsdam Conference and reported there to Secretary [of War] Stimson on what I had learned from Tokyo — they desired to surrender if they could retain the Emperor and their constitution as a basis for maintaining discipline and order in Japan after the devastating news of surrender became known to the Japanese people.'" It is documented by Alperovitz that Stimson reported this directly to Truman. Alperovitz furtherpoints out in detail the documentary proof that every top presidential civilian and military advisor, with the exception of James Byrnes, along with Prime Minister Churchill and his top British military leadership, urged Truman to revise the unconditional surrender policy so as to allow the Japanese to surrender and keep their Emperor. All this advice was given to Truman prior to the Potsdam Proclamation which occurred on July 26, 1945. This proclamation made a final demand upon Japan to surrender unconditionally or suffer drastic consequences.
READ the entire column here...
The Hiroshima Myth 8211 LewRockwell.com

These books are required reading, if you want the truth.
Amazon.com The Decision to Use the Atomic Bomb 9780679762850 Gar Alperovitz Books

Great Mistakes of the War Hanson W. Baldwin Amazon.com Books

The Secret Surrender The Classic Insider s Account of the Secret Plot to Surrender Northern Italy During WWII Allen W. Dulles 9781592283682 Amazon.com Books

 

[martybegan]

That type of surrender is what got Europe WWII out of WWI. Their conditions of no occupation, no disarmament, war crimes to be tried by the Japanese themselves were no-go's.

That is literally the opposite of what happened in WWI. An unconditional surrender by Germany leading to the punishing Versailles Treaty whereby Germany takes full responsibility for the war, must pay the Allies, give up territory, etc.. etc... is what led to the rise of the National Socialists within Germany because they promised to return Germany to greatness.

Germany did not unconditionally surrender in 1918. They got an armistice and then negotiated a peace treaty. Thats what Japan wanted in 1945.

Yes, they negotiated being utterly destroyed by the Treaty of Versailles.

Germany was not occupied with the exception of the Rhine beachheads, The government was not dissolved. Their army was not disbanded. There was no unconditional surrender, this was a conditional surrender/armistice. Germany could have tried to go back to war in 1919, but I doubt they would have like the outcome.

Of course they could have, but that's the point of surrender. Germany had absolutely no negotiating power at Paris and the French got everything they wanted from Germany: Territory, money, apologies, disarmament, etc... This lopsided peace is what brought the rise of the Nazis.

and unconditional surrender ends the concept of the "lopsided peace" because the government and people in charge at the time are completely purged (at least the high level ones), and the loser's government is built from the ground up by the victors. After WWII the German and Japanese people had no illusion as to who won and lost, unlike the german's in WWI.

 

[martybegan]

America is the greatest nation to ever exist. This is due to its foundation of limited government and maximum individual liberty.

However America has been poorly lead by a criminal gang known as politicians, for some time.

Truman was without a doubt a war criminal. Dropping those bombs on a defeated and defenseless nation, killing scores of women, children, and old people can only be considered a terrible crime against humanity.

Gipper, what you do not know is there was no real choice.

The USSR was starting to flex their muscles upon becoming a super power. The Cold War began with the USSR in February of 1945 at conference of yalta.

By August of 1945, it was clear Stalin wanted control of the trade routes in the Far East. The same routes Japan dominated for nearly half a century. Yes, oil was the product and it was the main reason Japan wanted to control all of those shipping lanes.

Stalin, by 1945 was clearly desiring to dominate the world. There was an obvious clandestine agreement happening between Japan and the USSR. Japan was being enticed to surrender to the USSR. At that time, the US and the USSR were no longer allies. History even writes it that way.

So, the choices for Truman and the US were dubious at best, and dropping the bombs was really the only sensible option to give you an idea of paradoxical options he had.

Either, get into a long drawn out war with the USSR over control of the region, allow the USSR to run roughshod over the US and allow Japan to surrender to Stalin after we wasted so many American lives, or drop the bombs and force Stalin to back off and thereby prevent a full scale hot war with the USSR which would have cost us another 50000 lives if not more.

Btw there was no way the American people could stomach another long drawn out war with what they thought at the time was our ally.

Those are your choices Gipper. What do you do? Do not give me a hippy peace love answer. This is Stalin we are talking about. A megalomaniac if there was ever one. What choice do you make? Allow the Japanese to surrender to the USSR after we fought them and she'd our blood? Just let that happen? You have any idea the political fall out? What do you do Gipper? There were only 3 choices. What do you do?

Wrong.

All Truman had to do was except the ONLY condition Japan requested for surrender, in July 1945. That condition was allowing the Emperor to stay on and not be prosecuted....which Truman did, but after he incinerated thousands of innocent Japanese with the two bombs.

Thinking that mass murder of innocents was justified in an effort to control Stalin, is abhorrent and immoral.

Stalin was certainly a dangerous and sick individual, but he could never have prevailed against the USA in 1945. He had no navy and little air force. He had a huge army, which he would gladly sacrifice for world dominion. However, he was smart enough to know he stood little chance against American firepower.

That said, he also had spies deeply embedded throughout the FDR/Truman administrations and had great success in duping FDR. He may have thought he could dupe Truman too, rather than war against the USA.

That is NOT the only condition. They demanded that no occupation and no troops in Japan, they asked for a ceasefire where in all their property that was taken in the war would be returned. And they demanded that their war in China continue.

It was the ONLY condition Japan requested in May 1945. Please read...

The stark fact is that the Japanese leaders, both military and civilian, including the Emperor, were willing to surrender in May of 1945 if the Emperor could remain in place and not be subjected to a war crimes trial after the war. This fact became known to President Truman as early as May of 1945. The Japanese monarchy was one of the oldest in all of history dating back to 660 B.C. The Japanese religion added the belief that all the Emperors were the direct descendants of the sun goddess, Amaterasu. The reigning Emperor Hirohito was the 124th in the direct line of descent. After the bombs were dropped on August 6 and 9 of 1945, and their surrender soon thereafter, the Japanese were allowed to keep their Emperor on the throne and he was not subjected to any war crimes trial. The Emperor, Hirohito, came on the throne in 1926 and continued in his position until his death in 1989. Since President Truman, in effect, accepted the conditional surrender offered by the Japanese as early as May of 1945, the question is posed, "Why then were the bombs dropped?"

The author Alperovitz gives us the answer in great detail which can only be summarized here, but he states, "We have noted a series of Japanese peace feelers in Switzerland which OSS Chief William Donovan reported to Truman in May and June [1945]. These suggested, even at this point, that the U.S. demand for unconditional surrender might well be the only serious obstacle to peace. At the center of the explorations, as we also saw, was Allen Dulles, chief ofOSS operations in Switzerland (and subsequently Director of the CIA). In his 1966 book The Secret Surrender, Dulles recalled that u2018On July 20, 1945, under instructions from Washington, I went to the Potsdam Conference and reported there to Secretary [of War] Stimson on what I had learned from Tokyo — they desired to surrender if they could retain the Emperor and their constitution as a basis for maintaining discipline and order in Japan after the devastating news of surrender became known to the Japanese people.'" It is documented by Alperovitz that Stimson reported this directly to Truman. Alperovitz furtherpoints out in detail the documentary proof that every top presidential civilian and military advisor, with the exception of James Byrnes, along with Prime Minister Churchill and his top British military leadership, urged Truman to revise the unconditional surrender policy so as to allow the Japanese to surrender and keep their Emperor. All this advice was given to Truman prior to the Potsdam Proclamation which occurred on July 26, 1945. This proclamation made a final demand upon Japan to surrender unconditionally or suffer drastic consequences.
READ the entire column here...
The Hiroshima Myth 8211 LewRockwell.com

These books are required reading, if you want the truth.
Amazon.com The Decision to Use the Atomic Bomb 9780679762850 Gar Alperovitz Books

Great Mistakes of the War Hanson W. Baldwin Amazon.com Books

The Secret Surrender The Classic Insider s Account of the Secret Plot to Surrender Northern Italy During WWII Allen W. Dulles 9781592283682 Amazon.com Books

Again, you ignore the other 3 conditions they wanted, no occupation, to keep what they had won in China, and no war crimes trials.

Kido proposed that Japan withdraw from the formerly European colonies it had occupied provided they were granted independence, that Japan disarm provided this not occur under Allied supervision, and that Japan for a time be "content with minimum defense." Kido's proposal did not contemplate Allied occupation of Japan, prosecution of war criminals or substantial change in Japan's system of government.

Surrender of Japan - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

 

[gipper]

America is the greatest nation to ever exist. This is due to its foundation of limited government and maximum individual liberty.

However America has been poorly lead by a criminal gang known as politicians, for some time.

Truman was without a doubt a war criminal. Dropping those bombs on a defeated and defenseless nation, killing scores of women, children, and old people can only be considered a terrible crime against humanity.

Gipper, what you do not know is there was no real choice.

The USSR was starting to flex their muscles upon becoming a super power. The Cold War began with the USSR in February of 1945 at conference of yalta.

By August of 1945, it was clear Stalin wanted control of the trade routes in the Far East. The same routes Japan dominated for nearly half a century. Yes, oil was the product and it was the main reason Japan wanted to control all of those shipping lanes.

Stalin, by 1945 was clearly desiring to dominate the world. There was an obvious clandestine agreement happening between Japan and the USSR. Japan was being enticed to surrender to the USSR. At that time, the US and the USSR were no longer allies. History even writes it that way.

So, the choices for Truman and the US were dubious at best, and dropping the bombs was really the only sensible option to give you an idea of paradoxical options he had.

Either, get into a long drawn out war with the USSR over control of the region, allow the USSR to run roughshod over the US and allow Japan to surrender to Stalin after we wasted so many American lives, or drop the bombs and force Stalin to back off and thereby prevent a full scale hot war with the USSR which would have cost us another 50000 lives if not more.

Btw there was no way the American people could stomach another long drawn out war with what they thought at the time was our ally.

Those are your choices Gipper. What do you do? Do not give me a hippy peace love answer. This is Stalin we are talking about. A megalomaniac if there was ever one. What choice do you make? Allow the Japanese to surrender to the USSR after we fought them and she'd our blood? Just let that happen? You have any idea the political fall out? What do you do Gipper? There were only 3 choices. What do you do?

Wrong.

All Truman had to do was except the ONLY condition Japan requested for surrender, in July 1945. That condition was allowing the Emperor to stay on and not be prosecuted....which Truman did, but after he incinerated thousands of innocent Japanese with the two bombs.

Thinking that mass murder of innocents was justified in an effort to control Stalin, is abhorrent and immoral.

Stalin was certainly a dangerous and sick individual, but he could never have prevailed against the USA in 1945. He had no navy and little air force. He had a huge army, which he would gladly sacrifice for world dominion. However, he was smart enough to know he stood little chance against American firepower.

That said, he also had spies deeply embedded throughout the FDR/Truman administrations and had great success in duping FDR. He may have thought he could dupe Truman too, rather than war against the USA.

That is NOT the only condition. They demanded that no occupation and no troops in Japan, they asked for a ceasefire where in all their property that was taken in the war would be returned. And they demanded that their war in China continue.

It was the ONLY condition Japan requested in May 1945. Please read...

The stark fact is that the Japanese leaders, both military and civilian, including the Emperor, were willing to surrender in May of 1945 if the Emperor could remain in place and not be subjected to a war crimes trial after the war. This fact became known to President Truman as early as May of 1945. The Japanese monarchy was one of the oldest in all of history dating back to 660 B.C. The Japanese religion added the belief that all the Emperors were the direct descendants of the sun goddess, Amaterasu. The reigning Emperor Hirohito was the 124th in the direct line of descent. After the bombs were dropped on August 6 and 9 of 1945, and their surrender soon thereafter, the Japanese were allowed to keep their Emperor on the throne and he was not subjected to any war crimes trial. The Emperor, Hirohito, came on the throne in 1926 and continued in his position until his death in 1989. Since President Truman, in effect, accepted the conditional surrender offered by the Japanese as early as May of 1945, the question is posed, "Why then were the bombs dropped?"

The author Alperovitz gives us the answer in great detail which can only be summarized here, but he states, "We have noted a series of Japanese peace feelers in Switzerland which OSS Chief William Donovan reported to Truman in May and June [1945]. These suggested, even at this point, that the U.S. demand for unconditional surrender might well be the only serious obstacle to peace. At the center of the explorations, as we also saw, was Allen Dulles, chief ofOSS operations in Switzerland (and subsequently Director of the CIA). In his 1966 book The Secret Surrender, Dulles recalled that u2018On July 20, 1945, under instructions from Washington, I went to the Potsdam Conference and reported there to Secretary [of War] Stimson on what I had learned from Tokyo — they desired to surrender if they could retain the Emperor and their constitution as a basis for maintaining discipline and order in Japan after the devastating news of surrender became known to the Japanese people.'" It is documented by Alperovitz that Stimson reported this directly to Truman. Alperovitz furtherpoints out in detail the documentary proof that every top presidential civilian and military advisor, with the exception of James Byrnes, along with Prime Minister Churchill and his top British military leadership, urged Truman to revise the unconditional surrender policy so as to allow the Japanese to surrender and keep their Emperor. All this advice was given to Truman prior to the Potsdam Proclamation which occurred on July 26, 1945. This proclamation made a final demand upon Japan to surrender unconditionally or suffer drastic consequences.
READ the entire column here...
The Hiroshima Myth 8211 LewRockwell.com

These books are required reading, if you want the truth.
Amazon.com The Decision to Use the Atomic Bomb 9780679762850 Gar Alperovitz Books

Great Mistakes of the War Hanson W. Baldwin Amazon.com Books

The Secret Surrender The Classic Insider s Account of the Secret Plot to Surrender Northern Italy During WWII Allen W. Dulles 9781592283682 Amazon.com Books

Again, you ignore the other 3 conditions they wanted, no occupation, to keep what they had won in China, and no war crimes trials.

Kido proposed that Japan withdraw from the formerly European colonies it had occupied provided they were granted independence, that Japan disarm provided this not occur under Allied supervision, and that Japan for a time be "content with minimum defense." Kido's proposal did not contemplate Allied occupation of Japan, prosecution of war criminals or substantial change in Japan's system of government.

Surrender of Japan - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

I ignored it because it was not a condition in May 1945.

 

[martybegan]

Gipper, what you do not know is there was no real choice.

The USSR was starting to flex their muscles upon becoming a super power. The Cold War began with the USSR in February of 1945 at conference of yalta.

By August of 1945, it was clear Stalin wanted control of the trade routes in the Far East. The same routes Japan dominated for nearly half a century. Yes, oil was the product and it was the main reason Japan wanted to control all of those shipping lanes.

Stalin, by 1945 was clearly desiring to dominate the world. There was an obvious clandestine agreement happening between Japan and the USSR. Japan was being enticed to surrender to the USSR. At that time, the US and the USSR were no longer allies. History even writes it that way.

So, the choices for Truman and the US were dubious at best, and dropping the bombs was really the only sensible option to give you an idea of paradoxical options he had.

Either, get into a long drawn out war with the USSR over control of the region, allow the USSR to run roughshod over the US and allow Japan to surrender to Stalin after we wasted so many American lives, or drop the bombs and force Stalin to back off and thereby prevent a full scale hot war with the USSR which would have cost us another 50000 lives if not more.

Btw there was no way the American people could stomach another long drawn out war with what they thought at the time was our ally.

Those are your choices Gipper. What do you do? Do not give me a hippy peace love answer. This is Stalin we are talking about. A megalomaniac if there was ever one. What choice do you make? Allow the Japanese to surrender to the USSR after we fought them and she'd our blood? Just let that happen? You have any idea the political fall out? What do you do Gipper? There were only 3 choices. What do you do?

Wrong.

All Truman had to do was except the ONLY condition Japan requested for surrender, in July 1945. That condition was allowing the Emperor to stay on and not be prosecuted....which Truman did, but after he incinerated thousands of innocent Japanese with the two bombs.

Thinking that mass murder of innocents was justified in an effort to control Stalin, is abhorrent and immoral.

Stalin was certainly a dangerous and sick individual, but he could never have prevailed against the USA in 1945. He had no navy and little air force. He had a huge army, which he would gladly sacrifice for world dominion. However, he was smart enough to know he stood little chance against American firepower.

That said, he also had spies deeply embedded throughout the FDR/Truman administrations and had great success in duping FDR. He may have thought he could dupe Truman too, rather than war against the USA.

That is NOT the only condition. They demanded that no occupation and no troops in Japan, they asked for a ceasefire where in all their property that was taken in the war would be returned. And they demanded that their war in China continue.

It was the ONLY condition Japan requested in May 1945. Please read...

The stark fact is that the Japanese leaders, both military and civilian, including the Emperor, were willing to surrender in May of 1945 if the Emperor could remain in place and not be subjected to a war crimes trial after the war. This fact became known to President Truman as early as May of 1945. The Japanese monarchy was one of the oldest in all of history dating back to 660 B.C. The Japanese religion added the belief that all the Emperors were the direct descendants of the sun goddess, Amaterasu. The reigning Emperor Hirohito was the 124th in the direct line of descent. After the bombs were dropped on August 6 and 9 of 1945, and their surrender soon thereafter, the Japanese were allowed to keep their Emperor on the throne and he was not subjected to any war crimes trial. The Emperor, Hirohito, came on the throne in 1926 and continued in his position until his death in 1989. Since President Truman, in effect, accepted the conditional surrender offered by the Japanese as early as May of 1945, the question is posed, "Why then were the bombs dropped?"

The author Alperovitz gives us the answer in great detail which can only be summarized here, but he states, "We have noted a series of Japanese peace feelers in Switzerland which OSS Chief William Donovan reported to Truman in May and June [1945]. These suggested, even at this point, that the U.S. demand for unconditional surrender might well be the only serious obstacle to peace. At the center of the explorations, as we also saw, was Allen Dulles, chief ofOSS operations in Switzerland (and subsequently Director of the CIA). In his 1966 book The Secret Surrender, Dulles recalled that u2018On July 20, 1945, under instructions from Washington, I went to the Potsdam Conference and reported there to Secretary [of War] Stimson on what I had learned from Tokyo — they desired to surrender if they could retain the Emperor and their constitution as a basis for maintaining discipline and order in Japan after the devastating news of surrender became known to the Japanese people.'" It is documented by Alperovitz that Stimson reported this directly to Truman. Alperovitz furtherpoints out in detail the documentary proof that every top presidential civilian and military advisor, with the exception of James Byrnes, along with Prime Minister Churchill and his top British military leadership, urged Truman to revise the unconditional surrender policy so as to allow the Japanese to surrender and keep their Emperor. All this advice was given to Truman prior to the Potsdam Proclamation which occurred on July 26, 1945. This proclamation made a final demand upon Japan to surrender unconditionally or suffer drastic consequences.
READ the entire column here...
The Hiroshima Myth 8211 LewRockwell.com

These books are required reading, if you want the truth.
Amazon.com The Decision to Use the Atomic Bomb 9780679762850 Gar Alperovitz Books

Great Mistakes of the War Hanson W. Baldwin Amazon.com Books

The Secret Surrender The Classic Insider s Account of the Secret Plot to Surrender Northern Italy During WWII Allen W. Dulles 9781592283682 Amazon.com Books

Again, you ignore the other 3 conditions they wanted, no occupation, to keep what they had won in China, and no war crimes trials.

Kido proposed that Japan withdraw from the formerly European colonies it had occupied provided they were granted independence, that Japan disarm provided this not occur under Allied supervision, and that Japan for a time be "content with minimum defense." Kido's proposal did not contemplate Allied occupation of Japan, prosecution of war criminals or substantial change in Japan's system of government.

Surrender of Japan - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

I ignored it because it was not a condition in May 1945.

At a series of high-level meetings in May, the Big Six first seriously discussed ending the war—but none of them on terms that would have been acceptable to the Allies. Because anyone openly supporting Japanese surrender risked assassination by zealous army officers, the meetings were closed to anyone except the Big Six, the Emperor, and the Privy Seal—no second- or third-echelon officers could attend.[35] At these meetings, despite the dispatches from Japanese ambassador Satō in Moscow, only Foreign minister Tōgō realized that Roosevelt and Churchill might have already made concessions to Stalin to bring the Soviets into the war against Japan.[36] As a result of these meetings, Tōgō was authorized to approach the Soviet Union, seeking to maintain its neutrality, or (despite the very remote probability) to form an alliance.[37]