Dispelling the Big Government Myth

[dblack]

Capitalism isn't a method of production

Are you kidding me? Do we need to start at the beginning and discuss how value is created? No wonder you people don't understand socialism, you don't even understand capitalism.

You seem to at least have an awareness that a misunderstanding is involved. That's good.

 

[Tehon]

Capitalism isn't a method of production

Are you kidding me? Do we need to start at the beginning and discuss how value is created? No wonder you people don't understand socialism, you don't even understand capitalism.

You seem to at least have an awareness that a misunderstanding is involved. That's good.

Clearing up the misunderstanding is imperative. The basics must be understood before we can turn our attention back to the OP's whining about big government and who controls it.

 

[dblack]

Clearing up the misunderstanding is imperative. The basics must be understood before we can turn our attention back to the OP's whining about big government and who controls it.

I agree. So, can we start with clearing up what you meant by this?

The capitalist mode of production is the primary detriment to a "free" market as the capitalist seeks to use his capital to maximize his advantage.

... because that's where I stopped taking you seriously. Maybe we can start over.

 

[Tehon]

Clearing up the misunderstanding is imperative. The basics must be understood before we can turn our attention back to the OP's whining about big government and who controls it.

I agree. So, can we start with clearing up what you meant by this?

The capitalist mode of production is the primary detriment to a "free" market as the capitalist seeks to use his capital to maximize his advantage.

... because that's where I stopped taking you seriously. Maybe we can start over.

Are you not familiar with the concept of rent-seeking?

 

[dblack]

Clearing up the misunderstanding is imperative. The basics must be understood before we can turn our attention back to the OP's whining about big government and who controls it.

I agree. So, can we start with clearing up what you meant by this?

The capitalist mode of production is the primary detriment to a "free" market as the capitalist seeks to use his capital to maximize his advantage.

... because that's where I stopped taking you seriously. Maybe we can start over.

Are you not familiar with the concept of rent-seeking?

I am. But I have no idea what that has to do with your statement. Why did you put "free" in quotes? What does "capitalist mode of production" mean? (is it just referring to private ownership of property?)

 

[Tehon]

Clearing up the misunderstanding is imperative. The basics must be understood before we can turn our attention back to the OP's whining about big government and who controls it.

I agree. So, can we start with clearing up what you meant by this?

The capitalist mode of production is the primary detriment to a "free" market as the capitalist seeks to use his capital to maximize his advantage.

... because that's where I stopped taking you seriously. Maybe we can start over.

Are you not familiar with the concept of rent-seeking?

I am. But I have no idea what that has to do with your statement. Why did you put "free" in quotes? What does "capitalist mode of production" mean? (is it just referring to private ownership of property?)

Why did you put "free" in quotes?

Because the market isn't free. Never has been.

What does "capitalist mode of production" mean? (is it just referring to private ownership of property?)

It is the way we organize production. Private ownership of the means of production. Capital accumulation from surplus value being extracted from unpaid wage labor.
This is foreign to you?

 

[dblack]

Clearing up the misunderstanding is imperative. The basics must be understood before we can turn our attention back to the OP's whining about big government and who controls it.

I agree. So, can we start with clearing up what you meant by this?

The capitalist mode of production is the primary detriment to a "free" market as the capitalist seeks to use his capital to maximize his advantage.

... because that's where I stopped taking you seriously. Maybe we can start over.

Are you not familiar with the concept of rent-seeking?

I am. But I have no idea what that has to do with your statement. Why did you put "free" in quotes? What does "capitalist mode of production" mean? (is it just referring to private ownership of property?)

Why did you put "free" in quotes?

Because the market isn't free. Never has been.

What does "capitalist mode of production" mean? (is it just referring to private ownership of property?)

It is the way we organize production. Private ownership of the means of production. Capital accumulation from surplus value being extracted from unpaid wage labor.
This is foreign to you?

No, I've heard the socialist argument before, except ... "surplus value being extracted from unpaid wage labor"? What is that supposed to mean?

 

[dblack]

Why did you put "free" in quotes?

Because the market isn't free. Never has been.

Ok, so what would it take for a market to be free, in your view?

 

[2aguy]

I was reading a thread comment the other day from Mac1958 (I think) who said he viewed the left as being more "Big Government" and I wanted to challenge this myth. I understand where he gets his point but I think he's missing something.

The left only likes "Big Government" when THEY are in charge of it. The US just set a new record for government spending in a fiscal quarter. We literally had the "biggest" government in our nation's entire history under President Trump. If the left truly liked "Big Government" they'd be over the moon but they're not. In fact, to hear some tell it, the world is about to end. Never have we heard so many breathless cries of people suffering and dying.

So it's NOT "Big Government" they like... it's CONTROL of Big Government! When they are not in control of government, they want to obstruct it completely. They'll challenge executive powers, they'll challenge congressional majorities, they will defiantly "resist" anything the government tries to do... when they are not in power. They'll even seek to overturn the will of the people and undermine the electoral process.

There is one thing though you may have missed.....Trump is actually rolling back parts of Big Government.....and putting up blocks to the increase in Big Government.....

by trying his best to repeal obamacare, he is taking massive power away from the left....that is why they want control of healthcare...it gives them power to tax, to spend, to punish their enemies...all to give people healthcare.....not to mention the graft....

by rolling back regulations...he is taking power away from them.

By building the wall and reducing incoming illegal immigration, he is taking away democrat voters, which again, is a power source for them...

By appointing conservative justices...he is slowing down their ability to pass laws through court rulings which slows down their power...

Trump is not the biggest, big government guy out there.....

They were looking at having it all...control of everything if hilary had won the election....and then Trump won....

 

[2aguy]

Big government. We haz it.

The combined Federal, State and local government is about 40% of the GDP.

In most households rich or poor the cost of government is usually the largest single expenditure. More than food, more than housing, more than any other single expenditure. It is killing our productive economy.

According to the CIA Fact book The cost of combined government in the US is larger than the GDP of sll but two other countries on the face of the earth. The Federal government by itself is larger than all but three other economies.

Our country sucks because it spends so much money for government. In addition to that we are in debt more than the GDP of all but one other country on the face of the earth.

The Democrats love big government because it gives them power by creating a dependent voting base and enables their socialist agenda. Despicable, isn't it? The Republicans say they are anti big government but at the end of the day they just about as bad as the filthy Democrats.

"Abandon hope all ye that enter here"

Democrats are Neo-fuedalists......a new term I just coined.....they want the old days of Lords and serfs.......

 

[regent]

America has never had a pure economy. Always a mixture, and now, more so than ever. Most economies of industrial nations have mixed economies.

 

[Tehon]

Clearing up the misunderstanding is imperative. The basics must be understood before we can turn our attention back to the OP's whining about big government and who controls it.

I agree. So, can we start with clearing up what you meant by this?

The capitalist mode of production is the primary detriment to a "free" market as the capitalist seeks to use his capital to maximize his advantage.

... because that's where I stopped taking you seriously. Maybe we can start over.

Are you not familiar with the concept of rent-seeking?

I am. But I have no idea what that has to do with your statement. Why did you put "free" in quotes? What does "capitalist mode of production" mean? (is it just referring to private ownership of property?)

Why did you put "free" in quotes?

Because the market isn't free. Never has been.

What does "capitalist mode of production" mean? (is it just referring to private ownership of property?)

It is the way we organize production. Private ownership of the means of production. Capital accumulation from surplus value being extracted from unpaid wage labor.
This is foreign to you?

No, I've heard the socialist argument before, except ... "surplus value being extracted from unpaid wage labor"? What is that supposed to mean?

Oh my.

I will assume you to be a business owner. When you hire an employee you expect that employee to add value to whatever it is you produce. But you pay him a wage that is less than the value that he creates. In selling the product, you receive a value greater than you pay out to the employee, which creates a surplus for you and goes unpaid to the employee, the one who created the value.

 

[Tehon]

Why did you put "free" in quotes?

Because the market isn't free. Never has been.

Ok, so what would it take for a market to be free, in your view?

Free is whatever level society sets for the market. I don't get hung up on it. Capitalists always demand that the market be free or they start adding adjectives to capitalism. It's always a dead giveaway I'm dealing with an ideologue.

 

[dblack]

I agree. So, can we start with clearing up what you meant by this?

... because that's where I stopped taking you seriously. Maybe we can start over.

Are you not familiar with the concept of rent-seeking?

I am. But I have no idea what that has to do with your statement. Why did you put "free" in quotes? What does "capitalist mode of production" mean? (is it just referring to private ownership of property?)

Why did you put "free" in quotes?

Because the market isn't free. Never has been.

What does "capitalist mode of production" mean? (is it just referring to private ownership of property?)

It is the way we organize production. Private ownership of the means of production. Capital accumulation from surplus value being extracted from unpaid wage labor.
This is foreign to you?

No, I've heard the socialist argument before, except ... "surplus value being extracted from unpaid wage labor"? What is that supposed to mean?

Oh my.

I will assume you to be a business owner.

Why would you assume that? (I'm not)

When you hire an employee you expect that employee to add value to whatever it is you produce. But you pay him a wage that is less than the value that he creates. In selling the product, you receive a value greater than you pay out to the employee, which creates a surplus for you and goes unpaid to the employee, the one who created the value.

Oh, so "unpaid wage labor" was just a typo? I thought it seemed to contradict itself. You just meant not paid as much as you think they should be paid, eh?

 

[dblack]

Free is whatever level society sets for the market. I don't get hung up on it. Capitalists always demand that the market be free or they start adding adjectives to capitalism. It's always a dead giveaway I'm dealing with an ideologue.

i hear that. Phrases like "value extracted from labor" or "unpaid wage labor" are tells as well. Or when someone can't bear to type the word free without using quotes.

 

[Tehon]

Why would you assume that? (I'm not)

It's irrelevant. It was just so I could frame my answer to your question.

Oh, so "unpaid wage labor" was just a typo? I thought it seemed to contradict itself. You just meant not paid as much as you think they should be paid, eh?

Maybe I could of phrased it better.

But it is not how much I think should be paid. It is just a simple fact. The wage laborer creates more value than what he receives in compensation. The surplus value goes to the capitalist. This relationship is the foundation of the capitalist method of production. How do capitalists not understand this?

 

[BluesLegend]

Just the federal government alone vampire sucks $4 trillion dollars of our money each year, $40 trillion over the past 10 years. Look around what did we get for our $40 trillion dollars? Then there's the $20 trillion in debt we are saddled with thanks to big government.

 

[Tehon]

Free is whatever level society sets for the market. I don't get hung up on it. Capitalists always demand that the market be free or they start adding adjectives to capitalism. It's always a dead giveaway I'm dealing with an ideologue.

i hear that. Phrases like "value extracted from labor" or "unpaid wage labor" are tells as well. Or when someone can't bear to type the word free without using quotes.

Fair enough.

I am just answering your questions about the capitalist mode of production. I am not defending socialism.

 

[dblack]

Why would you assume that? (I'm not)

It's irrelevant. It was just so I could frame my answer to your question.

Oh, so "unpaid wage labor" was just a typo? I thought it seemed to contradict itself. You just meant not paid as much as you think they should be paid, eh?

Maybe I could of phrased it better.

But it is not how much I think should be paid. It is just a simple fact. The wage laborer creates more value than what he receives in compensation. The surplus value goes to the capitalist. This relationship is the foundation of the capitalist method of production. How do capitalists not understand this?

Well, let's understand it together! I work for a software consultancy that farms me, and my fellow wage slaves, out to clients who need help with software projects in trouble. My boss, the owner of the company, charges clients roughly three times my hourly wage for my time. By your logic she's abusing me (I feel so extracted!!). But the thing is, I've tried doing my own contracting before, and it was a pain in the ass. I had to constantly be doing my own networking and sales to ensure that I would have work. And I fucking hate sales work. I had to supply all my own equipment and pay for all my own expenses. None of it was fun. The only part I really enjoyed was writing code, and when I was "my own boss" that amounted to about 10% of what I spent my time on.

So, I'm thrilled that my boss is extracting value from my work, and that I can do that work free from the distractions of running a business. I'm hope she's a fucking millionaire already.

 

[Tehon]

Why would you assume that? (I'm not)

It's irrelevant. It was just so I could frame my answer to your question.

Oh, so "unpaid wage labor" was just a typo? I thought it seemed to contradict itself. You just meant not paid as much as you think they should be paid, eh?

Maybe I could of phrased it better.

But it is not how much I think should be paid. It is just a simple fact. The wage laborer creates more value than what he receives in compensation. The surplus value goes to the capitalist. This relationship is the foundation of the capitalist method of production. How do capitalists not understand this?

Well, let's understand it together! I work for a software consultancy that farms me, and my fellow wage slaves, out to clients who need help with software projects in trouble. My boss, the owner of the company, charges clients roughly three times my hourly wage for my time. By your logic she's abusing me (I feel so extracted!!). But the thing is, I've tried doing my own contracting before, and it was a pain in the ass. I had to constantly be doing my own networking and sales to ensure that I would have work. And I fucking hate sales work. I had to supply all my own equipment and pay for all my own expenses. None of it was fun. The only part I really enjoyed was writing code, and when I was "my own boss" that amounted to about 10% of what I spent my time on.

So, I'm thrilled that my boss is extracting value from my work, and that I can do that work free from the distractions of running a business. I'm hope she's a fucking millionaire already.

Hey, if you are happy with it that is fine. Just stop bitching that the government is not responsive to the wishes of the people that don't have the capital to invest in the politicians.

I think there is a better way that doesn't require you to do all the work involved and still leaves everyone in a better position. Well, everyone except the capitalist.