Dispelling the Big Government Myth

[dblack]

That's why a "system" is needed to ensure FREE MARKET capitalism.

What "system" ensures free market capitalism? How does it work?

Any system that ensures a free society will also ensure a free market. As long as government isn't interfering with trade.

 

[Tehon]

That's why a "system" is needed to ensure FREE MARKET capitalism.

What "system" ensures free market capitalism? How does it work?

Any system that ensures a free society will also ensure a free market. As long as government isn't interfering with trade.

So free markets are secured by the will of the people?

 

[g5000]

I was reading a thread comment the other day from Mac1958 (I think) who said he viewed the left as being more "Big Government" and I wanted to challenge this myth. I understand where he gets his point but I think he's missing something.

The left only likes "Big Government" when THEY are in charge of it. The US just set a new record for government spending in a fiscal quarter. We literally had the "biggest" government in our nation's entire history under President Trump. If the left truly liked "Big Government" they'd be over the moon but they're not. In fact, to hear some tell it, the world is about to end. Never have we heard so many breathless cries of people suffering and dying.

So it's NOT "Big Government" they like... it's CONTROL of Big Government! When they are not in control of government, they want to obstruct it completely. They'll challenge executive powers, they'll challenge congressional majorities, they will defiantly "resist" anything the government tries to do... when they are not in power. They'll even seek to overturn the will of the people and undermine the electoral process.

It takes a very special kind of gullibility to parrot the meme that Republicans are for small government and Democrats are for big government.

It also takes a special kind of blindness, a very willful kind of blindness, to avoid seeing that both parties grow government when they are in power.

Christ, the last Republican President create a massive police state infrastructure with Cabinet level status! And he and his Republican Congress created a whole new unfunded multi-trillion dollar government medical entitlement, just to get the senior vote in 2004. And we are stuck with that debt-exploding mess to this day. It has added more to our debt than ObamaCare!

 

[Boss]

That's why a "system" is needed to ensure FREE MARKET capitalism.

What "system" ensures free market capitalism? How does it work?

The free market system, that's why it's called that. This system (set of things working together) is comprised of the following: Free market capitalism, free enterprise, constitutional rights protecting individual liberty and private property ownership.

Do we have this purely and constantly in the US? Of course we don't... purity and absolutes do not exist in socio-economic systems outside of My Little Pony land. The idea is to achieve this as much as possible. To the extent we need government it should encourage and enable this system as opposed to destroying it through progressive collectivism.

How does it work? Well, it releases the human spirit at it's fullest potential. This enables previously impossible things to be accomplished. And that is why it produces more millionaires and billionaires, and lifts more people out of poverty, than any economic system man has ever devised. There isn't even a close second.

 

[dblack]

That's why a "system" is needed to ensure FREE MARKET capitalism.

What "system" ensures free market capitalism? How does it work?

Any system that ensures a free society will also ensure a free market. As long as government isn't interfering with trade.

So free markets are secured by the will of the people?

No. Freedom should never be subject to a vote.

 

[Boss]

It takes a very special kind of gullibility to parrot the meme that Republicans are for small government and Democrats are for big government.

I never said "Republicans are for small government!" In many cases, they are just as bad as democrats... they are Progressives. They favor Big Government but they want to be in charge of it. Absolute power corrupts absolutely, it doesn't discriminate based on party affiliations.

 

[g5000]

It takes a very special kind of gullibility to parrot the meme that Republicans are for small government and Democrats are for big government.

I never said "Republicans are for small government!" In many cases, they are just as bad as democrats... they are Progressives. They favor Big Government but they want to be in charge of it. Absolute power corrupts absolutely, it doesn't discriminate based on party affiliations.

I was not leveling that accusation at you. I was commiserating with you.

 

[Boss]

I was not leveling that accusation at you. I was commiserating with you.

Thanks, I was just clarifying my position. As you pointed out, George W. Bush expanded the size and scope of government tremendously.... if that's what the left wants, they should've loved them some Dubya! But it's not about Big Government, it's about controlling it.

 

[Tehon]

That's why a "system" is needed to ensure FREE MARKET capitalism.

What "system" ensures free market capitalism? How does it work?

Any system that ensures a free society will also ensure a free market. As long as government isn't interfering with trade.

So free markets are secured by the will of the people?

No. Freedom should never be subject to a vote.

Our system of government, the system that ensures our free society, was voted into law. Granted by the will of the people.

I will ask again. What system ensures free markets? Any isn't really an answer.

 

[task0778]

I was not leveling that accusation at you. I was commiserating with you.

Thanks, I was just clarifying my position. As you pointed out, George W. Bush expanded the size and scope of government tremendously.... if that's what the left wants, they should've loved them some Dubya! But it's not about Big Government, it's about controlling it.

Big Gov't is about controlling US. These days the GOP is little better than the Dems when it comes to limiting the size and scope of gov't.

 

[Tehon]

That's why a "system" is needed to ensure FREE MARKET capitalism.

What "system" ensures free market capitalism? How does it work?

The free market system, that's why it's called that. This system (set of things working together) is comprised of the following: Free market capitalism, free enterprise, constitutional rights protecting individual liberty and private property ownership.

Do we have this purely and constantly in the US? Of course we don't... purity and absolutes do not exist in socio-economic systems outside of My Little Pony land. The idea is to achieve this as much as possible. To the extent we need government it should encourage and enable this system as opposed to destroying it through progressive collectivism.

How does it work? Well, it releases the human spirit at it's fullest potential. This enables previously impossible things to be accomplished. And that is why it produces more millionaires and billionaires, and lifts more people out of poverty, than any economic system man has ever devised. There isn't even a close second.

So there is no system that ensures free markets. The degree to which markets ought to be free is purely a political concern and subjective. So we see that there is no free market system, it's a myth. Capitalism is simply a mode of production.

 

[task0778]

That's why a "system" is needed to ensure FREE MARKET capitalism.

What "system" ensures free market capitalism? How does it work?

Any system that ensures a free society will also ensure a free market. As long as government isn't interfering with trade.

So free markets are secured by the will of the people?

No. Freedom should never be subject to a vote.

Our system of government, the system that ensures our free society, was voted into law. Granted by the will of the people.

I will ask again. What system ensures free markets? Any isn't really an answer.

There is NO system of gov't that ensures free markets, for the simple reason that human beings are involved in both. History shows us that free market capitalism has to have some constraints to protect everybody from the unscrupulous among us. The problem is to make sure the benefits of free markets are optimized while the liabilities are constrained as much as possible or practical.

 

[Boss]

So there is no system that ensures free markets. The degree to which markets ought to be free is purely a political concern and subjective. So we see that there is no free market system, it's a myth. Capitalism is simply a mode of production.

You're looking for absolutes like some prepubescent girl dreaming of My Little Pony land. It's like asking "what relationship ensures true love?" You can live in a fantasy where such things are imaginable but it's just not reality. Just as you can keep on stubbornly repeating that capitalism is a mode of production. You're just being ignorant.

There IS a "capitalistic" mode of production but that's not what is meant by capitalism. In a free market system like we have, there are MANY competing modes of production. The Amish exclusively utilize a "communal" mode of production.... doesn't make it "communism!" You're stuck on this idiotic notion because you're a dreamer who believes in fairy tales, magical unicorns and rainbow sparkles.

You've read a book or listened to some other moron who's read a book and convinced yourself that Marx was a genius with a great idea. The problem is, history shows his ideas fail in application with catastrophic results. It has left over 150 million dead people in it's wake.... but don't let that interfere with your fantasy.

 

[Tehon]

You're looking for absolutes like some prepubescent girl dreaming of My Little Pony land.

Wrong bud. I clearly understand that the market is subject to the will of the people.

You claimed that a system was needed to protect free market capitalism from the ravages of capitalists. Lol.
I asked what that system is, to which you responded "the free market system". Lol.
Of which you state free market capitalism is a part. Lol.
I don't think you know what you are talking about. In fact I'm sure you don't.

 

[Boss]

Wrong bud. I clearly understand that the market is subject to the will of the people.

You claimed that a system was needed to protect free market capitalism from the ravages of capitalists. Lol.
I asked what that system is, to which you responded "the free market system". Lol.
Of which you state free market capitalism is a part. Lol.
I don't think you know what you are talking about. In fact I'm sure you don't.

The market IS the people. It's not "subject to the will" unless there is freedom of the individual. The market in China or North Korea is subject to the will of the state or tyrant ruler.

I don't understand what all the "lol-ing" is about. Free market capitalism is different than anarcho-capitalism or state capitalism and it's not the same thing as crony corporatism. You can confuse all of these and pretend they are the same thing but you're being simple minded.

We established a small limited federal government precisely so it could ensure and foster a vibrant free market economy. The bigger you grow government the more power it has over the individual and the more it hampers free market capitalism.

 

[Tehon]

The market IS the people. It's not "subject to the will" unless there is freedom of the individual. The market in China or North Korea is subject to the will of the state or tyrant ruler.

The market is not people. It is the place where people go to buy and sell goods and services. And yes, even in America it is subject to the will of the state. Theoretically the state represents the will of the people, therefore the market is subject to the will of the people. This is all basic stuff. I'm shocked that you are having such difficulty with it. And yes I find it a bit humorous.

 

[Tehon]

What "system" ensures free market capitalism? How does it work?

Any system that ensures a free society will also ensure a free market. As long as government isn't interfering with trade.

So free markets are secured by the will of the people?

No. Freedom should never be subject to a vote.

Our system of government, the system that ensures our free society, was voted into law. Granted by the will of the people.

I will ask again. What system ensures free markets? Any isn't really an answer.

There is NO system of gov't that ensures free markets, for the simple reason that human beings are involved in both. History shows us that free market capitalism has to have some constraints to protect everybody from the unscrupulous among us. The problem is to make sure the benefits of free markets are optimized while the liabilities are constrained as much as possible or practical.

The problem is to make sure the benefits of free markets are optimized while the liabilities are constrained as much as possible or practical.

The problem is that benefits and liabilities are subjective. That and our government is owned and operated by the corporate world.

 

[task0778]

Any system that ensures a free society will also ensure a free market. As long as government isn't interfering with trade.

So free markets are secured by the will of the people?

No. Freedom should never be subject to a vote.

Our system of government, the system that ensures our free society, was voted into law. Granted by the will of the people.

I will ask again. What system ensures free markets? Any isn't really an answer.

There is NO system of gov't that ensures free markets, for the simple reason that human beings are involved in both. History shows us that free market capitalism has to have some constraints to protect everybody from the unscrupulous among us. The problem is to make sure the benefits of free markets are optimized while the liabilities are constrained as much as possible or practical.

The problem is to make sure the benefits of free markets are optimized while the liabilities are constrained as much as possible or practical.

The problem is that benefits and liabilities are subjective. That and our government is owned and operated by the corporate world.

"The problem is that benefits and liabilities are subjective" Which is why it ain't easy to regulate a free market capitalist economy.

"That and our government is owned and operated by the corporate world." Hard to believe Barack Obama would have been elected, and even worse, re-elected if this were true.

 

[koshergrl]

I was reading a thread comment the other day from Mac1958 (I think) who said he viewed the left as being more "Big Government" and I wanted to challenge this myth. I understand where he gets his point but I think he's missing something.

The left only likes "Big Government" when THEY are in charge of it. The US just set a new record for government spending in a fiscal quarter. We literally had the "biggest" government in our nation's entire history under President Trump. If the left truly liked "Big Government" they'd be over the moon but they're not. In fact, to hear some tell it, the world is about to end. Never have we heard so many breathless cries of people suffering and dying.

So it's NOT "Big Government" they like... it's CONTROL of Big Government! When they are not in control of government, they want to obstruct it completely. They'll challenge executive powers, they'll challenge congressional majorities, they will defiantly "resist" anything the government tries to do... when they are not in power. They'll even seek to overturn the will of the people and undermine the electoral process.

No, they like big government.
They create these huge unnecessary and often harmful programs that interject more worthless middle men into bloated agencies. Seriously, I have done government committee articles where the #1 news items were "we created a subcommittee and figured out how to create certificates for committee members".

 

[Tehon]

So free markets are secured by the will of the people?

No. Freedom should never be subject to a vote.

Our system of government, the system that ensures our free society, was voted into law. Granted by the will of the people.

I will ask again. What system ensures free markets? Any isn't really an answer.

There is NO system of gov't that ensures free markets, for the simple reason that human beings are involved in both. History shows us that free market capitalism has to have some constraints to protect everybody from the unscrupulous among us. The problem is to make sure the benefits of free markets are optimized while the liabilities are constrained as much as possible or practical.

The problem is to make sure the benefits of free markets are optimized while the liabilities are constrained as much as possible or practical.

The problem is that benefits and liabilities are subjective. That and our government is owned and operated by the corporate world.

"The problem is that benefits and liabilities are subjective" Which is why it ain't easy to regulate a free market capitalist economy.

"That and our government is owned and operated by the corporate world." Hard to believe Barack Obama would have been elected, and even worse, re-elected if this were true.

Hard to believe Barack Obama would have been elected, and even worse, re-elected if this were true.

I don't think Obama was bad for business, generally speaking. Can't say he didn't try to give them the Trans Pacific deal.