Do You Support The "Gun Show Loophole?"

[Erand7899]

That's correct, licensed dealers are required to implement a background check. Jimmy-bob-bobby-jimmy that has a booth at the same show that is selling some of his arsenal doesn't have to ask any questions or require a background check to whom buys his firearms. Just the same as those that buy from a classified ad or other private sale.

If Jimmy Bob wants to sell his guns outside the gun show there is no requirement for a background check either. That means him doing so at the gun show is not a loophole.

Game, set, match.

That's the point. If Jimmy-bobby wants to sell his guns at the show or on a classified ad, the laws are the same, no background check required.

Check mate.

No check mate, you were intellectually fried. Private sales between citizens has never been a problem requiring correction, and has absolutely no real bearing on the illegal gun market.

What most of you mental midgets fail to understand is that guns are not the problem. People are the problem, and that is where the answer lies. Few, if any, of the mass killers that have made the news lately, would have had any difficulty passing a background check.

 

[OriginalShroom]

I'm not the one claiming that so many guns are sold at gunshows without background checks by private citizens.

You are.

You should have the data to back up your claim for without any supporting data that either shows that you are:

1 - merely repeating what others have said without verifing it for yourself,

2 - trying to blow smoke up everyone's ass,

3 - making things up,

4 - lying,

5 - and / or just being a typical left wing gun grabber who dances around with the blood of dead children on your hands, happy that you finally have something to use to advance your Un-Constituitonal agenda.


Personally, I think it is a combination of all 5, not because I know you, but because I have known people just like you since the mid-80 to late 80's when I first started discussing politics on-line.

Of course, if you post back that you are not a comibination of all 5, but are just one of them, I will give you the benefit of the doubt as I have not caught you in a lie about yourself yet. Spreading false information, yes, You have been doing a lot of that... But if you honestly believe it, than all I can say is that you are wrong and present you with the evidence to support my position, but I won't say you are a liar.

Here's a study from UC Davis:

http://www.ucdmc.ucdavis.edu/vprp/pdf/IGS/IGScoverprefweb.pdf

I imagine there'd be more studies out there if Congress hadn't forbidden the federal government from conducting such studies in order to help out the Gun Industry lobbyists.

From your linked report, page 2.

But less than 2% of felons incarcerated for crimes involving guns acquired those guns themselves at gun shows.

Page 4 and 5

From 2004 to 2006, gun show operations accounted for 3.2% of all trafficking investigations initiated by ATF and affected 3.3% of the gun shows estimated to have
occurred during those years.

WOW Less than 3.5% involved Gun Shows. That mean 96.5% of trafficking didn't involve gun shows.

 

[OriginalShroom]

And, here is a point that I'd like to know the answer to:

Why are private sellers exempt from the same sort of rules that licensed gun sellers must follow in the first place?

The only reason I can see for this loophole to exist is to put guns in the hands of people that shouldn't have guns.

Then you are not looking very hard. Does the Government require the private seller of an automobile to copy the drivers license and proof of insurance when selling a car as Dealers are required to do?

Does the Government require private dealers to offer a limited warranty on a car as they do Dealers?

 

[OriginalShroom]

That study says that gun shows account for less than 10% of all gun sales. It then estimates that 66% of sales at gun shows are made by licensed dealers.

That would mean that 3.4% of guns sold in this country do not go through background checks. That is slightly less than the 40% figure you are attempting to defend.

It then goes on to reference the same 20 year old numbers from the ATF that you insist prove your point.

It also states that 85% of guns used in crimes were resold through private sales at least once.

That's 85%.

Privates sales don't all happen at the Gun Show.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Based on 20 year old numbers.

It also states that 85% of guns used in crimes were resold through private sales at least once.

That's 85%.

Sigh.

The report starts with the claim that gun shows are an important avenue in gun trafficking, and then reports that only 2% of felons actually in prison had a gun that was in any way tied to a gun show.

That is 2%.

Shouldn't the stats be about felons with gun related crimes and not just felons?

Really deep sigh.

That was the stat for felonies involving guns.

You should read the paper. You are the one that pretends you are smarter than everyone else on the board, but you won't take the time to read the only informative thing anyone from your side of the argument presented.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Why bother at all, to have a background check if you leave such enormous loopholes such as sales at gunshows? It makes no sense.

An enormous loophole that makes up about 3.4% of gun sales according to the PDF posted by someone on your side of the debate.

It's enormous enough when you consider the ramifications of it:

From 2004 to 2006, ATF conducted surveillance and undercover investigations at 195 gun shows (approximately 2% of all shows). Specific targeting of suspected individuals (77%) resulted in 121 individual arrests and 5,345 firearms seizures. Seventy nine of the 121 ATF operation plans were known suspects previously under investigation.[1]

Additionally, ATF Field Offices report that:

Between 2002 and 2005, more than 400 guns legally purchased at gun shows from licensed dealers in the city of Richmond, Virginia, were later recovered in connection with criminal activity. Bouchard notes that, "These figures do not take into account firearms that may have been sold at Richmond area gun shows by unlicensed sellers, as these transactions are more difficult to track."[3] It is noteworthy that the "in connection with criminal activity" category includes stolen guns later recovered from burglaries, but the report does not specify how many guns in the 400 gun figure cited were not guns used in the commission of a crime, but that were rather the fruits of criminal activity.

The Department of Justice reports, "after reviewing hundreds of trace reports associated with guns used in crime recovered in the New Orleans area and interviewing known gang members and other criminals, ATF Special Agents identified area gun shows as a source used by local gang members and other criminals to obtain guns."[1]

In 2003 and 2004, the San Francisco ATF Field Division conducted six general operations at Reno, Nevada, gun shows to investigate interstate firearms trafficking. During these operations, "agents purchased firearms and identified violations related to "off paper" sales, sales to out-of-state residents, and dealing in firearms without a license." The "ATF seized or purchased 400 firearms before making arrests and executing search warrants, which resulted in the seizure of an additional 600 firearms and the recovery of explosives."[1]

ATF's Columbus Field Division conducted its anti-trafficking operations based on intelligence from Cleveland police that "many of the guns recovered in high-crime areas of the city had been purchased at local gun shows." Subsequent gun show sting operations resulted in the seizure of "5 guns, one indictment, and two pending indictments for felony possession of a firearm." The state of Ohio is one of the top ten source states for recovered guns used in crime.[1]

The ATF's Phoenix Field Division reported that "many gun shows attracted large numbers of gang members from Mexico and California. They often bought large quantities of assault weapons and smuggled them into Mexico or transported them to California."[1] Garen Wintemute, a professor at the University of California at Davis, calls Arizona and Texas a "gunrunner's paradise."[26]

Point being, it seems requiring a background check wouldn't be that difficult. If small time sellers can get apps to allow their smart phones to take credit cards - they can surely also access the necessary contact to do a background check.

The point actually is that the ATF already knew these people were breaking the law.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

You don't know, so what's the difference. Gun shows aren't all the same. The real point is people who oppose universal or gun show background checks aren't interested in solving the problems of our open gun market.

The potential exists to resell a weapon at a gun show to someone who can't pass a background check and just because it's illegal doesn't mean there is a way of catching someone doing it or that a gun show doesn't promote doing it.

Sensible gun control laws would require registration of all firearms from the time of manufacturing and sales involving transfer of registration, which would always require a background check. Let me explain it in simple terms! Every gun from the time of manufacture is registered with an ID. The registration can be transferred to an organization or individual, but the organization has to be something like the military or law enforcement. Every gun is registered and checked each year to determine the same person owns it. The rifled firearms are periodically ballistics tested with the bullets being sent to FBI for scanning and the data is put in a data base. The FBI can work out a quick scan process. People would think twice before using a gun in a crime and the reason to possess a gun on the streets of our cities would fade away.

It's the nature of criminals to draw heat, so possessing an illegal firearm should be dealt with severely, when they've drawn heat. Let's say the cops find a firearm in the residence of someone suspected for a crime. I doubt a criminal wipes down his weapon everytime he touches it, so fingerprints can be lifted connecting a person to the weapon. A weapon could be associated with any type of crime the police would get a search warrant for and listed on the warrant.

I haven't been advocating these piecemeal, feelgood changes in the law, but have advocated a comprehensive approach that reduces gun violence and discourages illegal ownership of guns. Closing the gun show loophole is just a small part of what should be done.

And criminals will obey all of that.

Criminals aren't given much choice when using the gun allows it to be traced to them. When possessing an unregistered gun has it's own punishment, it isn't worth having around.

Laws accomplish magic now? How the fuck do you expect any law to trace a gun back to the person who used it? Even if we ignore the fact that ballistics only works in the movies, the best if can do is trace a bullet back to the gun that fired it. There is no way it will tell you who was holding the gun.

Before you start sputtering about fingerprints, it is actually pretty hard to pull prints off of gun that is properly cared for because fingerprints depend on leaving iol depositis on a clean surface, and guns, if they are properly cared for, are pretty oily.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

And, here is a point that I'd like to know the answer to:

Why are private sellers exempt from the same sort of rules that licensed gun sellers must follow in the first place?

Better question: Why are dealers and law abiding citizens put through the whole background check Kabuki dance, when it's demonstrably ineffective at keeping firearms out of the hands of criminals?

The only reason I can see for this loophole to exist is to put guns in the hands of people that shouldn't have guns.

Then I would suggest that you have a severe, quite possibly debilitating, case of myopia.

How can you claim it is ineffective? How can you know what the gun crime rate would be without any background checks?

I can claim it is ineffective because it did not stop Dorner.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

I'm not the one claiming that so many guns are sold at gunshows without background checks by private citizens.

You are.

You should have the data to back up your claim for without any supporting data that either shows that you are:

1 - merely repeating what others have said without verifing it for yourself,

2 - trying to blow smoke up everyone's ass,

3 - making things up,

4 - lying,

5 - and / or just being a typical left wing gun grabber who dances around with the blood of dead children on your hands, happy that you finally have something to use to advance your Un-Constituitonal agenda.


Personally, I think it is a combination of all 5, not because I know you, but because I have known people just like you since the mid-80 to late 80's when I first started discussing politics on-line.

Of course, if you post back that you are not a comibination of all 5, but are just one of them, I will give you the benefit of the doubt as I have not caught you in a lie about yourself yet. Spreading false information, yes, You have been doing a lot of that... But if you honestly believe it, than all I can say is that you are wrong and present you with the evidence to support my position, but I won't say you are a liar.

Here's a study from UC Davis:

http://www.ucdmc.ucdavis.edu/vprp/pdf/IGS/IGScoverprefweb.pdf

I imagine there'd be more studies out there if Congress hadn't forbidden the federal government from conducting such studies in order to help out the Gun Industry lobbyists.

From your linked report, page 2.

But less than 2% of felons incarcerated for crimes involving guns acquired those guns themselves at gun shows.

Page 4 and 5

From 2004 to 2006, gun show operations accounted for 3.2% of all trafficking investigations initiated by ATF and affected 3.3% of the gun shows estimated to have
occurred during those years.

WOW Less than 3.5% involved Gun Shows. That mean 96.5% of trafficking didn't involve gun shows.

I already pointed that out, and was ignored. One guy did try to throw another stat at me that I easily disproved, but they don't care about the truth.

 

[Bfgrn]

Misusing a quote does not prove anything other than your inability to comprehend English.

Misusing? Thomas Jefferson couldn't be any more clear. He made similar statements.

"The equal rights of man, and the happiness of every individual, are now acknowledged to be the only legitimate objects of government. Modern times have the signal advantage, too, of having discovered the only device by which these rights can be secured, to wit: government by the people, acting not in person, but by representatives chosen by themselves, that is to say, by every man of ripe years and sane mind, who contributes either by his purse or person to the support of his country." --Thomas Jefferson to A. Coray, 1823. ME 15:482

"I willingly acquiesce in the institutions of my country, perfect or imperfect, and think it a duty to leave their modifications to those who are to live under them and are to participate of the good or evil they may produce. The present generation has the same right of self-government which the past one has exercised for itself." --Thomas Jefferson to John Hampden Pleasants, 1824. ME 16:29

"What is true of every member of the society, individually, is true of them all collectively; since the rights of the whole can be no more than the sum of the rights of the individuals." --Thomas Jefferson to James Madison, 1789. ME 7:455, Papers 15:393

"To unequal privileges among members of the same society the spirit of our nation is, with one accord, adverse." --Thomas Jefferson to Hugh White, 1801. ME 10:258

"The most sacred of the duties of a government [is] to do equal and impartial justice to all its citizens." --Thomas Jefferson: Note in Destutt de Tracy, "Political Economy," 1816. ME 14:465

Jefferson tree of liberty is my favorite of Jefferson's quote, why don't you use it

Is that what you right wing scum thought of when you heard about the brutal murder of those twenty 6 and 7 year old beautiful children?

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Misusing? Thomas Jefferson couldn't be any more clear. He made similar statements.

"The equal rights of man, and the happiness of every individual, are now acknowledged to be the only legitimate objects of government. Modern times have the signal advantage, too, of having discovered the only device by which these rights can be secured, to wit: government by the people, acting not in person, but by representatives chosen by themselves, that is to say, by every man of ripe years and sane mind, who contributes either by his purse or person to the support of his country." --Thomas Jefferson to A. Coray, 1823. ME 15:482

"I willingly acquiesce in the institutions of my country, perfect or imperfect, and think it a duty to leave their modifications to those who are to live under them and are to participate of the good or evil they may produce. The present generation has the same right of self-government which the past one has exercised for itself." --Thomas Jefferson to John Hampden Pleasants, 1824. ME 16:29

"What is true of every member of the society, individually, is true of them all collectively; since the rights of the whole can be no more than the sum of the rights of the individuals." --Thomas Jefferson to James Madison, 1789. ME 7:455, Papers 15:393

"To unequal privileges among members of the same society the spirit of our nation is, with one accord, adverse." --Thomas Jefferson to Hugh White, 1801. ME 10:258

"The most sacred of the duties of a government [is] to do equal and impartial justice to all its citizens." --Thomas Jefferson: Note in Destutt de Tracy, "Political Economy," 1816. ME 14:465

Jefferson tree of liberty is my favorite of Jefferson's quote, why don't you use it

Is that what you right wing scum thought of when you heard about the brutal murder of those twenty 6 and 7 year old beautiful children?

Those children are what you think of every single time you try to argue about the 2nd Amendment. Is that because your intellectual capacity won't let you admit you are wrong about everything?

Have you thought about the fact that Jefferson actually thought people should conduct an armed rebellion once every few years was a good idea, or do you only like the quotes that are easy for you to misinterpret?

 

[Oddball]

Misusing? Thomas Jefferson couldn't be any more clear. He made similar statements.

"The equal rights of man, and the happiness of every individual, are now acknowledged to be the only legitimate objects of government. Modern times have the signal advantage, too, of having discovered the only device by which these rights can be secured, to wit: government by the people, acting not in person, but by representatives chosen by themselves, that is to say, by every man of ripe years and sane mind, who contributes either by his purse or person to the support of his country." --Thomas Jefferson to A. Coray, 1823. ME 15:482

"I willingly acquiesce in the institutions of my country, perfect or imperfect, and think it a duty to leave their modifications to those who are to live under them and are to participate of the good or evil they may produce. The present generation has the same right of self-government which the past one has exercised for itself." --Thomas Jefferson to John Hampden Pleasants, 1824. ME 16:29

"What is true of every member of the society, individually, is true of them all collectively; since the rights of the whole can be no more than the sum of the rights of the individuals." --Thomas Jefferson to James Madison, 1789. ME 7:455, Papers 15:393

"To unequal privileges among members of the same society the spirit of our nation is, with one accord, adverse." --Thomas Jefferson to Hugh White, 1801. ME 10:258

"The most sacred of the duties of a government [is] to do equal and impartial justice to all its citizens." --Thomas Jefferson: Note in Destutt de Tracy, "Political Economy," 1816. ME 14:465

Jefferson tree of liberty is my favorite of Jefferson's quote, why don't you use it

Is that what you right wing scum thought of when you heard about the brutal murder of those twenty 6 and 7 year old beautiful children?

Yet you don't seem to give a flying fuck about the same number of beautiful children being killed in places like DC, Chicago and LA every month.

Nope...Opportunist dickweeds like you are all about the big easily exploitable massacres, rather than the places where your fascistic gun control laws are towering failures.

 

[Dubya]

And criminals will obey all of that.

Criminals aren't given much choice when using the gun allows it to be traced to them. When possessing an unregistered gun has it's own punishment, it isn't worth having around.

Laws accomplish magic now? How the fuck do you expect any law to trace a gun back to the person who used it? Even if we ignore the fact that ballistics only works in the movies, the best if can do is trace a bullet back to the gun that fired it. There is no way it will tell you who was holding the gun.

Before you start sputtering about fingerprints, it is actually pretty hard to pull prints off of gun that is properly cared for because fingerprints depend on leaving iol depositis on a clean surface, and guns, if they are properly cared for, are pretty oily.

Eventually all there will be is registered firearms. All of this has been explained, but you are one of those people who tries to take each sentence and windbag it. I've even explained details of how to change laws that discourage someone stealing a gun. I've explained that murders are seldom planned assassinations. Mayor Bloomberg tasked the cops of New York City to get the guns off the streets and they would approach a suspect in safe numbers and search them if they suspected them of having a gun. When people are caught with guns on the streets and thrown in jail, it sends a message to not have guns on the street. As the homicide rate declines, more police resources can be allocated to a homicide and that increases the chances of catching the criminal. The areas with more homicides can be focused on to remove the guns from those streets. When a bunch of street gangs are packing guns, there are a lot of killings and when they aren't the killings drop. The gangs may still fight in less lethal ways, but fewer people are killed. When people are shooting it up in the streets there are a lot of accidental shootings.

I think you could lift a fingerprint off the average gun of a criminal. Gun that are properly cared for are oiled and put up. Guns that are carried around tend to lose their oil.

 

[Dubya]

Better question: Why are dealers and law abiding citizens put through the whole background check Kabuki dance, when it's demonstrably ineffective at keeping firearms out of the hands of criminals?



Then I would suggest that you have a severe, quite possibly debilitating, case of myopia.

How can you claim it is ineffective? How can you know what the gun crime rate would be without any background checks?

I can claim it is ineffective because it did not stop Dorner.

Did Dorner kill everybody killed with a gun last year?

 

[Oddball]

Criminals aren't given much choice when using the gun allows it to be traced to them. When possessing an unregistered gun has it's own punishment, it isn't worth having around.

Laws accomplish magic now? How the fuck do you expect any law to trace a gun back to the person who used it? Even if we ignore the fact that ballistics only works in the movies, the best if can do is trace a bullet back to the gun that fired it. There is no way it will tell you who was holding the gun.

Before you start sputtering about fingerprints, it is actually pretty hard to pull prints off of gun that is properly cared for because fingerprints depend on leaving iol depositis on a clean surface, and guns, if they are properly cared for, are pretty oily.

Eventually all there will be is registered firearms. All of this has been explained, but you are one of those people who tries to take each sentence and windbag it. I've even explained details of how to change laws that discourage someone stealing a gun. I've explained that murders are seldom planned assassinations. Mayor Bloomberg tasked the cops of New York City to get the guns off the streets and they would approach a suspect in safe numbers and search them if they suspected them of having a gun. When people are caught with guns on the streets and thrown in jail, it sends a message to not have guns on the street. As the homicide rate declines, more police resources can be allocated to a homicide and that increases the chances of catching the criminal. The areas with more homicides can be focused on to remove the guns from those streets. When a bunch of street gangs are packing guns, there are a lot of killings and when they aren't the killings drop. The gangs may still fight in less lethal ways, but fewer people are killed. When people are shooting it up in the streets there are a lot of accidental shootings.

I think you could lift a fingerprint off the average gun of a criminal. Gun that are properly cared for are oiled and put up. Guns that are carried around tend to lose their oil.

You really think that criminals give a shit about using their weapons for more than a few (if that many) criminal acts?

Dude, button it...It has become completely obvious that you are completely over your head and have NFI what you're yammering about.

 

[Bfgrn]

Jefferson tree of liberty is my favorite of Jefferson's quote, why don't you use it

Is that what you right wing scum thought of when you heard about the brutal murder of those twenty 6 and 7 year old beautiful children?

Yet you don't seem to give a flying fuck about the same number of beautiful children being killed in places like DC, Chicago and LA every month.

Nope...Opportunist dickweeds like you are all about the big easily exploitable massacres, rather than the places where your fascistic gun control laws are towering failures.

This isn't just about massacres. America has a gun violence epidemic. Turd brains like you must believe we still live in the wagon train days. How hard is it to leave a municipality or state with strict gun laws to buy a gun in a state with lax ones? THAT is why we need federal legislation pea brain.

You have never uttered one word that would give anyone even the the impression that you care about anyone but yourself.

 

[Dubya]

Jefferson tree of liberty is my favorite of Jefferson's quote, why don't you use it

Is that what you right wing scum thought of when you heard about the brutal murder of those twenty 6 and 7 year old beautiful children?

Yet you don't seem to give a flying fuck about the same number of beautiful children being killed in places like DC, Chicago and LA every month.

Nope...Opportunist dickweeds like you are all about the big easily exploitable massacres, rather than the places where your fascistic gun control laws are towering failures.

That's bullshit because the evidence points to Sandy Hook being connected to a gun nut mother who home schooled her son who already had problems socializing. We don't have a lot of evidence, but why did the mother have those guns around a son with a history of mental problems? It's reported she had around 12 guns. Lanza is reported to have had a Bushmaster XM15-E2S rifle, a 10mm Glock handgun and a 9mm SIG Sauer P226 handgun in the school. The victims are all reported to have been shot by the Bushmaster XM15-E2S rifle, a variant of an AR-15.

So let's look back at some of the history of our wingnut gun nuts on this site talking bullshit! I remember gun nuts arguing that Lanza killed his mother and took her weapons and specifically they claimed he didn't shoot her, but the mother was shot 4 times in her pajamas and was found in her bed. The mother is reported to have been living off of alimony from a divorce from a corporate executive and well off. She took her children to the firing range. Contrary to what our gun nuts have said, Lanza did kill the children and adults with an assault rifle, an AR-15 variant and killed himself with a pistol. There were many tales about no assault weapon was involved and the AR-15 was in the car. Lanza also had many oversized magazines in an olive green utility vest and in some cases he left up to 15 rounds in a 30 round magazine. Outside in his car, Lanza had a Izhmash Saiga-12 combat shotgun and a large quantity of unused ammunition was recovered inside the school. All the victims were shoot multiple times up to 11 times on one case that was reported.

Sandy Hook Elementary School shooting - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Lanza also destroyed the harddrive on his computer, but it's possible data could still be recovered.

Lanza shot his mother and rushed to the school being there in 5 minutes or such with the school being 5 miles away. He would have had to plan on going to the school and prepare himself ahead of shooting his mother. There is speculation about an altercation between Lanza and school officials just prior to the incident.

Now, what were you gun nuts saying?

 

[Dubya]

Laws accomplish magic now? How the fuck do you expect any law to trace a gun back to the person who used it? Even if we ignore the fact that ballistics only works in the movies, the best if can do is trace a bullet back to the gun that fired it. There is no way it will tell you who was holding the gun.

Before you start sputtering about fingerprints, it is actually pretty hard to pull prints off of gun that is properly cared for because fingerprints depend on leaving iol depositis on a clean surface, and guns, if they are properly cared for, are pretty oily.

Eventually all there will be is registered firearms. All of this has been explained, but you are one of those people who tries to take each sentence and windbag it. I've even explained details of how to change laws that discourage someone stealing a gun. I've explained that murders are seldom planned assassinations. Mayor Bloomberg tasked the cops of New York City to get the guns off the streets and they would approach a suspect in safe numbers and search them if they suspected them of having a gun. When people are caught with guns on the streets and thrown in jail, it sends a message to not have guns on the street. As the homicide rate declines, more police resources can be allocated to a homicide and that increases the chances of catching the criminal. The areas with more homicides can be focused on to remove the guns from those streets. When a bunch of street gangs are packing guns, there are a lot of killings and when they aren't the killings drop. The gangs may still fight in less lethal ways, but fewer people are killed. When people are shooting it up in the streets there are a lot of accidental shootings.

I think you could lift a fingerprint off the average gun of a criminal. Gun that are properly cared for are oiled and put up. Guns that are carried around tend to lose their oil.

You really think that criminals give a shit about using their weapons for more than a few (if that many) criminal acts?

Dude, button it...It has become completely obvious that you are completely over your head and have NFI what you're yammering about.

You don't know how much damage you have done and will continue to do for people who own guns, because you NRA gun nuts are totally unreasonable. I hope shut your ass down, big time.

 

[OKTexas]

Misusing? Thomas Jefferson couldn't be any more clear. He made similar statements.

"The equal rights of man, and the happiness of every individual, are now acknowledged to be the only legitimate objects of government. Modern times have the signal advantage, too, of having discovered the only device by which these rights can be secured, to wit: government by the people, acting not in person, but by representatives chosen by themselves, that is to say, by every man of ripe years and sane mind, who contributes either by his purse or person to the support of his country." --Thomas Jefferson to A. Coray, 1823. ME 15:482

"I willingly acquiesce in the institutions of my country, perfect or imperfect, and think it a duty to leave their modifications to those who are to live under them and are to participate of the good or evil they may produce. The present generation has the same right of self-government which the past one has exercised for itself." --Thomas Jefferson to John Hampden Pleasants, 1824. ME 16:29

"What is true of every member of the society, individually, is true of them all collectively; since the rights of the whole can be no more than the sum of the rights of the individuals." --Thomas Jefferson to James Madison, 1789. ME 7:455, Papers 15:393

"To unequal privileges among members of the same society the spirit of our nation is, with one accord, adverse." --Thomas Jefferson to Hugh White, 1801. ME 10:258

"The most sacred of the duties of a government [is] to do equal and impartial justice to all its citizens." --Thomas Jefferson: Note in Destutt de Tracy, "Political Economy," 1816. ME 14:465

Jefferson tree of liberty is my favorite of Jefferson's quote, why don't you use it

Is that what you right wing scum thought of when you heard about the brutal murder of those twenty 6 and 7 year old beautiful children?

It was horrible, but before those babies were even taken out of that school you left wing bastards were circling like buzzards to try to advance your gun grabbing agenda. Your pathetic human excrement of the worse order with absolutely no fucking shame. I sincerely hope that answers your question.

 

[Dubya]

Jefferson tree of liberty is my favorite of Jefferson's quote, why don't you use it

Is that what you right wing scum thought of when you heard about the brutal murder of those twenty 6 and 7 year old beautiful children?

It was horrible, but before those babies were even taken out of that school you left wing bastards were circling like buzzards to try to advance your gun grabbing agenda. Your pathetic human excrement of the worse order with absolutely no fucking shame. I sincerely hope that answers your question.

Weren't you one of those idiots making all those bogus claims about what happened?