Do You Think The Fast & Furious Scandal Is Worse Than Watergate Scandal?

[Charles_Main]

I think it's a very interesting question. Most were very willing to crucify the President over Watergate. So what about 'Fast & Furious?' What do you think?

I think you are praying it is.....

Someone how I think it's the Libs Praying it's not.

 

[Dr Grump]

hey wait a minute, I thought we had to wait until the investigation was over?

The most sense you've made all thread....

that won't get you anywhere.

so, the links on the Terry shooting, they make sense?

Oh, no. You get me wrong. I think once the investigation is complete, then the axe should swing.

What I find amusing is:
Bush: "the intel was wrong on WMDs, I'm sorry"
Neocon Whackjobs: "Ok Georgie Boy. We don't mind our sons and daughters being sent to war over something that didn't exist".

Holder: "I had no idea how far or deep this went and I'll find out what happened, bear me out"
Neocon Whackjobs: "We don't fucken care you useless motherfucker. The buck stops with you!! We want to know now! An election is coming up and we this timing is perfect to smear Obama and throw ammo his way!! We want to know now!!! (stamps feet)"

Only in America...pathetic all round really...

 

[Trajan]

how do you know holder didn't start it, or know about it?

Oh and who did start it?


hey wait a minute, I thought we had to wait until the investigation was over?

All the evidence leads to the ATF and DOJ...the subpena was only to find out who signed off on it.

Amazing how they seem to want to keep that part secret.

I don't think they do....They are just awaiting for their investigation to be complete. Just because partisan hacks want to make a political point out of an agent's death doesn't mean Holder wants to...

I am sorry but for someone who claimed to be up on the political events in the USA to a high degree, considering all of the hoopla in the Bush term I find that statement incredibly naive, or disingenuous.

 

[bripat9643]

Because the laws prohibit gun dealers from selling firearms to those persons. The government a) didn't sell the guns, b) isn't a gun dealer.

They directed others to. That makes them complicit.

Except that what you're accusing them of is not a crime.

Yes it is, dipstick. Selling guns to felons or illegal aliens is against the law.

 

[Dr Grump]

All the evidence leads to the ATF and DOJ...the subpena was only to find out who signed off on it.

Amazing how they seem to want to keep that part secret.

I don't think they do....They are just awaiting for their investigation to be complete. Just because partisan hacks want to make a political point out of an agent's death doesn't mean Holder wants to...

I am sorry but for someone who claimed to be up on the political events in the USA to a high degree, considering all of the hoopla in the Bush term I find that statement incredibly naive, or disingenuous.

You do realise it is the likes of you - and your political equivalents in Washington - who make your system such a mess. You guys (and I mean both extremes) are so lost in trying to win the point, you sometimes forget what the point is....

 

[Ernie S.]

I am sorry, have you seen the Holder evidence?

You are guessing at this point.

Franco, do you REALLY think that eaves dropping on a political opponent is worse than supplying weapons to the Mexican drug cartel in hopes of subverting the constitution, resulting in the murder of a Federal Agent?

Are you really this much of a mindless, fucking hack?

Yes he is.

 

[Vast LWC]

I think it's a very interesting question. Most were very willing to crucify the President over Watergate. So what about 'Fast & Furious?' What do you think?

I don't know...

Is it worse than the "Iran Contra" scandal?

At least in this case it would seem that they didn't intend to give weapons to enemies of America...

They seem to have had good intentions, and just fucked up royally in the implementation of their plan.

Of course, we all know what the road to hell is paved with.

In the Iran Contra case, they intended to supply Iran with weapons.

And Israel acted as a go-between. Go figure.

 

[bripat9643]

They didn't stop because their precautions were inadequate. They stopped because they didn't gather enough info to press charges against anyone.

They stopped when they learned they weren't able to track the guns.

 

[Trajan]

The most sense you've made all thread....

that won't get you anywhere.

so, the links on the Terry shooting, they make sense?

Oh, no. You get me wrong. I think once the investigation is complete, then the axe should swing.

What I find amusing is:
Bush: "the intel was wrong on WMDs, I'm sorry"
Neocon Whackjobs: "Ok Georgie Boy. We don't mind our sons and daughters being sent to war over something that didn't exist".

Holder: "I had no idea how far or deep this went and I'll find out what happened, bear me out"
Neocon Whackjobs: "We don't fucken care you useless motherfucker. The buck stops with you!! We want to know now! An election is coming up and we this timing is perfect to smear Obama and throw ammo his way!! We want to know now!!! (stamps feet)"

Only in America...pathetic all round really...

that post has zero to do with the fact that has been established in that terry was killed by a F&F weapon which, you did not know.


its going to be difficult to advance the investigation if there is no investigation because documents have been put under wraps, so how can the axe swing minus the investigation?


either you want to see this concluded or not, unless there is an ulterior motive...do you have an ulterior motive? Does obama have one?

 

[Charles_Main]

The most sense you've made all thread....

that won't get you anywhere.

so, the links on the Terry shooting, they make sense?

Oh, no. You get me wrong. I think once the investigation is complete, then the axe should swing.

What I find amusing is:
Bush: "the intel was wrong on WMDs, I'm sorry"
Neocon Whackjobs: "Ok Georgie Boy. We don't mind our sons and daughters being sent to war over something that didn't exist".

Actually for me, it was more like. Ok George I never thought we needed WMD for Justification. I always thought the Repeated Violations of 19 UN resolutions, and the Repeatedly Shooting at our Planes enforcing a UN mandated No Fly Zone were Plenty good enough reason.

 

[bripat9643]

Because the laws prohibit gun dealers from selling firearms to those persons. The government a) didn't sell the guns, b) isn't a gun dealer.

They forced the gun dealers to break the law, that is conspiracy and extortion.

The gun dealers weren't in violation of the law either.

Of course the were. They even called the BATF and questioned their instructions to sell guns to proven felons.

 

[logical4u]

Watergate was worse, though not as bad as the Bush admin lying to the american people with the fabricated "they have WMD's and we know where they are" BS to go to war with Iraq.

Bullshit. NO ONE GOT KILLED in Watergate.

IDIOT.

That's why I said the Bush admin lying to go to war with Iraq was the worst. Over 4,000 US troops dead because of the scumbag Bush and the GOP shitheads.

How many were killed with Obama in charge? You don't hear the numbers, now. More people were killed in Chicago in the last year than Afganistan. Will you count those numbers against him? He is trying to turn the USA into Chicago, and his koolaid drinkin' followers are saying: its okay if he is totally corrupt, does not uphold his "oath of office", is not enforcing the laws, is a fraud, is a liar, cause I BELIEVE! Can I get an AMEN!?

Funny to watch the lynch mobs (for republicans) roll over with their bellies exposed when it is a liberal that is breaking the law.

He was voted President, not King.

 

[Charles_Main]

that won't get you anywhere.

so, the links on the Terry shooting, they make sense?

Oh, no. You get me wrong. I think once the investigation is complete, then the axe should swing.

What I find amusing is:
Bush: "the intel was wrong on WMDs, I'm sorry"
Neocon Whackjobs: "Ok Georgie Boy. We don't mind our sons and daughters being sent to war over something that didn't exist".

Holder: "I had no idea how far or deep this went and I'll find out what happened, bear me out"
Neocon Whackjobs: "We don't fucken care you useless motherfucker. The buck stops with you!! We want to know now! An election is coming up and we this timing is perfect to smear Obama and throw ammo his way!! We want to know now!!! (stamps feet)"

Only in America...pathetic all round really...

What Investigation? Obama refuses to appoint an Outside Council. He has tasked 2 of his own People from His own DOJ to "investigate" His own Administration.

Can you say Conflict of Interest?

You people are either the Most Dense, or the Most Hyper Partisan People I have ever met. No other explanation for how many excuses you will make for this Admin.

 

[Trajan]

I don't think they do....They are just awaiting for their investigation to be complete. Just because partisan hacks want to make a political point out of an agent's death doesn't mean Holder wants to...

I am sorry but for someone who claimed to be up on the political events in the USA to a high degree, considering all of the hoopla in the Bush term I find that statement incredibly naive, or disingenuous.

You do realise it is the likes of you - and your political equivalents in Washington - who make your system such a mess. You guys (and I mean both extremes) are so lost in trying to win the point, you sometimes forget what the point is....

the likes of me?.....

I asked you in the rachel corrie thread to answer me on your statement that pigeon holes me in the extreme, you can, go back and answer, that would be interesting.

 

[Intense]

Watergate started under Nixon and ended under Nixon.

Fast and Furious started under Bush in 2006 and lasted years under Bush until Obama was "stuck with another failed Bush Operation".

Watergate is babyshit compared to this. NO ONE was murdered in Watergate Assjockey.

What the FUCK is wrong with you leftists?

Fuck, RD can't even get his facts straight.

2006–2007: Operation Wide Receiver and other probes
The suspicious sale of AR-15s led to Operation Wide Receiver.[23]

The first known ATF "gunwalking" operation to Mexican drug cartels, named Operation Wide Receiver, began in early 2006 and ran into late 2007. Licensed dealer Mike Detty informed the ATF of a suspicious gun purchase that took place in February 2006 in Tucson, Arizona. In March he was hired as a confidential informant working with the ATF's Tucson office, part of their Phoenix, Arizona field division.[23] With the use of surveillance equipment, ATF agents monitored additional sales by Detty to straw purchasers. With assurance from ATF "that Mexican officials would be conducting surveillance or interdictions when guns got to the other side of the border",[24] Detty would sell a total of about 450 guns during the operation.[22] These included AR-15s, semi-automatic AK-pattern rifles, and Colt .38s. The vast majority of the guns were eventually lost as they moved into Mexico.[7][23][25]

At the time, under the Bush administration Department of Justice (DOJ), no arrests or indictments were made. After President Barack Obama took office in 2009, the DOJ reviewed Wide Receiver in September 2009[26] and found that guns had been allowed into the hands of suspected gun traffickers. Indictments began in 2010, over three years after Wide Receiver concluded. As of October 4, 2011, nine people had been charged with making false statements in acquisition of firearms and illicit transfer, shipment or delivery of firearms.[18] As of November, charges against one defendant had been dropped; five of them had pled guilty, and one had been sentenced to one year and one day in prison. Two of them remained fugitives.[23]

Another, smaller probe occurred in 2007 under the same ATF Phoenix field division. It began when the ATF identified Mexican suspects who bought weapons from a Phoenix gun shop over a span of several months. The probe ultimately involved over 200 guns, a dozen of which were lost in Mexico. On September 27, 2007, ATF agents saw the original suspects buying weapons at the same store and followed them toward the Mexican border. The ATF informed the Mexican government when the suspects successfully crossed the border, but Mexican law enforcement were unable to track them.[4][10]

Less than two weeks later, on October 6, William Newell, then ATF's special agent in charge of the Phoenix field division, shut down the operation at the behest of William Hoover, ATF's assistant director for the office of field operations.[27] No charges were filed. Newell, who was special agent in charge from June 2006 to May 2011, would later play a major role in Operation Fast and Furious.[4][24]
2009–2011: Operation Fast and Furious

On October 26, 2009, a teleconference was held at the Department of Justice in Washington, D.C. to discuss U.S. strategy for combating Mexican drug cartels. Participating in the meeting were Deputy Attorney General David W. Ogden, Assistant Attorney General Lanny A. Breuer, ATF Director Kenneth E. Melson, Drug Enforcement Administration (DEA) Administrator Michele Leonhart, Director of the Federal Bureau of Investigation Robert Mueller and the top federal prosecutors in the Southwestern border states. They decided on a strategy to identify and eliminate entire arms trafficking networks rather than low-level buyers.[3][28][29] Those at the meeting did not suggest using the "gunwalking" tactic, but ATF supervisors would soon use it in an attempt to achieve the desired goals.[30] The effort, beginning in November, would come to be called Operation Fast and Furious for the successful film franchise, because some of the suspects under investigation operated out of an auto repair store and street raced.[3]

The strategy of targeting high-level individuals, which was already ATF policy, would be implemented by Bill Newell, special agent in charge of ATF's Phoenix field division. In order to accomplish it, the office decided to use "gunwalking" as laid out in a January 2010 briefing paper. This was said to be allowed under ATF regulations and given legal backing by U.S. Attorney for the District of Arizona Dennis K. Burke. It was additionally approved and funded by a Justice Department task force.[3] However, long-standing DOJ and ATF policy has required arms shipments to be intercepted.[4][5]

In November 2009, the Phoenix office's Group VII, which would be the lead investigative group in Fast and Furious, began to follow a prolific gun trafficker. He had bought 34 firearms in 24 days, and he and his associates bought 212 more in the next month. The case soon grew to over two dozen straw purchasers, the most prolific of which would ultimately buy more than 600 weapons.[3][5][31]

The tactic of letting guns walk, rather than interdicting them and arresting the buyers, led to controversy within the ATF.[5][32] As the case continued, several members of Group VII, including John Dodson and Olindo Casa, became increasingly upset at the tactic of allowing guns to walk. Their standard Project Gunrunner training was to follow the straw purchasers to the hand-off to the cartel buyers, then arrest both parties and seize the guns. They watched guns being bought illegally and stashed on a daily basis, while their supervisors, including David Voth and Hope MacAllister, prevented the agents from intervening.[3]

Responding to the disagreements, Voth wrote an email in March 2010: "I will be damned if this case is going to suffer due to petty arguing, rumors, or other adolescent behavior. I don’t know what all the issues are but we are all adults, we are all professionals, and we have an exciting opportunity to use the biggest tool in our law enforcement tool box. If you don’t think this is fun you are in the wrong line of work – period!”[3][33]

By June 2010, suspects had purchased 1,608 firearms at a cost of over US$1 million at Phoenix-area gun shops. At that time, the ATF was also aware of 179 of those weapons being found at crime scenes in Mexico, and 130 in the United States.[8] As guns traced to Fast and Furious began turning up at violent crime scenes in Mexico, ATF agents stationed there also voiced opposition.[3]

On the evening of December 14, 2010, U.S. Border Patrol agent Brian Terry and others were patrolling Peck Canyon, Santa Cruz County, Arizona, 11 miles from the Mexican border. The group came across five suspected illegal immigrants. When they fired non-lethal beanbag guns, the suspects responded with their own weapons, leading to a firefight. Agent Terry was shot and killed; four of the suspects were arrested and two AK-pattern rifles were found nearby. The rifles were traced to Fast and Furious within hours of the shooting, but the bullet that killed Terry was too badly damaged to be linked to either gun.[3]

After hearing of the incident, Agent Dodson reached out to ATF headquarters, ATF's chief counsel, the ATF ethics section and the Justice Department's Office of the Inspector General, none of whom immediately responded. He and other agents then contacted Senator Chuck Grassley of Iowa (R–IA), ranking member of the Senate Judiciary Committee, who would become a major figure in the investigation of "gunwalking." At the same time, information began leaking to various bloggers and Web sites.[3]
FN Five-sevens were among the weapons allowed to walk.[34]

On January 25, 2011, U.S. Attorney Burke announced the first details of the case to become officially public, marking the end of Operation Fast and Furious. At a news conference in Phoenix, he reported a 53-count indictment of 20 suspects for buying hundreds of guns intended for illegal export between September 2009 and December 2010. Newell, who was at the conference, called Fast and Furious a "phenomenal case," while denying that guns had been deliberately allowed to walk into Mexico.[3][24]

Altogether, 2,020 firearms were bought by straw purchasers during Fast and Furious.[3] These included AK-47 variants, Barrett .50 caliber sniper rifles, .38 caliber revolvers, and FN Five-sevens.[34] As of October 20, 2011, 389 had been recovered in the US and 276 had been recovered in Mexico. The rest remained on the streets, unaccounted for.[15] Most of the guns went to the Sinaloa Cartel, while others made their way to El Teo and La Familia.[2][25]

ATF gunwalking scandal - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Dr Grump]

that won't get you anywhere.

so, the links on the Terry shooting, they make sense?

Oh, no. You get me wrong. I think once the investigation is complete, then the axe should swing.

What I find amusing is:
Bush: "the intel was wrong on WMDs, I'm sorry"
Neocon Whackjobs: "Ok Georgie Boy. We don't mind our sons and daughters being sent to war over something that didn't exist".

Holder: "I had no idea how far or deep this went and I'll find out what happened, bear me out"
Neocon Whackjobs: "We don't fucken care you useless motherfucker. The buck stops with you!! We want to know now! An election is coming up and we this timing is perfect to smear Obama and throw ammo his way!! We want to know now!!! (stamps feet)"

Only in America...pathetic all round really...

that post has zero to do with the fact that has been established in that terry was killed by a F&F weapon which, you did not know.


its going to be difficult to advance the investigation if there is no investigation because documents have been put under wraps, so how can the axe swing minus the investigation?


either you want to see this concluded or not, unless there is an ulterior motive...do you have an ulterior motive? Does obama have one?

1) Er, yes I did. There has been thread after thread about him being killed by a weapon from F&F. It has also been established that Iraq had no WMD's
2) There is an investigation going on. What you mean to say is "there is no investigation going on that meets OUR criteria"...
3) I think everybody wants to see a conclusion. What the righties on Capital Hill really want is heads to roll. From what I've seen of Holder being interrogated by Republicans in Washington, they are not even interested in an investigation. They are interested in getting rid of Holder.

 

[Dr Grump]

that won't get you anywhere.

so, the links on the Terry shooting, they make sense?

Oh, no. You get me wrong. I think once the investigation is complete, then the axe should swing.

What I find amusing is:
Bush: "the intel was wrong on WMDs, I'm sorry"
Neocon Whackjobs: "Ok Georgie Boy. We don't mind our sons and daughters being sent to war over something that didn't exist".

Holder: "I had no idea how far or deep this went and I'll find out what happened, bear me out"
Neocon Whackjobs: "We don't fucken care you useless motherfucker. The buck stops with you!! We want to know now! An election is coming up and we this timing is perfect to smear Obama and throw ammo his way!! We want to know now!!! (stamps feet)"

Only in America...pathetic all round really...

What Investigation? Obama refuses to appoint an Outside Council. He has tasked 2 of his own People from His own DOJ to "investigate" His own Administration.

Can you say Conflict of Interest?

You people are either the Most Dense, or the Most Hyper Partisan People I have ever met. No other explanation for how many excuses you will make for this Admin.

1) Look what happened when CLinton did that.
2) Bush refused to do the same with WMDs..

Shrug...

 

[logical4u]

Watergate was the worst, just one of many ways Nixon's gang was subverting the constitution and going after "enemies"....

Nobody was killed because of F+F- the Mexican gangs have millions of guns to choose from, thanks to Pubpolicies in border states, etc.

This is a huge overreach by Issa and the Pubs (and the PPmachine). According to them, Obama has no rights!

This man is trashing the Constitution. His whole purpose for this "F&F" was to have an excuse to clamp down on the 2nd ammendment. His healthcare bill is in direct conflict with Federal rules in the Constitution. His "executive order" to selectively ignore illegal immigrants is unConstitutional. His "kill list" is unconstitutional. His wife's agenda of controlling diet and exercise in schools is unconstitutional. But hey, you guys want to embrace corruption, don't complain when all that is left is "waste".

 

[bodecea]

Bullshit. NO ONE GOT KILLED in Watergate.

IDIOT.

That's why I said the Bush admin lying to go to war with Iraq was the worst. Over 4,000 US troops dead because of the scumbag Bush and the GOP shitheads.

How many were killed with Obama in charge? You don't hear the numbers, now. More people were killed in Chicago in the last year than Afganistan. Will you count those numbers against him? He is trying to turn the USA into Chicago, and his koolaid drinkin' followers are saying: its okay if he is totally corrupt, does not uphold his "oath of office", is not enforcing the laws, is a fraud, is a liar, cause I BELIEVE! Can I get an AMEN!?

Funny to watch the lynch mobs (for republicans) roll over with their bellies exposed when it is a liberal that is breaking the law.

He was voted President, not King.

When you have to dig at crime statistics to get a death number higher than past Republican Presidents....it's quite the fail....

 

[Dr Grump]

I am sorry but for someone who claimed to be up on the political events in the USA to a high degree, considering all of the hoopla in the Bush term I find that statement incredibly naive, or disingenuous.

You do realise it is the likes of you - and your political equivalents in Washington - who make your system such a mess. You guys (and I mean both extremes) are so lost in trying to win the point, you sometimes forget what the point is....

the likes of me?.....

I asked you in the rachel corrie thread to answer me on your statement that pigeon holes me in the extreme, you can, go back and answer, that would be interesting.

I can only go on how you answer me...
You are of the right wing.
Who did you vote for in 2000? 2004? 2008?

If it was Bush, Bush, McCain, then I rest my case. If not...shrug...