Do You Think The Fast & Furious Scandal Is Worse Than Watergate Scandal?

[Ernie S.]

Watergate appears to have been far worse.

Time will tell about Holder, etc.

Appears? To you? In what way? Who died as a result of Watergate?
Are you always so obtuse? Do you even know what intellectual honesty is?

I'll answer that. No he does not. I've had enough convo's with him to tell you as much.

As I have. I know the answers to the questions I asked. I want to see if Jake has even a shred of honesty in there somewhere.

 

[The T]

Watergate was the worst, just one of many ways Nixon's gang was subverting the constitution and going after "enemies"....

Nobody was killed because of F+F- the Mexican gangs have millions of guns to choose from, thanks to Pubpolicies in border states, etc.

This is a huge overreach by Issa and the Pubs (and the PPmachine). According to them, Obama has no rights!

This man is trashing the Constitution. His whole purpose for this "F&F" was to have an excuse to clamp down on the 2nd ammendment. His healthcare bill is in direct conflict with Federal rules in the Constitution. His "executive order" to selectively ignore illegal immigrants is unConstitutional. His "kill list" is unconstitutional. His wife's agenda of controlling diet and exercise in schools is unconstitutional. But hey, you guys want to embrace corruption, don't complain when all that is left is "waste".

And I don't want to hear one PEEP from ANY leftist should Obama succeed because their choice is gone because it wasn't what they wanted.

 

[The T]

Appears? To you? In what way? Who died as a result of Watergate?
Are you always so obtuse? Do you even know what intellectual honesty is?

I'll answer that. No he does not. I've had enough convo's with him to tell you as much.

As I have. I know the answers to the questions I asked. I want to see if Jake has even a shred of honesty in there somewhere.

Don't hold your breath, 'Bro...

 

[Dr Grump]

Watergate was the worst, just one of many ways Nixon's gang was subverting the constitution and going after "enemies"....

Nobody was killed because of F+F- the Mexican gangs have millions of guns to choose from, thanks to Pubpolicies in border states, etc.

This is a huge overreach by Issa and the Pubs (and the PPmachine). According to them, Obama has no rights!

This man is trashing the Constitution. His whole purpose for this "F&F" was to have an excuse to clamp down on the 2nd ammendment. His healthcare bill is in direct conflict with Federal rules in the Constitution. His "executive order" to selectively ignore illegal immigrants is unConstitutional. His "kill list" is unconstitutional. His wife's agenda of controlling diet and exercise in schools is unconstitutional. But hey, you guys want to embrace corruption, don't complain when all that is left is "waste".

God, where do these people come from (puts head in hand)..

Are these trolls, or is there some sort of assembly line in Coeur D'Alene that pumps them out...

 

[Trajan]

Oh, no. You get me wrong. I think once the investigation is complete, then the axe should swing.

What I find amusing is:
Bush: "the intel was wrong on WMDs, I'm sorry"
Neocon Whackjobs: "Ok Georgie Boy. We don't mind our sons and daughters being sent to war over something that didn't exist".

Holder: "I had no idea how far or deep this went and I'll find out what happened, bear me out"
Neocon Whackjobs: "We don't fucken care you useless motherfucker. The buck stops with you!! We want to know now! An election is coming up and we this timing is perfect to smear Obama and throw ammo his way!! We want to know now!!! (stamps feet)"

Only in America...pathetic all round really...

that post has zero to do with the fact that has been established in that terry was killed by a F&F weapon which, you did not know.


its going to be difficult to advance the investigation if there is no investigation because documents have been put under wraps, so how can the axe swing minus the investigation?


either you want to see this concluded or not, unless there is an ulterior motive...do you have an ulterior motive? Does obama have one?

1) Er, yes I did. There has been thread after thread about him being killed by a weapon from F&F. It has also been established that Iraq had no WMD's

I provided links, CBS or the wash post are hardly "right wing extremist" talking point fronts or peddle lies/information for the GOP.

2) There is an investigation going on. What you mean to say is "there is no investigation going on that meets OUR criteria"...

punt noted.

3) I think everybody wants to see a conclusion. What the righties on Capital Hill really want is heads to roll. From what I've seen of Holder being interrogated by Republicans in Washington, they are not even interested in an investigation. They are interested in getting rid of Holder.

all they have to do is release the information, the documents that were asked for over 8 months ago. if hes clear, hes clear, but again, you are not informed.

there already is a record of holder saying one thing while proof shows another in that he said he only had knowledge a few weeks old in May, yet, e -mails showed indeed he was briefed in July 2010.

here again, a link -

ATF Fast and Furious: New documents show Attorney General Eric Holder was briefed in July 2010 - CBS News Investigates - CBS News

 

[The T]

Watergate was the worst, just one of many ways Nixon's gang was subverting the constitution and going after "enemies"....

Nobody was killed because of F+F- the Mexican gangs have millions of guns to choose from, thanks to Pubpolicies in border states, etc.

This is a huge overreach by Issa and the Pubs (and the PPmachine). According to them, Obama has no rights!

This man is trashing the Constitution. His whole purpose for this "F&F" was to have an excuse to clamp down on the 2nd ammendment. His healthcare bill is in direct conflict with Federal rules in the Constitution. His "executive order" to selectively ignore illegal immigrants is unConstitutional. His "kill list" is unconstitutional. His wife's agenda of controlling diet and exercise in schools is unconstitutional. But hey, you guys want to embrace corruption, don't complain when all that is left is "waste".

God, where do these people come from (puts head in hand)..

Are these trolls, or is there some sort of assembly line in Coeur D'Alene that pumps them out...

Stick to NZ and tending your sheep.

 

[logical4u]

I dunno if worse than Watergate. Depends I guess on what comes to light in terms of coverup details, which is why the administration is fighting to keep things under wraps. That won't last but they're too stupid to know that.

Stay tuned!

No, the administration is well aware this will come out, eventually. They are counting on their "zombie followers" to stay ignorant of this until after the election, so the wanna be king can continue to raise unemployment and food stamp recipiants, while traveling in style and partying on our dime.

 

[Too Tall]

Latest Friday night document dump shows Holder was informed of Brian Terry

“The guns found in the desert near the murder BP officer connect back to the investigation we were going to talk about – they were AK-47s purchased at a Phoenix gun store,” Burke wrote to Wilkinson.

“I’ll call tomorrow,” Wilkinson responded.

Nothing in that article points out they did forensics on bullets retrieved from the body that are linked to any guns that they can connect to the operation.

Bullets have unique markings that can be traced back to the gun it was fired from.

That sort of evidence hasn't been produced.

Could it be because investigators were directed to not test the bullets?
I want to see ballistic test results.

A death in the desert

Late on the evening of Dec. 14, 2010, U.S. Border Patrol agent Brian Terry and other officers were patrolling Peck Canyon, in the Arizona desert about 11 miles inside the Mexican border. The region was a hotbed for bandits who ambushed illegal immigrants.
Nicknamed “Superman” for his good looks and strength, the 40-year-old Terry was planning to fly to Michigan for Christmas with his family after his shift ended.

Suddenly, the group got into a firefight with five suspected illegal immigrants. At first, Terry and the officers fired “less than lethal’’ beanbag guns, an FBI report said. But the suspects fired assault weapons. Then the agents resorted to live ammunition.
Terry was fatally shot in the melee. Investigators made four arrests and found two AK-47 semiautomatic rifles nearby.

Within hours, the news spread inside ATF: The serial numbers on the two rifles matched guns bought by one of the Fast and Furious suspects a year before outside Phoenix. The bullet that killed Terry was so damaged that neither of the firearms could be definitively linked to his killing, according to a law enforcement official in the case

Operation Fast and Furious: A gunrunning sting gone wrong - The Washington Post

I guess you won't be getting your ballistic test results.

 

[Vast LWC]

Neither of these hold a candle to Iran-Contra.

Reagan sold arms to Iran, who was under an embargo, and funded the Contras, a group of known terrorists, at the same time.

 

[logical4u]

Holder and Obama should be crucified for starting the gun-running operations that led to the death of that agent and all of those Mexicans. What a dumb idea!

I disagree. Crucifixion is a terrible, inhumane punishment.

I would like to see him impeached.

 

[Dr Grump]

that post has zero to do with the fact that has been established in that terry was killed by a F&F weapon which, you did not know.


its going to be difficult to advance the investigation if there is no investigation because documents have been put under wraps, so how can the axe swing minus the investigation?


either you want to see this concluded or not, unless there is an ulterior motive...do you have an ulterior motive? Does obama have one?

I provided links, CBS or the wash post are hardly "right wing extremist" talking point fronts or peddle lies/information for the GOP.





punt noted.

3) I think everybody wants to see a conclusion. What the righties on Capital Hill really want is heads to roll. From what I've seen of Holder being interrogated by Republicans in Washington, they are not even interested in an investigation. They are interested in getting rid of Holder.

all they have to do is release the information, the documents that were asked for over 8 months ago. if hes clear, hes clear, but again, you are not informed.

there already is a record of holder saying one thing while proof shows another in that he said he only had knowledge a few weeks old in May, yet, e -mails showed indeed he was briefed in July 2010.

here again, a link -

ATF Fast and Furious: New documents show Attorney General Eric Holder was briefed in July 2010 - CBS News Investigates - CBS News

Seen the email. And? Of course there is political fall out to consider. Heads will roll over this, and I'm guessing at an ATF high level and/or DOJ mid level. I think Holder wants to cross his t's and dot his i's. The public will know in time...

 

[Dr Grump]

This man is trashing the Constitution. His whole purpose for this "F&F" was to have an excuse to clamp down on the 2nd ammendment. His healthcare bill is in direct conflict with Federal rules in the Constitution. His "executive order" to selectively ignore illegal immigrants is unConstitutional. His "kill list" is unconstitutional. His wife's agenda of controlling diet and exercise in schools is unconstitutional. But hey, you guys want to embrace corruption, don't complain when all that is left is "waste".

God, where do these people come from (puts head in hand)..

Are these trolls, or is there some sort of assembly line in Coeur D'Alene that pumps them out...

Stick to NZ and tending your sheep.

Stick to the playground. adults are talking...

 

[Trajan]

You do realise it is the likes of you - and your political equivalents in Washington - who make your system such a mess. You guys (and I mean both extremes) are so lost in trying to win the point, you sometimes forget what the point is....

the likes of me?.....

I asked you in the rachel corrie thread to answer me on your statement that pigeon holes me in the extreme, you can, go back and answer, that would be interesting.

I can only go on how you answer me...
You are of the right wing.
Who did you vote for in 2000? 2004? 2008?

If it was Bush, Bush, McCain, then I rest my case. If not...shrug...

lets go back all the way-


first vote Carter over ford, then, reagan reagan, bush 1, perot, clinton, bush bush , write in Ron Paul......this btw proves squat even if its advantageous to me, to put put it on display..it proves little imho. kerry was a horrible candidate and so was mccain.

wanna talk issues now?

yea, shrug.

 

[Dr Grump]

Neither of these hold a candle to Iran-Contra.

Reagan sold arms to Iran, who was under an embargo, and funded the Contras, a group of known terrorists, at the same time.

B-b-b-but a border agent was killed. With Iran Contra, there was no collateral damage. Sand ******* and wetbacks are barely human dontcha know...

 

[percysunshine]

Is this a trick question?

How many people were killed in Watergate?

 

[Dr Grump]

the likes of me?.....

I asked you in the rachel corrie thread to answer me on your statement that pigeon holes me in the extreme, you can, go back and answer, that would be interesting.

I can only go on how you answer me...
You are of the right wing.
Who did you vote for in 2000? 2004? 2008?

If it was Bush, Bush, McCain, then I rest my case. If not...shrug...

lets go back all the way-


first vote Carter over ford, then, reagan reagan, bush 1, perot, clinton, bush bush , write in Ron Paul......this btw proves squat even if its advantageous to me, to put put it on display..it proves little imho. kerry was a horrible candidate and so was mccain.

wanna talk issues now?

yea, shrug.

I thought we were talking issues. You're the one getting side tracked about your personal beliefs...

Fair enough re Kerry. I thought anybody was better than Bush, including Kerry....just....

 

[Desperado]

With what is known yes. Watergate was simply about gathering information on the Democrats.
Fast and Furious is about Americans guns ending up in the hands of Mexican gangs. With a border patrol agents loosing their life by those same guns. This is bad enough, however the bigger question is what was the reasoning that those guns were allowed to cross the border. As in Watergate, it now becomes a matter of who knew what and when did they know. With Obama claiming Executive Privilege, he now has implicated himself or at the least some of the White House Staff/Advisors.

 

[Trajan]

I provided links, CBS or the wash post are hardly "right wing extremist" talking point fronts or peddle lies/information for the GOP.





punt noted.




all they have to do is release the information, the documents that were asked for over 8 months ago. if hes clear, hes clear, but again, you are not informed.

there already is a record of holder saying one thing while proof shows another in that he said he only had knowledge a few weeks old in May, yet, e -mails showed indeed he was briefed in July 2010.

here again, a link -

ATF Fast and Furious: New documents show Attorney General Eric Holder was briefed in July 2010 - CBS News Investigates - CBS News

Seen the email. And? Of course there is political fall out to consider. Heads will roll over this, and I'm guessing at an ATF high level and/or DOJ mid level. I think Holder wants to cross his t's and dot his i's. The public will know in time...

Seen the email? so perjury is what? a ho hum move on moment?

And I see, political fall out. hes had 8 months.....

so this is or isn't a witch-hunt, ran by extremist gopers? ...... your argument is melting under your feet, now we are down to evoking exec. privilege to consider political fallout.....all the while excoriating 'extremist right wingers' for demanding answers.....I see.

 

[Trajan]

I can only go on how you answer me...
You are of the right wing.
Who did you vote for in 2000? 2004? 2008?

If it was Bush, Bush, McCain, then I rest my case. If not...shrug...

lets go back all the way-


first vote Carter over ford, then, reagan reagan, bush 1, perot, clinton, bush bush , write in Ron Paul......this btw proves squat even if its advantageous to me, to put put it on display..it proves little imho. kerry was a horrible candidate and so was mccain.

wanna talk issues now?

yea, shrug.

I thought we were talking issues. You're the one getting side tracked about your personal beliefs...

Fair enough re Kerry. I thought anybody was better than Bush, including Kerry....just....

Beliefs? were so?

you asked me to supply my votes for several presidential elections, I gave you them all, thats not a values or issues debate or reveal.

 

[Too Tall]

Watergate was worse, though not as bad as the Bush admin lying to the american people with the fabricated "they have WMD's and we know where they are" BS to go to war with Iraq.

So all the DEMOCRATS that said there were WMDs in Iraq and or were making them were LYING too? Note they said such BEFORE Bush was ever elected, in fact in some cases YEARS before.

"One way or the other, we are determined to deny Iraq the capacity to develop weapons of mass destruction and the missiles to deliver them. That is our bottom line."
--President Bill Clinton, Feb. 4, 1998

"If Saddam rejects peace and we have to use force, our purpose is clear. We want to seriously diminish the threat posed by Iraq's weapons of mass destruction program."
--President Bill Clinton, Feb. 17, 1998

"Iraq is a long way from [here], but what happens there matters a great deal here. For the risks that the leaders of a rogue state will use nuclear, chemical or biological weapons against us or our allies is the greatest security threat we face."
--Madeline Albright, Feb 18, 1998

"He will use those weapons of mass destruction again, as he has ten times since 1983."
--Sandy Berger, Clinton National Security Adviser, Feb, 18, 1998"[W]e urge you, after consulting with Congress, and consistent with the U.S. Constitution and laws, to take necessary actions (including, if appropriate, air and missile strikes on suspect Iraqi sites) to respond effectively to the threat posed by Iraq's refusal to end its weapons of mass destruction programs."

Letter to President Clinton, signed by:
-- Democratic Senators Carl Levin, Tom Daschle, John Kerry, and others, Oct. 9, 1998

"Saddam Hussein has been engaged in the development of weapons of mass destruction technology which is a threat to countries in the region and he has made a mockery of the weapons inspection process."
-Rep. Nancy Pelosi (D, CA), Dec. 16, 1998

"Hussein has ... chosen to spend his money on building weapons of mass destruction and palaces for his cronies."
-- Madeline Albright, Clinton Secretary of State, Nov. 10, 1999

"There is no doubt that ... Saddam Hussein has reinvigorated his weapons programs. Reports indicate that biological, chemical and nuclear programs continue apace and may be back to pre-Gulf War status. In addition, Saddam continues to redefine delivery systems and is doubtless using the cover of a licit missile program to develop longer-range missiles that will threaten the United States and our allies."
Letter to President Bush, Signed by:
-- Sen. Bob Graham (D, FL), and others, Dec 5, 2001

"We begin with the common belief that Saddam Hussein is a tyrant and a threat to the peace and stability of the region. He has ignored the mandate of the United Nations and is building weapons of mass destruction and th! e means of delivering them."
-- Sen. Carl Levin (D, MI), Sept. 19, 2002

"We know that he has stored secret supplies of biological and chemical weapons throughout his country."
-- Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002

"Iraq's search for weapons of mass destruction has proven impossible to deter and we should assume that it will continue for as long as Saddam is in power."
-- Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002

"We have known for many years that Saddam Hussein is seeking and developing weapons of mass destruction."
-- Sen. Ted Kennedy (D, MA), Sept. 27, 2002

"The last UN weapons inspectors left Iraq in October of 1998. We are confident that Saddam Hussein retains some stockpiles of chemical and biological weapons, and that he has since embarked on a crash course to build up his chemical and biological warfare capabilities. Intelligence reports indicate that he is seeking nuclear weapons..."
-- Sen. Robert Byrd (D, WV), Oct. 3, 2002

"I will be voting to give the President of the United States the authority to use force -- if necessary -- to disarm Saddam Hussein because I believe that a deadly arsenal of weapons of mass destruction in his hands is a real and grave threat to our security."
-- Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Oct. 9, 2002

"There is unmistakable evidence that Saddam Hussein is working aggressively to develop nuclear weapons and will likely have nuclear weapons within the next five years ... We also should remember we have always underestimated the progress Saddam has made in development of weapons of mass destruction."
-- Sen. Jay Rockefeller (D, WV), Oct 10, 2002

"He has systematically violated, over the course of the past 11 years, every significant UN resolution that has demanded that he disarm and destroy his chemical and biological weapons, and any nuclear capacity. This he has refused to do"
-- Rep. Henry Waxman (D, CA), Oct. 10, 2002

"In the four years since the inspectors left, intelligence reports show that Saddam Hussein has worked to rebuild his chemical and biological weapons stock, his missile delivery capability, and his nuclear program. He has also given aid, comfort, and sanctuary to terrorists, including al Qaeda members ... It is clear, however, that if left unchecked, Saddam Hussein will continue to increase his capacity to wage biological and chemical warfare, and will keep trying to develop nuclear weapons."
-- Sen. Hillary Clinton (D, NY), Oct 10, 2002

"We are in possession of what I think to be compelling evidence that Saddam Hussein has, and has had for a number of years, a developing capacity for the production and storage of weapons of mass destruction."
-- Sen. Bob Graham (D, FL), Dec. 8, 2002

"Without question, we need to disarm Saddam Hussein. He is a brutal, murderous dictator, leading an oppressive regime ... He presents a particularly grievous threat because he is so consistently prone to miscalculation ... And now he is miscalculating America's response to his continued deceit and his consistent grasp for weapons of mass destruction ... So the threat of Saddam Hussein with weapons of mass destruction is real..."
-- Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Jan. 23. 2003

I saved all of those and a few more as well.

Do you suppose all of those with a (D) after their name were lying? I suggest that they were getting the same information from our and our allies intelligence agencies and that they and Bush were telling the truth as they knew it.