Do You Think The Fast & Furious Scandal Is Worse Than Watergate Scandal?

[Vidi]

Holder and obama allowed firearms into another country without that countries consent or knowledge.
And it is also a crime against the American people to misuse a program to push an anti gun agenda.

Youve got a good point on the first part but Im not buying the anti gun propaganda.

It's a combination of many thing that if you pay attention to it fast and the furious was all about gun control.,
Remember by in 2009 when holder and Clinton were talking about America was part of Mexico's problem. They would talk about guns going into mexico from America. That's one
Next we find out obama tell's Sarah Brady that he was working under the radar for gun control
Next we know all three obama clinton Holder are anti gun advocates.
And now we have this cover up.
A pig is still a pig doesn't matter if you move him into the white house. the pig will always be a pig you can't change that.

I dont see how you can say Obama is Anti Gun. The ONLY legislation that I can find that hes ever been a part of was back in Illinios when he co sponsered and voted to limit hand gun purchases to one a month, which failed and I oppose.

I would argue on the rest of your post that its more about enforcement of existing gun laws than looking to gun grab with more.

I fuly support law enforcment doing whatever is necessary to keep guns out of the hands of criminals. Ive often said that they dont do enough. I think we can all agree that guns sold in America ending up in the hands of Mexican Drug Lords is a bad thing.
So, I see this debacle as a stupid arrogant plan blowing up in the faces of people who were trying to do their jobs.

That however doesnt mean I dont think they should be held accountable for their failure. I absolutely do.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

Youve got a good point on the first part but Im not buying the anti gun propaganda.

It's a combination of many thing that if you pay attention to it fast and the furious was all about gun control.,
Remember by in 2009 when holder and Clinton were talking about America was part of Mexico's problem. They would talk about guns going into mexico from America. That's one
Next we find out obama tell's Sarah Brady that he was working under the radar for gun control
Next we know all three obama clinton Holder are anti gun advocates.
And now we have this cover up.
A pig is still a pig doesn't matter if you move him into the white house. the pig will always be a pig you can't change that.

I dont see how you can say Obama is Anti Gun. The ONLY legislation that I can find that hes ever been a part of was back in Illinios when he co sponsered and voted to limit hand gun purchases to one a month, which failed and I oppose.

I would argue on the rest of your post that its more about enforcement of existing gun laws than looking to gun grab with more.

I fuly support law enforcment doing whatever is necessary to keep guns out of the hands of criminals. Ive often said that they dont do enough. I think we can all agree that guns sold in America ending up in the hands of Mexican Drug Lords is a bad thing.
So, I see this debacle as a stupid arrogant plan blowing up in the faces of people who were trying to do their jobs.

That however doesnt mean I dont think they should be held accountable for their failure. I absolutely do.

Yes obama is anti gun
Gun Control: 2012 contenders' views
Midwestern "bitter clingers" frustrated over broken promises. (Aug 2009)
Opposed bill okaying illegal gun use in home invasions. (Aug 2008)
Ok for states & cities to determine local gun laws. (Apr 2008)
FactCheck: Yes, Obama endorsed Illinois handgun ban. (Apr 2008)
April 2008: "Bittergate" labeled Obama elitist. (Apr 2008)
Respect 2nd Amendment, but local gun bans ok. (Feb 2008)
Provide some common-sense enforcement on gun licensing. (Jan 2008)
2000: cosponsored bill to limit purchases to 1 gun per month. (Oct 2007)
Concealed carry OK for retired police officers. (Aug 2007)
Stop unscrupulous gun dealers dumping guns in cities. (Jul 2007)
Keep guns out of inner cities--but also problem of morality. (Oct 2006)
Bush erred in failing to renew assault weapons ban. (Oct 2004)
Ban semi-automatics, and more possession restrictions. (Jul 1998)
Voted NO on prohibiting lawsuits against gun manufacturers. (Jul 2005)

Lest we also forget his bitterness towards those who clinged to their bible and their guns.

 

[Vidi]

It's a combination of many thing that if you pay attention to it fast and the furious was all about gun control.,
Remember by in 2009 when holder and Clinton were talking about America was part of Mexico's problem. They would talk about guns going into mexico from America. That's one
Next we find out obama tell's Sarah Brady that he was working under the radar for gun control
Next we know all three obama clinton Holder are anti gun advocates.
And now we have this cover up.
A pig is still a pig doesn't matter if you move him into the white house. the pig will always be a pig you can't change that.

I dont see how you can say Obama is Anti Gun. The ONLY legislation that I can find that hes ever been a part of was back in Illinios when he co sponsered and voted to limit hand gun purchases to one a month, which failed and I oppose.

I would argue on the rest of your post that its more about enforcement of existing gun laws than looking to gun grab with more.

I fuly support law enforcment doing whatever is necessary to keep guns out of the hands of criminals. Ive often said that they dont do enough. I think we can all agree that guns sold in America ending up in the hands of Mexican Drug Lords is a bad thing.
So, I see this debacle as a stupid arrogant plan blowing up in the faces of people who were trying to do their jobs.

That however doesnt mean I dont think they should be held accountable for their failure. I absolutely do.

Yes obama is anti gun
Gun Control: 2012 contenders' views
Midwestern "bitter clingers" frustrated over broken promises. (Aug 2009)
Opposed bill okaying illegal gun use in home invasions. (Aug 2008)
Ok for states & cities to determine local gun laws. (Apr 2008)
FactCheck: Yes, Obama endorsed Illinois handgun ban. (Apr 2008)
April 2008: "Bittergate" labeled Obama elitist. (Apr 2008)
Respect 2nd Amendment, but local gun bans ok. (Feb 2008)
Provide some common-sense enforcement on gun licensing. (Jan 2008)
2000: cosponsored bill to limit purchases to 1 gun per month. (Oct 2007)
Concealed carry OK for retired police officers. (Aug 2007)
Stop unscrupulous gun dealers dumping guns in cities. (Jul 2007)
Keep guns out of inner cities--but also problem of morality. (Oct 2006)
Bush erred in failing to renew assault weapons ban. (Oct 2004)
Ban semi-automatics, and more possession restrictions. (Jul 1998)
Voted NO on prohibiting lawsuits against gun manufacturers. (Jul 2005)

Lest we also forget his bitterness towards those who clinged to their bible and their guns.

Sorry man I dont see it. When you read the various points one by one, it doesnt hold up. hes not saying BAN anything, hes saying ENFORCE existing laws or let states decide.

...from your link

Q: How would you address gun violence that continues to be the #1 cause of death among African-American men?
A: You know, when the massacre happened at Virginia Tech, I think all of us were grief stricken and shocked by the carnage. But in this year alone, in Chicago, we’ve had 34 Chicago public school students gunned down and killed. And for the most part, there has been silence. We know what to do. We’ve got to enforce the gun laws that are on the books. We’ve got to make sure that unscrupulous gun dealers aren’t loading up vans and dumping guns in our communities, because we know they’re not made in our communities. There aren’t any gun manufacturers here, right here in the middle of Detroit. But what we also have to do is to make sure that we change our politics so that we care just as much about those 30-some children in Chicago who’ve been shot as we do the children in Virginia Tech. That’s a mindset that we have to have in the White House and we don’t have it right now.

and the rest he respects the states right to choose for itself?...damn, hes almost...conservative on the issue.

ETA: Oh and on the Illegal guns in home invasions thing...I completely agree with him. If someone isnt legal to have a gun, then they damn well better learn to knife fight. Illegal is illegal. Period.

And yes, Illegal immigrants are criminals...though I do support the Dream Act. I dont hold children accountable for the actions of their parents.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

I dont see how you can say Obama is Anti Gun. The ONLY legislation that I can find that hes ever been a part of was back in Illinios when he co sponsered and voted to limit hand gun purchases to one a month, which failed and I oppose.

I would argue on the rest of your post that its more about enforcement of existing gun laws than looking to gun grab with more.

I fuly support law enforcment doing whatever is necessary to keep guns out of the hands of criminals. Ive often said that they dont do enough. I think we can all agree that guns sold in America ending up in the hands of Mexican Drug Lords is a bad thing.
So, I see this debacle as a stupid arrogant plan blowing up in the faces of people who were trying to do their jobs.

That however doesnt mean I dont think they should be held accountable for their failure. I absolutely do.

Yes obama is anti gun
Gun Control: 2012 contenders' views
Midwestern "bitter clingers" frustrated over broken promises. (Aug 2009)
Opposed bill okaying illegal gun use in home invasions. (Aug 2008)
Ok for states & cities to determine local gun laws. (Apr 2008)
FactCheck: Yes, Obama endorsed Illinois handgun ban. (Apr 2008)
April 2008: "Bittergate" labeled Obama elitist. (Apr 2008)
Respect 2nd Amendment, but local gun bans ok. (Feb 2008)
Provide some common-sense enforcement on gun licensing. (Jan 2008)
2000: cosponsored bill to limit purchases to 1 gun per month. (Oct 2007)
Concealed carry OK for retired police officers. (Aug 2007)
Stop unscrupulous gun dealers dumping guns in cities. (Jul 2007)
Keep guns out of inner cities--but also problem of morality. (Oct 2006)
Bush erred in failing to renew assault weapons ban. (Oct 2004)
Ban semi-automatics, and more possession restrictions. (Jul 1998)
Voted NO on prohibiting lawsuits against gun manufacturers. (Jul 2005)

Lest we also forget his bitterness towards those who clinged to their bible and their guns.

Sorry man I dont see it. When you read the various points one by one, it doesnt hold up. hes not saying BAN anything, hes saying ENFORCE existing laws or let states decide.

...from your link

Q: How would you address gun violence that continues to be the #1 cause of death among African-American men?
A: You know, when the massacre happened at Virginia Tech, I think all of us were grief stricken and shocked by the carnage. But in this year alone, in Chicago, we’ve had 34 Chicago public school students gunned down and killed. And for the most part, there has been silence. We know what to do. We’ve got to enforce the gun laws that are on the books. We’ve got to make sure that unscrupulous gun dealers aren’t loading up vans and dumping guns in our communities, because we know they’re not made in our communities. There aren’t any gun manufacturers here, right here in the middle of Detroit. But what we also have to do is to make sure that we change our politics so that we care just as much about those 30-some children in Chicago who’ve been shot as we do the children in Virginia Tech. That’s a mindset that we have to have in the White House and we don’t have it right now.

and the rest he respects the states right to choose for itself?...damn, hes almost...conservative on the issue.

There's your gun ban
Bush erred in failing to renew assault weapons ban.
Respect 2nd Amendment, but local gun bans ok
Keep guns out of inner cities--but also problem of morality.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Yep. So 'rarely', 'too', 'difficult' and 'follow' are now slang? You can make an excellent argument that she isn't using grammar in most of her posts. But not using English? Doesn't even pass the giggle test...

Improper English grammar ain't English.

But the words are....

give by sense words make themselves do not, english rules context

Those words are English, doesn't make the sentence English.

 

[Vidi]

Yes obama is anti gun
Gun Control: 2012 contenders' views
Midwestern "bitter clingers" frustrated over broken promises. (Aug 2009)
Opposed bill okaying illegal gun use in home invasions. (Aug 2008)
Ok for states & cities to determine local gun laws. (Apr 2008)
FactCheck: Yes, Obama endorsed Illinois handgun ban. (Apr 2008)
April 2008: "Bittergate" labeled Obama elitist. (Apr 2008)
Respect 2nd Amendment, but local gun bans ok. (Feb 2008)
Provide some common-sense enforcement on gun licensing. (Jan 2008)
2000: cosponsored bill to limit purchases to 1 gun per month. (Oct 2007)
Concealed carry OK for retired police officers. (Aug 2007)
Stop unscrupulous gun dealers dumping guns in cities. (Jul 2007)
Keep guns out of inner cities--but also problem of morality. (Oct 2006)
Bush erred in failing to renew assault weapons ban. (Oct 2004)
Ban semi-automatics, and more possession restrictions. (Jul 1998)
Voted NO on prohibiting lawsuits against gun manufacturers. (Jul 2005)

Lest we also forget his bitterness towards those who clinged to their bible and their guns.

Sorry man I dont see it. When you read the various points one by one, it doesnt hold up. hes not saying BAN anything, hes saying ENFORCE existing laws or let states decide.

...from your link

Q: How would you address gun violence that continues to be the #1 cause of death among African-American men?
A: You know, when the massacre happened at Virginia Tech, I think all of us were grief stricken and shocked by the carnage. But in this year alone, in Chicago, we’ve had 34 Chicago public school students gunned down and killed. And for the most part, there has been silence. We know what to do. We’ve got to enforce the gun laws that are on the books. We’ve got to make sure that unscrupulous gun dealers aren’t loading up vans and dumping guns in our communities, because we know they’re not made in our communities. There aren’t any gun manufacturers here, right here in the middle of Detroit. But what we also have to do is to make sure that we change our politics so that we care just as much about those 30-some children in Chicago who’ve been shot as we do the children in Virginia Tech. That’s a mindset that we have to have in the White House and we don’t have it right now.

and the rest he respects the states right to choose for itself?...damn, hes almost...conservative on the issue.

There's your gun ban
Bush erred in failing to renew assault weapons ban.
Respect 2nd Amendment, but local gun bans ok
Keep guns out of inner cities--but also problem of morality.

Again...states rights is a conservative value. Bush may have erred but he said it in 2004 8 years ago and has done nothing about it. And keep guns out of inner cities BUT theres another issue too. All of which are reasonable reactions to very real issues that look to punish criminals and not law abiding gun owners like myself ...and you? Im guessing

 

[Vidi]

additionally I have to add ,Big, that after reading the whole thing a bit more thoroughly, several of those points in the list are actually "doubling up" on the same thing to make the list look longer.

Ok Im out. Got stuff to do and I have a busy weekend ahead of me. It was nice chatting with you civilly, Big. You make some good points on alot of stuff. I do however disagree with a couple of them but certainly understand why you feel that way.

 

[Dr.Traveler]

Different situations, at least until you can prove the law was definitely broken in Fast and Furious. Watergte was an impeachable offense because Nixon did in fact break the law. Fast and Furious was a law enforcement operation that went about as horribly wrong as it possibly could. That isn't illegal, just tragic.

I will say, I'm not happy with the stone walking by the Obama administration. When a military, intelligence, or law enforcement operation goes this badly it's time to throw open all the documents if you're going to have a shot at preventing a screw up like this again.

Back to the OP though, if you want two compatible things to discuss and compare, rather than Watergate, look at Iran-Contra. That has a lot of parallels to Fast and Furious, ie an operation started with good intentions that went horribly wrong.

 

[Dr Grump]

Improper English grammar ain't English.

But the words are....

give by sense words make themselves do not, english rules context

Those words are English, doesn't make the sentence English.

you've just muddled words up. Jillian did not...

 

[NeoTemplar]

Fast and Furious thats either a movie or somebodies wife is cheating on him

 

[TheGreatGatsby]

Different situations, at least until you can prove the law was definitely broken in Fast and Furious. Watergte was an impeachable offense because Nixon did in fact break the law. Fast and Furious was a law enforcement operation that went about as horribly wrong as it possibly could. That isn't illegal, just tragic.

I will say, I'm not happy with the stone walking by the Obama administration. When a military, intelligence, or law enforcement operation goes this badly it's time to throw open all the documents if you're going to have a shot at preventing a screw up like this again.

Back to the OP though, if you want two compatible things to discuss and compare, rather than Watergate, look at Iran-Contra. That has a lot of parallels to Fast and Furious, ie an operation started with good intentions that went horribly wrong.

1. Was it ever proven that Nixon illegally did anything? We assume he did, but do we know 100 percent for a fact? It seems me that Ford pardoned him before we could get to that point.

2. I wouldn't be quick to say that there was nothing illegal about Fast And Furious. For instance I think there's already been a lot of perjury to Congress.

3. I don't think a president has to do anything illegal to be impeached. In fact, I don't even know if there is any sort of standard for impeachment. I don't believe there is. But I do know that Congress should have strong rationale. And I think lying and deceiving the American people while costing lives would raise up to that level frankly. My belief is that if by some miracle Obama wins a second term then we'll likely see some sort of impeachment proceedings.

4. Stonewalling? That's tip of the ice burg. It comes down to flat out criminal lying or complete and total incompetence. For instance, if our own government is giving arms to Mexican druglords w/o high ranking members of government even knowing about it then that is completely incompetent. And the fact that nobody has been fired for this? That's just further total incompetence and lack of accountability.

But really, nobody's been fired b/c they're busy covering up IMO.

5. It doesn't matter if Iran Contra and F&F are more comparable in your opinion. The question is which is worse, Watergate or F&F. It's a very valid question for a lot of reasons, just as comparisons of IC and F&F are valid.

 

[billyerock1991]

I think it's a very interesting question. Most were very willing to crucify the President over Watergate. So what about 'Fast & Furious?' What do you think?

not in the least ... not even close ... whats going to happen is the republicans are going to get it slammed back in their face for lying an manipulating the truth ....

 

[TheGreatGatsby]

I think it's a very interesting question. Most were very willing to crucify the President over Watergate. So what about 'Fast & Furious?' What do you think?

not in the least ... not even close ... whats going to happen is the republicans are going to get it slammed back in their face for lying an manipulating the truth ....

And in other news you're still a political hack

 

[jillian]

you've just muddled words up. Jillian did not...

no. i didn't. but i suppose if one has nothing to say, one would focus on something like whether or not i use caps.

ah well..

 

[paulitician]

you've just muddled words up. Jillian did not...

no. i didn't. but i suppose if one has nothing to say, one would focus on something like whether or not i use caps.

ah well..

Stop being the obedient Nazi. Your defense of Obama & Holder on this, is in very bad taste. Try being good & decent. Think about Brian Terry and his Family. What do you owe the Democratic Party? Why so obedient & loyal? What have they done for you that would make you defend the indefensible this way? No Party is worth selling your soul. I really did think better of you. You've actually disappointed me. You really should reconsider your defense of Obama & Holder.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

Sorry man I dont see it. When you read the various points one by one, it doesnt hold up. hes not saying BAN anything, hes saying ENFORCE existing laws or let states decide.

...from your link



and the rest he respects the states right to choose for itself?...damn, hes almost...conservative on the issue.

There's your gun ban
Bush erred in failing to renew assault weapons ban.
Respect 2nd Amendment, but local gun bans ok
Keep guns out of inner cities--but also problem of morality.

Again...states rights is a conservative value. Bush may have erred but he said it in 2004 8 years ago and has done nothing about it. And keep guns out of inner cities BUT theres another issue too. All of which are reasonable reactions to very real issues that look to punish criminals and not law abiding gun owners like myself ...and you? Im guessing

The second amendment is for all citizens not some citizens if their states says so. The second amendment is not a states right issue because it's protected by the U.S. Constitution which makes it the authority of the federal government. obama is not a constitutional wiz kid, don't you know that by now?

 

[Quantum Windbag]

But the words are....

give by sense words make themselves do not, english rules context

Those words are English, doesn't make the sentence English.

you've just muddled words up. Jillian did not...

Ignoring the rules of English grammar because it is to hard to hit a shift key is muddling words.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

you've just muddled words up. Jillian did not...

no. i didn't. but i suppose if one has nothing to say, one would focus on something like whether or not i use caps.

ah well..

I have presented more facts to support my side than you have to support yours, and you have ignored them all. I even used Holders own words to prove that your claims that this started under Bush were wrong, and you ignored all of them

Personally, I don't care if you use capitalization or not, but I am willing to bet your professors in law school, your peers, the judges you file motions with, and your English teachers throughout all your years of school all agree with me that not using it prohibits you from claiming you are using English. That is what I object to, not your posting style.

Why don't you prove me wrong by filing a motion without using the shift key sometime?

 

[Rinata]

Well Obama did say he killed bin Laden, even though he was thousands of miles away. So if he could kill bin laden, then sure he could kill Brian Terry.

That's really dumb, even for a member of the new 3 stooges. Get help.

HELL YOU'RE BIG ENOUGH TO BE ALL THREE FAT ASS.

Love your originality. Trying to make points?? You lily-livered suck up.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

That's really dumb, even for a member of the new 3 stooges. Get help.

HELL YOU'RE BIG ENOUGH TO BE ALL THREE FAT ASS.

Love your originality. Trying to make points?? You lily-livered suck up.

Don't have to be original when it's well known.