Does Spanking kids Work?

[Chaussette]

You do what you need to do to bring about the results you want. If you want a little gang banger than don't dicipline them, and you may get your wish.

In Marine boot camp I saw brutal disipline to purge the weaknesses of many who came from a soft home - most did not make it.

If you don't disipline your child - you hate your child! Pain is a great incentive - if you use it early, you won't have to use it much!

Hitting children is for cowards.

 

[Iceweasel]

You do what you need to do to bring about the results you want. If you want a little gang banger than don't dicipline them, and you may get your wish.

In Marine boot camp I saw brutal disipline to purge the weaknesses of many who came from a soft home - most did not make it.

If you don't disipline your child - you hate your child! Pain is a great incentive - if you use it early, you won't have to use it much!

Hitting children is for cowards.

How many years did you serve in the military?

 

[Jarlaxle]

I went to school with someone whose mother was every bit as psychotic as my father. She never touched him...but every day, it was: moron, idiot, dullard, stupid, and the like. When he got a bad grade, she once told him "If I'd known you'd be this stupid, I would have aborted you." He was told that if he wasn't the valedictorian, he would be disowned.

His junior year, he got a C on a calculus test. (Note: that was a college-level course.) He wrote, "You're right, I'm stupid," on the test, went home, and hung himself in the garage. His 13-year-old sister (my wife's close friend) found his body.

His mother actually refused to pay for a funeral.

I went to school with a kid like that too, who also hung himself. Same story. He was a top student and smart as a whip. Apparently not smart enough.

Also came to the same conclusion as Luddly and Jaraxle about not procreating, for similar reasons. I know exactly what you guys mean.

Yes!!! Satan is on earth to kill and destroy,parents need to teach and warn their children,those that do not do their duty pay a ver very high price!!!

Are you in the right thread? Are you in the right FORUM?

 

[Jarlaxle]

I notice an unsurprising trend that most of those demanding spanking is evil/terrible or otherwise unacceptable tend to be people that do not have children.

I would note that you have no concept whatsoever about how to raise a child if you do not have one. That is a position born out of complete and total ignorance. Being a parent is NOT something that you teach or comes out of a manual.

Evidently, neither do people who have children.

From what I've read on this board, way too many of them have so little understanding, affection and control of their children, they actually hit them.

Now that is ignorance.

You give too much credit. It is MALICE.

 

[Jarlaxle]

I think any form of physical punishment for children should be outlawed. I've seen both extremes and its not a pretty sight. I know one guy in prison for killing his father due to the physical and mental abuse he suffered as a child. I know a woman who is a train wreck due to her parents trying to befriend her and withhold all punishment. IMHO raising your child can be done without ever laying a finger on them. It is more difficult especially if your child is willful but the results are outstanding. I relate raising children to training dogs. The same principles apply. You start young. You give them lots of opportunities to succeed. You give them as many yes's as possible. You limit the no's to whats absolutely necessary. You over celebrate their victories and use their losses as learning opportunities. Your disapproval is more than enough to punish a child if you have done everything else at least halfway right.

Asclepias, there are two things I want you to know before we discuss this further. 1), I respect you. 2), you're OK in my book. That said, we disagree a bit on some stuff.

Physical punishment should be legal, so long as it doesn't cross any boundaries. Using a paddle or a hand on the rump is very different then slapping or punching the face, or beating, kicking punching, etc. Evolution made it so that the butt has fat on it, to make sitting more comfortable, while also making disciplining your children easier for both of you.

I could cripple a child for life by paddling his/her butt.

Sometimes young kids are little demons. I was one of them. Reasoning didn't work. You couldn't reason with me, therefore, you couldn't stop me. Little ones with Attention-Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder can be so hyper and inattentive that only a few things will drive the message into the brain, and ensure it's remembered. And along the lines of being a hyper, evil, and intelligent brat, I soon learned that buying my love and obedience could be abused by me. Hitler did it, too. Sending me to my room did nothing, because video games. Having me stand in the corner did nothing but give me time to collect and organize my evil plans. Every little chink in my parents' armor was learned and abused, making it easy to come out ahead in bargaining.

Then the day came when it all stopped. I learned fear. After breaking something else Mom and Dad brought me into the living room, and I was notified that my butt was going to be spanked. This was new to me, because everything had been going so well. The very thought of this impending attack on my behind made me think that maybe, just maybe, my parents wouldn't lay down and take it any more. So with the bending of my body over Dad's knee, and the torture of the eternal two minutes, fear was not only learned... but remembered. Needless to say, so did respect. And with that my dreams of global domination came to an end.

If you my friend can get your children to obey you without having to spank their behinds, you are fortunate. That is rare, and was certainly not the case for my parents. Interestingly enough, we trained our puppy by scruffing her as punishment for biting people, running away, etc. She was a very loving, obedient, loyal sweetheart, and never got in trouble with the pound.

What you've mentioned about celebrating their victories and using their losses as learning opportunities is good, and I could see using that side-by-side with spanking out really bad behavior (maybe a caveat here would be to not over-celebrate, though?). If you were my parent, and I was very young, you would have to control me with spanking (give me very good reason to fear, respect, and obey you), or I'd likely burn your house down because no one's given me reason to not dare explore with matches.

Sometimes spanking is necessary and justified, and if you have reason to do so as a parent, you also have to keep it in moderation.

No. It is NEVER necessary, it is NEVER justified, and it is NEVER the right thing to do. Anyone doing it needs to be stopped by any means necessary up to and including lethal force.

 

[Jarlaxle]

It depends on the child. My son got wooden spoons broken over his backside. His granddaughter has never even gotten a harsh word. She just never does anything wrong. She wants to discuss issues first. She's four. She discusses everything with Grampa.

Yeah, yeah, yeah...you being a psycho is not news.

 

[Jarlaxle]

You do what you need to do to bring about the results you want. If you want a little gang banger than don't dicipline them, and you may get your wish.

In Marine boot camp I saw brutal disipline to purge the weaknesses of many who came from a soft home - most did not make it.

If you don't disipline your child - you hate your child! Pain is a great incentive - if you use it early, you won't have to use it much!

How psychotic.

 

[Jarlaxle]

That is brilliant, Professor! I love that lesson. There is a great story about a bishop named Fenelon who tutored the incorrigible son of a king. I believe it was the king of England. The boy was known for throwing terrible tantrums when it rained outside and Fenelon was hired for his wisdom on how to handle the boy and help him gain control of his wild emotions. He ordered all the help to ignore the boys tantrums and instead look at him with pity - which would lead to the boy thinking about why everyone was looking at him that way and avoiding him during his tantrums. The boy began to feel embarrassed about how he was acting. He stopped throwing tantrums. Fenelon rewarded his efforts with much praise and gained the boys trust. He learned what interested the boy and helped him develop his natural talents. He always kept his word and taught the future king the importance of good virtues. The boy was transformed and everyone was looking forward to the day he would take the throne. Unfortunately he became sick before taking the throne and died. That is just one example of wisdom solving what a Kings entire court could not!

I maintain that ostracism is one of the most powerful tools. I forgot where I picked it up but I read a book where if you did something outside of the tribal laws they acted like you did not exist or you were a ghost. It was either a NA tribe or an African tribe.

I wish my father had ignored me. Honestly...not only would I not have minded, I'd have probably enjoyed it.

 

[Ringel05]

Well then I guess I don't follow the logic. I've read several posters here comment something to the effect that "I got spanked and I deserve it", so they must remember, if they can now conclude they deserved it.

(Of course what that makes me immediately think is, if you deserved it and you know you deserved it, then why would you commit the infraction in the first place, but I wouldn't expect an answer on that...)

I guess what I'm getting at is that while I remember the punishments and the angst that came with them, that memory is clear and easy to recall, but trying to remember what the infraction was that brought any of them about draws a blank. Except I do remember that the parent was enraged -- that's it.

So for me at least, the take-home message was "pain sucks". Nothing more than that. And that's meant as an answer to the OP question, "does it work?". Apparently it doesn't, or I would have remembered what the hell at least some of the "lessons" were.

There are a few responses to this.

First, different people consider spanking appropriate at different ages.

Next, I happen to have a bad memory, so I have a bias about people remembering a lot of specific childhood incidents.

I also think that we often color our memories over time, so I find it hard to trust the efficacy of someone's memories of specific childhood incidents.

I would imagine that most people were either spanked later in life than I would consider effective, or simply remember having done bad things and getting spanked in a general sense. I know I was spanked, but not how often, or for what particularly, nor do I remember any particular spanking. I imagine I deserved it at least some of the time, as children tend to do some bad or dangerous things at times.

As I've said, I get the impression you had far more than spanking done to you. I would guess that I would say you were beaten and abused, which is a far more traumatic kind of experience than simple spanking and more likely to imprint on your memory.

However, I don't think you are really grasping the idea behind spanking, or even most parental discipline. It is not about one single incident of discipline remaining with a person for their entire life. It is just a single part of teaching any particular lesson. If someone is never spanked as a child, remembers being put in time outs, but not the particular reasons for those time outs, does that mean they were ineffective? No. It isn't about what specifics you remember as an adult, it's about learning general behaviors. Don't touch a hot stove. Don't play with electric sockets. Don't run with scissors. Don't talk back to your mother. Whatever the bad behavior is, the spank is, hopefully, an emphasis to the verbal lesson rather than a lesson in itself.

So even if you have completely forgotten the reason for a spanking as an adult, if you remembered it as a child and stopped some bad behavior in part because of it, it was effective.

Again, I don't want to equate what you went through to the kind of spanking I'm talking about.

I do remember (and this would be no older than five, I know that by where we were living) being chewed out big time by my father for running out into the street where apparently a car had to stop short. I don't remember being struck over that, but I do remember the anger, which was common to both that incident and the belt.

While I understand the reason not to run out in the street without looking, I never understood, and still don't understand to this day, his reaction or how that was supposed to convey a lesson to a toddler. All his action taught me was that he was a dick. My mother explained it to me later in a calm, rational conversation, and that is when I learned the lesson -- or even comprehended what I had done.

I still come back to this: I don't believe people are motivated by negatives. I really don't.

If you fathers reaction is the same reaction I would have had it's an emotional sudden fear reaction resulting in anger at the sudden "start" of fear. It's more common than you think and being an involuntary adrenalin reaction in some people........
Jeremy's way worked for him and his child, others who moderately to lightly spanked worked for them and their children.
The cookie cutter approach never works for everyone especially since each and every one of us deal with stimuli differently. That doesn't mean the truly abusive need to be given a pass which begs the real question, where is that line drawn. Those who are very abusive may think their way is best, those who have truly been abused cannot comprehend any form of physical punishment as not abusive as they have no real basis of comparison. Also those who have had success raising their children without any physical or (seeming or real) anger related punishment cannot see past their own success and almost all judge based on these individual experiences.

 

[Luddly Neddite]

I do remember (and this would be no older than five, I know that by where we were living) being chewed out big time by my father for running out into the street where apparently a car had to stop short. I don't remember being struck over that, but I do remember the anger, which was common to both that incident and the belt.

While I understand the reason not to run out in the street without looking, I never understood, and still don't understand to this day, his reaction or how that was supposed to convey a lesson to a toddler. All his action taught me was that he was a dick. My mother explained it to me later in a calm, rational conversation, and that is when I learned the lesson -- or even comprehended what I had done.

I still come back to this: I don't believe people are motivated by negatives. I really don't.

I'm going to agree with you on that one, Pogo. I didn't spank my child as a toddler and he was a most loving child. He was not spoiled in the least and others told me he was a very sweet boy. He grew up to be a thoughtful man and a good father. I don't like the word "punish" and I don't like the idea of "refined violence" as Jake put it - I'm not accusing people who spank their children of child abuse but I am questioning their patience to raise children. If a parent is extremely angry they should wait until a latter time to discuss what happened. Not acting in the heat of the moment. I believe if parents spent quality time with their children they wouldn't be acting out half the time anyhow. They are hungry for attention. I'd say do the real job of parenting and teach through example, fun videos - veggie tales has many great videos on good manners and behavior - do's and don'ts -watch it with them and talk about it! ... go to the parks and let them get some exercise, do what they would like to do more often, don't wear them out at shopping malls, when they should have a nap or their lunch time... give them the freedom to have a bad mood day, to feel bored and the room to work it out without interfering.

* I do not believe it is EVER alright for a parent to raise their voice to their child. If you wouldn't yell at your neighbor or co worker why in the world would you ever terrify your own child by yelling at them? Screaming at a child in anger is verbal abuse. It shouldn't happen.

What if you would yell at a neighbor or co worker?

Abusive bullies never yell at or hit anyone who can defend themselves.

 

[Luddly Neddite]

You do what you need to do to bring about the results you want. If you want a little gang banger than don't dicipline them, and you may get your wish.

In Marine boot camp I saw brutal disipline to purge the weaknesses of many who came from a soft home - most did not make it.

If you don't disipline your child - you hate your child! Pain is a great incentive - if you use it early, you won't have to use it much!

Another poster above bragged about abusing their son by breaking wooden spoons over his backside. One would have to despise their children to want to cause them pain.

How many years did you serve in the military?

This thread is not about the military. Its about spanking children.

Children should not treated like their family is a boot camp.

WHAT is wrong with people that they would do these horrible things to CHILDREN???

 

[Iceweasel]

This thread is not about the military. Its about spanking children.

Children should not treated like their family is a boot camp.

WHAT is wrong with people that they would do these horrible things to CHILDREN???

What is wrong is the people that don't. We have the results in front of our eyes, all you need to do is take the blinders off and look. I see graffitti all over the place now while 10 years ago there was none. To you it's a coincidence, to me it's obvious. Your method clearly has poor results.

 

[Luddly Neddite]

This thread is not about the military. Its about spanking children.

Children should not treated like their family is a boot camp.

WHAT is wrong with people that they would do these horrible things to CHILDREN???

What is wrong is the people that don't. We have the results in front of our eyes, all you need to do is take the blinders off and look. I see graffitti all over the place now while 10 years ago there was none. To you it's a coincidence, to me it's obvious. Your method clearly has poor results.

1. How do you know taggers were or were not hit as children?
2. How do you know what I think about taggers?
3. How do you know what "my method" is?

You've taken zero information and drawn a lot of conclusions from ignorance. Just as you did with your asssssumption that I'm gay.

You're welcome to your opinions but please don't confuse them with facts.

 

[Iceweasel]

1. How do you know taggers were or were not hit as children?
2. How do you know what I think about taggers?
3. How do you know what "my method" is?

You've taken zero information and drawn a lot of conclusions from ignorance. Just as you did with your asssssumption that I'm gay.

You're welcome to your opinions but please don't confuse them with facts.

Taggers? Oh, you mean vandals. I go though life fully awake. I see the kids and I hear more and more people like you talk about how evil spanking is and I can add 2+2. It's called thinking.

 

[Chaussette]

You do what you need to do to bring about the results you want. If you want a little gang banger than don't dicipline them, and you may get your wish.

In Marine boot camp I saw brutal disipline to purge the weaknesses of many who came from a soft home - most did not make it.

If you don't disipline your child - you hate your child! Pain is a great incentive - if you use it early, you won't have to use it much!

Hitting children is for cowards.

How many years did you serve in the military?

Wtf does that have to do with hitting children? Raising children isn't fucking boot camp.

 

[Luddly Neddite]

1. How do you know taggers were or were not hit as children?
2. How do you know what i think about taggers?
3. How do you know what "my method" is?

You've taken zero information and drawn a lot of conclusions from ignorance. Just as you did with your asssssumption that i'm gay.

You're welcome to your opinions but please don't confuse them with facts.

taggers? Oh, you mean vandals. I go though life fully awake. I see the kids and i hear more and more people like you talk about how evil spanking is and i can add 2+2. It's called thinking.

iow,

you've taken zero information and drawn a lot of conclusions from ignorance. Just as you did with your asssssumption that i'm gay.

 

[Iceweasel]

Hitting children is for cowards.

How many years did you serve in the military?

Wtf does that have to do with hitting children? Raising children isn't fucking boot camp.

It was a followup question to the post you responded to in your typical fashion. He brought up the point that tough discipline made weak men strong and you just puked up your standard hitting children is for cowards response. The fact that spanking has and does work and many people, including military, employ it. You calling them cowards is laughable. My guess is that you never served and have no idea what he was talking about.

 

[Chaussette]

How many years did you serve in the military?

Wtf does that have to do with hitting children? Raising children isn't fucking boot camp.

It was a followup question to the post you responded to in your typical fashion. He brought up the point that tough discipline made weak men strong and you just puked up your standard hitting children is for cowards response. The fact that spanking has and does work and many people, including military, employ it. You calling them cowards is laughable. My guess is that you never served and have no idea what he was talking about.

They spank you in the army? Ya, that's not too gay.

Hitting children IS cowardly, and shows a certain lack of intelligence, like, you can only see violence as the solution.

 

[Book of Jeremiah]

That is brilliant, Professor! I love that lesson. There is a great story about a bishop named Fenelon who tutored the incorrigible son of a king. I believe it was the king of England. The boy was known for throwing terrible tantrums when it rained outside and Fenelon was hired for his wisdom on how to handle the boy and help him gain control of his wild emotions. He ordered all the help to ignore the boys tantrums and instead look at him with pity - which would lead to the boy thinking about why everyone was looking at him that way and avoiding him during his tantrums. The boy began to feel embarrassed about how he was acting. He stopped throwing tantrums. Fenelon rewarded his efforts with much praise and gained the boys trust. He learned what interested the boy and helped him develop his natural talents. He always kept his word and taught the future king the importance of good virtues. The boy was transformed and everyone was looking forward to the day he would take the throne. Unfortunately he became sick before taking the throne and died. That is just one example of wisdom solving what a Kings entire court could not!

I maintain that ostracism is one of the most powerful tools. I forgot where I picked it up but I read a book where if you did something outside of the tribal laws they acted like you did not exist or you were a ghost. It was either a NA tribe or an African tribe.

Someone here asked me to share this story as it reinforces the thought that there are other methods besides spanking to bring correction.

When my son was very small I told him if he would be honest and tell me what he's done wrong (instead of my having to find out ) the consequences would be small - something he would feel was more than fair and I would keep my word on the matter.

So one day he came into my room and gave me a dollar bill his grandmother had given him and said I don't deserve this. ( he had torn it up before handing it to me just to emphasize his misery! ) I asked him why and he said the neighbors son had put him on his handlebars and rode him to 7/11 ( which he wasn't allowed to do ) he went inside with him and the kid put candy in his pocket and had him walk out with it telling him he had stole the candy really - not my son. The boy was older and my son went along. Yes it was a bad decision but how wonderful that he came and told me how badly he felt and cried while he was telling me about it! Why was he crying? Not because he thought he was getting a spanking. Because he genuinely felt guilt for something he had done. I told him I had been tricked before and regretted not speaking up.

We talked it over and I told him I was willing to pay for the candy that was taken and accompany him to the store ( to apologise to the manager ) if he was willing to go with me to the neighbors house and talk to the boys mother about what happened. He agreed. We went to their door and the mother and boy were standing there. Her son was a few years older and didn't say a word. The mother said to her son in front of us if I find out you did this I'll kill you! My son and I were horrified. No wonder the boy wouldn't tell his mother the truth. He was afraid of her!

Fear is a very negative emotion to raise children by. It inhibits the ability to trust and be open with the very people they should be able to trust the most! Their parents!

 

[Iceweasel]

They spank you in the army? Ya, that's not too gay.

Hitting children IS cowardly, and shows a certain lack of intelligence, like, you can only see violence as the solution.

Don't be too quick to criticize intellect. You missed the analogy, and it was a pretty good one. In boot camp you learn discipline, it's physical and the punishment is physical, in the form of pushups, running, screaming in the face, insults, standing still for long periods, etc.

We had a few guys that couldn't cut it, cried like babies. One of them was 6'2 at least but a big wimp. Did we hate our drill instructors or consider it abusive? No. We like the guy and threw him a party afterwards because we knew that he had our best interests in mind. And I would suggest that ours was not a unique experience.

Same with spanking. Some kids need it, some don't. And most that got it, knew the difference between a spanking and a beating.