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You do what you need to do to bring about the results you want. If you want a little gang banger than don't dicipline them, and you may get your wish.
In Marine boot camp I saw brutal disipline to purge the weaknesses of many who came from a soft home - most did not make it.
If you don't disipline your child - you hate your child! Pain is a great incentive - if you use it early, you won't have to use it much!
You do what you need to do to bring about the results you want. If you want a little gang banger than don't dicipline them, and you may get your wish.
In Marine boot camp I saw brutal disipline to purge the weaknesses of many who came from a soft home - most did not make it.
If you don't disipline your child - you hate your child! Pain is a great incentive - if you use it early, you won't have to use it much!
I grew up with gang bangers. The worst of them got beat and abused constantly for any and every infraction. It made most of them mean and turned them into bullies. Show me a hardcore gangbanger and you will find someone with abuse in their background.
My wife and I were foster parents during the days when spanking was allowed. I was president of my state association of FP when the ruling from the state came down outlawing spanking. A lot of FP just gave it up. We went through intensive training to teach FP different methods of discipline.
It seems to me that spanking had its place, but this is a new generation. Many kids would rather be spanked than go through the process of consequence. The fine line between spanking for discipline and parental abuse has taken the former off the board.
So the answer to your question is, Yes, it does work with some kids. But No, it is no longer an option in today's society.
speak for yourself, I spank my child when necessary.
There are a few responses to this.
First, different people consider spanking appropriate at different ages.
Next, I happen to have a bad memory, so I have a bias about people remembering a lot of specific childhood incidents.
I also think that we often color our memories over time, so I find it hard to trust the efficacy of someone's memories of specific childhood incidents.
I would imagine that most people were either spanked later in life than I would consider effective, or simply remember having done bad things and getting spanked in a general sense. I know I was spanked, but not how often, or for what particularly, nor do I remember any particular spanking. I imagine I deserved it at least some of the time, as children tend to do some bad or dangerous things at times.
As I've said, I get the impression you had far more than spanking done to you. I would guess that I would say you were beaten and abused, which is a far more traumatic kind of experience than simple spanking and more likely to imprint on your memory.
However, I don't think you are really grasping the idea behind spanking, or even most parental discipline. It is not about one single incident of discipline remaining with a person for their entire life. It is just a single part of teaching any particular lesson. If someone is never spanked as a child, remembers being put in time outs, but not the particular reasons for those time outs, does that mean they were ineffective? No. It isn't about what specifics you remember as an adult, it's about learning general behaviors. Don't touch a hot stove. Don't play with electric sockets. Don't run with scissors. Don't talk back to your mother. Whatever the bad behavior is, the spank is, hopefully, an emphasis to the verbal lesson rather than a lesson in itself.
So even if you have completely forgotten the reason for a spanking as an adult, if you remembered it as a child and stopped some bad behavior in part because of it, it was effective.
Again, I don't want to equate what you went through to the kind of spanking I'm talking about.
I do remember (and this would be no older than five, I know that by where we were living) being chewed out big time by my father for running out into the street where apparently a car had to stop short. I don't remember being struck over that, but I do remember the anger, which was common to both that incident and the belt.
While I understand the reason not to run out in the street without looking, I never understood, and still don't understand to this day, his reaction or how that was supposed to convey a lesson to a toddler. All his action taught me was that he was a dick. My mother explained it to me later in a calm, rational conversation, and that is when I learned the lesson -- or even comprehended what I had done.
I still come back to this: I don't believe people are motivated by negatives. I really don't.
If you fathers reaction is the same reaction I would have had it's an emotional sudden fear reaction resulting in anger at the sudden "start" of fear. It's more common than you think and being an involuntary adrenalin reaction in some people........
Jeremy's way worked for him and his child, others who moderately to lightly spanked worked for them and their children.
The cookie cutter approach never works for everyone especially since each and every one of us deal with stimuli differently. That doesn't mean the truly abusive need to be given a pass which begs the real question, where is that line drawn. Those who are very abusive may think their way is best, those who have truly been abused cannot comprehend any form of physical punishment as not abusive as they have no real basis of comparison. Also those who have had success raising their children without any physical or (seeming or real) anger related punishment cannot see past their own success and almost all judge based on these individual experiences.
The use of physical violence as a reprimand teaches children that physical violence is a useful and necessary manner of serving "justice," which is subjectively applied by each individual.
Not only does spanking ignore the countless detrimental externalities that often result (for both that individual personally, and the surrounding environment he/she affects), it isn't even as effective as alternative strategies of positive reinforcement.
Whether there are individuals that survived such forms of punishment and turned into great individuals tells us absolutely nothing scientifically. By that logic, all it would take to prove that cigarettes are harmless is to find a few centenarians that died of natural causes in spite of a lifelong smoking habit. I'm sure it has happened plenty, as we expect such outliers to occur in science and statistics.
The use of physical violence as a reprimand teaches children that physical violence is a useful and necessary manner of serving "justice," which is subjectively applied by each individual.
Not only does spanking ignore the countless detrimental externalities that often result (for both that individual personally, and the surrounding environment he/she affects), it isn't even as effective as alternative strategies of positive reinforcement.
Whether there are individuals that survived such forms of punishment and turned into great individuals tells us absolutely nothing scientifically. By that logic, all it would take to prove that cigarettes are harmless is to find a few centenarians that died of natural causes in spite of a lifelong smoking habit. I'm sure it has happened plenty, as we expect such outliers to occur in science and statistics.
The use of physical violence as a reprimand teaches children that physical violence is a useful and necessary manner of serving "justice," which is subjectively applied by each individual.
Not only does spanking ignore the countless detrimental externalities that often result (for both that individual personally, and the surrounding environment he/she affects), it isn't even as effective as alternative strategies of positive reinforcement.
Whether there are individuals that survived such forms of punishment and turned into great individuals tells us absolutely nothing scientifically. By that logic, all it would take to prove that cigarettes are harmless is to find a few centenarians that died of natural causes in spite of a lifelong smoking habit. I'm sure it has happened plenty, as we expect such outliers to occur in science and statistics.
Why do you assume that those who 'survived' spanking and became great individuals are so few and far between? Why do you assume they are outliers rather than the norm?
What is wrong is the people that don't. We have the results in front of our eyes, all you need to do is take the blinders off and look. I see graffitti all over the place now while 10 years ago there was none. To you it's a coincidence, to me it's obvious. Your method clearly has poor results.This thread is not about the military. Its about spanking children.
Children should not treated like their family is a boot camp.
WHAT is wrong with people that they would do these horrible things to CHILDREN???
That is brilliant, Professor! I love that lesson. There is a great story about a bishop named Fenelon who tutored the incorrigible son of a king. I believe it was the king of England. The boy was known for throwing terrible tantrums when it rained outside and Fenelon was hired for his wisdom on how to handle the boy and help him gain control of his wild emotions. He ordered all the help to ignore the boys tantrums and instead look at him with pity - which would lead to the boy thinking about why everyone was looking at him that way and avoiding him during his tantrums. The boy began to feel embarrassed about how he was acting. He stopped throwing tantrums. Fenelon rewarded his efforts with much praise and gained the boys trust. He learned what interested the boy and helped him develop his natural talents. He always kept his word and taught the future king the importance of good virtues. The boy was transformed and everyone was looking forward to the day he would take the throne. Unfortunately he became sick before taking the throne and died. That is just one example of wisdom solving what a Kings entire court could not!
I maintain that ostracism is one of the most powerful tools. I forgot where I picked it up but I read a book where if you did something outside of the tribal laws they acted like you did not exist or you were a ghost. It was either a NA tribe or an African tribe.
Someone here asked me to share this story as it reinforces the thought that there are other methods besides spanking to bring correction.
When my son was very small I told him if he would be honest and tell me what he's done wrong (instead of my having to find out ) the consequences would be small - something he would feel was more than fair and I would keep my word on the matter.
So one day he came into my room and gave me a dollar bill his grandmother had given him and said I don't deserve this. ( he had torn it up before handing it to me just to emphasize his misery! ) I asked him why and he said the neighbors son had put him on his handlebars and rode him to 7/11 ( which he wasn't allowed to do ) he went inside with him and the kid put candy in his pocket and had him walk out with it telling him he had stole the candy really - not my son. The boy was older and my son went along. Yes it was a bad decision but how wonderful that he came and told me how badly he felt and cried while he was telling me about it! Why was he crying? Not because he thought he was getting a spanking. Because he genuinely felt guilt for something he had done. I told him I had been tricked before and regretted not speaking up.
We talked it over and I told him I was willing to pay for the candy that was taken and accompany him to the store ( to apologise to the manager ) if he was willing to go with me to the neighbors house and talk to the boys mother about what happened. He agreed. We went to their door and the mother and boy were standing there. Her son was a few years older and didn't say a word. The mother said to her son in front of us if I find out you did this I'll kill you! My son and I were horrified. No wonder the boy wouldn't tell his mother the truth. He was afraid of her!
Fear is a very negative emotion to raise children by. It inhibits the ability to trust and be open with the very people they should be able to trust the most! Their parents!
Question asked, question answered;
Most of the people I corresponded with in prison ministry were beaten severely as children. Some went on to boot camp, all went on to prison. The common denominator with all of them was their parents used violence as a teaching tool and it backfired. More discipline is not what brought them around. Love brought them around and love transformed them.
You could go to any prison and ask them if its the punishment there that will keep them from returning. They will tell you that isn't it. It's finding their self worth and purpose and feeling loved that will keep them from returning.
I think any form of physical punishment for children should be outlawed. I've seen both extremes and its not a pretty sight. I know one guy in prison for killing his father due to the physical and mental abuse he suffered as a child. I know a woman who is a train wreck due to her parents trying to befriend her and withhold all punishment. IMHO raising your child can be done without ever laying a finger on them. It is more difficult especially if your child is willful but the results are outstanding. I relate raising children to training dogs. The same principles apply. You start young. You give them lots of opportunities to succeed. You give them as many yes's as possible. You limit the no's to whats absolutely necessary. You over celebrate their victories and use their losses as learning opportunities. Your disapproval is more than enough to punish a child if you have done everything else at least halfway right.
Asclepias, there are two things I want you to know before we discuss this further. 1), I respect you. 2), you're OK in my book. That said, we disagree a bit on some stuff.
Physical punishment should be legal, so long as it doesn't cross any boundaries. Using a paddle or a hand on the rump is very different then slapping or punching the face, or beating, kicking punching, etc. Evolution made it so that the butt has fat on it, to make sitting more comfortable, while also making disciplining your children easier for both of you.
I could cripple a child for life by paddling his/her butt.
Sometimes young kids are little demons. I was one of them. Reasoning didn't work. You couldn't reason with me, therefore, you couldn't stop me. Little ones with Attention-Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder can be so hyper and inattentive that only a few things will drive the message into the brain, and ensure it's remembered. And along the lines of being a hyper, evil, and intelligent brat, I soon learned that buying my love and obedience could be abused by me. Hitler did it, too. Sending me to my room did nothing, because video games. Having me stand in the corner did nothing but give me time to collect and organize my evil plans. Every little chink in my parents' armor was learned and abused, making it easy to come out ahead in bargaining.
Then the day came when it all stopped. I learned fear. After breaking something else Mom and Dad brought me into the living room, and I was notified that my butt was going to be spanked. This was new to me, because everything had been going so well. The very thought of this impending attack on my behind made me think that maybe, just maybe, my parents wouldn't lay down and take it any more. So with the bending of my body over Dad's knee, and the torture of the eternal two minutes, fear was not only learned... but remembered. Needless to say, so did respect. And with that my dreams of global domination came to an end.
If you my friend can get your children to obey you without having to spank their behinds, you are fortunate. That is rare, and was certainly not the case for my parents. Interestingly enough, we trained our puppy by scruffing her as punishment for biting people, running away, etc. She was a very loving, obedient, loyal sweetheart, and never got in trouble with the pound.
What you've mentioned about celebrating their victories and using their losses as learning opportunities is good, and I could see using that side-by-side with spanking out really bad behavior (maybe a caveat here would be to not over-celebrate, though?). If you were my parent, and I was very young, you would have to control me with spanking (give me very good reason to fear, respect, and obey you), or I'd likely burn your house down because no one's given me reason to not dare explore with matches.
Sometimes spanking is necessary and justified, and if you have reason to do so as a parent, you also have to keep it in moderation.
No. It is NEVER necessary, it is NEVER justified, and it is NEVER the right thing to do. Anyone doing it needs to be stopped by any means necessary up to and including lethal force.
Which is odd, because being spanked as discipline taught me to not ever hit people except for truly self-defense situations.
Which is odd, because being spanked as discipline taught me to not ever hit people except for truly self-defense situations.
Can you elaborate on the process of that conclusion?
How did that lesson form? Did it amount to a change in behaviour, or was it establishing that standard from a cold start?
In other words, how did that physical contact make its point? And were there no other factors in that lesson? Like peer pressure?
