Does Spanking kids Work?

[Montrovant]

Yup, not even on the same plane dood. Because everybody knows, the one and only reason graffiti exists anywhere is that somebody's parents forgot to spank them for it.

You did compare spanking to invading a country.....

No I didn't. I used those elements in an analogy, out of which you've stripped the rest of the context so that no meaning remains, just to make it look bad.

Not the same thing anyway-- the trollposter here made a leap of false causation, assuming that the concept of spanking is the one and only reason that graffiti exists. Which is, of course, ridiculous.

You may not have liked that analogy way back, but that's got zero to do with somebody else's fallacy of causation.

Clearly my humor failed to translate to type.

 

[FA_Q2]

I notice an unsurprising trend that most of those demanding spanking is evil/terrible or otherwise unacceptable tend to be people that do not have children.

I would note that you have no concept whatsoever about how to raise a child if you do not have one. That is a position born out of complete and total ignorance. Being a parent is NOT something that you teach or comes out of a manual.

Evidently, neither do people who have children.

From what I've read on this board, way too many of them have so little understanding, affection and control of their children, they actually hit them.

Now that is ignorance.

Yeah right. None of us have ever been children. We have no idea because we're "completely and totally ignorant" of what that could be like.

Yes, you are.

The simple fact that you thing that being a child at some point gives you insight on anything parental in nature reflects that. I have no idea how you could possibly think that being a child somehow means you understand one iota about parenting much less the simple fact that there is no single toolkit to handle every single child.

 

[Pogo]

Evidently, neither do people who have children.

From what I've read on this board, way too many of them have so little understanding, affection and control of their children, they actually hit them.

Now that is ignorance.

Yeah right. None of us have ever been children. We have no idea because we're "completely and totally ignorant" of what that could be like.

Yes, you are.

The simple fact that you thing that being a child at some point gives you insight on anything parental in nature reflects that. I have no idea how you could possibly think that being a child somehow means you understand one iota about parenting much less the simple fact that there is no single toolkit to handle every single child.

Oh please -- spare me the "I know everything" speech... it ain't selling.

 

[FA_Q2]

My wife and I were foster parents during the days when spanking was allowed. I was president of my state association of FP when the ruling from the state came down outlawing spanking. A lot of FP just gave it up. We went through intensive training to teach FP different methods of discipline.

It seems to me that spanking had its place, but this is a new generation. Many kids would rather be spanked than go through the process of consequence. The fine line between spanking for discipline and parental abuse has taken the former off the board.

So the answer to your question is, Yes, it does work with some kids. But No, it is no longer an option in today's society.

Except you are completely incorrect that it is no longer an option in our society.

The simple fact is that it is not only an option but one that is practiced regularly by a plurality of parents today.
Poll: Most Approve of Spanking Kids - ABC News

I would also point out to both you and Pogo that spanking is NOT a useful tool if it is practiced in a vacuum. IOW, you can’t just spank your child and be done with it. That seems to be the stance that Pogo is arguing from (as well as equating it with beatings) when that is guaranteed to fail. Such comes not only with a why but also other consequences. Parents that simply spank and be done with it will quickly find out that children don’t really care (in general) because the event is to temporary.

 

[FA_Q2]

Sometimes you have to legislate culture. At some time in US history it was ok to lynch people. In the wild west it was ok to have gun fights on main street. At another time it was ok to fight dogs. At what point do you stop waiting for culture to change in order to stop heinous acts no matter how accepted they are?

I hear ya but I don't think anti-lynching laws were at all unreasonable. Nor is criminal child abuse, that's fine. I'd draw the line before making any and all spanking illegal though, even though I can't support the practice morally. It's just too slippery a slope for legislation. It would bring a judicial morass.

And I don't believe culture changes passively by waiting for it but by actively driving it by public opinion. Laws tend to follow public opinion anyway, not lead it. So what we're doing right here is a part of that active process. Bottom line is that popular behavior doesn't change because it's forced to by law; it changes because it desires the change. So the objective is to persuade the desire.

Those were just examples to show the urgency of some needed changes. If laws had not been used to force that change when do you think lynchings or dog fighting would have stopped?

The one thing I have learned is that people do not change by public opinion fast enough or completely enough without a law to spur the change. The other is if a leader can step forth and convince people to change. Most people when confronted with a choice between changing their minds and proving the other person wrong will set about looking for the proof.

You can’t legislate parenting. That simply is not going to work and I can’t fathom why you would want to. The state is one of the worst ‘parents’ a child can have. The best thing for them to do is not interfere past outright abuse.

Spanking is not abuse either no matter how you want to slice it.

 

[FA_Q2]

Yeah right. None of us have ever been children. We have no idea because we're "completely and totally ignorant" of what that could be like.

Yes, you are.

The simple fact that you thing that being a child at some point gives you insight on anything parental in nature reflects that. I have no idea how you could possibly think that being a child somehow means you understand one iota about parenting much less the simple fact that there is no single toolkit to handle every single child.

Oh please -- spare me the "I know everything" speech... it ain't selling.

Since you consistently have accused others here of ‘stuffing your mouth with straw’ I would hope you could point out where I have EVER claimed that I ‘know everything’ or even a majority of anything.
I know you can’t because I have never claimed to. I have not claimed to be the best parent either let alone perfect. What I have calmed is that you do not know what it is like to be a parent if you have not been one. Your pithy remark above just illustrates that you can’t accept that blatant reality not that I am claiming to know ‘everything.’

I haven’t tried to sell you anything. Try again.

 

[FA_Q2]

By "managed without it," do you mean ADHD?

Yes, that was the topic.

...actually, lack of social skills, a short attention span, and hyper-focusing on certain things are all manifestations of ADHD. For some children with ADHD, social interactions are problematic. The combination of impulsivity, immaturity, and difficulty reading the social cues of others can lead to difficult and painful peer relationships. Learning to get along with others is a challenge, whether at school, in sports, or with friends.

Bullshit. If a kid's world revolves around his xbox, he will have social problems and a short attention span. And will probably have the chemical signs in his noggin as a result. If one stays angry all the time, for example, he too will have created chemicals. The brain reacts to stimulus, you can effect it with your behavior. It's modern man that blames everything on biology or someone/something else. That's why we as a society are becoming weak, immoral and unresponsible. Kids need discipline, not drugs.

Yes and no.
It is very true that society in general tries to blame everything on circumstances rather than on personal responsibility. You do not act up because something made you do it – you CHOOSE to do so no matter what alphabet soup ‘affliction’ you might be diagnosed with. The idea that we need to coddle such behaviors because of your circumstance is absolutely asinine.

I also am fairly strongly against the move to drug absolutely anyone who might have an issue at one time or another. Drugs have a major side effect that no one ever actually looks at: it MASKS the problem. That is not treating it.

I can also see the other side of the issue though because I have a child that is ADHD and he requires some medication. His brain has been damaged through exposure to very high doses of radiation and that has severely affected his ability to focus. The drugs assist with that problem. So, while I see ADHD as being WAY over diagnosed and behavioral modifications should be looked at before drugs even considered, there are times when drugs are necessary. Building off the following post, such things are made more so by the restrictions that we have placed on other caregivers – primarily schools.

By now everyone has seen the principal dragging the kid to the office because the kid refused to obey. The parent complained about the treatment of her child. This never would have happened when I was a kid. My parents response would have been one of horror. What did I do that got me sent to the office? Why did I fall out when told to walk. How dare I embarass my parents like that! The adults at school would think I was an undisciplined brat and my conduct would cast my parents in a bad light. Not only would my parents have appoligized for my conduct in school, but I wouldn't be able to sit down for a week once I got home.

What seems like reasonable behavior to a child may not be in reality. Kids don't have all the capabilities and information to reason as adults do. Kids need a swat on the butt when it becomes clear that they are not going to listen to their parents instructions. When reason doesn't work, the fear of pain often does. The child doesn't have to understand why YOU think they aren't old enough to cross a busy street even when they think they are old enough,they just have obey your instructions. It could save their lives. Want to know why the kids are run amok? It's because they lack proper parental discipline. I am in no way advocating child abuse, but good old fashioned swat on the butt would save people like that principal a lot of grief.


Video Shows Principal Dragging Kindergarten Students - YouTube

And that is what I am talking about with the schools. The parents have done it to them – taken away all semblance of discipline. The flipped out over this particular principal because they dragged a student who was completely uncooperative to the office. I have no problem with that whatsoever.

I don’t think schools should be allowed to hit or spank (punishment is the realm of parenting) but they certainly should be allowed to remove a disruptive and uncooperative student. They can’t though and the children are fully aware that the teachers are completely lacking any form of discipline.

Using my son as an example, he requires no medication when at home and we actually do not give him any when he does not go to school. Last week he had none of his medication at all because he did not go to school that week and we have absolutely no problems at all at home. The school, however, is another story altogether. They are unable to deal with him because they have absolutely no authority whatsoever. I watch the way that they speak with the children and it is rather pathetic. It works for some kids, maybe even with a majority but utterly fails wherever one is willful or scatterbrained. I can get my child to sit down and focus on an hours’ worth of homework solid unmediated without a hitch and they can’t get him to do so medicated for ten minutes.

My son has done this exact thing and the answer has always been call the parents and tell them to come pick their child up. When I get there, al l have to do is utter a single word and my son does as he is told. Why is it so hard for the school then? Because they have zero presence and zero discipline.

Fortunately, he does not act up in that manner any more though – he finally realized that being at home is FAR worse than school I have more work than the teach could ever dream of and they have more toys at school then he will have at home if sent home early. I only have so much control though over his actions eight hours after the fact no matter what reward/discipline tolls I use – one of the side effects of ADHD.

 

[Tresha91203]

Yes but it is. Just because you are not aware of it doesnt make you right. I am aware of it.

I'm aware of people that have never been slaves and have never even seen an American who beat their kids.

I'm aware of Africans that abuse their children. My point is that it is not the norm in African culture. This is something Black Americans picked up from slavery. This and other bad habits.

In Ghana, not only do the parents spank their children, but any adult in range of the disrespectful or disobedient child. I don't presume that everyone in Ghana does, but no one objected either time I witnessed it. They are not descendents of slaves nor does their spanking of other people's children come from whites. In the villages, where I saw this, it is very rare to see a white person. You see more whites in Acra, but I didn't see spanking there so not sure if it is regional. I assume it is. Africa is huge with many many different cultures and languages.

 

[FA_Q2]

Most of the people I corresponded with in prison ministry were beaten severely as children. Some went on to boot camp, all went on to prison. The common denominator with all of them was their parents used violence as a teaching tool and it backfired. More discipline is not what brought them around. Love brought them around and love transformed them.

You could go to any prison and ask them if its the punishment there that will keep them from returning. They will tell you that isn't it. It's finding their self worth and purpose and feeling loved that will keep them from returning.

Most in prisons were violently abused. This is a totally different situation.

There is a stark difference in beatings and a spanking – something that the people here demanding that spanking is unacceptable refuse to acknowledge.

It would be like equating a picture of your naked 3 year old in the tub to child pornography (something else that has been tried by the parenting police before). The connection is outright laughable.

 

[Pogo]

Yes, you are.

The simple fact that you thing that being a child at some point gives you insight on anything parental in nature reflects that. I have no idea how you could possibly think that being a child somehow means you understand one iota about parenting much less the simple fact that there is no single toolkit to handle every single child.

Oh please -- spare me the "I know everything" speech... it ain't selling.

Since you consistently have accused others here of ‘stuffing your mouth with straw’ I would hope you could point out where I have EVER claimed that I ‘know everything’ or even a majority of anything.
I know you can’t because I have never claimed to. I have not claimed to be the best parent either let alone perfect. What I have calmed is that you do not know what it is like to be a parent if you have not been one. Your pithy remark above just illustrates that you can’t accept that blatant reality not that I am claiming to know ‘everything.’

I haven’t tried to sell you anything. Try again.

You've just contradicted yourself. Yeah yeah, you're a superior caste, heard it all before, not interested.

 

[Tresha91203]

That is brilliant, Professor! I love that lesson. There is a great story about a bishop named Fenelon who tutored the incorrigible son of a king. I believe it was the king of England. The boy was known for throwing terrible tantrums when it rained outside and Fenelon was hired for his wisdom on how to handle the boy and help him gain control of his wild emotions. He ordered all the help to ignore the boys tantrums and instead look at him with pity - which would lead to the boy thinking about why everyone was looking at him that way and avoiding him during his tantrums. The boy began to feel embarrassed about how he was acting. He stopped throwing tantrums. Fenelon rewarded his efforts with much praise and gained the boys trust. He learned what interested the boy and helped him develop his natural talents. He always kept his word and taught the future king the importance of good virtues. The boy was transformed and everyone was looking forward to the day he would take the throne. Unfortunately he became sick before taking the throne and died. That is just one example of wisdom solving what a Kings entire court could not!

I maintain that ostracism is one of the most powerful tools. I forgot where I picked it up but I read a book where if you did something outside of the tribal laws they acted like you did not exist or you were a ghost. It was either a NA tribe or an African tribe.

My dad did that. I learned that he loves me ... sometimes, but not to count on it. It can be taken too far and be more traumatic than a swat on the butt. Its the degree of either method. A swat on the butt, lecture, hug, then done ... or withdraw all affection until that grade comes up (9 weeks). I consider the latter neglect. The former, I'm not bothered about. I've not experienced the former, so could be wrong, but I don't believe so.

 

[M14 Shooter]

Yes.

 

[Asclepias]

That is brilliant, Professor! I love that lesson. There is a great story about a bishop named Fenelon who tutored the incorrigible son of a king. I believe it was the king of England. The boy was known for throwing terrible tantrums when it rained outside and Fenelon was hired for his wisdom on how to handle the boy and help him gain control of his wild emotions. He ordered all the help to ignore the boys tantrums and instead look at him with pity - which would lead to the boy thinking about why everyone was looking at him that way and avoiding him during his tantrums. The boy began to feel embarrassed about how he was acting. He stopped throwing tantrums. Fenelon rewarded his efforts with much praise and gained the boys trust. He learned what interested the boy and helped him develop his natural talents. He always kept his word and taught the future king the importance of good virtues. The boy was transformed and everyone was looking forward to the day he would take the throne. Unfortunately he became sick before taking the throne and died. That is just one example of wisdom solving what a Kings entire court could not!

I maintain that ostracism is one of the most powerful tools. I forgot where I picked it up but I read a book where if you did something outside of the tribal laws they acted like you did not exist or you were a ghost. It was either a NA tribe or an African tribe.

My dad did that. I learned that he loves me ... sometimes, but not to count on it. It can be taken too far and be more traumatic than a swat on the butt. Its the degree of either method. A swat on the butt, lecture, hug, then done ... or withdraw all affection until that grade comes up (9 weeks). I consider the latter neglect. The former, I'm not bothered about. I've not experienced the former, so could be wrong, but I don't believe so.

Thats pretty damn extreme and not at all what I am talking about. When I say ostracism I mean at most 10 minutes. Go sit in a room and get yourself together. When you do call me and we can talk about what happened to make you mad, act up, etc. At that point age appropriate punishment will be handed out. If you have an exceptionally good reason you get a pass.

 

[History]

I have no problem with it now or as a child because it taught me right from wrong..

The people the will have a problem with spanking kids for inappropriate behavior are the ones that usually have the uncontrollable kids in the public view and can't keep them quite..

It is part of life, do good for yourself in school and at home and you will get better rewards, for instance better Christmas and Birthday Presents, Cash Allowance, ask Mom and Dad for something you want really badly.. Or the opposite if you do really bad and act inappropriately..

What is wrong with that??

 

[Octarine]

SuperNanny never hits a child.

Supernanny hasn't any children of her own

 

[beagle9]

It just all depends on the person doing the spanking as I recall, where as if a person is qualified to discipline properly, and this is something that cannot be trained into a person (it has to come naturally), then the results are fantastic. Now if a person doesn't have the ability to do it right because they themselves are messed up, then Houston we have a problem. kids respond differently to different people, and they may respect one, but may not respect the other. If a kid respects you, then they will mind you, and they will accept your punishing them as being just (even if it is a good old spanking), but if they do not respect you nor do they trust you, then they will see your punishing them as abuse every time. This is why parents may need help themselves if they are having a problem with their kids, but then you have the problem of having so many idiots who are hired now in that field, and for whom don't even know what they are doing when they try and tell someone else what to do, that it is simply pathetic anymore.. ugggh.

 

[Jarlaxle]

You do what you need to do to bring about the results you want. If you want a little gang banger than don't dicipline them, and you may get your wish.

In Marine boot camp I saw brutal disipline to purge the weaknesses of many who came from a soft home - most did not make it.

If you don't disipline your child - you hate your child! Pain is a great incentive - if you use it early, you won't have to use it much!

I grew up with gang bangers. The worst of them got beat and abused constantly for any and every infraction. It made most of them mean and turned them into bullies. Show me a hardcore gangbanger and you will find someone with abuse in their background.

I have never seen a bully who wasn't hit by his parents.

 

[Jarlaxle]

My wife and I were foster parents during the days when spanking was allowed. I was president of my state association of FP when the ruling from the state came down outlawing spanking. A lot of FP just gave it up. We went through intensive training to teach FP different methods of discipline.

It seems to me that spanking had its place, but this is a new generation. Many kids would rather be spanked than go through the process of consequence. The fine line between spanking for discipline and parental abuse has taken the former off the board.

So the answer to your question is, Yes, it does work with some kids. But No, it is no longer an option in today's society.

speak for yourself, I spank my child when necessary.

I have no problem personally with that. But I strongly advise you to try hard to avoid those spankings in public places. There are folks out there that will not hesitate to call social services or other authorities if they see that happen. Take it from someone who has seen it happen many times. It is just the way it is.

I will not call anyone. I will draw and cock on you!

 

[Jarlaxle]

Asclepias, there are two things I want you to know before we discuss this further. 1), I respect you. 2), you're OK in my book. That said, we disagree a bit on some stuff.

Physical punishment should be legal, so long as it doesn't cross any boundaries. Using a paddle or a hand on the rump is very different then slapping or punching the face, or beating, kicking punching, etc. Evolution made it so that the butt has fat on it, to make sitting more comfortable, while also making disciplining your children easier for both of you.

I could cripple a child for life by paddling his/her butt.

Sometimes young kids are little demons. I was one of them. Reasoning didn't work. You couldn't reason with me, therefore, you couldn't stop me. Little ones with Attention-Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder can be so hyper and inattentive that only a few things will drive the message into the brain, and ensure it's remembered. And along the lines of being a hyper, evil, and intelligent brat, I soon learned that buying my love and obedience could be abused by me. Hitler did it, too. Sending me to my room did nothing, because video games. Having me stand in the corner did nothing but give me time to collect and organize my evil plans. Every little chink in my parents' armor was learned and abused, making it easy to come out ahead in bargaining.

Then the day came when it all stopped. I learned fear. After breaking something else Mom and Dad brought me into the living room, and I was notified that my butt was going to be spanked. This was new to me, because everything had been going so well. The very thought of this impending attack on my behind made me think that maybe, just maybe, my parents wouldn't lay down and take it any more. So with the bending of my body over Dad's knee, and the torture of the eternal two minutes, fear was not only learned... but remembered. Needless to say, so did respect. And with that my dreams of global domination came to an end.

If you my friend can get your children to obey you without having to spank their behinds, you are fortunate. That is rare, and was certainly not the case for my parents. Interestingly enough, we trained our puppy by scruffing her as punishment for biting people, running away, etc. She was a very loving, obedient, loyal sweetheart, and never got in trouble with the pound.

What you've mentioned about celebrating their victories and using their losses as learning opportunities is good, and I could see using that side-by-side with spanking out really bad behavior (maybe a caveat here would be to not over-celebrate, though?). If you were my parent, and I was very young, you would have to control me with spanking (give me very good reason to fear, respect, and obey you), or I'd likely burn your house down because no one's given me reason to not dare explore with matches.

Sometimes spanking is necessary and justified, and if you have reason to do so as a parent, you also have to keep it in moderation.

No. It is NEVER necessary, it is NEVER justified, and it is NEVER the right thing to do. Anyone doing it needs to be stopped by any means necessary up to and including lethal force.

Jarl, it would go far beyond the bounds of disciplinary spanking to cause that kind of damage. I feel that's less than honest of you to say that, because of all the times I've been spanked the worst was a slightly red bottom that stung for a few minutes.

Well, you certainly have the right to an opinion. It's just extreme and unreasonable, but so long as that sentiment doesn't influence our laws that's alright. I want to understand better where this sentiment is coming from. Were you ever spanked? What were your experiences?

My psychopathic father used me as a punching bag on an almost daily basis. He cost me my health and most of my sanity.

 

[Jarlaxle]

Most of the people I corresponded with in prison ministry were beaten severely as children. Some went on to boot camp, all went on to prison. The common denominator with all of them was their parents used violence as a teaching tool and it backfired. More discipline is not what brought them around. Love brought them around and love transformed them.

You could go to any prison and ask them if its the punishment there that will keep them from returning. They will tell you that isn't it. It's finding their self worth and purpose and feeling loved that will keep them from returning.

The topic is spanking, not beatings. Jesus Christ.

Distinction without a difference.