Downtown Seattle is Full of Trash and People Openly Using Drugs

[Fort Fun Indiana]

Paying for a given behavior entices more of said behavior.

And yet "harm reduction" and treatment and decriminalizaton have worked well in places. Like, Portugal.

It isn't all they are doing, though.

 

[martybegan]

And yet "harm reduction" and treatment and decriminalizaton have worked well in places. Like, Portugal.

It isn't all they are doing, though.

Just because it works in a monolithic homogenous culture like Portugal doesn't mean it will work here.

Trying the Soros method here seems to get more petty crime leading to more random serious crime. Does Portugal have our level of drug issues and mental health issues?

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

Just because it works in a monolithic homogenous culture like Portugal doesn't mean it will work here.

A bit overstated, but I get the point.

It may not work as well, but it could make a difference.

We aren't going to "solve" homelessness, mental illness, and addiction with these si.ple ideas.. we can only hope to mitigate and reduce the harm..

So, what should we do?

 

[martybegan]

A bit overstated, but I get the point.

It may not work as well, but it could make a difference.

You are going to "solve" homelessness, mental illness, and addiction with these si.ple ideas.. we can only hope to mitigate and reduce the harm..

So, what should we do?

What we are doing isn't working and is costing a fortune. What you do is go back to institutionalizing those who just won't accept being helped.

Plenty of nice open areas in Upstate NY for some nice camps.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

What we are doing isn't working and is costing a fortune.

If we stopped it, the problem could get even worse.

Maybe we aren't doing enough.

 

[martybegan]

If we stopped it, the problem could get even worse.

Maybe we aren't doing enough.

Again, the metric used by progressive city governments is money spent, not results obtained. They can't admit they get no results, so they keep asking for more money.

How large is NYC's homeless agency budget? How much of that goes to bureaucracy and how much to doing "something"?

I can't call it helping because it sure as hell isn't.

Who is more deserving, the homeless guy to sleep on the subway, or the commuter who just wants to get home and to work in one piece?

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

Again, the metric used by progressive city governments is money spent, not results obtained. They can't admit they get no results, so they keep asking for more money.

I talked about DOING more, not spending more. But yes, doing more will, indeed, cost more.

How large is NYC's homeless agency budget?

Apparently not large enough.

Who is more deserving, the homeless guy to sleep on the subway, or the commuter who just wants to get home and to work in one piece?

We don't have to choose.

And letting them rot certainly won't make the subway rider safer. The opposite, really.

 

[martybegan]

I talked about DOING more, not spending more. But yes, doing more will, indeed, cost more.

Apparently not large enough.

We don't have to choose.

And letting them rot certainly won't make the subway rider safer. The opposite, really.

Doing "more" won't cost more because actually doing something would allow you to get rid of 1/2 to 2/3 of the department.

Again with the "we just need to spend more" without actually having a plan to fix the problem, not just spend more money.

They won't be rotting up in Utica with 3 hots and a cot and doctors who make sure they take their meds and stay the fuck out of the cities.

They are already rotting, have you ever been next to a ripe homeless person on a subway?

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

Doing "more" won't cost more because actually doing something would allow you to get rid of 1/2 to 2/3 of the department.

Great!

I'm all ears.

We should do ____________

 

[martybegan]

Great!

I'm all ears.

We should do ____________

Already told you. Those that won't take help voluntarily get sent to facilities that keep them separate, medicated and out of the fucking way.

All after being evaluated and adjudicated of course.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

Those that won't take help voluntarily get sent to facilities that keep them separate, medicated and out of the fucking way.

How do you decide who that is?

What help? Housing, healthcare, food, and jobs?

 

[martybegan]

How do you decide who that is?

What help? Housing, healthcare, food, and jobs?

let the people we are paying figure that out. You want me to come up with the "perfect" solution yet accept the shitshow the so called "experts" have been cranking out for decades. They need to be removed from the public. The ones who have been on the street for decades ain't gonna get a job, and they ain't gonna get better barring a miracle.

In reality, the people left in the subways and the streets are far worse off right now, and because "hey we spent money on them" they can be written off in situ while the Dept of the homeless people pull in 6 figure salaries and get a pension.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

let the people we are paying figure that out. You want me to come up with the "perfect" solution yet accept the shitshow the so called "experts" have been cranking out for decades. They need to be removed from the public. The ones who have been on the street for decades ain't gonna get a job, and they ain't gonna get better barring a miracle.

In reality, the people left in the subways and the streets are far worse off right now, and because "hey we spent money on them" they can be written off in situ while the Dept of the homeless people pull in 6 figure salaries and get a pension.

Not at all. I don't think there is a perfect solution.

You are saying give them help.

So, housing, food, healthcare, and jobs? right? What else? Thoughts and prayers?

If they refuse, we give them housing, food, healthcare, and maybe jobs anyway, by incarcerating them?

Sounds to me like you plan to spend a LOT more money than we spend now.

Furthermore, "we are worse off" doesn't really say what you think it says. It just means the problems are bigger than they were. Do you think we are worse off, than if we spent NO money on it? If so, that seems to be self-evidently nonsensical.

 

[martybegan]

Not at all. I don't think there is a perfect solution.

You are saying give them help.

So, housing, food, healthcare, and jobs? right? What else? Thoughts and prayers?

If they refuse, we give them housing, food, healthcare, and maybe jobs anyway, by incarcerating them?

Sounds to me like you plan to spend a LOT more money than we spend now.

Furthermore, "we are worse off" doesn't really say what you think it says. It just means the problems are bigger than they were. Do you think we are worse off, than if we spent NO money on it? If so, that seems to be self-evidently nonsensical.

I would think it would be less, as you would need less people in the bureaucracy to run such a program. Plus the savings in policing, as you would need less overtime as many of these people are booked over and over and over and over.

If we spent no money, the problem would take care of itself in a few years. It wouldn't be pretty, but it would happen.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

would think it would be less, as you would need less people in the bureaucracy to run such a program.

Prisons? And healthcare, housing, food, and jobs for those who accept?

You must be kidding. Come on.

 

[martybegan]

Prisons? And healthcare, housing, food, and jobs for those who accept?

You must be kidding. Come on.

It wouldn't be prison level, trust me these guys/gals aren't escape artists. a nice bunch of small bungalows in the Finger lakes area, fencing, and some local people hired as security. Could be paid less than those in the city as well.

And it's not about "accepting", it's about forcing.

 

[DigitalDrifter]

let the people we are paying figure that out. You want me to come up with the "perfect" solution yet accept the shitshow the so called "experts" have been cranking out for decades. They need to be removed from the public. The ones who have been on the street for decades ain't gonna get a job, and they ain't gonna get better barring a miracle.

In reality, the people left in the subways and the streets are far worse off right now, and because "hey we spent money on them" they can be written off in situ while the Dept of the homeless people pull in 6 figure salaries and get a pension.

Don't even try to reason with them. If they had their way they would not only never try to sweep these people off the streets and hold them against their will, they would open the jails and let those already incarcerated go.

 

[Quasar44]

Portland ( my home city 11 years) is about 30 percent white drug addicts

 

[Quasar44]

Too many white folks are both mentally ill and a huge danger to society

 

[iceberg]

And I have volunteered and helped clothe, shelter, and feed the homeless, many if not most of which were mentally ill and or addicts.

In my experience, you would be wrong.

But I do not typically make these anecdotal points, because they are kind of worthless.

so then, like everything else you say.