Electric vehicle subsidies under threat. MAGA

[BULLDOG]

FDR's depression-era National Recovery Act granted lucrative federal contracts and some subsidies to that era's auto industry.

/——/ I’m talking about 1900, not 35 years later,

Government investing in private business for the public good is still government investing in private business for the public good, no matter when It is done.

I think I'd like to know why private investment hasn't kicked in to make it completely viable.

Could be because it would take so long before a good return on investment without government help. The country won't lose money on a more reliable and cheaper car, but most investors are wanting a quick return, and there just isn't enough investor money to give electric cars the boost they need. Same problem Henry Ford had before we subsidized roads and fuel to make his cars more viable.

You didn't answer the question.

I don't have a complete answer. I told you what I think it could be.

 

[ThisIsMe]

It might delay widespread use of electric cars for a little while, but Trump won't be president much longer, and we can return to sanity with the inauguration of our next president.

So, they won't be adopted unless the taxpayers subsidize them?

Gasoline powered cars wouldn't have been accepted without tax payers subsidizing the oil companies. There were no fueling stations and no infrastructure to keep them supplied, and very few suitable roads for cars. Without a concentrated effort by the government to support oil companies and car manufacturers with huge grants and tax incentives, we wouldn't have become the industrial giant we became in the early 20th century.

I can agree with you, to a certain extent. However, you have to look at the world we live in today compared to back then. The economy was much different. They weren't heavily in debt.

Also, oil and automotive was still a fledgling idea and it was a good innovation to get them up and going.

Today, however, we are 22 trillion in debt and people are way way waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay over taxed. When people think of a government subsidy, let's call it what it really is: wealth redistribution. It's not the government being all nice a buddy buddy with people, being nice and giving potential car buyers a nice little gift. It's the government taking out of one person's pocket and giving it to another person.

Electric cars may be a good idea, and likely a worthwhile endeavor, but at this point, there is no reason for government to be taking one person's money, and giving it to another. We have more than enough oil in this country to last us 100 or more years.

This may likely be a good development, but we can take our time, and let private investors fund it. I just dont see why people want to allow government to take money out of your pocket, and give it to a car company, so someone you dont even know can buy a car.

 

[BULLDOG]

It might delay widespread use of electric cars for a little while, but Trump won't be president much longer, and we can return to sanity with the inauguration of our next president. An inauguration that will no doubt be much bigger than Trump's. I wouldn't be surprised if that Nobel Prize is awarded on election night.

/——/ You do know that Chevy killed the Volt because of low demand and they had the subsidies? You do know that don’t you?

All major car manufacturers have killed lots of car models because of low demand. Chevy made improvements, and is offering the improved model for sale again

/——/ GM to kill Chevy Volt production in 2019 (Updated)

Big deal. Chevy, or someone else will take the technology and evaluate the problems and produce a better car. Edison tried lots of times before he got the light bulb right, but he knew the technology worked, and that he was close to the best answer. Hybrids are just one step toward a completely electric car. We both know it will happen, and we will reap the benefits of our investment.

 

[boedicca]

This is great news. The rest of us should not have to subsidize Teslas for Progs in Silicon Valley who hate us.

 

[BULLDOG]

It might delay widespread use of electric cars for a little while, but Trump won't be president much longer, and we can return to sanity with the inauguration of our next president.

So, they won't be adopted unless the taxpayers subsidize them?

Gasoline powered cars wouldn't have been accepted without tax payers subsidizing the oil companies. There were no fueling stations and no infrastructure to keep them supplied, and very few suitable roads for cars. Without a concentrated effort by the government to support oil companies and car manufacturers with huge grants and tax incentives, we wouldn't have become the industrial giant we became in the early 20th century.

I can agree with you, to a certain extent. However, you have to look at the world we live in today compared to back then. The economy was much different. They weren't heavily in debt.

Also, oil and automotive was still a fledgling idea and it was a good innovation to get them up and going.

Today, however, we are 22 trillion in debt and people are way way waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay over taxed. When people think of a government subsidy, let's call it what it really is: wealth redistribution. It's not the government being all nice a buddy buddy with people, being nice and giving potential car buyers a nice little gift. It's the government taking out of one person's pocket and giving it to another person.

Electric cars may be a good idea, and likely a worthwhile endeavor, but at this point, there is no reason for government to be taking one person's money, and giving it to another. We have more than enough oil in this country to last us 100 or more years.

This may likely be a good development, but we can take our time, and let private investors fund it. I just dont see why people want to allow government to take money out of your pocket, and give it to a car company, so someone you dont even know can buy a car.

When we finally quit giving billions to oil companies that don't need it just because that is what we have always done, you might have a point. We should take the oil subsidies that haven't been needed since cars were considered a viable thing and use it to invest in what we need for the future. Did I mention the billions we still give to oil companies because they once needed it?

 

[Lesh]

who hate us.

THAT is where your reluctance stems from. Grievance politics.

 

[boedicca]

who hate us.

THAT is where your reluctance stems from. Grievance politics.

You don't think very clearly, do you. None of us should be forced to subsidize lifestyle choices of other people. It just adds insult to the injury when they hate you in return...but that is the typical Prog M.O.

 

[Lesh]

Bottom line

Roads
Oil companies
Nuclear energy
hydroelectric
Electrical infrastructure
internet
cell phones

All of that technology was given a huge boost by government incentives and spending

 

[ThisIsMe]

It might delay widespread use of electric cars for a little while, but Trump won't be president much longer, and we can return to sanity with the inauguration of our next president.

So, they won't be adopted unless the taxpayers subsidize them?

Gasoline powered cars wouldn't have been accepted without tax payers subsidizing the oil companies. There were no fueling stations and no infrastructure to keep them supplied, and very few suitable roads for cars. Without a concentrated effort by the government to support oil companies and car manufacturers with huge grants and tax incentives, we wouldn't have become the industrial giant we became in the early 20th century.

I can agree with you, to a certain extent. However, you have to look at the world we live in today compared to back then. The economy was much different. They weren't heavily in debt.

Also, oil and automotive was still a fledgling idea and it was a good innovation to get them up and going.

Today, however, we are 22 trillion in debt and people are way way waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay over taxed. When people think of a government subsidy, let's call it what it really is: wealth redistribution. It's not the government being all nice a buddy buddy with people, being nice and giving potential car buyers a nice little gift. It's the government taking out of one person's pocket and giving it to another person.

Electric cars may be a good idea, and likely a worthwhile endeavor, but at this point, there is no reason for government to be taking one person's money, and giving it to another. We have more than enough oil in this country to last us 100 or more years.

This may likely be a good development, but we can take our time, and let private investors fund it. I just dont see why people want to allow government to take money out of your pocket, and give it to a car company, so someone you dont even know can buy a car.

When we finally quit giving billions to oil companies that don't need it just because that is what we have always done, you might have a point. We should take the oil subsidies that haven't been needed since cars were considered a viable thing and use it to invest in what we need for the future. Did I mention the billions we still give to oil companies because they once needed it?

I'm with you here. If we can stop subsidies to all companies, not just oil, and it wont crash our economy, I say yeah, let's end them.

We pay enough for the goods and services they sell, I see no reason why our government should also be taking our tax dollars and give it to them. As long as they can stay afloat on their own and it wouldn't cause an economic meltdown, then, sure, pull all subsidies.

Likely, the cost of those products will rise quite a bit, though.

 

[BULLDOG]

It might delay widespread use of electric cars for a little while, but Trump won't be president much longer, and we can return to sanity with the inauguration of our next president.

So, they won't be adopted unless the taxpayers subsidize them?

Gasoline powered cars wouldn't have been accepted without tax payers subsidizing the oil companies. There were no fueling stations and no infrastructure to keep them supplied, and very few suitable roads for cars. Without a concentrated effort by the government to support oil companies and car manufacturers with huge grants and tax incentives, we wouldn't have become the industrial giant we became in the early 20th century.

I can agree with you, to a certain extent. However, you have to look at the world we live in today compared to back then. The economy was much different. They weren't heavily in debt.

Also, oil and automotive was still a fledgling idea and it was a good innovation to get them up and going.

Today, however, we are 22 trillion in debt and people are way way waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay over taxed. When people think of a government subsidy, let's call it what it really is: wealth redistribution. It's not the government being all nice a buddy buddy with people, being nice and giving potential car buyers a nice little gift. It's the government taking out of one person's pocket and giving it to another person.

Electric cars may be a good idea, and likely a worthwhile endeavor, but at this point, there is no reason for government to be taking one person's money, and giving it to another. We have more than enough oil in this country to last us 100 or more years.

This may likely be a good development, but we can take our time, and let private investors fund it. I just dont see why people want to allow government to take money out of your pocket, and give it to a car company, so someone you dont even know can buy a car.

When we finally quit giving billions to oil companies that don't need it just because that is what we have always done, you might have a point. We should take the oil subsidies that haven't been needed since cars were considered a viable thing and use it to invest in what we need for the future. Did I mention the billions we still give to oil companies because they once needed it?

I'm with you here. If we can stop subsidies to all companies, not just oil, and it wont crash our economy, I say yeah, let's end them.

We pay enough for the goods and services they sell, I see no reason why our government should also be taking our tax dollars and give it to them. As long as they can stay afloat on their own and it wouldn't cause an economic meltdown, then, sure, pull all subsidies.

Likely, the cost of those products will rise quite a bit, though.

Prices will rise no higher than the market will bear. If you consider the hidden cost of all those freebies that we already pay for, the price is already lots higher than we see at the pump..

 

[LeftofLeft]

I would rather see working Americans with long commutes to work get the maximum subsidy regardless of how they get there. That is a higher priority.

So you are a proponent of high speed rail. Great

I am a proponent of “maximum subsidy to a working taxpayer with long commutes to his/her job. That could mean high speed rail, walking, or driving a gas guzzling truck.

I am a huge proponent of the working taxpayer moving close enough to his or her place of employment so as not to need a thing getting to work, or they can just pay for their long commute out of their own pockets.

You ought to run on that. The working and middle class would love it.

 

[Rigby5]

Electric vehicles are NOT a good idea at all.
First of all, since they carry around an additional ton of batteries, they use far MORE energy than a normal vehicle.
Second is that since coal is the main source of electrical power, they pollute far more than current gasoline or diesel cars.

They claim a 300 mile range, but in cold weather, at night, or when you need wipers, it can be as low as 50 miles.
And a full charge is 3 hours.
The super charge can be as short as a half hour, but risks cutting your $10k battery pack life time in half.

Electricity is not at all efficient.
While it sounds good to have 50% efficiency at the electric motors, there is about a 50% loss extracting from batteries, 50% loss charging the batteries, 50% loss in transmission, and 50% loss in generating the electricity.
Leaving a cumulative total of only 3.125% efficiency.

And you can NOT power electric vehicles by renewables.
An electric vehicle uses about 10 times the electrical power of an entire house.
And you can't change your car from photovoltaics because there is no sun when the car is home at night.

I have no problem with government subsidies for things that are worth it in the long run or just need a chance to reach economy of scale, but electric vehicles do nothing good.

 

[edthecynic]

MAGA

 

[Rigby5]

It might delay widespread use of electric cars for a little while, but Trump won't be president much longer, and we can return to sanity with the inauguration of our next president. An inauguration that will no doubt be much bigger than Trump's. I wouldn't be surprised if that Nobel Prize is awarded on election night.

/——/ You do know that Chevy killed the Volt because of low demand and they had the subsidies? You do know that don’t you?

All major car manufacturers have killed lots of car models because of low demand. Chevy made improvements, and is offering the improved model for sale again

/——/ GM to kill Chevy Volt production in 2019 (Updated)

Big deal. Chevy, or someone else will take the technology and evaluate the problems and produce a better car. Edison tried lots of times before he got the light bulb right, but he knew the technology worked, and that he was close to the best answer. Hybrids are just one step toward a completely electric car. We both know it will happen, and we will reap the benefits of our investment.

Not going to happen.
Electric vehicles never made any sense.
They weight and cost twice what current gasoline or diesel cars weigh and cost.
And electricity is just as polluting because so much energy is wasted generating, transmitting, storing, retrieving, and converting the electricity back to kinetic energy.

 

[edthecynic]

Second is that since coal is the main source of electrical power, they pollute far more than current gasoline or diesel cars.

Just another Russia Limbaugh LIE parroted by mindless skulls of mush!

 

[ColonelAngus]

Government subsidies should not keep Tesla afloat. Tesla should keep Tesla afloat.

Most idiot liberals do not understand that electric cars still pollute. Most of the electricity used to operate them is fossil fuel.

Derp. Not to mention production and disposal.

 

[Rigby5]

It might delay widespread use of electric cars for a little while, but Trump won't be president much longer, and we can return to sanity with the inauguration of our next president.

So, they won't be adopted unless the taxpayers subsidize them?

Gasoline powered cars wouldn't have been accepted without tax payers subsidizing the oil companies. There were no fueling stations and no infrastructure to keep them supplied, and very few suitable roads for cars. Without a concentrated effort by the government to support oil companies and car manufacturers with huge grants and tax incentives, we wouldn't have become the industrial giant we became in the early 20th century.

I can agree with you, to a certain extent. However, you have to look at the world we live in today compared to back then. The economy was much different. They weren't heavily in debt.

Also, oil and automotive was still a fledgling idea and it was a good innovation to get them up and going.

Today, however, we are 22 trillion in debt and people are way way waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay over taxed. When people think of a government subsidy, let's call it what it really is: wealth redistribution. It's not the government being all nice a buddy buddy with people, being nice and giving potential car buyers a nice little gift. It's the government taking out of one person's pocket and giving it to another person.

Electric cars may be a good idea, and likely a worthwhile endeavor, but at this point, there is no reason for government to be taking one person's money, and giving it to another. We have more than enough oil in this country to last us 100 or more years.

This may likely be a good development, but we can take our time, and let private investors fund it. I just dont see why people want to allow government to take money out of your pocket, and give it to a car company, so someone you dont even know can buy a car.

When we finally quit giving billions to oil companies that don't need it just because that is what we have always done, you might have a point. We should take the oil subsidies that haven't been needed since cars were considered a viable thing and use it to invest in what we need for the future. Did I mention the billions we still give to oil companies because they once needed it?

I'm with you here. If we can stop subsidies to all companies, not just oil, and it wont crash our economy, I say yeah, let's end them.

We pay enough for the goods and services they sell, I see no reason why our government should also be taking our tax dollars and give it to them. As long as they can stay afloat on their own and it wouldn't cause an economic meltdown, then, sure, pull all subsidies.

Likely, the cost of those products will rise quite a bit, though.

The only subsidy the oil companies get is that we sell them leases on federal land with oil under it, at pennies on the dollar.
Other than that, we do not subsidize oil companies at all, but instead tax the hell out of gasoline, at a rate of something like 30% at the pump.

It is electricity that we subsidize, and if we start trying to make electric cars for everyone, we will have to start producing about 10 times more electricity than we make now.

 

[Rigby5]

Second is that since coal is the main source of electrical power, they pollute far more than current gasoline or diesel cars.

Just another Russia Limbaugh LIE parroted by mindless skulls of mush!

That is irrelevant.
That pie chart is not the means of electrical production, but of all energy consumption now.
If you go with electric cars, then the red petroleum slice goes away, but it is replaced with the dark blue coal slice increasing by almost twice the size of the red slice.
Producing electric power to replace gasoline and diesel will require huge energy increase due to the ton of batteries that electric vehicles have to carry up and down hills, as well as the extra loses due to transmission, storage and retrieval, as well as conversion back to kinetic energy.

Wind and solar are not viable because they don't work all the time so you can't count on them.
Hydro is going away, as dams are being removed to prevent fish die offs.
Bio fuels are great by they compete with food for space, so make food prices higher.

Fusion or fission make a whole lot more sense than anything else, but we are not doing it now.

 

[fncceo]

Tesla should keep Tesla afloat.

If Teslas could float, they could sell them as electric boats.

 

[ColonelAngus]

It might delay widespread use of electric cars for a little while, but Trump won't be president much longer, and we can return to sanity with the inauguration of our next president.

So, they won't be adopted unless the taxpayers subsidize them?

Gasoline powered cars wouldn't have been accepted without tax payers subsidizing the oil companies. There were no fueling stations and no infrastructure to keep them supplied, and very few suitable roads for cars. Without a concentrated effort by the government to support oil companies and car manufacturers with huge grants and tax incentives, we wouldn't have become the industrial giant we became in the early 20th century.

I can agree with you, to a certain extent. However, you have to look at the world we live in today compared to back then. The economy was much different. They weren't heavily in debt.

Also, oil and automotive was still a fledgling idea and it was a good innovation to get them up and going.

Today, however, we are 22 trillion in debt and people are way way waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay over taxed. When people think of a government subsidy, let's call it what it really is: wealth redistribution. It's not the government being all nice a buddy buddy with people, being nice and giving potential car buyers a nice little gift. It's the government taking out of one person's pocket and giving it to another person.

Electric cars may be a good idea, and likely a worthwhile endeavor, but at this point, there is no reason for government to be taking one person's money, and giving it to another. We have more than enough oil in this country to last us 100 or more years.

This may likely be a good development, but we can take our time, and let private investors fund it. I just dont see why people want to allow government to take money out of your pocket, and give it to a car company, so someone you dont even know can buy a car.

So many naive people just don’t get this.

Cash for Clunkers, for example....was complete horseshit and a massive economic failure.