Evangelicals and Trump

[NotfooledbyW]

#881 reply to #878

Right, but if you read my post, I had started a hypothetical.

You did not start a hypothetical. You copied what I wrote and followed up with a question.

you copied my point verbatim:


“Let us pretend for a moment that America was in fact populated by perhaps a majority of White Christian Protestants in 1787 when the secular and religiously pluralistic CONSTITUTION was being written.”

And then you attacked it. You did not re-phrase it as a hypothetical,

You immediately wrote:

“How does that marginalize anyone? It doesn't.”

#881 Side Questions for you. Did that largely white Protestant Christian majority marginalize Catholics, Jews snd Virginia’s Baptists and other non/Christians prior to the religiously pluralistic and secular Constitution being ratified and the concept of Jefferson and Madison‘s religious freedom was established?

#881 Why did 16 Centuries of Christianity in Europe never produce a concept of governmental religious freedom Christianity is to be credited for making it a prominent part of the US Constitution?

 

[Andylusion]

#880 reply to #867

From the blue, all the way to the end of the green, are the people who identify as Christian, in one form or another.

That's 2/3rds of the population.

What part is the lie again?

Your second error is that your post #867 is in response to this:

“White evangelical Christian Nationalists tell me that America was founded as a Christian Nation and Correll tells me that and that America still is a Christian Nation. It’s a lie.

You call me a liar because you cited the data which gives all Christians at the present moment in America a 2/3 majority which I do not dispute. That’s because I’m defining for you the lie that Correll is pushing which is also being pushed by self identified white evangelical Christians who have a Christian nationalist agenda.

#880 That’s why the fact that these Christian Nationalists are white Is a major and necessary part of the discussion. Black and other evangelical Christian worshippers are not promoting a Christian Nation identity for America.

Do you see that error on your part ?

Ok I see what you are getting at.

I would deny that America was not founded as a Christian country. Even before 1776, when the Mayflower landed in the US, the declaration made by the Pilgrams on the Mayflower said the following.

"Having undertaken, for the glory of God, and advancement of the Christian faith, and honor of our King and Country, a voyage to plant the first colony in the northern parts of Virginia, do by these presents solemnly and mutually, in the presence of God, and one of another, covenant and combine our selves together into a civil body politic, for our better ordering and preservation and furtherance of the ends aforesaid; and by virtue hereof to enact, constitute, and frame such just and equal laws, ordinances, acts, constitutions and offices, from time to time, as shall be thought most meet and convenient for the general good of the Colony, unto which we promise all due submission and obedience."

File:Mayflowercomp.jpg - Wikimedia Commons

commons.wikimedia.org

This is well documented.

In 1668, the establishment of Thanksgiving was given by this decree:

"The Court taking notice of the goodness of God to us in the continuance of our civil and religious liberties, the general health that wee have enjoyed, and that it hath pleased God in some comfortable measure to bless us in the fruits of the earth"

And we have been celebrating Thanksgiving ever since.

The Avalon Project : Constitution of South Carolina - March 19, 1778

avalon.law.yale.edu

The state charter of S.C. says the following.

1st. That there is one eternal God, and a future state of rewards and punishments.​

2d. That God is publicly to be worshipped.​

3d. That the Christian religion is the true religion​

4th. That the holy scriptures of the Old and New Testaments are of divine inspiration, and are the rule of faith and practice.​

5th. That it is lawful and the duty of every man being thereunto called by those that govern, to bear witness to the truth.​

The Christian fundamental basis for our country is beyond question.

That’s why the fact that these Christian Nationalists are white Is a major and necessary part of the discussion. Black and other evangelical Christian worshipers are not promoting a Christian Nation identity for America.

But you said they are marginalized. How are they marginalized?

I can't find a single example where Christians are marginalizing Blacks today.

Whites were the defining factor that created this country. If you want to claim any of the founding fathers were black, feel free to make that claim.

But regardless, that doesn't mean anything to today. What difference does it make, what happened over 200 years ago?

Do you think I am able to make more money than anyone else, because the founders of the country were white?

Do you think someone else can't be exceptionally wealthy, or get into the highest levels of government, because they were not white, and the founders were?

I'd be hard pressed to find evidence of that. And if not, then I say again, who cares?

 

[Andylusion]

#881 reply to #878

Right, but if you read my post, I had started a hypothetical.

You did not start a hypothetical. You copied what I wrote and followed up with a question.

you copied my point verbatim:


“Let us pretend for a moment that America was in fact populated by perhaps a majority of White Christian Protestants in 1787 when the secular and religiously pluralistic CONSTITUTION was being written.”

And then you attacked it. You did not re-phrase it as a hypothetical,

You immediately wrote:

“How does that marginalize anyone? It doesn't.”

#881 Side Questions for you. Did that largely white Protestant Christian majority marginalize Catholics, Jews snd Virginia’s Baptists and other non/Christians prior to the religiously pluralistic and secular Constitution being ratified and the concept of Jefferson and Madison‘s religious freedom was established?

#881 Why did 16 Centuries of Christianity in Europe never produce a concept of governmental religious freedom Christianity is to be credited for making it a prominent part of the US Constitution?

Right. But we're living in 2020. Not the 1700s. We live *NOW*, not back then.

Stephen Curry makes $40 Million a year, to shoot a ball into a hoop for the NBA. They don't seem like they are marginalized.

Stating facts about our history, is not marginalizing. The dentist I go to is white. Saying my dentist that I go to is white, does not marginalize everyone who is not white.

As for why Europe never produced the Religious freedom that was established in the US, well obviously it was because people came here to establish freedom from the state controlled religion.

Does the fact that Europe did not come up with religious freedom first, mean that the US views of religious freedom can't be from religious ideology? No, it does not mean that.

It is possible to have two groups who believe in Christianity, and have one group that results in wildly different outcomes, and still be ideological Christians.

In fact all ideologies, can come to different conclusions with different people groups. It's actually quite normal.

 

[NotfooledbyW]

#882 reply to #

Regardless, we have numerous statements by the founding fathers, that indicate a belief in G-d, and Jesus Christ.

Only a small few, were actually full Deists.

Your link starts with a reference to John Adams.

He was a Unitarian. He did not believe in the Holy Trinity or the Divinity of Jesus

Bad choice. quotes from our founding father John Adams:

"I wish You ould live a Year in Boston, hear their Divines, read their publications, especially the Repository. You would see how spiritual Tyranny and ecclesiastical Domination are beginning in our Country: at least struggling for birth.

"We have now, it seems a National Bible Society, to propagate King James's Bible, through all Nations. Would it not be better, to apply these pious Subscriptions, to purify Christendom from the Corruptions of Christianity; than to propagate those Corruptions in europe Asia, Africa and America!" -- letter to Thomas Jefferson, 4 November 1816

"Oh! Lord! Do you think a Protestant Popedom is annihilated in America? Do you recollect, or have you ever attended to the ecclesiastical Strifes in Maryland Pennsilvania, New York, and every part of New England? What a mercy it is that these People cannot whip and crop, and pillory and roast, as yet in the U.S.! If they could they would.

“Just because John Adams and George Washington quoted from the Bible or made reference to God does not mean that they were trying to construct a Christian nation.“ John Fea.

A few prominent Founding Fathers were anti-clerical Christians such as Thomas Jefferson,[32][33][34] who constructed the Jefferson Bible, and Benjamin Franklin.[35]

.....and this from Ding from the same post:


Historian Gregg L. Frazer argues that the leading Founders (John Adams, Jefferson, Franklin, Wilson, Morris, Madison, Hamilton, and Washington) were neither Christians nor Deists, but rather supporters of a hybrid "theistic rationalism".[36]

 

[NotfooledbyW]

I would deny that America was not founded as a Christian country. Even before 1776, when the Mayflower landed in the US, the declaration made by the Pilgrams on the Mayflower said the following.

The Pilgrims/Puritans did not participate in the founding of America.

I started this thread to counter the unnecessary direction from white Protestant evangelical Christian nationalists to identify America as founded as a Christian Nation

Anyone convinced or of the opinion that Protestant Christianity was ”tied” to the US Constitution when it was written are certainly welcome to bring history, facts, and the best knowledge about the hearts, minds and souls of our founding fathers and the religion, philosophy and science they absorbed during their lifetimes to make that case.

I will make the case for separate and “untied” because I am certain that all must agree that Protestant Christianity was deeply involved in just about every aspect of the British America’s colonial culture ever since the day a group of Protestant Christians, subjects of the King of England, came to the New World aboard the Arbella in 1630 hearing these words from Governor John Winthrop as they sailed across the Atlantic:

#1. We will start with the Puritans

The first group of “Mayflower” Christians to set foot on what was to become Massachusetts’s soil were separatists meaning they left the Church of England behind. Those separatists were eventually absorbed into the following groups of non-separatist Puritans who under Congregationalist Churches maintained a loyal relationship with the Church of England until the revolt against King Charles in 1776 was declared.

In no way should the early separatist Puritans be confused with the Revolutionary War Separatists. Many of the 1776 separatists were not Christian in a Puritan/Calvinistic sense at all. They were more philosophically aligned with the modern liberal mindset of the times when the Declaration of Independence was signed.

Perhaps if you went there and read some of my stuff it will be easier to explain what my point and concerns are as a non-Christian who respects Modern Christianity much more than many of our founding fathers did

 

[Andylusion]

#882 reply to #

Regardless, we have numerous statements by the founding fathers, that indicate a belief in G-d, and Jesus Christ.

Only a small few, were actually full Deists.

Your link starts with a reference to John Adams.

He was a Unitarian. He did not believe in the Holy Trinity or the Divinity of Jesus

Bad choice. quotes from our founding father John Adams:

"I wish You ould live a Year in Boston, hear their Divines, read their publications, especially the Repository. You would see how spiritual Tyranny and ecclesiastical Domination are beginning in our Country: at least struggling for birth.

"We have now, it seems a National Bible Society, to propagate King James's Bible, through all Nations. Would it not be better, to apply these pious Subscriptions, to purify Christendom from the Corruptions of Christianity; than to propagate those Corruptions in europe Asia, Africa and America!" -- letter to Thomas Jefferson, 4 November 1816

"Oh! Lord! Do you think a Protestant Popedom is annihilated in America? Do you recollect, or have you ever attended to the ecclesiastical Strifes in Maryland Pennsilvania, New York, and every part of New England? What a mercy it is that these People cannot whip and crop, and pillory and roast, as yet in the U.S.! If they could they would.

“Just because John Adams and George Washington quoted from the Bible or made reference to God does not mean that they were trying to construct a Christian nation.“ John Fea.

A few prominent Founding Fathers were anti-clerical Christians such as Thomas Jefferson,[32][33][34] who constructed the Jefferson Bible, and Benjamin Franklin.[35]

.....and this from Ding from the same post:


Historian Gregg L. Frazer argues that the leading Founders (John Adams, Jefferson, Franklin, Wilson, Morris, Madison, Hamilton, and Washington) were neither Christians nor Deists, but rather supporters of a hybrid "theistic rationalism".[36]

So let's start with John Adams, since you started there.

Founders Online: John Adams to Thomas Jefferson, 28 June 1813

John Adams to Thomas Jefferson, 28 June 1813

founders.archives.gov

The general Principles, on which the Fathers Achieved Independence, were the only Principles in which, that beautiful Assembly of young Gentlemen could Unite, and these Principles only could be intended by them in their Address, or by me in my Answer. And what were these general Principles? I answer, the general Principles of Christianity, in which all those Sects were United: And the general Principles of English and American Liberty, in which all those young Men United, and which had United all Parties in America, in Majorities Sufficient to assert and maintain her Independence.​

​

Now I will avow, that I then believed, and now believe, that those general Principles of Christianity, are as eternal and immutable, as the Existence and Attributes of God: and that those Principles of Liberty, are as unalterable as human Nature and our terrestrial, mundane System.​

So what this means is that, even if I do not know specifically what John Adams believed in his heart, it matters not to his founding of the country.

Because in his own words, the founding principals were Christianity, and he believed in those Christian Principles.

Now personally have read several books about John Adams, and I am convinced by those histories, that John Adams, was in fact a Christian, not a Deist.

However, even if he was, it doesn't matter because when John Adams built the foundations for this country, it was built with the clear cut principals of Christianity.

And that.... isn't debatable.

Would you like to continue?

 

[Andylusion]

I would deny that America was not founded as a Christian country. Even before 1776, when the Mayflower landed in the US, the declaration made by the Pilgrams on the Mayflower said the following.

The Pilgrims/Puritans did nit participate in the founding of America.

I started this thread to counter the unnecessary direction to identify America as founded as a Christian Nation

#1. We will start with the Puritans

The first group of “Mayflower” Christians to set foot on what was to become Massachusetts’s soil were separatists meaning they left the Church of England behind. Those separatists were eventually absorbed into the following groups of non-separatist Puritans who under Congregationalist Churches maintained a loyal relationship with the Church of England until the revolt against King Charles in 1776 was declared.

In no way should the early separatist Puritans be confused with the Revolutionary War Separatists. Many of the 1776 separatists were not Christian in a Puritan/Calvinistic sense at all. They were more philosophically aligned with the modern liberal mindset of the times when the Declaration of Independence was signed.

Perhaps if you went there and read some of my stuff it will be easier to explain what my point and concerns are as a non-Christian who respects Modern Christianity much more than many of our founding fathers did

Sure they did. It was basis for creation of colonies, to fueled the creation of the country as a whole. Honestly, it's ridiculous to think otherwise.

 

[NotfooledbyW]

Sure they did. It was basis for creation of colonies, to fueled the creation of the country as a whole. Honestly, it's ridiculous to think otherwise.

they founded some colonies and were theocratic and religiously intolerant to others. but they did not found the United States of America and provide input into the framing of a Constitution that did include religious liberty and freedom of conscience.

 

[NotfooledbyW]

However, even if he was, it doesn't matter because when John Adams built the foundations for this country, it was built with the clear cut principals of Christianity.

you don’t want to discuss the Constitution I see.

So non-Christians who built the foundation of America are to be labeled Christians for what reason is that?

 

[NotfooledbyW]

However, even if he was, it doesn't matter because when John Adams built the foundations for this country, it was built with the clear cut principals of Christianity.

you don’t want to discuss the Constitution I see. Is the Christian precept of original sin in the Constitution?

So non-Christians who built the foundation of America are to be labeled Christians for what reason is that?

 

[NotfooledbyW]

Post#871 AndyAndy for evidence

Third, I would be very interested in what evidence you have that this country was not created by white Christians.

Do you have any evidence to support that at all?

Post#875 I ask for clarification

Is it your understanding or argument that America’s founding fathers were all entirely white male Protestant Christian or something other than that?

Post#879 AndyAndy already betrays reason

I don't even think it matters.

Why have a discussion with someone about the 21st Century Christian urge to identify the 18th Century United States of America as to have been founded as a Christian Nation when said person, perhaps a Christian, says he doesn’t think evidence that a large number of our founding fathers openly rejected the sin and salvation Christian religious faith that has become the belief system of all the 21st Century Christians?

So Andylusion are you interested in the evidence you requested, because the evidence does not end with our second President John Adams who was a Unitarian who openly in written letters recorded his strong rejection of sin and salvation Christianity..

Knowing his rejection of sin and salvation Christianity and his religious self-identity as a Unitarian, why do you have an urge to identify America as founded as a sin and salvation Christian Nation.

Should not the urge be at least in part to identify America as founded as a Unitarian Nation since the evidence has shown that to be more accurate?

By the way my wife and were married in a Unitarian Church 20 years ago next month.

My comfort with and respect for the Unitarian Church and it’s influence on the Revolution and Constitution does not give me an urge to identify America as founded as a Unitarian Nation. That would be wrong because America was not founded with a religious preference to sin and salvation Christianity or any other religion or no religious belief at all.

 

[BreezeWood]

That's 2/3rds of the population.

What part is the lie again?

{1} America was allegedly populated by perhaps a majority of White Christian Protestants in 1787 when the secular and religiously pluralistic CONSTITUTION was being written.

{2} Only self identified white Christian Evangelical Protestants today are telling the lie that America was founded as a Christian Nation because the population back then was supposedly mostly white and Protestant which is not a verifiable or settled claim.

{3} The 2/3 Christian majority you cite includes non-right wing Catholics, Black and other minority Christians, and white Christians that vote Democrat and liberal. very few of which are telling me that America must be identified as a Christian Nation.

A true statement would be that America was founded as a pluralistic nation and is a nation for all religions including a diverse Christian majority.

what’s wrong with the truth?

why shorten to a generalization that marginalizes all non-Christian beliefs to satisfy 17% who self identify as evangelical Christian and who are white?

I know a ton of Catholics that are very conservative.

Second, I know lots of minorities that are very Christian, and very conservative.

Quite frankly, someone who is a Christian, matters more to me, than if they are white, or non-white. Honestly, I can't think of a single time ever, when I cared if they were white or non-white.

Third, I would be very interested in what evidence you have that this country was not created by white Christians.

Do you have any evidence to support that at all?

why shorten to a generalization that marginalizes all non-Christian beliefs to satisfy 17% who self identify as evangelical Christian and who are white?

Well we already just pointed out, from your own link that you provided, that Christians make up more than 2/3rds of the population.

That makes you right now, a liar.

Second, I don't buy the concept that speaking the truth, means that other people are marginalized.

For example, let's assume for the moment that point (1) that you posted is true.

Let us pretend for a moment that America was in fact populated by perhaps a majority of White Christian Protestants in 1787 when the secular and religiously pluralistic CONSTITUTION was being written.

How does that marginalize anyone? It doesn't. You don't see Jews, or Asians, living a marginalized life, because the constitution was written largely by White Christiana.

.

because the constitution was written largely by White Christiana.

.
no not who wrote it.

to bad for you who wrote the document left you on the outside -
.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion ...

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lie all you want your book is dirt in this country.

You post makes no logical sense. Did you even read what I wrote?

That makes you right now, a liar.

You post makes no logical sense. Did you even read what I wrote?

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sort of - till the evangelicals became the minority of - good (white) christians ...
.
View attachment 401340
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best neighbors anyone could hope for -

Still doesn't make logical sense. You can't contradict anything I said, and now you are bringing up things and topics I never mentioned, and have nothing to do with the topic.

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no not who wrote it.

to bad for you who wrote the document left you on the outside -

Still doesn't make logical sense. You can't contradict anything I said, and now you are bringing up things and topics I never mentioned, and have nothing to do with the topic.

.
who throughout history christians really represent had everything to do with their exclusion from the new u s gov't.

the u s constitution is a secular document - you refer to founding (christian) fathers as if they wrote the document which when read is contradicted by the document itself that has no reference to the 4th century christian bible those founders at that time had a high disregard for in determination of why they were forming a new gov't in the first place.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion ...

their intent was a separation between church and state and the acknowledgment of multiple theistic considerations for whichever religions were available ...

you are the liar to insinuate this country was founded as a christian state.

 

[NotfooledbyW]

#reply to #

"Having undertaken, for the glory of God, and advancement of the Christian faith, and honor of our King and Country,

I’d like to follow up on this point which confirms your belief that the Christian religious sect on board the Mayflower is what contributed to the framing of the US constitution.

“.........the advancement of the Christian faith, and honor of our King and country,“​

Christianity, KING (monarchy) and country (Great Britain)??????????

Did you not hear of the American Revolution and European Enlightenment in an Age if Reason that spread in 1776 America to throw off the yoke of establishment Christianity, KING (monarchy) and country (Great Britain).

What am I missing?

 

[NotfooledbyW]

Adams Principles of Christianity includes Deists and Atheists, and Protestants 'qui ne croyent rien.'" (That means "Protestants who believe in nothing.")

Is he founding a 21st Century sin and salvation Christian Nation in hIs era?

Not at all.

Because in his own words, the founding principals were Christianity, and he believed in those Christian Principles.

Have you bothered to look up what exactly President Adams meant when he used the phrase “Founding Principles of Christianity”

Adams and the General Principles of Christianity

Did John Adams write: The general principles upon which the Fathers achieved independence were the general principals of Christianity… I will avow that I believed and now believe that those general…

www.google.com

He did not mean Sin and Salvation Principles of Christianity. He believed In much higher principles that were universal and that included Unitarians Deists and Atheists in John Adams own words.

There were among them Roman Catholics, English Episcopalians, Scotch and American Presbyterians, Methodists, Moravians, Anabaptists, German Lutherans, German Calvinists, Universalists, Arians, Priestleyans, Socinians, Independents, Congregationalists, Horse Protestants, and House Protestants, Deists and Atheists, and Protestants “qui ne croyent rien.”

or try this brief summary:

Monday, October 8, 2012 Throckmorton on Barton's Use of Adams' "General Principles of Christianity" Quote

See Warren Throckmorton's remarks here. This was in a letter from John Adams to Thomas Jefferson in 1813. This was John Adams at his most heterodox. Out of context, the quotation sounds like something that supports the Christian Nation thesis. Understood in context, however, Adams doesn't refer to what Barton et al. understand as "biblical Christianity," but rather some other very heterodox theological system, what Gregg Frazer has termed "theistic rationalism." It's a system that unites the "orthodox" with Universalists, Unitarians (Arians, Socinians, Priestleyans) and even "Deists and Atheists, and Protestants 'qui ne croyent rien.'" (That means "Protestants who believe in nothing.")

Throckmorton on Barton's Use of Adams' "General Principles of Christianity" Quote

See Warren Throckmorton's remarks here . This was in a letter from John Adams to Thomas Jefferson in 1813. This was John Adams at his most...

americancreation.blogspot.com

 

[NotfooledbyW]

#895 reply to #18

That is marxism pretending to be faith,

How do you determine fake Christianity? I thought you say anyone who self identifies as a Christian counts as a Christian in your imaginary Christian Nation.

 

[Correll]

It is also RELEVANT to point out that the DOMINANT CULTURE you and @ding are defending is also a white and male Dominant culture.

Why is that relevant? Is it less valid of a culture because it is white and "male"?

 

[Correll]

I would be worried if Trumpism and his brand of hate and ignorance had managed to infect more than a third of Americans.

Nothing about what Trump has said, or this thread, or my positions justifies your hysteria.


What needs your hysteria, is your bullying. You have to gin up an excuse so that you can pretend your attacks are justified instead of the unprovoked bullying that they actually are.


YOU are the bad guy, you and yours.

 

[Correll]

The crux of your argument is a game of semantics, where you try to gin up a controversy over definitions of the words,

Definition of what words?


Found 3 : to establish (something) often with provision for future maintenance found an institution.

Founder -One who establishes something or formulates the basis for something.


Christian - This is one who defines being a Christian -
Our president and my church: An evangelical Christian on the president’s damage to his faith community
By JOHN FEA
NEW YORK DAILY NEWS |
OCT 12, 2020

This is an election between one man who believes that the president should be a steward of democracy and another man who is a racist, nativist and narcissist willing to undermine democracy with almost every word he speaks.​

And most white evangelicals, whether they love Trump or held their noses and voted for him, are complicit. I know that statement will anger a lot of the Christians in my evangelical tribe, but I am also angry. How long will evangelicals continue to support — either directly or indirectly through their silence — this immoral president? In his Second Inaugural Address, Abraham Lincoln preached national unity. He called us to “bind up the nation’s wounds” and “achieve and cherish a just and lasting peace.” But let us remember that Lincoln delivered his address after the Union victory over the slave-holding Confederacy was all but secured.​

The cancer at the heart of the republic and evangelical Christianity must be cut out. When Trump is gone, I hope and pray I will be ready to participate in the healing process.​

Fea is Distinguished Professor of American History at Messiah University in Mechanicsburg, Pa. Our president and my church: An evangelical Christian on the president’s damage to his faith community​

So what semantics issue is going on around here?

I stopped reading when the asshole played the Wace Card. FUCK HIM.

You got a point to make, make it seriously and leave the asshole games out of it.

 

[Correll]

My position is not built on majority agreement with my view.

I know. It’s based on the majority of the population being Christian. An argument That is made preposterous based on the fact that the majority size of the population has nothing to do as to why and how the Constitution was written

It is not preposterous to say that a group is defined by the vast majority of it's members.


You are the one that keeps bringing up all kinds of shit to distract from the fact that my position makes complete sense.

 

[Correll]

you seemed to be conflating white Christians and White Nationalists two very different groups, with very little overlap,

I have directed your attention to white Christian nationalists who promote as historical fact, not just opinion, that America was founded as a Christian Nation. I have not injected white nationalists and their racism into this discussion. That’s all you.

I don’t associate today’s white Christian nationalists with racism in any way.

Race is mentioned only in reference to historical fact that colonial America Christianity was white, Protestant and male dominated. That is a fact that you can not deny.

The way you listed white and nationalist together, without commas, was if not purposefully confusing, was certainly accidentally confusing.


Now that I have brought this issue to your attention, repeatedly, all you have to do is, start using commas.


Unless, you really ARE trying to conflate them, and your denial is a lie.


So, which is it?