Even if Biden wins, it doesn’t matter.

[BlackSand]

You say you desire unity, yet you call me a nit-wit, and then say, I ask stupid questions.
So this is your way to unify ?...Sad, so sad.
And all I did was ask a legitimate and simple question, in reference to the topic of this thread mind you, that both you and your dear friend avoided.

Neither are particularly harsh or offensive.
I am no more obligated to follow your trail of breadcrumbs than you are to follow mine.

In a nutshell ... If you think I should be more concerned about Russia, China or Portugal for that matter ...
I don't think any of them come near the danger we are experiencing here and among ourselves.

You may disagree, and explaining why would be encouraged.
If you want to keep trying to pigeonhole me with your desired course of discussion, after I have made myself clear to that point on several occasions ...
Then you are a nit-wit ...

.

 

[Coyote]

What this election has told us, in multiple ways, is that our country has fundamentally changed and that breaks my heart.

The Republicans are entrenched. They are likely to retain control of the senate, added to their House, and retained state legislatures. They have the courts. They will control redistricting after the census and we can expect continued gerrymandering to further marginalize Democrat voting blocks, leading to more districts where a minority of the voters controls a majority of the seats. Not unique to Republicans, but increasingly utilized by them.

The Democrats have still, somehow missed the mark. Again. They can’t seem to get a message to the people that unifies. Maybe this is because Biden is not strong candidate, and Trump carries the power of the incumbency into the election. There are some bright spots, retaining seats in Texas, tight margins in some key red states.

If Trump wins, I see a further dismantling of our nation’s democratic infrastructure and a continued decline in our image and effectiveness abroad. I see complete politicization of our departments, from tiny VOA to DoJ, and entire civil service where personal loyalty is demanded over competency and professionalism. When Trump talks about reorganizing military leadership, is he attempting to politicize the military? I do not think this is hyperbole. We have been seeing this trend for four years, E.O. after E.O.

If Trump wins, and continues his assault on long established unwritten rules of behavior and social norms what will we see coming out of this? When society agrees to an unwritten set of norms and our leaders hold to it, our institutions function smoothly even with bumps and potholes. But when those potholes become so extreme they threaten the structure and people can no longer navigate, we are forced to create laws or rules we never thought would be needed. Example: media resorting to fact checking, because the volume of disinformation and political lies exceeds the ability of our society to handle, and it is coming from our leadership. I fear, if Trump is re-elected further attacks on truth, on facts, and on genuine journalism.

But Trump doesn’t need to win for this. It is already rolling down on us. If Biden wins, a huge segment of America voted for Trump. Huge! And that is dismaying and unsettling, to me, because I see this election as not about which candidate to elect, but as who we are as a country and who we want to be going forward.

If Biden wins, what, at best will happen? A rollback of EO’s? Competent people making decisions? Rebuilding the integrity and professionalism of our battered institutions: DoJ, State Department, EPA, CDC, VOA,....

If Trump wins, there is nothing to stop him from using his offfice to go after his “enemies“, every person who has ever criticized, spoken up, or gone against him and firing those who won’t do it. I think this, coming from the top of our leadership, is an existential crisis. If Biden wins....maybe the Republicans can create a better party, without Trump.

I read, somewhere, that an alarming number of people no longer feel democratic principles are so important, and that a strong (authoritarian) leader might even be preferred to the messiness and uncertainties of democratic systems. I'm trying to find links to this, because I wonder if it plays into sentiments driving our country today.

Trump won 2016 by very narrow margins. 2020 will be the same, who ever wins. Will the people win?

Wait till you lose at least. Preemptive whining is unattractive

Oh STFU if can’t add something of substance. Your crap gets tiresome.

I think no matter who wins, it will be pyrric. Our country has fundamentally changed.

Go fuck yourself. YOU didn't even add a link in the forum that REQUIRES a link in the op.

Your feelings are irrelevant

Same to you. The forums do not require a link for opinion (you know, like 99% of the stuff you post). Let me know when the Antifa guy holding a gun to your and forcing you to read this thread let’s you go.

Chill out doll. I gotsta keep you on your toes. Do you know how many threads I've had move from this forum for not having a link?

Now, if you really wanna make good on the fuck you send me a pic & an addy

Now back to our regularly programmed political food fight.

 

[Tom Paine 1949]

Yes, it’s a nonstop political food fight here at USMB, election or no election. Meanwhile only the truly wealthy and unconcerned laugh all the way to the bank. See: And the Big Winner is ... the Stock Market!

 

[Remodeling Maidiac]

What this election has told us, in multiple ways, is that our country has fundamentally changed and that breaks my heart.

The Republicans are entrenched. They are likely to retain control of the senate, added to their House, and retained state legislatures. They have the courts. They will control redistricting after the census and we can expect continued gerrymandering to further marginalize Democrat voting blocks, leading to more districts where a minority of the voters controls a majority of the seats. Not unique to Republicans, but increasingly utilized by them.

The Democrats have still, somehow missed the mark. Again. They can’t seem to get a message to the people that unifies. Maybe this is because Biden is not strong candidate, and Trump carries the power of the incumbency into the election. There are some bright spots, retaining seats in Texas, tight margins in some key red states.

If Trump wins, I see a further dismantling of our nation’s democratic infrastructure and a continued decline in our image and effectiveness abroad. I see complete politicization of our departments, from tiny VOA to DoJ, and entire civil service where personal loyalty is demanded over competency and professionalism. When Trump talks about reorganizing military leadership, is he attempting to politicize the military? I do not think this is hyperbole. We have been seeing this trend for four years, E.O. after E.O.

If Trump wins, and continues his assault on long established unwritten rules of behavior and social norms what will we see coming out of this? When society agrees to an unwritten set of norms and our leaders hold to it, our institutions function smoothly even with bumps and potholes. But when those potholes become so extreme they threaten the structure and people can no longer navigate, we are forced to create laws or rules we never thought would be needed. Example: media resorting to fact checking, because the volume of disinformation and political lies exceeds the ability of our society to handle, and it is coming from our leadership. I fear, if Trump is re-elected further attacks on truth, on facts, and on genuine journalism.

But Trump doesn’t need to win for this. It is already rolling down on us. If Biden wins, a huge segment of America voted for Trump. Huge! And that is dismaying and unsettling, to me, because I see this election as not about which candidate to elect, but as who we are as a country and who we want to be going forward.

If Biden wins, what, at best will happen? A rollback of EO’s? Competent people making decisions? Rebuilding the integrity and professionalism of our battered institutions: DoJ, State Department, EPA, CDC, VOA,....

If Trump wins, there is nothing to stop him from using his offfice to go after his “enemies“, every person who has ever criticized, spoken up, or gone against him and firing those who won’t do it. I think this, coming from the top of our leadership, is an existential crisis. If Biden wins....maybe the Republicans can create a better party, without Trump.

I read, somewhere, that an alarming number of people no longer feel democratic principles are so important, and that a strong (authoritarian) leader might even be preferred to the messiness and uncertainties of democratic systems. I'm trying to find links to this, because I wonder if it plays into sentiments driving our country today.

Trump won 2016 by very narrow margins. 2020 will be the same, who ever wins. Will the people win?

Wait till you lose at least. Preemptive whining is unattractive

Oh STFU if can’t add something of substance. Your crap gets tiresome.

I think no matter who wins, it will be pyrric. Our country has fundamentally changed.

Go fuck yourself. YOU didn't even add a link in the forum that REQUIRES a link in the op.

Your feelings are irrelevant

Same to you. The forums do not require a link for opinion (you know, like 99% of the stuff you post). Let me know when the Antifa guy holding a gun to your and forcing you to read this thread let’s you go.

Chill out doll. I gotsta keep you on your toes. Do you know how many threads I've had move from this forum for not having a link?

Now, if you really wanna make good on the fuck you send me a pic & an addy

View attachment 411791

Now back to our regularly programmed political food fight.

 

[Polishprince]

What this election has told us, in multiple ways, is that our country has fundamentally changed and that breaks my heart.

The Republicans are entrenched. They are likely to retain control of the senate, added to their House, and retained state legislatures. They have the courts. They will control redistricting after the census and we can expect continued gerrymandering to further marginalize Democrat voting blocks, leading to more districts where a minority of the voters controls a majority of the seats. Not unique to Republicans, but increasingly utilized by them.

The Democrats have still, somehow missed the mark. Again. They can’t seem to get a message to the people that unifies. Maybe this is because Biden is not strong candidate, and Trump carries the power of the incumbency into the election. There are some bright spots, retaining seats in Texas, tight margins in some key red states.

If Trump wins, I see a further dismantling of our nation’s democratic infrastructure and a continued decline in our image and effectiveness abroad. I see complete politicization of our departments, from tiny VOA to DoJ, and entire civil service where personal loyalty is demanded over competency and professionalism. When Trump talks about reorganizing military leadership, is he attempting to politicize the military? I do not think this is hyperbole. We have been seeing this trend for four years, E.O. after E.O.

If Trump wins, and continues his assault on long established unwritten rules of behavior and social norms what will we see coming out of this? When society agrees to an unwritten set of norms and our leaders hold to it, our institutions function smoothly even with bumps and potholes. But when those potholes become so extreme they threaten the structure and people can no longer navigate, we are forced to create laws or rules we never thought would be needed. Example: media resorting to fact checking, because the volume of disinformation and political lies exceeds the ability of our society to handle, and it is coming from our leadership. I fear, if Trump is re-elected further attacks on truth, on facts, and on genuine journalism.

But Trump doesn’t need to win for this. It is already rolling down on us. If Biden wins, a huge segment of America voted for Trump. Huge! And that is dismaying and unsettling, to me, because I see this election as not about which candidate to elect, but as who we are as a country and who we want to be going forward.

If Biden wins, what, at best will happen? A rollback of EO’s? Competent people making decisions? Rebuilding the integrity and professionalism of our battered institutions: DoJ, State Department, EPA, CDC, VOA,....

If Trump wins, there is nothing to stop him from using his offfice to go after his “enemies“, every person who has ever criticized, spoken up, or gone against him and firing those who won’t do it. I think this, coming from the top of our leadership, is an existential crisis. If Biden wins....maybe the Republicans can create a better party, without Trump.

I read, somewhere, that an alarming number of people no longer feel democratic principles are so important, and that a strong (authoritarian) leader might even be preferred to the messiness and uncertainties of democratic systems. I'm trying to find links to this, because I wonder if it plays into sentiments driving our country today.

Trump won 2016 by very narrow margins. 2020 will be the same, who ever wins. Will the people win?

A President Biden will open up the borders and admit millions of Illegals which will change the demographics, even if he doesn't have the Senate and can't admit new liberal states and pack the courts.

I expect the Lincoln Project to be big in 2024 to try and capture the nomination, but if the Trumps are still around, Don Jr. will be the opposition in the primaries to Romney or Flake.

 

[Polishprince]

Yes, it’s a nonstop political food fight here at USMB, election or no election. Meanwhile only the truly wealthy and unconcerned laugh all the way to the bank. See: And the Big Winner is ... the Stock Market!

A lot of not wealthy yet people are in the Stock Market.

 

[BlackSand]

Left and right isn’t totally defined by government control, there are a number of different factors and overlap, especially at the extremes.

I think it is the the desire to lump people together more than incidental overlap of actual theory or belief.
I have had people call me a Fascist before, and even as a Conservative, I am more Liberal than the people they call Liberals ...

.

 

[dblack]

We're not that divided if you get rid of the cults of personality. On issues, Americans are somewhat congruent.

I laugh

I think GT makes a good point. We're driven into opposite corners by a flawed election process that radicalizes the division.

We take ourselves different directions because we want different things.

At one point we all wanted the USA to be better every day, we simply had different ideas on how to get there.

Now, one side wants the US to be great,
the other side wants to gut it and start over.

Hard to compromise those two positions.

The point is, the two sides have been driven into diametrically opposed positions because of our election system. Our system encourages radicalized opposition

The gulf is too wide between the ideologies.

Too many people on the Left believe that Fascism, Socialism and Communism can actually work this time. I'd support giving them free airfare to Venezuela

Fascism comes from the right in response to communism.

Hard to square that with the fact that FASCISM is essentially about total gov't control, which the right is against. Today's Left would seem to be more fascist, no?

Left and right isn’t totally defined by government control, there are a number of different factors and overlap, especially at the extremes.

From a libertarian perspective, both the right left are fixated on control. They just have a different list of things they want to control. Ultimately, both view government in the same way - as a vehicle for forcing their will on others.

 

[Dogbiscuit]

You say you desire unity, yet you call me a nit-wit, and then say, I ask stupid questions.
So this is your way to unify ?...Sad, so sad.
And all I did was ask a legitimate and simple question, in reference to the topic of this thread mind you, that both you and your dear friend avoided.

Neither are particularly harsh or offensive.
I am no more obligated to follow your trail of breadcrumbs than you are to follow mine.

In a nutshell ... If you think I should be more concerned about Russia, China or Portugal for that matter ...
I don't think any of them come near the danger we are experiencing here and among ourselves.

You may disagree, and explaining why would be encouraged.
If you want to keep trying to pigeonhole me with your desired course of discussion, after I have made myself clear to that point on several occasions ...
Then you are a nit-wit ...

.

That makes you a lying dog faced pony soldier, because at least Im on topic.
You say you want unity, but youre really mad because your daddy Trump has not started a single WAR, and is pulling us out of endless wars, also middle east peace plans coming in left and right, in combination with what he has accomplished in 4 years.
But wait !?!? You want unity !!!!!!!!!!!

 

[dblack]

I think you're overstating what this election says about the state of our society, and missing an obvious lesson. What Trump has shown us is just how susceptible we are to populism, especially when it's driven by an unscrupulous demagogue. This is why I always cringe at the modern liberal's worship of "democracy". Most voters are ignorant and easily fooled. We need less democracy, not more.

Less democracy? Really? Like what exactly?

What we need is more truth, which we ain't getting from just about everybody. IMHO what we need is a better educated populace in civics, which our kids ain't getting and many of us didn't either. And I think we need more tolerance, nobody should be fired for their opinion or denounced for offering a different view from someone else's.

Yes! I graduated high school in 77...have no kids. I don’t what they teach now, but my mother was saying very little history prior to the Civil War Is being taught. Is civics actually taught?

FYI:

1. Only nine states and the District of Columbia require one year of U.S. government or civics. Thirty-one states only require a half-year of civics or U.S. government education, and 10 states have no civics requirement.* ** While federal education policy has focused on improving academic achievement in reading and math, this has come at the expense of a broader curriculum. Most states have dedicated insufficient class time to understanding the basic functions of government at the expense of other courses.

The State of Civics Education

Civic education must be comprehensive and engaging to prepare the next generation to be knowledgeable and active leaders.

www.americanprogress.org

I'm not, AT ALL, supporting these kinds of limitations on who is allowed to vote. Such an evaluation is entirely subjective and will inevitably be used to fuck with people.

What I'm talking about is our attitude toward democracy. There's nothing particularly noble or virtuous about it. At its core it's a concession to mob rule. It's only real virtue is that it's relatively stable - people are less likely to revolt if most of them approve of what's going on. But there's nothing inherently good about it.

 

[MisterBeale]

I think you're overstating what this election says about the state of our society, and missing an obvious lesson. What Trump has shown us is just how susceptible we are to populism, especially when it's driven by an unscrupulous demagogue. This is why I always cringe at the modern liberal's worship of "democracy". Most voters are ignorant and easily fooled. We need less democracy, not more.

Less democracy? Really? Like what exactly?

What we need is more truth, which we ain't getting from just about everybody. IMHO what we need is a better educated populace in civics, which our kids ain't getting and many of us didn't either. And I think we need more tolerance, nobody should be fired for their opinion or denounced for offering a different view from someone else's.

Yes! I graduated high school in 77...have no kids. I don’t what they teach now, but my mother was saying very little history prior to the Civil War Is being taught. Is civics actually taught?

FYI:

1. Only nine states and the District of Columbia require one year of U.S. government or civics. Thirty-one states only require a half-year of civics or U.S. government education, and 10 states have no civics requirement.* ** While federal education policy has focused on improving academic achievement in reading and math, this has come at the expense of a broader curriculum. Most states have dedicated insufficient class time to understanding the basic functions of government at the expense of other courses.

The State of Civics Education

Civic education must be comprehensive and engaging to prepare the next generation to be knowledgeable and active leaders.

www.americanprogress.org

I'm not, AT ALL, supporting these kinds of limitations on who is allowed to vote. Such an evaluation is entirely subjective and will inevitably be used to fuck with people.

What I'm talking about is our attitude toward democracy. There's nothing particularly noble or virtuous about it. At its core it's a concession to mob rule. It's only real virtue is that it's relatively stable - people are less likely to revolt if most of them approve of what's going on. But there's nothing inherently good about it.

Without publicly funded campaigns? The only thing representational democracy does is give the fig leaf of legitimacy to the Corporatocracy.

Most folks don't have a clue how things are actually done, or how the majority of laws really get written and negotiated. Nor do they really know how administration is really carried out. Just some vague notion that has no resemblance to reality anymore.

 

[BlackSand]

That makes you a lying dog faced pony soldier, because at least Im on topic.
You say you want unity, but youre really mad because your daddy Trump has not started a single WAR, and is pulling us out of endless wars, also middle east peace plans coming in left and right, in combination with what he has accomplished in 4 years.
But wait !?!? You want unity !!!!!!!!!!!

Lol ... I voted for President Trump you nit-wit ...

I served overseas my entire military career, and I am glad we are getting out of places like Afghanistan.

I was pleased with the fact that when President Trump approached Middle East peace talks he didn't try to do it like everyone who had failed before him.
He didn't go to the table talking about what each side was going to have to give up.
He moved our Embassy to Jerusalem, then went to the Arab Summit and convinced them they wanted to be business partners instead of enemies.

You just want to fight with me so bad, you cannot see what is in front of you.

By the way, when I call you a nit-wit, don't get upset.
Think of us sitting around the fire ring behind the house after killing a stack of grilled chicken wings, and maybe some leftover carrot cake.
Me looking over the top of a mixed drink smiling and saying ... "You're a nit-wit".

Where I am from, if someone insists on missing the point over and over, in attempts to be ornery, and the other person doesn't call you a nit-wit (or worse) ...
It's only because they don't trust you, don't like you, or both ...

.

 

[Dogbiscuit]

That makes you a lying dog faced pony soldier, because at least Im on topic.
You say you want unity, but youre really mad because your daddy Trump has not started a single WAR, and is pulling us out of endless wars, also middle east peace plans coming in left and right, in combination with what he has accomplished in 4 years.
But wait !?!? You want unity !!!!!!!!!!!

Lol ... I voted for President Trump you nit-wit ...

I served overseas my entire military career, and I am glad we are getting out of places like Afghanistan.

I was pleased with the fact that when President Trump approached Middle East peace talks he didn't try to do it like everyone who had failed before him.
He didn't go to the table talking about what each side was going to have to give up.
He moved our Embassy to Jerusalem, then went to the Arab Summit and convinced them they wanted to business partners instead of enemies.

You just want to fight with me so bad, you cannot see what is in front of you.

By the way, when I call you a nit-wit, don't get upset.
Think of us sitting around the fire ring behind the house after killing a stack of grilled chicken wings, and maybe some leftover carrot cake.
Me looking over the top of a mixed drink smiling and saying ... "You're a nit-wit".

Where I am from, if someone insists on missing the point over and over, in attempts to ornery, and the other person doesn't call you a nit-wit (or worse) ...
It's only because they don't trust you, don't like you, or both ...

.

So these are all the things you have wrote down somewhere ?
Give me a break. You happen to be the one who was confrontational, by inserting yourself into the conversation to begin with, oh dear peacemaker. Have you forgotten that little nugget ?
You have a very abstract way of lying.

 

[BlackSand]

So these are all the things you have wrote down somewhere ?
Give me a break. You happen to be the one who was confrontational, by inserting yourself into the conversation to begin with, oh dear peacemaker. Have you forgotten that little nugget ?
You have a very abstract way of lying.

I inserted a point that addressed what I actually thought was a greater concern than any existential threat, in reference to your comment.
You have done nothing but continue to ignore the simplicity of it.

That means I was terribly mistaken, and I must apologize.
You're not a nit-wit ... You're an incorrigible nit-wit ...

.

 

[Dogbiscuit]

So these are all the things you have wrote down somewhere ?
Give me a break. You happen to be the one who was confrontational, by inserting yourself into the conversation to begin with, oh dear peacemaker. Have you forgotten that little nugget ?
You have a very abstract way of lying.

I inserted a point that addressed what I actually thought was a greater concern than any existential threat, in reference to your comment.
You have done nothing but continue to ignore the simplicity of it.

That means I was terribly mistaken, and I must apologize.
You're not a nit-wit ... You're an incorrigible nit-wit ...

.

Well when you're wrong, at least you got one thing right, you apologized.

 

[task0778]

Fascism comes from the right in response to communism.

Hard to square that with the fact that FASCISM is essentially about total gov't control, which the right is against. Today's Left would seem to be more fascist, no?

Left and right isn’t totally defined by government control, there are a number of different factors and overlap, especially at the extremes.

We're not that divided if you get rid of the cults of personality. On issues, Americans are somewhat congruent.

I laugh

I think GT makes a good point. We're driven into opposite corners by a flawed election process that radicalizes the division.

We take ourselves different directions because we want different things.

At one point we all wanted the USA to be better every day, we simply had different ideas on how to get there.

Now, one side wants the US to be great,
the other side wants to gut it and start over.

Hard to compromise those two positions.

The point is, the two sides have been driven into diametrically opposed positions because of our election system. Our system encourages radicalized opposition

The gulf is too wide between the ideologies.

Too many people on the Left believe that Fascism, Socialism and Communism can actually work this time. I'd support giving them free airfare to Venezuela

Fascism comes from the right in response to communism.

Hard to square that with the fact that FASCISM is essentially about total gov't control, which the right is against. Today's Left would seem to be more fascist, no?

Left and right isn’t totally defined by government control, there are a number of different factors and overlap, especially at the extremes.

From a libertarian perspective, both the right left are fixated on control. They just have a different list of things they want to control. Ultimately, both view government in the same way - as a vehicle for forcing their will on others.

" From a libertarian perspective, both the right left are fixated on control. They just have a different list of things they want to control. Ultimately, both view government in the same way - as a vehicle for forcing their will on others. "

I'm not seeing the Right as fixated on gov't control as much as the Left is, leaving Trump out of it as an outlier which I think he is. In general the Right is all about less gov't control, so tell me where I'm wrong.

 

[dblack]

Fascism comes from the right in response to communism.

Hard to square that with the fact that FASCISM is essentially about total gov't control, which the right is against. Today's Left would seem to be more fascist, no?

Left and right isn’t totally defined by government control, there are a number of different factors and overlap, especially at the extremes.

We're not that divided if you get rid of the cults of personality. On issues, Americans are somewhat congruent.

I laugh

I think GT makes a good point. We're driven into opposite corners by a flawed election process that radicalizes the division.

We take ourselves different directions because we want different things.

At one point we all wanted the USA to be better every day, we simply had different ideas on how to get there.

Now, one side wants the US to be great,
the other side wants to gut it and start over.

Hard to compromise those two positions.

The point is, the two sides have been driven into diametrically opposed positions because of our election system. Our system encourages radicalized opposition

The gulf is too wide between the ideologies.

Too many people on the Left believe that Fascism, Socialism and Communism can actually work this time. I'd support giving them free airfare to Venezuela

Fascism comes from the right in response to communism.

Hard to square that with the fact that FASCISM is essentially about total gov't control, which the right is against. Today's Left would seem to be more fascist, no?

Left and right isn’t totally defined by government control, there are a number of different factors and overlap, especially at the extremes.

From a libertarian perspective, both the right left are fixated on control. They just have a different list of things they want to control. Ultimately, both view government in the same way - as a vehicle for forcing their will on others.

" From a libertarian perspective, both the right left are fixated on control. They just have a different list of things they want to control. Ultimately, both view government in the same way - as a vehicle for forcing their will on others. "

I'm not seeing the Right as fixated on gov't control as much as the Left is, leaving Trump out of it as an outlier which I think he is. In general the Right is all about less gov't control, so tell me where I'm wrong.

Drugs, abortion, the calls to sanction social media, closed borders, tariffs, etc ... Not really looking to debate those issues, I'm sure Republicans have their excuses for each - but they are about control. And the one thing where libertarians should be able to find common ground with Republicans, namely economic liberty - is largely misunderstood by Trump Republicans. They never deregulate, they re-regulate, in a way that rewards their constituency. They don't lower taxes across across the board, it's always targeted to reward their friends, and they never, ever make a genuine attempt to cut spending. Taking people's money and spending it for them is pure "control", even if the cost is ultimately pushed off on their children.

 

[Billiejeens]

Fascism comes from the right in response to communism.

Hard to square that with the fact that FASCISM is essentially about total gov't control, which the right is against. Today's Left would seem to be more fascist, no?

Left and right isn’t totally defined by government control, there are a number of different factors and overlap, especially at the extremes.

We're not that divided if you get rid of the cults of personality. On issues, Americans are somewhat congruent.

I laugh

I think GT makes a good point. We're driven into opposite corners by a flawed election process that radicalizes the division.

We take ourselves different directions because we want different things.

At one point we all wanted the USA to be better every day, we simply had different ideas on how to get there.

Now, one side wants the US to be great,
the other side wants to gut it and start over.

Hard to compromise those two positions.

The point is, the two sides have been driven into diametrically opposed positions because of our election system. Our system encourages radicalized opposition

The gulf is too wide between the ideologies.

Too many people on the Left believe that Fascism, Socialism and Communism can actually work this time. I'd support giving them free airfare to Venezuela

Fascism comes from the right in response to communism.

Hard to square that with the fact that FASCISM is essentially about total gov't control, which the right is against. Today's Left would seem to be more fascist, no?

Left and right isn’t totally defined by government control, there are a number of different factors and overlap, especially at the extremes.

From a libertarian perspective, both the right left are fixated on control. They just have a different list of things they want to control. Ultimately, both view government in the same way - as a vehicle for forcing their will on others.

" From a libertarian perspective, both the right left are fixated on control. They just have a different list of things they want to control. Ultimately, both view government in the same way - as a vehicle for forcing their will on others. "

I'm not seeing the Right as fixated on gov't control as much as the Left is, leaving Trump out of it as an outlier which I think he is. In general the Right is all about less gov't control, so tell me where I'm wrong.

The right thinks that women shouldn't kill their babies.
That's all they got.

 

[gipper]

Fascism comes from the right in response to communism.

Hard to square that with the fact that FASCISM is essentially about total gov't control, which the right is against. Today's Left would seem to be more fascist, no?

Left and right isn’t totally defined by government control, there are a number of different factors and overlap, especially at the extremes.

We're not that divided if you get rid of the cults of personality. On issues, Americans are somewhat congruent.

I laugh

I think GT makes a good point. We're driven into opposite corners by a flawed election process that radicalizes the division.

We take ourselves different directions because we want different things.

At one point we all wanted the USA to be better every day, we simply had different ideas on how to get there.

Now, one side wants the US to be great,
the other side wants to gut it and start over.

Hard to compromise those two positions.

The point is, the two sides have been driven into diametrically opposed positions because of our election system. Our system encourages radicalized opposition

The gulf is too wide between the ideologies.

Too many people on the Left believe that Fascism, Socialism and Communism can actually work this time. I'd support giving them free airfare to Venezuela

Fascism comes from the right in response to communism.

Hard to square that with the fact that FASCISM is essentially about total gov't control, which the right is against. Today's Left would seem to be more fascist, no?

Left and right isn’t totally defined by government control, there are a number of different factors and overlap, especially at the extremes.

From a libertarian perspective, both the right left are fixated on control. They just have a different list of things they want to control. Ultimately, both view government in the same way - as a vehicle for forcing their will on others.

" From a libertarian perspective, both the right left are fixated on control. They just have a different list of things they want to control. Ultimately, both view government in the same way - as a vehicle for forcing their will on others. "

I'm not seeing the Right as fixated on gov't control as much as the Left is, leaving Trump out of it as an outlier which I think he is. In general the Right is all about less gov't control, so tell me where I'm wrong.

There is little difference between the two parties. Their main concerns are satisfying their donors...the big corporations and billionaires.

 

[BlackSand]

Drugs, abortion, the calls to sanction social media, closed borders, tariffs, etc ... Not really looking to debate those issues, I'm sure Republicans have their excuses for each - but they are about control. And the one thing where libertarians should be able to find common ground with Republicans, namely economic liberty - is largely misunderstood by Trump Republicans. They never deregulate, they re-regulate, in a way that rewards their constituency. They don't lower taxes across across the board, it's always targeted to reward their friends, and they never, ever make a genuine attempt to cut spending. Taking people's money and spending it for them is pure "control", even if the cost is ultimately pushed off on their children.

Getting Libertarians to agree with each other (much less Republicans) can be like herding cats ...
Oh they can agree on some things, but eventually they understand there is no Liberty in governing ... Because to govern is to limit in the first place.

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