Even if Biden wins, it doesn’t matter.

[P@triot]

Can you speak freely @ berkeley?

Nope. No, you cannot. You will absolutely be assaulted at Berkley if you advocate for small, limited government adhering to the constitution.

 

[P@triot]

There is little difference between the two parties. Their main concerns are satisfying their donors...the big corporations and billionaires.

Yawn. This tired and trite cliché has completely run it’s course.

That is literally as stupid as saying “there is little difference between a trans woman and an actual woman”. The differences in the two parties are monumental. Just stop your “ironic hipster outsider” nonsense.

 

[P@triot]

Oh they can agree on somethings, but eventually they understand there is no Liberty in governing ... Because to govern is to limit in the first place.

I have to tip my hat to BlackSand on that one. A very astute observation that explains why libertarians are as ignorant as progressives.

 

[P@triot]

Left and right isn’t totally defined by government control, there are a number of different factors and overlap, especially at the extremes.

You were doing so well until that last part. You cannot have “overlap” at the extreme ends of the spectrum. They are literally the definition of polar opposites.

 

[Coyote]

Left and right isn’t totally defined by government control, there are a number of different factors and overlap, especially at the extremes.

You were doing so well until that last part. You cannot have “overlap” at the extreme ends of the spectrum. They are literally the definition of polar opposites.

What if the political spectrum isn’t linear?

 

[Papageorgio]

The gulf is too wide between the ideologies.

That is what I fear....but there have to be some commonalities on which to build a bridge or we are doomed.

I don’t think the country is going to be better or worse no matter who wins. Both parties are run by big corporations, both put party over country. Maybe one day we’ll elect a leader, we haven’t had one since Reagan and before that was JFK.

 

[BlackSand]

Left and right isn’t totally defined by government control, there are a number of different factors and overlap, especially at the extremes.

You were doing so well until that last part. You cannot have “overlap” at the extreme ends of the spectrum. They are literally the definition of polar opposites.

What if the political spectrum isn’t linear?

.

It's not linear ... It's a Horseshoe.
The far right and far left are closer to each other than the center ...


.

.

 

[ninja007]

What this election has told us, in multiple ways, is that our country has fundamentally changed and that breaks my heart.

The Republicans are entrenched. They are likely to retain control of the senate, added to their House, and retained state legislatures. They have the courts. They will control redistricting after the census and we can expect continued gerrymandering to further marginalize Democrat voting blocks, leading to more districts where a minority of the voters controls a majority of the seats. Not unique to Republicans, but increasingly utilized by them.

The Democrats have still, somehow missed the mark. Again. They can’t seem to get a message to the people that unifies. Maybe this is because Biden is not strong candidate, and Trump carries the power of the incumbency into the election. There are some bright spots, retaining seats in Texas, tight margins in some key red states.

If Trump wins, I see a further dismantling of our nation’s democratic infrastructure and a continued decline in our image and effectiveness abroad. I see complete politicization of our departments, from tiny VOA to DoJ, and entire civil service where personal loyalty is demanded over competency and professionalism. When Trump talks about reorganizing military leadership, is he attempting to politicize the military? I do not think this is hyperbole. We have been seeing this trend for four years, E.O. after E.O.

If Trump wins, and continues his assault on long established unwritten rules of behavior and social norms what will we see coming out of this? When society agrees to an unwritten set of norms and our leaders hold to it, our institutions function smoothly even with bumps and potholes. But when those potholes become so extreme they threaten the structure and people can no longer navigate, we are forced to create laws or rules we never thought would be needed. Example: media resorting to fact checking, because the volume of disinformation and political lies exceeds the ability of our society to handle, and it is coming from our leadership. I fear, if Trump is re-elected further attacks on truth, on facts, and on genuine journalism.

But Trump doesn’t need to win for this. It is already rolling down on us. If Biden wins, a huge segment of America voted for Trump. Huge! And that is dismaying and unsettling, to me, because I see this election as not about which candidate to elect, but as who we are as a country and who we want to be going forward.

If Biden wins, what, at best will happen? A rollback of EO’s? Competent people making decisions? Rebuilding the integrity and professionalism of our battered institutions: DoJ, State Department, EPA, CDC, VOA,....

If Trump wins, there is nothing to stop him from using his offfice to go after his “enemies“, every person who has ever criticized, spoken up, or gone against him and firing those who won’t do it. I think this, coming from the top of our leadership, is an existential crisis. If Biden wins....maybe the Republicans can create a better party, without Trump.

I read, somewhere, that an alarming number of people no longer feel democratic principles are so important, and that a strong (authoritarian) leader might even be preferred to the messiness and uncertainties of democratic systems. I'm trying to find links to this, because I wonder if it plays into sentiments driving our country today.

Trump won 2016 by very narrow margins. 2020 will be the same, who ever wins. Will the people win?

the people havent won in quite a while.....

I don’t know...but this election, tbe historically huge turn out, what does that say about the people?

THE ONLY HUGE TURN OUT FOR BIDEN WAS MILLIONS OF FAKE VOTES FOR HIM, WHILE THE TRUMP POLLSTERS WERE BLOCKED OUT.

 

[Coyote]

The gulf is too wide between the ideologies.

That is what I fear....but there have to be some commonalities on which to build a bridge or we are doomed.

I don’t think the country is going to be better or worse no matter who wins. Both parties are run by big corporations, both put party over country. Maybe one day we’ll elect a leader, we haven’t had one since Reagan and before that was JFK.

There is that.

 

[Coyote]

Left and right isn’t totally defined by government control, there are a number of different factors and overlap, especially at the extremes.

You were doing so well until that last part. You cannot have “overlap” at the extreme ends of the spectrum. They are literally the definition of polar opposites.

What if the political spectrum isn’t linear?

.

It's not linear ... It's a Horseshoe.
The far right and far left are closer to each other than the center ...


.

View attachment 411917​

.

Thank you! I have seen that diagram, but with different labels. The main thing is both ideologies, at their extremes be one authoritarian with more in common with each other than the rest of their spectrum.

 

[AzogtheDefiler]

What this election has told us, in multiple ways, is that our country has fundamentally changed and that breaks my heart.

The Republicans are entrenched. They are likely to retain control of the senate, added to their House, and retained state legislatures. They have the courts. They will control redistricting after the census and we can expect continued gerrymandering to further marginalize Democrat voting blocks, leading to more districts where a minority of the voters controls a majority of the seats. Not unique to Republicans, but increasingly utilized by them.

The Democrats have still, somehow missed the mark. Again. They can’t seem to get a message to the people that unifies. Maybe this is because Biden is not strong candidate, and Trump carries the power of the incumbency into the election. There are some bright spots, retaining seats in Texas, tight margins in some key red states.

If Trump wins, I see a further dismantling of our nation’s democratic infrastructure and a continued decline in our image and effectiveness abroad. I see complete politicization of our departments, from tiny VOA to DoJ, and entire civil service where personal loyalty is demanded over competency and professionalism. When Trump talks about reorganizing military leadership, is he attempting to politicize the military? I do not think this is hyperbole. We have been seeing this trend for four years, E.O. after E.O.

If Trump wins, and continues his assault on long established unwritten rules of behavior and social norms what will we see coming out of this? When society agrees to an unwritten set of norms and our leaders hold to it, our institutions function smoothly even with bumps and potholes. But when those potholes become so extreme they threaten the structure and people can no longer navigate, we are forced to create laws or rules we never thought would be needed. Example: media resorting to fact checking, because the volume of disinformation and political lies exceeds the ability of our society to handle, and it is coming from our leadership. I fear, if Trump is re-elected further attacks on truth, on facts, and on genuine journalism.

But Trump doesn’t need to win for this. It is already rolling down on us. If Biden wins, a huge segment of America voted for Trump. Huge! And that is dismaying and unsettling, to me, because I see this election as not about which candidate to elect, but as who we are as a country and who we want to be going forward.

If Biden wins, what, at best will happen? A rollback of EO’s? Competent people making decisions? Rebuilding the integrity and professionalism of our battered institutions: DoJ, State Department, EPA, CDC, VOA,....

If Trump wins, there is nothing to stop him from using his offfice to go after his “enemies“, every person who has ever criticized, spoken up, or gone against him and firing those who won’t do it. I think this, coming from the top of our leadership, is an existential crisis. If Biden wins....maybe the Republicans can create a better party, without Trump.

I read, somewhere, that an alarming number of people no longer feel democratic principles are so important, and that a strong (authoritarian) leader might even be preferred to the messiness and uncertainties of democratic systems. I'm trying to find links to this, because I wonder if it plays into sentiments driving our country today.

Trump won 2016 by very narrow margins. 2020 will be the same, who ever wins. Will the people win?

If Democrats weren’t so easily offended and stopped telling me that trans girls are identical to biological girls then maybe we could have a civil discussion on how to better this country. Currently you and I can barely hold a civil discussion but you want the rest of the country to fall in line. Do explain how. Thanks.

 

[ninja007]

What's changed? Could it be democrats legalising hard drugs, supporting pedophilla, taking hard earned money to give to illegals and never do wells, demanding Christians bow down to perversions, burning and looting at every given chance, defunding those that keep us safe, etc!

Yeah shit changed....not for the better for sure

No one supports pedo. My own hard earned money goes to support Christian groups Whether I want to or not. Nor do I or anyone I know support burning and looting or engage in it.

Nonsense, we see the news stories and the links, the arrests. The left supports all manner of perversity including pedophiles. Did I mention hollywood?

Disagree. I see support for underage marriage coming from the right for example (remember Duck Dynasty?). What adults do with other adults is their business. As a leftist, I strongly support protecting children, having a legal marriage age where children aren't marrying children, but finishing their education instead. That's my leftist thinking.

YOU OBV HAVENT SEEN 10 MIN VIDEO COMPILATION OF BIDEN TOUCHING AND SNIFFING LITTLE GIRLS?

 

[Coyote]

What this election has told us, in multiple ways, is that our country has fundamentally changed and that breaks my heart.

The Republicans are entrenched. They are likely to retain control of the senate, added to their House, and retained state legislatures. They have the courts. They will control redistricting after the census and we can expect continued gerrymandering to further marginalize Democrat voting blocks, leading to more districts where a minority of the voters controls a majority of the seats. Not unique to Republicans, but increasingly utilized by them.

The Democrats have still, somehow missed the mark. Again. They can’t seem to get a message to the people that unifies. Maybe this is because Biden is not strong candidate, and Trump carries the power of the incumbency into the election. There are some bright spots, retaining seats in Texas, tight margins in some key red states.

If Trump wins, I see a further dismantling of our nation’s democratic infrastructure and a continued decline in our image and effectiveness abroad. I see complete politicization of our departments, from tiny VOA to DoJ, and entire civil service where personal loyalty is demanded over competency and professionalism. When Trump talks about reorganizing military leadership, is he attempting to politicize the military? I do not think this is hyperbole. We have been seeing this trend for four years, E.O. after E.O.

If Trump wins, and continues his assault on long established unwritten rules of behavior and social norms what will we see coming out of this? When society agrees to an unwritten set of norms and our leaders hold to it, our institutions function smoothly even with bumps and potholes. But when those potholes become so extreme they threaten the structure and people can no longer navigate, we are forced to create laws or rules we never thought would be needed. Example: media resorting to fact checking, because the volume of disinformation and political lies exceeds the ability of our society to handle, and it is coming from our leadership. I fear, if Trump is re-elected further attacks on truth, on facts, and on genuine journalism.

But Trump doesn’t need to win for this. It is already rolling down on us. If Biden wins, a huge segment of America voted for Trump. Huge! And that is dismaying and unsettling, to me, because I see this election as not about which candidate to elect, but as who we are as a country and who we want to be going forward.

If Biden wins, what, at best will happen? A rollback of EO’s? Competent people making decisions? Rebuilding the integrity and professionalism of our battered institutions: DoJ, State Department, EPA, CDC, VOA,....

If Trump wins, there is nothing to stop him from using his offfice to go after his “enemies“, every person who has ever criticized, spoken up, or gone against him and firing those who won’t do it. I think this, coming from the top of our leadership, is an existential crisis. If Biden wins....maybe the Republicans can create a better party, without Trump.

I read, somewhere, that an alarming number of people no longer feel democratic principles are so important, and that a strong (authoritarian) leader might even be preferred to the messiness and uncertainties of democratic systems. I'm trying to find links to this, because I wonder if it plays into sentiments driving our country today.

Trump won 2016 by very narrow margins. 2020 will be the same, who ever wins. Will the people win?

If Democrats weren’t so easily offended and stopped telling me that trans girls are identical to biological girls then maybe we could have a civil discussion on how to better this country. Currently you and I can barely hold a civil discussion but you want the rest of the country to fall in line. Do explain how. Thanks.

I don’t think this is about anyone falling in line.

 

[AzogtheDefiler]

What this election has told us, in multiple ways, is that our country has fundamentally changed and that breaks my heart.

The Republicans are entrenched. They are likely to retain control of the senate, added to their House, and retained state legislatures. They have the courts. They will control redistricting after the census and we can expect continued gerrymandering to further marginalize Democrat voting blocks, leading to more districts where a minority of the voters controls a majority of the seats. Not unique to Republicans, but increasingly utilized by them.

The Democrats have still, somehow missed the mark. Again. They can’t seem to get a message to the people that unifies. Maybe this is because Biden is not strong candidate, and Trump carries the power of the incumbency into the election. There are some bright spots, retaining seats in Texas, tight margins in some key red states.

If Trump wins, I see a further dismantling of our nation’s democratic infrastructure and a continued decline in our image and effectiveness abroad. I see complete politicization of our departments, from tiny VOA to DoJ, and entire civil service where personal loyalty is demanded over competency and professionalism. When Trump talks about reorganizing military leadership, is he attempting to politicize the military? I do not think this is hyperbole. We have been seeing this trend for four years, E.O. after E.O.

If Trump wins, and continues his assault on long established unwritten rules of behavior and social norms what will we see coming out of this? When society agrees to an unwritten set of norms and our leaders hold to it, our institutions function smoothly even with bumps and potholes. But when those potholes become so extreme they threaten the structure and people can no longer navigate, we are forced to create laws or rules we never thought would be needed. Example: media resorting to fact checking, because the volume of disinformation and political lies exceeds the ability of our society to handle, and it is coming from our leadership. I fear, if Trump is re-elected further attacks on truth, on facts, and on genuine journalism.

But Trump doesn’t need to win for this. It is already rolling down on us. If Biden wins, a huge segment of America voted for Trump. Huge! And that is dismaying and unsettling, to me, because I see this election as not about which candidate to elect, but as who we are as a country and who we want to be going forward.

If Biden wins, what, at best will happen? A rollback of EO’s? Competent people making decisions? Rebuilding the integrity and professionalism of our battered institutions: DoJ, State Department, EPA, CDC, VOA,....

If Trump wins, there is nothing to stop him from using his offfice to go after his “enemies“, every person who has ever criticized, spoken up, or gone against him and firing those who won’t do it. I think this, coming from the top of our leadership, is an existential crisis. If Biden wins....maybe the Republicans can create a better party, without Trump.

I read, somewhere, that an alarming number of people no longer feel democratic principles are so important, and that a strong (authoritarian) leader might even be preferred to the messiness and uncertainties of democratic systems. I'm trying to find links to this, because I wonder if it plays into sentiments driving our country today.

Trump won 2016 by very narrow margins. 2020 will be the same, who ever wins. Will the people win?

If Democrats weren’t so easily offended and stopped telling me that trans girls are identical to biological girls then maybe we could have a civil discussion on how to better this country. Currently you and I can barely hold a civil discussion but you want the rest of the country to fall in line. Do explain how. Thanks.

I don’t think this is about anyone falling in line.

By fall in line I mean become civil toward one another.

 

[EvilCat Breath]

One thing to remember - the 60's happened.
Go back and look at old riot videos... look familiar? Yep.. buildings on fire...looting...cars on fire... huge protest marches and riots.
Then that leads us to the early 70s...and nothing was better. Then we had a President resign over cheating.
The country was VERY divided.
We got through it.
And here we are again.
Same thing.... riots...looting...huge protest etc. etc.
No matter who wins this election - we will lose. Neither side is going to accept the other.
2024 is what we can hope for, because by then Harris is President because either Biden is dead or his senility is so blatantly obvious that he resigns. And Harris will not win a primary. So at that point there will be two NEW candidates.
We can hope this has some calming effect.
Maybe

THAT - and we have GOT TO COME TOGETHER AND REJECT THE MAIN STREAM MEDIA.... both sides.
THEY PLAY A HUGE ROLE IN OUR DIVISIONS.

THOT Harris might not finish out her term. She is extremely lazy. Biden can't do anything. THOT won't do anything. The nation will be effectively leaderless. If the republicans do what they should the democrat communists will be stung with every step. Then slap the squad silly.

 

[Coyote]

What this election has told us, in multiple ways, is that our country has fundamentally changed and that breaks my heart.

The Republicans are entrenched. They are likely to retain control of the senate, added to their House, and retained state legislatures. They have the courts. They will control redistricting after the census and we can expect continued gerrymandering to further marginalize Democrat voting blocks, leading to more districts where a minority of the voters controls a majority of the seats. Not unique to Republicans, but increasingly utilized by them.

The Democrats have still, somehow missed the mark. Again. They can’t seem to get a message to the people that unifies. Maybe this is because Biden is not strong candidate, and Trump carries the power of the incumbency into the election. There are some bright spots, retaining seats in Texas, tight margins in some key red states.

If Trump wins, I see a further dismantling of our nation’s democratic infrastructure and a continued decline in our image and effectiveness abroad. I see complete politicization of our departments, from tiny VOA to DoJ, and entire civil service where personal loyalty is demanded over competency and professionalism. When Trump talks about reorganizing military leadership, is he attempting to politicize the military? I do not think this is hyperbole. We have been seeing this trend for four years, E.O. after E.O.

If Trump wins, and continues his assault on long established unwritten rules of behavior and social norms what will we see coming out of this? When society agrees to an unwritten set of norms and our leaders hold to it, our institutions function smoothly even with bumps and potholes. But when those potholes become so extreme they threaten the structure and people can no longer navigate, we are forced to create laws or rules we never thought would be needed. Example: media resorting to fact checking, because the volume of disinformation and political lies exceeds the ability of our society to handle, and it is coming from our leadership. I fear, if Trump is re-elected further attacks on truth, on facts, and on genuine journalism.

But Trump doesn’t need to win for this. It is already rolling down on us. If Biden wins, a huge segment of America voted for Trump. Huge! And that is dismaying and unsettling, to me, because I see this election as not about which candidate to elect, but as who we are as a country and who we want to be going forward.

If Biden wins, what, at best will happen? A rollback of EO’s? Competent people making decisions? Rebuilding the integrity and professionalism of our battered institutions: DoJ, State Department, EPA, CDC, VOA,....

If Trump wins, there is nothing to stop him from using his offfice to go after his “enemies“, every person who has ever criticized, spoken up, or gone against him and firing those who won’t do it. I think this, coming from the top of our leadership, is an existential crisis. If Biden wins....maybe the Republicans can create a better party, without Trump.

I read, somewhere, that an alarming number of people no longer feel democratic principles are so important, and that a strong (authoritarian) leader might even be preferred to the messiness and uncertainties of democratic systems. I'm trying to find links to this, because I wonder if it plays into sentiments driving our country today.

Trump won 2016 by very narrow margins. 2020 will be the same, who ever wins. Will the people win?

If Democrats weren’t so easily offended and stopped telling me that trans girls are identical to biological girls then maybe we could have a civil discussion on how to better this country. Currently you and I can barely hold a civil discussion but you want the rest of the country to fall in line. Do explain how. Thanks.

I don’t think this is about anyone falling in line.

By fall in line I mean become civil toward one another.

You and I HAVE held civil conversations. So...where does change start?

 

[AzogtheDefiler]

What this election has told us, in multiple ways, is that our country has fundamentally changed and that breaks my heart.

The Republicans are entrenched. They are likely to retain control of the senate, added to their House, and retained state legislatures. They have the courts. They will control redistricting after the census and we can expect continued gerrymandering to further marginalize Democrat voting blocks, leading to more districts where a minority of the voters controls a majority of the seats. Not unique to Republicans, but increasingly utilized by them.

The Democrats have still, somehow missed the mark. Again. They can’t seem to get a message to the people that unifies. Maybe this is because Biden is not strong candidate, and Trump carries the power of the incumbency into the election. There are some bright spots, retaining seats in Texas, tight margins in some key red states.

If Trump wins, I see a further dismantling of our nation’s democratic infrastructure and a continued decline in our image and effectiveness abroad. I see complete politicization of our departments, from tiny VOA to DoJ, and entire civil service where personal loyalty is demanded over competency and professionalism. When Trump talks about reorganizing military leadership, is he attempting to politicize the military? I do not think this is hyperbole. We have been seeing this trend for four years, E.O. after E.O.

If Trump wins, and continues his assault on long established unwritten rules of behavior and social norms what will we see coming out of this? When society agrees to an unwritten set of norms and our leaders hold to it, our institutions function smoothly even with bumps and potholes. But when those potholes become so extreme they threaten the structure and people can no longer navigate, we are forced to create laws or rules we never thought would be needed. Example: media resorting to fact checking, because the volume of disinformation and political lies exceeds the ability of our society to handle, and it is coming from our leadership. I fear, if Trump is re-elected further attacks on truth, on facts, and on genuine journalism.

But Trump doesn’t need to win for this. It is already rolling down on us. If Biden wins, a huge segment of America voted for Trump. Huge! And that is dismaying and unsettling, to me, because I see this election as not about which candidate to elect, but as who we are as a country and who we want to be going forward.

If Biden wins, what, at best will happen? A rollback of EO’s? Competent people making decisions? Rebuilding the integrity and professionalism of our battered institutions: DoJ, State Department, EPA, CDC, VOA,....

If Trump wins, there is nothing to stop him from using his offfice to go after his “enemies“, every person who has ever criticized, spoken up, or gone against him and firing those who won’t do it. I think this, coming from the top of our leadership, is an existential crisis. If Biden wins....maybe the Republicans can create a better party, without Trump.

I read, somewhere, that an alarming number of people no longer feel democratic principles are so important, and that a strong (authoritarian) leader might even be preferred to the messiness and uncertainties of democratic systems. I'm trying to find links to this, because I wonder if it plays into sentiments driving our country today.

Trump won 2016 by very narrow margins. 2020 will be the same, who ever wins. Will the people win?

If Democrats weren’t so easily offended and stopped telling me that trans girls are identical to biological girls then maybe we could have a civil discussion on how to better this country. Currently you and I can barely hold a civil discussion but you want the rest of the country to fall in line. Do explain how. Thanks.

I don’t think this is about anyone falling in line.

By fall in line I mean become civil toward one another.

You and I HAVE held civil conversations. So...where does change start?

It starts by taking people who disagree with you off ignore on this site. It starts with more listening and less talking. It starts with us trying our best not to be offensive but trying 10x harder not to be offended. Racial jokes are funny. Religious jokes are funny. Sex jokes are funny. Allow America to be funny again without feeling guilty about it. Lastly, it starts with the Left halting its divisive rhetoric that this country is systematically racist, was built on racism and taking down statues of our founding fathers.

 

[Zorro!]

What this election has told us, in multiple ways, is that our country has fundamentally changed and that breaks my heart.

The Republicans are entrenched. They are likely to retain control of the senate, added to their House, and retained state legislatures. They have the courts. They will control redistricting after the census and we can expect continued gerrymandering to further marginalize Democrat voting blocks, leading to more districts where a minority of the voters controls a majority of the seats. Not unique to Republicans, but increasingly utilized by them...

Trump's voters are clearly too large of a group to marginalized, demonized and dismissed. There is no majority for massive transformation of this nation, but, there is a majority, made up from both sides, that like our nation the way that is and are willing to continue the process of more perfectly securing all of our rights.

As for redistricting, take a look at this from the Cook Political Report,

Cook Partisan Voting Index - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The most extreme districts are Democrat, not Republican. (The List is sortable, click the arrow in the PVI clm). A D+34 district isn't an election, it's a beauty contest. Dems have 17 seats with this much margin or more. The GOP has zero D-34 seats. And look at what states they are from. Most of these districts were drawn by Democrats. Current districts are drawn in a manner that has produced two Democrat House majorities, so, it can't be that unfair of a process.

... The Democrats have still, somehow missed the mark. Again. They can’t seem to get a message to the people that unifies. Maybe this is because Biden is not strong candidate...

You don't think it could be the demonizing and name calling? Do you have any sense of just how tired Trump voters are of being called racists? Trump just pulled more non white voters than any republican in history, so, fewer minorities buy this tripe than ever before.

... If Trump wins, I see a further dismantling of our nation’s democratic infrastructure and a continued decline in our image and effectiveness abroad...

It looks to me like Biden is in the cat's seat.

... I see complete politicization of our departments, from tiny VOA to DoJ, and entire civil service where personal loyalty is demanded over competency and professionalism...

Well, I don't think Trump's going to take it, but, these are not independent agencies, they are part of the Administrative Branch and the President is the choice of the Electorate, if they can't support the choice of the Electorate, they should resign.

... When Trump talks about reorganizing military leadership, is he attempting to politicize the military? I do not think this is hyperbole. We have been seeing this trend for four years, E.O. after E.O...

I'm unaware of what you are referring to, please cite a few examples, I'm just unclear on your point.

... If Trump wins, and continues his assault on long established unwritten rules of behavior and social norms what will we see coming out of this? When society agrees to an unwritten set of norms and our leaders hold to it, our institutions function smoothly even with bumps and potholes...

At this point I would be thrilled if our institutions just followed the written rules, like you can't make up crap and launder them into illegal warrants to spy on your political opposition.

... media resorting to fact checking, because the volume of disinformation and political lies exceeds the ability of our society to handle, and it is coming from our leadership...

These would be the same lying bastards that hawked "Russian Collusion" for 4 years? Now they are going to censor the President of the United States based on their assessment of "exceeds the ability of our society to handle"? What a pile of crap. They are private companies, they can do what they want, but not with the current immunity they enjoy that was based on their claims of providing a politically neutral platform.

... I fear, if Trump is re-elected further attacks on truth, on facts, and on genuine journalism...

You don't find it ironic that it's not the media that is being censored, but Trump? If Trump was throwing warnings on stories like Twitter is, you would have a point, in fact you do have a point, you have just reversed the aggressor and the aggrieved. As Jonathon Turley observed, the solution to false information isn't censorship, but more information.

... But Trump doesn’t need to win for this. It is already rolling down on us. If Biden wins, a huge segment of America voted for Trump. Huge! And that is dismaying and unsettling, to me, because I see this election as not about which candidate to elect, but as who we are as a country and who we want to be going forward...

Always keep in mind that good, intelligent, well-meaning people can look at the same set of facts and come away with completely differing interpretations. That is not to be bemoaned, that is to be celebrated. None of us have the meta-truth, and by respecting one another, listening to one another, and fashioning workable solutions with each other, we all get to live in a prosperous society secured by ordered liberty. We all benefit from that; the weak, young and infirm absolutely depend on that kind of security that our joint cooperation furnishes.

... If Biden wins, what, at best will happen? A rollback of EO’s?...

Yes.

... Competent people making decisions? Rebuilding the integrity and professionalism of our battered institutions: DoJ, State Department,...

Our DOJ is still largely staffed by the folks that illegally spied on the Trump campaign, transition and administration with the State Department wholly involved in the unmasking effort. It's not at all clear to me why you regard them as institutions of integrity and professionalism. Not one person whistle-blew, not one resigned while the full power of the spy state was directed against a political opponent.

... and EPA, CDC, VOA,....

The EPA has done a great job, we have some of the cleanest air on the planet, but the CDC completely choked on the early COVID testing process when it was critical for detection and contact testing.

... If Trump wins, there is nothing to stop him from using his offfice to go after his “enemies“, every person who has ever criticized, spoken up, or gone against him and firing those who won’t do it...

We The People are the sovereign in this nation. We have no lords or ladies because no one has an inherent right to rule, all Federal Authority derives through the Electorate. In the Administrative Branch, the only elected person that wields power is the President, so, if you find yourself in the Administrative Branch, and you cannot support the choice of the Electorate, then you need to resign. And if you are deliberately working against the policies of the Choice of the Electorate, you need to be dealt with, you have no right to subvert the Electorate.

... I think this, coming from the top of our leadership, is an existential crisis. If Biden wins....maybe the Republicans can create a better party, without Trump...

How do you think Democrats could become a better party?

... Will the people win?

When we are free to choose our own leaders in free and fair elections, yes, we win. We are some of the most fortunate people on the face of the earth to have ever existed.

The preamble of our Constitution describes the forming of a "more perfect union for ourselves and our posterity". This is a baton that we take from those who went before us, that we will pass off to those that come after us. That is always the task at hand, sometimes we can make big strides, sometimes we have to be content with very small improvements, or even just holding our ground until a more opportune time.

It seems to me that winning an election is never as great as we imagine, and losing is never as bad as we fear. We are the longest surviving democracy on the face of the earth and I suspect that we will come through this just fine.

 

[SassyIrishLass]

What this election has told us, in multiple ways, is that our country has fundamentally changed and that breaks my heart.

The Republicans are entrenched. They are likely to retain control of the senate, added to their House, and retained state legislatures. They have the courts. They will control redistricting after the census and we can expect continued gerrymandering to further marginalize Democrat voting blocks, leading to more districts where a minority of the voters controls a majority of the seats. Not unique to Republicans, but increasingly utilized by them.

The Democrats have still, somehow missed the mark. Again. They can’t seem to get a message to the people that unifies. Maybe this is because Biden is not strong candidate, and Trump carries the power of the incumbency into the election. There are some bright spots, retaining seats in Texas, tight margins in some key red states.

If Trump wins, I see a further dismantling of our nation’s democratic infrastructure and a continued decline in our image and effectiveness abroad. I see complete politicization of our departments, from tiny VOA to DoJ, and entire civil service where personal loyalty is demanded over competency and professionalism. When Trump talks about reorganizing military leadership, is he attempting to politicize the military? I do not think this is hyperbole. We have been seeing this trend for four years, E.O. after E.O.

If Trump wins, and continues his assault on long established unwritten rules of behavior and social norms what will we see coming out of this? When society agrees to an unwritten set of norms and our leaders hold to it, our institutions function smoothly even with bumps and potholes. But when those potholes become so extreme they threaten the structure and people can no longer navigate, we are forced to create laws or rules we never thought would be needed. Example: media resorting to fact checking, because the volume of disinformation and political lies exceeds the ability of our society to handle, and it is coming from our leadership. I fear, if Trump is re-elected further attacks on truth, on facts, and on genuine journalism.

But Trump doesn’t need to win for this. It is already rolling down on us. If Biden wins, a huge segment of America voted for Trump. Huge! And that is dismaying and unsettling, to me, because I see this election as not about which candidate to elect, but as who we are as a country and who we want to be going forward.

If Biden wins, what, at best will happen? A rollback of EO’s? Competent people making decisions? Rebuilding the integrity and professionalism of our battered institutions: DoJ, State Department, EPA, CDC, VOA,....

If Trump wins, there is nothing to stop him from using his offfice to go after his “enemies“, every person who has ever criticized, spoken up, or gone against him and firing those who won’t do it. I think this, coming from the top of our leadership, is an existential crisis. If Biden wins....maybe the Republicans can create a better party, without Trump.

I read, somewhere, that an alarming number of people no longer feel democratic principles are so important, and that a strong (authoritarian) leader might even be preferred to the messiness and uncertainties of democratic systems. I'm trying to find links to this, because I wonder if it plays into sentiments driving our country today.

Trump won 2016 by very narrow margins. 2020 will be the same, who ever wins. Will the people win?

If Democrats weren’t so easily offended and stopped telling me that trans girls are identical to biological girls then maybe we could have a civil discussion on how to better this country. Currently you and I can barely hold a civil discussion but you want the rest of the country to fall in line. Do explain how. Thanks.

I don’t think this is about anyone falling in line.

By fall in line I mean become civil toward one another.

You and I HAVE held civil conversations. So...where does change start?

It starts by taking people who disagree with you off ignore on this site. It starts with more listening and less talking. It starts with us trying our best not to be offensive but trying 10x harder not to be offended. Racial jokes are funny. Religious jokes are funny. Sex jokes are funny. Allow America to be funny again without feeling guilty about it. Lastly, it starts with the Left halting its divisive rhetoric that this country is systematically racist, was built on racism and taking down statues of our founding fathers.

Good start but it's deeper than that

 

[Coyote]

What this election has told us, in multiple ways, is that our country has fundamentally changed and that breaks my heart.

The Republicans are entrenched. They are likely to retain control of the senate, added to their House, and retained state legislatures. They have the courts. They will control redistricting after the census and we can expect continued gerrymandering to further marginalize Democrat voting blocks, leading to more districts where a minority of the voters controls a majority of the seats. Not unique to Republicans, but increasingly utilized by them.

The Democrats have still, somehow missed the mark. Again. They can’t seem to get a message to the people that unifies. Maybe this is because Biden is not strong candidate, and Trump carries the power of the incumbency into the election. There are some bright spots, retaining seats in Texas, tight margins in some key red states.

If Trump wins, I see a further dismantling of our nation’s democratic infrastructure and a continued decline in our image and effectiveness abroad. I see complete politicization of our departments, from tiny VOA to DoJ, and entire civil service where personal loyalty is demanded over competency and professionalism. When Trump talks about reorganizing military leadership, is he attempting to politicize the military? I do not think this is hyperbole. We have been seeing this trend for four years, E.O. after E.O.

If Trump wins, and continues his assault on long established unwritten rules of behavior and social norms what will we see coming out of this? When society agrees to an unwritten set of norms and our leaders hold to it, our institutions function smoothly even with bumps and potholes. But when those potholes become so extreme they threaten the structure and people can no longer navigate, we are forced to create laws or rules we never thought would be needed. Example: media resorting to fact checking, because the volume of disinformation and political lies exceeds the ability of our society to handle, and it is coming from our leadership. I fear, if Trump is re-elected further attacks on truth, on facts, and on genuine journalism.

But Trump doesn’t need to win for this. It is already rolling down on us. If Biden wins, a huge segment of America voted for Trump. Huge! And that is dismaying and unsettling, to me, because I see this election as not about which candidate to elect, but as who we are as a country and who we want to be going forward.

If Biden wins, what, at best will happen? A rollback of EO’s? Competent people making decisions? Rebuilding the integrity and professionalism of our battered institutions: DoJ, State Department, EPA, CDC, VOA,....

If Trump wins, there is nothing to stop him from using his offfice to go after his “enemies“, every person who has ever criticized, spoken up, or gone against him and firing those who won’t do it. I think this, coming from the top of our leadership, is an existential crisis. If Biden wins....maybe the Republicans can create a better party, without Trump.

I read, somewhere, that an alarming number of people no longer feel democratic principles are so important, and that a strong (authoritarian) leader might even be preferred to the messiness and uncertainties of democratic systems. I'm trying to find links to this, because I wonder if it plays into sentiments driving our country today.

Trump won 2016 by very narrow margins. 2020 will be the same, who ever wins. Will the people win?

If Democrats weren’t so easily offended and stopped telling me that trans girls are identical to biological girls then maybe we could have a civil discussion on how to better this country. Currently you and I can barely hold a civil discussion but you want the rest of the country to fall in line. Do explain how. Thanks.

I don’t think this is about anyone falling in line.

By fall in line I mean become civil toward one another.

You and I HAVE held civil conversations. So...where does change start?

It starts by taking people who disagree with you off ignore on this site. It starts with more listening and less talking. It starts with us trying our best not to be offensive but trying 10x harder not to be offended. Racial jokes are funny. Religious jokes are funny. Sex jokes are funny. Allow America to be funny again without feeling guilty about it. Lastly, it starts with the Left halting its divisive rhetoric that this country is systematically racist, was built on racism and taking down statues of our founding fathers.

Again...I wish I had the “informative rating back.

We have gone from a society where we had a socially agreed upon code of behavior, called manners, that laid out how we were expected to behave - to a society where anything goes in the name of free speech, where we have a right to offend and by consequence a right to not be offended. I don’t know how you fix that.