Even if Biden wins, it doesn’t matter.

[CrusaderFrank]

The gulf is too wide between the ideologies.

Too many people on the Left believe that Fascism, Socialism and Communism can actually work this time. I'd support giving them free airfare to Venezuela

 

[Coyote]

I think you're overstating what this election says about the state of our society, and missing an obvious lesson. What Trump has shown us is just how susceptible we are to populism, especially when it's driven by an unscrupulous demagogue. This is why I always cringe at the modern liberal's worship of "democracy". Most voters are ignorant and easily fooled. We need less democracy, not more.

Less democracy? Really? Like what exactly?

To begin with, stop encouraging everyone to vote. People who are not well-informed shouldn't vote.

Many people are celebrating the fact we had such a high voter turnout this time. Yet this is the single most fucked up Presidential election in my lifetime. Do you think that's mere coincidence?

Beyond that, we need to understand that the "will of the people" isn't the same as the "will of the majority". Government that respects the will of the people, respects the will of ALL the people, not just the 51% who voted for the current leadership. It's this idea that the majority has a legitimate right to run roughshod over the will of the minority that drives the fear and anger currently undermining our society.

I don’t agree about not encouraging people to vote...but good post. Wish had “informative” back.

 

[Coyote]

I think you're overstating what this election says about the state of our society, and missing an obvious lesson. What Trump has shown us is just how susceptible we are to populism, especially when it's driven by an unscrupulous demagogue. This is why I always cringe at the modern liberal's worship of "democracy". Most voters are ignorant and easily fooled. We need less democracy, not more.

Less democracy? Really? Like what exactly?

What we need is more truth, which we ain't getting from just about everybody. IMHO what we need is a better educated populace in civics, which our kids ain't getting and many of us didn't either. And I think we need more tolerance, nobody should be fired for their opinion or denounced for offering a different view from someone else's.

Yes! I graduated high school in 77...have no kids. I don’t what they teach now, but my mother was saying very little history prior to the Civil War Is being taught. Is civics actually taught?

 

[CrusaderFrank]

The gulf is too wide between the ideologies.

Plus Joe Biden has already agreed to sell us out to the ChiComs

 

[Coyote]

The gulf is too wide between the ideologies.

Too many people on the Left believe that Fascism, Socialism and Communism can actually work this time. I'd support giving them free airfare to Venezuela

Fascism comes from the right in response to communism.

 

[BlackSand]

You hurt my feelings with nit-wit. They called Hermey a nit-wit, from the movie Rudolph, so shame on you.
Well, you did a very fine job your reply. You should run for politics.
So just to be perfectly clear, you see Canada as a greater threat than China or Russia ? - Yes or No ?

Again ... That's not what I posted.
I specifically posted that as long as we are divided in this country, and at war with each other ... The others are all equally dangerous.

Your inability to keep your eye on the ball and repair our own serious failures, is a perfect example of exactly what the problem is.
You would rather fight with me, or at least ask me stupid questions, than accept that only together will we ever get to where we need to be ...

.

 

[Coyote]

What this election has told us, in multiple ways, is that our country has fundamentally changed and that breaks my heart.

The Republicans are entrenched. They are likely to retain control of the senate, added to their House, and retained state legislatures. They have the courts. They will control redistricting after the census and we can expect continued gerrymandering to further marginalize Democrat voting blocks, leading to more districts where a minority of the voters controls a majority of the seats. Not unique to Republicans, but increasingly utilized by them.

The Democrats have still, somehow missed the mark. Again. They can’t seem to get a message to the people that unifies. Maybe this is because Biden is not strong candidate, and Trump carries the power of the incumbency into the election. There are some bright spots, retaining seats in Texas, tight margins in some key red states.

If Trump wins, I see a further dismantling of our nation’s democratic infrastructure and a continued decline in our image and effectiveness abroad. I see complete politicization of our departments, from tiny VOA to DoJ, and entire civil service where personal loyalty is demanded over competency and professionalism. When Trump talks about reorganizing military leadership, is he attempting to politicize the military? I do not think this is hyperbole. We have been seeing this trend for four years, E.O. after E.O.

If Trump wins, and continues his assault on long established unwritten rules of behavior and social norms what will we see coming out of this? When society agrees to an unwritten set of norms and our leaders hold to it, our institutions function smoothly even with bumps and potholes. But when those potholes become so extreme they threaten the structure and people can no longer navigate, we are forced to create laws or rules we never thought would be needed. Example: media resorting to fact checking, because the volume of disinformation and political lies exceeds the ability of our society to handle, and it is coming from our leadership. I fear, if Trump is re-elected further attacks on truth, on facts, and on genuine journalism.

But Trump doesn’t need to win for this. It is already rolling down on us. If Biden wins, a huge segment of America voted for Trump. Huge! And that is dismaying and unsettling, to me, because I see this election as not about which candidate to elect, but as who we are as a country and who we want to be going forward.

If Biden wins, what, at best will happen? A rollback of EO’s? Competent people making decisions? Rebuilding the integrity and professionalism of our battered institutions: DoJ, State Department, EPA, CDC, VOA,....

If Trump wins, there is nothing to stop him from using his offfice to go after his “enemies“, every person who has ever criticized, spoken up, or gone against him and firing those who won’t do it. I think this, coming from the top of our leadership, is an existential crisis. If Biden wins....maybe the Republicans can create a better party, without Trump.

I read, somewhere, that an alarming number of people no longer feel democratic principles are so important, and that a strong (authoritarian) leader might even be preferred to the messiness and uncertainties of democratic systems. I'm trying to find links to this, because I wonder if it plays into sentiments driving our country today.

Trump won 2016 by very narrow margins. 2020 will be the same, who ever wins. Will the people win?

Wait till you lose at least. Preemptive whining is unattractive

Oh STFU if can’t add something of substance. Your crap gets tiresome.

I think no matter who wins, it will be pyrric. Our country has fundamentally changed.

Go fuck yourself. YOU didn't even add a link in the forum that REQUIRES a link in the op.

Your feelings are irrelevant

Same to you. The forums do not require a link for opinion (you know, like 99% of the stuff you post). Let me know when the Antifa guy holding a gun to your and forcing you to read this thread let’s you go.

 

[Coyote]

What this election has told us, in multiple ways, is that our country has fundamentally changed and that breaks my heart.

The Republicans are entrenched. They are likely to retain control of the senate, added to their House, and retained state legislatures. They have the courts. They will control redistricting after the census and we can expect continued gerrymandering to further marginalize Democrat voting blocks, leading to more districts where a minority of the voters controls a majority of the seats. Not unique to Republicans, but increasingly utilized by them.

The Democrats have still, somehow missed the mark. Again. They can’t seem to get a message to the people that unifies. Maybe this is because Biden is not strong candidate, and Trump carries the power of the incumbency into the election. There are some bright spots, retaining seats in Texas, tight margins in some key red states.

If Trump wins, I see a further dismantling of our nation’s democratic infrastructure and a continued decline in our image and effectiveness abroad. I see complete politicization of our departments, from tiny VOA to DoJ, and entire civil service where personal loyalty is demanded over competency and professionalism. When Trump talks about reorganizing military leadership, is he attempting to politicize the military? I do not think this is hyperbole. We have been seeing this trend for four years, E.O. after E.O.

If Trump wins, and continues his assault on long established unwritten rules of behavior and social norms what will we see coming out of this? When society agrees to an unwritten set of norms and our leaders hold to it, our institutions function smoothly even with bumps and potholes. But when those potholes become so extreme they threaten the structure and people can no longer navigate, we are forced to create laws or rules we never thought would be needed. Example: media resorting to fact checking, because the volume of disinformation and political lies exceeds the ability of our society to handle, and it is coming from our leadership. I fear, if Trump is re-elected further attacks on truth, on facts, and on genuine journalism.

But Trump doesn’t need to win for this. It is already rolling down on us. If Biden wins, a huge segment of America voted for Trump. Huge! And that is dismaying and unsettling, to me, because I see this election as not about which candidate to elect, but as who we are as a country and who we want to be going forward.

If Biden wins, what, at best will happen? A rollback of EO’s? Competent people making decisions? Rebuilding the integrity and professionalism of our battered institutions: DoJ, State Department, EPA, CDC, VOA,....

If Trump wins, there is nothing to stop him from using his offfice to go after his “enemies“, every person who has ever criticized, spoken up, or gone against him and firing those who won’t do it. I think this, coming from the top of our leadership, is an existential crisis. If Biden wins....maybe the Republicans can create a better party, without Trump.

I read, somewhere, that an alarming number of people no longer feel democratic principles are so important, and that a strong (authoritarian) leader might even be preferred to the messiness and uncertainties of democratic systems. I'm trying to find links to this, because I wonder if it plays into sentiments driving our country today.

Trump won 2016 by very narrow margins. 2020 will be the same, who ever wins. Will the people win?

View attachment 411707


It's you commies that were proposing fundamentally changing the system. You're the ones advocating a tyranny of the majority. So FOAD.

.

Commie commie commie.

That's all you can come up with.

Yep, you're a typical commie, you deflect instead of addressing what I said.

.

When you start with “you commies” you have already indicated a depth of ignorance that makes answering a serious a waste of time. Want a serious answer? Consider how you frame your statements.

 

[LoneLaugher]

Every problem discussed here would be solved if we began to value education and critical thinking skills. Then as Hannah Arendt tells us, we’d collectively work toward what is in the best interests of ourselves AND others.

When OANN is considered to be a viable member of the 4th estate by the leader of the free world, we have a long way to go.

 

[BlackSand]

Yes! I graduated high school in 77...have no kids. I don’t what they teach now, but my mother was saying very little history prior to the Civil War Is being taught. Is civics actually taught?

When I was going to school. 8th Grade History was State History, and 9th Grade History was Civics ... And a whole year of each.

.

 

[Coyote]

Yes! I graduated high school in 77...have no kids. I don’t what they teach now, but my mother was saying very little history prior to the Civil War Is being taught. Is civics actually taught?

When I was going to school. 8th Grade History was State History, and 9th Grade History was Civics ... And a whole year of each.

.

Sounds like I remember as well.

 

[Dogbiscuit]

You hurt my feelings with nit-wit. They called Hermey a nit-wit, from the movie Rudolph, so shame on you.
Well, you did a very fine job your reply. You should run for politics.
So just to be perfectly clear, you see Canada as a greater threat than China or Russia ? - Yes or No ?

Again ... That's not what I posted.
I specifically posted that as long as we are divided in this country, and at war with each other ... The others are all equally dangerous.

Your inability to keep your eye on the ball and repair our own serious failures, is a perfect example of exactly what the problem is.
You would rather fight with me, or at least ask me stupid questions, than accept that only together will we ever get to where we need to be ...

.

You say you desire unity, yet you call me a nit-wit, and then say, I ask stupid questions.
So this is your way to unify ?...Sad, so sad.
And all I did was ask a legitimate and simple question, in reference to the topic of this thread mind you, that both you and your dear friend avoided.

 

[task0778]

I think you're overstating what this election says about the state of our society, and missing an obvious lesson. What Trump has shown us is just how susceptible we are to populism, especially when it's driven by an unscrupulous demagogue. This is why I always cringe at the modern liberal's worship of "democracy". Most voters are ignorant and easily fooled. We need less democracy, not more.

Less democracy? Really? Like what exactly?

What we need is more truth, which we ain't getting from just about everybody. IMHO what we need is a better educated populace in civics, which our kids ain't getting and many of us didn't either. And I think we need more tolerance, nobody should be fired for their opinion or denounced for offering a different view from someone else's.

Yes! I graduated high school in 77...have no kids. I don’t what they teach now, but my mother was saying very little history prior to the Civil War Is being taught. Is civics actually taught?

FYI:

1. Only nine states and the District of Columbia require one year of U.S. government or civics. Thirty-one states only require a half-year of civics or U.S. government education, and 10 states have no civics requirement.* ** While federal education policy has focused on improving academic achievement in reading and math, this has come at the expense of a broader curriculum. Most states have dedicated insufficient class time to understanding the basic functions of government at the expense of other courses.

The State of Civics Education

Civic education must be comprehensive and engaging to prepare the next generation to be knowledgeable and active leaders.

www.americanprogress.org

 

[Coyote]

The Democrats have still, somehow missed the mark. Again.

Coyote, you're one of the few Demcorats that I honestly respect and feel like I can have a good conversation with.

maybe because I'm not a Democrat? I'm not registered with any party.

Dude...I’m not “registered” with any party either. But you and I both know I’m a “Republican”. And we both know that you are a “Demcorat”.

The Dems align with my interests more than the Republicans. That is true

 

[Wyatt earp]

What this election has told us, in multiple ways, is that our country has fundamentally changed and that breaks my heart.

The Republicans are entrenched. They are likely to retain control of the senate, added to their House, and retained state legislatures. They have the courts. They will control redistricting after the census and we can expect continued gerrymandering to further marginalize Democrat voting blocks, leading to more districts where a minority of the voters controls a majority of the seats. Not unique to Republicans, but increasingly utilized by them.

The Democrats have still, somehow missed the mark. Again. They can’t seem to get a message to the people that unifies. Maybe this is because Biden is not strong candidate, and Trump carries the power of the incumbency into the election. There are some bright spots, retaining seats in Texas, tight margins in some key red states.

If Trump wins, I see a further dismantling of our nation’s democratic infrastructure and a continued decline in our image and effectiveness abroad. I see complete politicization of our departments, from tiny VOA to DoJ, and entire civil service where personal loyalty is demanded over competency and professionalism. When Trump talks about reorganizing military leadership, is he attempting to politicize the military? I do not think this is hyperbole. We have been seeing this trend for four years, E.O. after E.O.

If Trump wins, and continues his assault on long established unwritten rules of behavior and social norms what will we see coming out of this? When society agrees to an unwritten set of norms and our leaders hold to it, our institutions function smoothly even with bumps and potholes. But when those potholes become so extreme they threaten the structure and people can no longer navigate, we are forced to create laws or rules we never thought would be needed. Example: media resorting to fact checking, because the volume of disinformation and political lies exceeds the ability of our society to handle, and it is coming from our leadership. I fear, if Trump is re-elected further attacks on truth, on facts, and on genuine journalism.

But Trump doesn’t need to win for this. It is already rolling down on us. If Biden wins, a huge segment of America voted for Trump. Huge! And that is dismaying and unsettling, to me, because I see this election as not about which candidate to elect, but as who we are as a country and who we want to be going forward.

If Biden wins, what, at best will happen? A rollback of EO’s? Competent people making decisions? Rebuilding the integrity and professionalism of our battered institutions: DoJ, State Department, EPA, CDC, VOA,....

If Trump wins, there is nothing to stop him from using his offfice to go after his “enemies“, every person who has ever criticized, spoken up, or gone against him and firing those who won’t do it. I think this, coming from the top of our leadership, is an existential crisis. If Biden wins....maybe the Republicans can create a better party, without Trump.

I read, somewhere, that an alarming number of people no longer feel democratic principles are so important, and that a strong (authoritarian) leader might even be preferred to the messiness and uncertainties of democratic systems. I'm trying to find links to this, because I wonder if it plays into sentiments driving our country today.

Trump won 2016 by very narrow margins. 2020 will be the same, who ever wins. Will the people win?

Wait till you lose at least. Preemptive whining is unattractive

Oh STFU if can’t add something of substance. Your crap gets tiresome.

I think no matter who wins, it will be pyrric. Our country has fundamentally changed.

Go fuck yourself. YOU didn't even add a link in the forum that REQUIRES a link in the op.

Your feelings are irrelevant

Same to you. The forums do not require a link for opinion (you know, like 99% of the stuff you post). Let me know when the Antifa guy holding a gun to your and forcing you to read this thread let’s you go.

Can you speak freely @ berkeley?

 

[skews13]

What this election has told us, in multiple ways, is that our country has fundamentally changed and that breaks my heart.

The Republicans are entrenched. They are likely to retain control of the senate, added to their House, and retained state legislatures. They have the courts. They will control redistricting after the census and we can expect continued gerrymandering to further marginalize Democrat voting blocks, leading to more districts where a minority of the voters controls a majority of the seats. Not unique to Republicans, but increasingly utilized by them.

The Democrats have still, somehow missed the mark. Again. They can’t seem to get a message to the people that unifies. Maybe this is because Biden is not strong candidate, and Trump carries the power of the incumbency into the election. There are some bright spots, retaining seats in Texas, tight margins in some key red states.

If Trump wins, I see a further dismantling of our nation’s democratic infrastructure and a continued decline in our image and effectiveness abroad. I see complete politicization of our departments, from tiny VOA to DoJ, and entire civil service where personal loyalty is demanded over competency and professionalism. When Trump talks about reorganizing military leadership, is he attempting to politicize the military? I do not think this is hyperbole. We have been seeing this trend for four years, E.O. after E.O.

If Trump wins, and continues his assault on long established unwritten rules of behavior and social norms what will we see coming out of this? When society agrees to an unwritten set of norms and our leaders hold to it, our institutions function smoothly even with bumps and potholes. But when those potholes become so extreme they threaten the structure and people can no longer navigate, we are forced to create laws or rules we never thought would be needed. Example: media resorting to fact checking, because the volume of disinformation and political lies exceeds the ability of our society to handle, and it is coming from our leadership. I fear, if Trump is re-elected further attacks on truth, on facts, and on genuine journalism.

But Trump doesn’t need to win for this. It is already rolling down on us. If Biden wins, a huge segment of America voted for Trump. Huge! And that is dismaying and unsettling, to me, because I see this election as not about which candidate to elect, but as who we are as a country and who we want to be going forward.

If Biden wins, what, at best will happen? A rollback of EO’s? Competent people making decisions? Rebuilding the integrity and professionalism of our battered institutions: DoJ, State Department, EPA, CDC, VOA,....

If Trump wins, there is nothing to stop him from using his offfice to go after his “enemies“, every person who has ever criticized, spoken up, or gone against him and firing those who won’t do it. I think this, coming from the top of our leadership, is an existential crisis. If Biden wins....maybe the Republicans can create a better party, without Trump.

I read, somewhere, that an alarming number of people no longer feel democratic principles are so important, and that a strong (authoritarian) leader might even be preferred to the messiness and uncertainties of democratic systems. I'm trying to find links to this, because I wonder if it plays into sentiments driving our country today.

Trump won 2016 by very narrow margins. 2020 will be the same, who ever wins. Will the people win?

It's no mystery. Democrats are apologetically Progressive. Republicans are unapologetically Conservative.

Bernie Sanders, Elizabeth Warren, as well as Progressive pundits like Thom Hartmann, James Carville, have been trying to tell us this for years, but the party remains stuck in the middle.

It's why millions of former Obama voters, voted for Trump in 2016.

Until the Democratic base figures out that the party must be purged of centrist, milquetoast corporate Dems, that isn't going to change.

Voters don't want nice. They want fighters.

I was going to post this. This is a good place for it.

Trump should have lost in a landslide. The fact that he didnât speaks volumes | Nathan Robinson

Blaming the voters simply will not do. This is a failure of leadership. Those responsible for it need to be held accountable

www.theguardian.com

 

[task0778]

The gulf is too wide between the ideologies.

Too many people on the Left believe that Fascism, Socialism and Communism can actually work this time. I'd support giving them free airfare to Venezuela

Fascism comes from the right in response to communism.

Hard to square that with the fact that FASCISM is essentially about total gov't control, which the right is against. Today's Left would seem to be more fascist, no?

 

[CrusaderFrank]

The gulf is too wide between the ideologies.

Too many people on the Left believe that Fascism, Socialism and Communism can actually work this time. I'd support giving them free airfare to Venezuela

Fascism comes from the right in response to communism.

Number of times Coyote spoke out against Big Tech Fascists banning Conservatives: 0

 

[Mac1958]

The gulf is too wide between the ideologies.

That only matters to ideologues.

The rest of the country -- the majority -- would rather see the ideologues get over themselves, drop the bullshit and start working together.

Unfortunately, the ideologues are much angrier and louder and therefore get most of the attention.

 

[Coyote]

We're not that divided if you get rid of the cults of personality. On issues, Americans are somewhat congruent.

I laugh

I think GT makes a good point. We're driven into opposite corners by a flawed election process that radicalizes the division.

We take ourselves different directions because we want different things.

At one point we all wanted the USA to be better every day, we simply had different ideas on how to get there.

Now, one side wants the US to be great,
the other side wants to gut it and start over.

Hard to compromise those two positions.

The point is, the two sides have been driven into diametrically opposed positions because of our election system. Our system encourages radicalized opposition

The gulf is too wide between the ideologies.

Too many people on the Left believe that Fascism, Socialism and Communism can actually work this time. I'd support giving them free airfare to Venezuela

Fascism comes from the right in response to communism.

Hard to square that with the fact that FASCISM is essentially about total gov't control, which the right is against. Today's Left would seem to be more fascist, no?

Left and right isn’t totally defined by government control, there are a number of different factors and overlap, especially at the extremes.