Evidence for Design #1 - Complexity, irreducible and otherwise

[alang1216]

What came before the laws of nature?

I don't know if anything came before the laws of nature. They could well be the eternal thing you're looking for.

 

[alang1216]

Which proves my point that everything is made manifest by mind.

You can claim whatever victory you wish but that doesn't make it so. Only our personal perceptions require mind. If you were never born I'd still be writing something similar to this just to someone else, you'd just never be aware of it. No offense but my existence would be little different without you in the world.

 

[ding]

I don't know if anything came before the laws of nature. They could well be the eternal thing you're looking for.

Or attributes of it. After all... it is the nature of intelligence to create intelligence.

 

[ding]

You can claim whatever victory you wish but that doesn't make it so. Only our personal perceptions require mind. If you were never born I'd still be writing something similar to this just to someone else, you'd just never be aware of it. No offense but my existence would be little different without you in the world.

Your post that the cat knows the outcome proved my point. Mind, rather than being a late outgrowth of the evolution of space and time has existed always as the source or matrix of the physical world. It's not a coincidence that the universe popped into existence being hardwired to produce life and intelligence.

 

[alang1216]

Or attributes of it. After all... it is the nature of intelligence to create intelligence.

But not all intelligence is created by a previous intelligence. There must be a beginning of intelligence and we are the beginning, at least in our neighborhood. The universe has no innate intelligence to create other intelligences.

 

[abu afak]

I don't know if anything came before the laws of nature. They could well be the eternal thing you're looking for.

Ding thinks not [yet] knowing a natural explanation is proof/license for his brand of I-D/god.
He would have believed in the Fire, Lightning and fertility gods too or similarly made up his own. Utterly unbound by any reason the old fallacious 'god of the gaps' has enabled him to fantasize his own designer planet/universe/god, replete with (only) positive character attributes (11) he says are also god.
Kind of like a positive Jim Jonestown cult and even more elaborate.
`

 

[alang1216]

Your post that the cat knows the outcome proved my point.

If the cat was dead, where does mind come into it?

Mind, rather than being a late outgrowth of the evolution of space and time has existed always as the source or matrix of the physical world.

You're welcome to your opinion and your faith but don't expect me to take your word for it.

It's not a coincidence that the universe popped into existence being hardwired to produce life and intelligence.

Is there a control universe I don't know about? One where the universe was not able to produce life? If it took 14 billion years to produce intelligence, that seems like a random accident to me.

 

[ding]

But not all intelligence is created by a previous intelligence. There must be a beginning of intelligence and we are the beginning, at least in our neighborhood. The universe has no innate intelligence to create other intelligences.

Intelligence has always existed as the source or matrix of the physical world. Existence cannot come from non-existence. It's not a coincidence that the universe popped into existence being hardwired to produce life and intelligence. This is a life‑breeding universe because the constant presence of mind made it so.

 

[ding]

Ding thinks not [yet] knowing a natural explanation is proof/license for his brand of I-D/god.
He would have believed in the Fire, Lightning and fertility gods too or similarly made up his own. Utterly unbound by any reason 'god of the gaps' has enabled him to fantasize his own designer planet/universe/god, replete with (only) positive character attributes (11) he says are also god.
Kind of like a positive Jim Jonestown cult and even more elaborate.
`

Make it about me all you want. It's not a coincidence that the universe popped into existence being hardwired to produce life and intelligence.

 

[ding]

If the cat was dead, where does mind come into it?


You're welcome to your opinion and your faith but don't expect me to take your word for it.


Is there a control universe I don't know about? One where the universe was not able to produce life? If it took 14 billion years to produce intelligence, that seems like a random accident to me.

We live in a logical universe governed by rules, laws and information. Rules laws and information are a signs of intelligence.

The definition of reason is a cause, explanation, or justification for an action or event. The definition of purpose is the reason for which something is done or created or for which something exists. The consequence of a logical universe is that every cause has an effect. Which means that everything happens for a reason and serves a purpose. The very nature of our physical laws point to reason and purpose.

It's not a coincidence that the universe popped into existence being hardwired to produce life and intelligence. This is a life‑breeding universe because the constant presence of mind made it so.

 

[alang1216]

Intelligence has always existed as the source or matrix of the physical world.

What are you defining as intelligence?

Existence cannot come from non-existence. It's not a coincidence that the universe popped into existence being hardwired to produce life and intelligence. This is a life‑breeding universe because the constant presence of mind made it so.

You state things as facts that are only a product of your (and everyone's) ignorance.

 

[alang1216]

We live in a logical universe governed by rules, laws and information. Rules laws and information are a signs of intelligence.

Man's rules and laws maybe, but natural laws? No evidence to support it.

The definition of reason is a cause, explanation, or justification for an action or event.

You can not define gravity as 'reason'. Things are attracted to mass.

 

[ding]

What are you defining as intelligence?


You state things as facts that are only a product of your (and everyone's) ignorance.

The short answer is intelligence is the ability to comprehend abstract concepts.

I state logical facts which are based upon reason and experience. If you wait to know everything you will live your life knowing nothing. So as a matter of practicality it's like a game of king of the hill.

 

[ding]

Man's rules and laws maybe, but natural laws? No evidence to support it.


You can not define gravity as 'reason'. Things are attracted to mass.

Cause and effect support it. You do believe in cause and effect, right?

Actually gravity is a consequence of space and time being warped. Things aren't attracted to mass.

 

[ding]

You can not define gravity as 'reason'.

Good thing that wasn't what I was talking about. The phrase reason and experience refers to logic and evidence which often times is through a proxy.

 

[alang1216]

The short answer is intelligence is the ability to comprehend abstract concepts.

So you think the universe is able to comprehend abstract concepts?

I state logical facts which are based upon reason and experience. If you wait to know everything you will live your life knowing nothing. So as a matter of practicality it's like a game of king of the hill.

It's like I said at the very beginning, the intelligence was not on Mars but here on Earth.

 

[alang1216]

Cause and effect support it. You do believe in cause and effect, right?

No, cause and effect do NOT support intelligence, just the opposite. There is no intelligence associated with gravity, there are no exceptions.

Actually gravity is a consequence of space and time being warped. Things aren't attracted to mass.

View attachment 601103

A distinction without a difference and not at all relevant to the topic.

 

[ding]

So you think the universe is able to comprehend abstract concepts?


It's like I said at the very beginning, the intelligence was not on Mars but here on Earth.

As near as I can tell the universe is effectively an intelligence producing machine. Our universe is a perfect example of what is logically required to produce intelligence from nothing. I don't go any further than that because I don't have information which would allow me to go any further than that. Logically you know what something is designed for by what it produces. Intelligence is the most advanced thing that the evolution of space and time has produced. I don't go any further than that because I don't have information which would allow me to go any further than that. It would be illogical to not evaluate what I do know because the universe might be something more than an intelligence producing machine or that there might be something beyond intelligence. So until I have information that shows something different, these are the logical facts as I know them today.

So... no, I don't believe the universe is able to comprehend abstract concepts. I believe the universe is an intelligence producing machine because that's what the evidence shows.

I limit my belief that consciousness - call it God or matrix or whatever word you want - has always existed and is the source of the physical world. Such that this consciousness is literally existence itself. God isn't a noun. God is a verb. It's your perception of God that is flawed.

 

[alang1216]

Good thing that wasn't what I was talking about. The phrase reason and experience refers to logic and evidence which often times is through a proxy.

So who or what is the proxy for natural laws like gravity?

 

[alang1216]

Logically you know what something is designed for by what it produces.

Designed is a VERY big assumption and you seem to start with that and work backwards.

So... no, I don't believe the universe is able to comprehend abstract concepts. I believe the universe is an intelligence producing machine because that's what the evidence shows.

Our universe has produced intelligence, such as it is. Are clouds a rain producing machine? Did the rain design the clouds?

It's your perception of God that is flawed.

Odd that I've never encountered your perception of God from anyone else. Is there a religion out there that I'm not familiar with?