Evidence of Incitement

[Whodatsaywhodat.]

View attachment 439269

I agree that those who incited were acting out for an unacceptable reason.

Oh, you left out Trump's inciteful remarks, a picture of the mob in action, and a picture of the 4 dead people. I do agree with you, but just don't give sound bites.
Keep in mind that the ballots in those swing states were recounted ad nausea and no fraud was detected.

Some fraud was but not enough to overturn the results. The optics look bad. Mail in votes, which are more difficult to audit (not absentee ballots) lean heavily Democrat. Don't care about this election anymore. Its done. But future ones need to be more transparent.

Mail-in votes and absentee ballots is distinction without a difference. And the reason why they lean more Democratic because Trump ranted against them and in general Democrats are wearier about the pandemic.

As to transparency. I'm interested to know what you mean by that. There are not one but several safeguards in place for both mail-in votes and in-person votes. Both parties have people at the ballot places to monitor the elections. In most places where they count you can literally go online and watch them do it. When there are disputes recounts can be asked for and there are thousands of lawyers on both sides. What do you want exactly to make it more transparent?

I'm also interested to know where you get the idea that they are more difficult to audit?

Lastly... optics???? Not for nothing, we just saw a mob stopping the business of governing in an attempt to perform a coup ( not hyperbole but the only right description of breaking into the Capitol to stop the verification of the election results), as a direct result of the current President of the United States claiming the future one is illegitimate and asking the mob to march on the Capitol. As far as optics go, I can't think of much worse.

#1) Absentee ballots are requested. So if I request a ballot it is one thing if one is sent to me and my wife without a request and someone else can grab it, it is another thing.

#2) Poll watchers could not see very well what was happening as I understand it and there are questions of ballot harvesting, ballot dumping, dead people voting, etc. When I vote in person I give my address, they then check my name off and give me a reference tag. I then upload by ballot via a machine. To me that is very straightforward and I also see that my ballot was processed. If someone steals mail in ballots and fills them out for me and my wife or I do so for my wife then there are no true checks and balances. Say I live with my parents and my wife. They are agnostic and don't vote. I receive four unsolicited ballots. I fill all four out for my candidate. My wife and parents either don't know or care and now instead of one vote, my vote counts as four. How do we police that?

#3) It is the Capital and the mob is angry because of the media. You watch CNN and you see a completely different reality from that of Fox. Traditional and Social media both have divided this country. This board is another example. We are at each others throats. BLM protests were not mostly peaceful and 19 people died. The police have been hamstrung and could not do much vs. BLM nor much vs. the Capital uprising. People are angry and I blame the media.

#1) Again a distinction without a difference. The principle is exactly the same. You send in your vote by mail. It's interesting though that too you putting up barriers to voting is considered making voting better. I understand it from a partisan standpoint but it makes the argument that you want elections to be fair ring hollow. The fairest election you can possibly have is the one that has all eligible voters cast their vote and the person who gets the most be declared the winner. I'm willing to grant that the constitution provides an impediment for the second one but you also object to the first.

#2)If you have things to contest fine. All the things that you are claiming happened have either been rejected by the courts or have simply not been asserted to the courts. I've actually read some of the rulings. It wasn't even close. To me, it says something that people make grand claims in places that carry no penalty for lying to then either tone down their claims to a fraction or not assert it all.

3#) Oh, so as long as a mob is angry, whatever they do can be forgiven, including making a coup attempt? Not for nothing Azog but that argument is not a little bit weird not to mention ironic since a few months ago we had an argument where you were blaming me for not convicting riots although I did not one time but several times in the OP and the Democrats as a whole although every single politician clearly condemned the violence. As to whom you blame, the media bears responsibility, although I personally am very careful before I accept anything from any media. That's why I try to see primary sources and am allergic to people both left and right who don't even try to nuance stuff. Having said that, leaving out the person who clearly was the reason for the crowd being so mad by both propagating and directing their anger at other people and simply blaming it on the media seems not credulous. To put it bluntly, Charles Manson didn't kill anybody but that didn't make him any less responsible for what happened.

You didn't address my point so let us do it concretely. If the state sends me four blank voting envelopes. What stops me from filling out all four vs. just mine? Especially if my wife and parents don't know nor care. It is different if I REQUEST mine and they request theirs.

Address this specific example.

And they didn't condemn the violence. Seattle Mayor said it was the summer of love. Nadler called it a myth. Fredo Cuomo asked who said protests have to be peaceful. CNN called them mostly peaceful. Disgraceful.

Sure. First, your parents live with you? Ballots are sent by address. Second, you need to forge their signature, when in doubt election officials can and do call, better hope they don't reach them. Third, congratulations you just committed a felony in order to swing a grand total of TWO votes. Seems a bit risky. Fourth, the chances that that happened presupposes that every person who had their votes stolen either didn't find out or decided to cover for the felon since few actual examples of this happening on any scale are being alleged.

So now please answer my counterarguments.

#1) In my example they do.
#2) They are my wife and parents they would say sure and I doubt the FBI would call.
#3) Felony if you get caught and its tough to catch.
#4) Multiply that example by thousands.

In swing states elections can be divided by thousands or even hundreds. Ask John James. To me mail in ballots are a terrible idea. Absentee ballots, no issue at all.

I'll just answer 2 and 4. Signatures are checked by computer and flagged to be then checked, so yes not the FBI but election officials DO call. And if I multiply it by the thousands the chances that every single parent/sibling/offspring is willing to silently have their votes stolen, especially this day and age is essentially nil. Proof would have been found.

So you have seen the signatures? LOL. You trust the computers? To me it looks fishy that most of the mail in ballots lean Democrat. I find it fishy that BOTH sides garnered so many more votes while the Libertarian candidate garnered 3 mil fewer votes. I find it impossible that the officials check every signature with a computer. I find it odd when nursing homes have thousands of ballots suddenly. Easy to forge those signatures. So let's not pretend that the risk of fraud is not greater than if we all had either in person voting or REQUESTED ballots.

If we cannot agree there then we need to drop this and agree to disagree. To me the RISK of fraud is higher. Doesn't mean there was fraud but I am highly suspicious.

Be suspicious all you want, although I'll say now your suspicions don't seem to be not moored in anything concrete or are easily explained if you are willing to think things through. Libertarians have so much fewer votes for instance because Trump has been so divisive that he nearly eliminated the third party vote. You are for or against there is no middle ground.

So you have called me out because I didn't address your hypothetical. I have done you the courtesy of spending 3 posts on what is the least consequential of your arguments. Can you do me the courtesy of trying to rebut the points I made?

Nope. You still have yet to address the fact that the risk of fraud is significantly higher with mail in ballots. The Libertarian candidate received 3mil fewer votes when compared to 2016. Hard to swallow and Trump who as you say is divisive and a villain received 74.2 million votes. Something is rotten in Denmark. I believe there is fraud on both sides and the whole voting landscape needs to be revamped.

What points would you like me to address? Give me a specific example and I will happily address it.

I have addressed that claim. Again. Between rotty relationships between parents/siblings/offspring/significant other. The chance that there was massive fraud with mail-in ballots without any instance of it coming out that I'm aware of is nil. Show me any case presented in the sixty or so claims that assert it and I'll take it seriously. Until then you are simply giving an opinion without a good justification.

Why is it hard to swallow. Be honest have you ever talked about politics as much as in the last four years? I haven't and that's true for most anybody I know. More interest, more participation. Doesn't seem hard to swallow. Here are my points.

#1) Again a distinction without a difference. The principle is exactly the same. You send in your vote by mail. It's interesting though that too you putting up barriers to voting is considered making voting better. I understand it from a partisan standpoint but it makes the argument that you want elections to be fair ring hollow. The fairest election you can possibly have is the one that has all eligible voters cast their vote and the person who gets the most be declared the winner. I'm willing to grant that the constitution provides an impediment for the second one but you also object to the first.

#2)If you have things to contest fine. All the things that you are claiming happened have either been rejected by the courts or have simply not been asserted to the courts. I've actually read some of the rulings. It wasn't even close. To me, it says something that people make grand claims in places that carry no penalty for lying to then either tone down their claims to a fraction or not assert it all.

3#) Oh, so as long as a mob is angry, whatever they do can be forgiven, including making a coup attempt? Not for nothing Azog but that argument is not a little bit weird not to mention ironic since a few months ago we had an argument where you were blaming me for not convicting riots although I did not one time but several times in the OP and the Democrats as a whole although every single politician clearly condemned the violence. As to whom you blame, the media bears responsibility, although I personally am very careful before I accept anything from any media. That's why I try to see primary sources and am allergic to people both left and right who don't even try to nuance stuff. Having said that, leaving out the person who clearly was the reason for the crowd being so mad by both propagating and directing their anger at other people and simply blaming it on the media seems not credulous. To put it bluntly, Charles Manson didn't kill anybody but that didn't make him any less responsible for what happened.

I never Cared about politics til my kids hit middle school (2018) and I noticed all the PC crap. You conflating Manson with Trump is laughable. And Trump was not the cause but the effect. That’s why he won in 2016.

What points would you like me to address? Give me a specific example and I will happily address it.

So much for that.

OK...so you won’t give me a specific example to address? I did it with you. Lol

I've distilled it some more for you. These are 4 distinct points I made I want you to adress.

The fairest election you can possibly have is the one that has all eligible voters cast their vote and the person who gets the most be declared the winner. I'm willing to grant that the constitution provides an impediment for the second one but you also object to the first.

If you have things to contest fine. All the things that you are claiming happened have either been rejected by the courts or have simply not been asserted to the courts.

so as long as a mob is angry, whatever they do can be forgiven, including making a coup attempt?

leaving out the person who clearly was the reason for the crowd being so mad by both propagating and directing their anger at other people and simply blaming it on the media seems not credulous. To put it bluntly, Charles Manson didn't kill anybody but that didn't make him any less responsible for what happened.

By the way I didn't compare Trump to Charles Manson. I engaged in a Reductio in Absurdum. What I'm saying is that it's absurd to try to not hold Trump responsible because he didn't personally engage in the riots. The fact that it was because of him and under his direction that it happened is enough to hold him responsible.

You’re making statements. Where is the question? To me I think mail in voting is subject to significant fraud. You disagree. And you did compare Trump to Manson for all intents and purposes. Trump didn’t brainwash young impressionable kids to kill. He got 74.2mil votes and many see him and not getting fair treatment from the media, both traditional and social. Our media is corrupt as hell.

Either Trump is lying or the courts aren’t interested but again to me and I am a logical human as I see it, mail in voting is subject to fraud.

Lastly, you see Trump as the cause of all this discord. I see him as the effect. And for your question. I would Have shot every single one of the “mob” once they started committing crimes. You shoot the first 50 and the rest with disperse.

But wait , check it out.

The Wentworth Report

wentworthreport.com

 

[AzogtheDefiler]

I am glad I am in your head. I nothing you. Meaning you’re too worthless to even dislike.

Yet here you are, getting worked up...

Nope. Just because you say it doesn't make it so. You're like 60 and you still don't know that. Amazing.

 

[AzogtheDefiler]

View attachment 439269

I agree that those who incited were acting out for an unacceptable reason.

Oh, you left out Trump's inciteful remarks, a picture of the mob in action, and a picture of the 4 dead people. I do agree with you, but just don't give sound bites.
Keep in mind that the ballots in those swing states were recounted ad nausea and no fraud was detected.

Some fraud was but not enough to overturn the results. The optics look bad. Mail in votes, which are more difficult to audit (not absentee ballots) lean heavily Democrat. Don't care about this election anymore. Its done. But future ones need to be more transparent.

Mail-in votes and absentee ballots is distinction without a difference. And the reason why they lean more Democratic because Trump ranted against them and in general Democrats are wearier about the pandemic.

As to transparency. I'm interested to know what you mean by that. There are not one but several safeguards in place for both mail-in votes and in-person votes. Both parties have people at the ballot places to monitor the elections. In most places where they count you can literally go online and watch them do it. When there are disputes recounts can be asked for and there are thousands of lawyers on both sides. What do you want exactly to make it more transparent?

I'm also interested to know where you get the idea that they are more difficult to audit?

Lastly... optics???? Not for nothing, we just saw a mob stopping the business of governing in an attempt to perform a coup ( not hyperbole but the only right description of breaking into the Capitol to stop the verification of the election results), as a direct result of the current President of the United States claiming the future one is illegitimate and asking the mob to march on the Capitol. As far as optics go, I can't think of much worse.

#1) Absentee ballots are requested. So if I request a ballot it is one thing if one is sent to me and my wife without a request and someone else can grab it, it is another thing.

#2) Poll watchers could not see very well what was happening as I understand it and there are questions of ballot harvesting, ballot dumping, dead people voting, etc. When I vote in person I give my address, they then check my name off and give me a reference tag. I then upload by ballot via a machine. To me that is very straightforward and I also see that my ballot was processed. If someone steals mail in ballots and fills them out for me and my wife or I do so for my wife then there are no true checks and balances. Say I live with my parents and my wife. They are agnostic and don't vote. I receive four unsolicited ballots. I fill all four out for my candidate. My wife and parents either don't know or care and now instead of one vote, my vote counts as four. How do we police that?

#3) It is the Capital and the mob is angry because of the media. You watch CNN and you see a completely different reality from that of Fox. Traditional and Social media both have divided this country. This board is another example. We are at each others throats. BLM protests were not mostly peaceful and 19 people died. The police have been hamstrung and could not do much vs. BLM nor much vs. the Capital uprising. People are angry and I blame the media.

#1) Again a distinction without a difference. The principle is exactly the same. You send in your vote by mail. It's interesting though that too you putting up barriers to voting is considered making voting better. I understand it from a partisan standpoint but it makes the argument that you want elections to be fair ring hollow. The fairest election you can possibly have is the one that has all eligible voters cast their vote and the person who gets the most be declared the winner. I'm willing to grant that the constitution provides an impediment for the second one but you also object to the first.

#2)If you have things to contest fine. All the things that you are claiming happened have either been rejected by the courts or have simply not been asserted to the courts. I've actually read some of the rulings. It wasn't even close. To me, it says something that people make grand claims in places that carry no penalty for lying to then either tone down their claims to a fraction or not assert it all.

3#) Oh, so as long as a mob is angry, whatever they do can be forgiven, including making a coup attempt? Not for nothing Azog but that argument is not a little bit weird not to mention ironic since a few months ago we had an argument where you were blaming me for not convicting riots although I did not one time but several times in the OP and the Democrats as a whole although every single politician clearly condemned the violence. As to whom you blame, the media bears responsibility, although I personally am very careful before I accept anything from any media. That's why I try to see primary sources and am allergic to people both left and right who don't even try to nuance stuff. Having said that, leaving out the person who clearly was the reason for the crowd being so mad by both propagating and directing their anger at other people and simply blaming it on the media seems not credulous. To put it bluntly, Charles Manson didn't kill anybody but that didn't make him any less responsible for what happened.

You didn't address my point so let us do it concretely. If the state sends me four blank voting envelopes. What stops me from filling out all four vs. just mine? Especially if my wife and parents don't know nor care. It is different if I REQUEST mine and they request theirs.

Address this specific example.

And they didn't condemn the violence. Seattle Mayor said it was the summer of love. Nadler called it a myth. Fredo Cuomo asked who said protests have to be peaceful. CNN called them mostly peaceful. Disgraceful.

Sure. First, your parents live with you? Ballots are sent by address. Second, you need to forge their signature, when in doubt election officials can and do call, better hope they don't reach them. Third, congratulations you just committed a felony in order to swing a grand total of TWO votes. Seems a bit risky. Fourth, the chances that that happened presupposes that every person who had their votes stolen either didn't find out or decided to cover for the felon since few actual examples of this happening on any scale are being alleged.

So now please answer my counterarguments.

#1) In my example they do.
#2) They are my wife and parents they would say sure and I doubt the FBI would call.
#3) Felony if you get caught and its tough to catch.
#4) Multiply that example by thousands.

In swing states elections can be divided by thousands or even hundreds. Ask John James. To me mail in ballots are a terrible idea. Absentee ballots, no issue at all.

I'll just answer 2 and 4. Signatures are checked by computer and flagged to be then checked, so yes not the FBI but election officials DO call. And if I multiply it by the thousands the chances that every single parent/sibling/offspring is willing to silently have their votes stolen, especially this day and age is essentially nil. Proof would have been found.

So you have seen the signatures? LOL. You trust the computers? To me it looks fishy that most of the mail in ballots lean Democrat. I find it fishy that BOTH sides garnered so many more votes while the Libertarian candidate garnered 3 mil fewer votes. I find it impossible that the officials check every signature with a computer. I find it odd when nursing homes have thousands of ballots suddenly. Easy to forge those signatures. So let's not pretend that the risk of fraud is not greater than if we all had either in person voting or REQUESTED ballots.

If we cannot agree there then we need to drop this and agree to disagree. To me the RISK of fraud is higher. Doesn't mean there was fraud but I am highly suspicious.

Be suspicious all you want, although I'll say now your suspicions don't seem to be not moored in anything concrete or are easily explained if you are willing to think things through. Libertarians have so much fewer votes for instance because Trump has been so divisive that he nearly eliminated the third party vote. You are for or against there is no middle ground.

So you have called me out because I didn't address your hypothetical. I have done you the courtesy of spending 3 posts on what is the least consequential of your arguments. Can you do me the courtesy of trying to rebut the points I made?

Nope. You still have yet to address the fact that the risk of fraud is significantly higher with mail in ballots. The Libertarian candidate received 3mil fewer votes when compared to 2016. Hard to swallow and Trump who as you say is divisive and a villain received 74.2 million votes. Something is rotten in Denmark. I believe there is fraud on both sides and the whole voting landscape needs to be revamped.

What points would you like me to address? Give me a specific example and I will happily address it.

I have addressed that claim. Again. Between rotty relationships between parents/siblings/offspring/significant other. The chance that there was massive fraud with mail-in ballots without any instance of it coming out that I'm aware of is nil. Show me any case presented in the sixty or so claims that assert it and I'll take it seriously. Until then you are simply giving an opinion without a good justification.

Why is it hard to swallow. Be honest have you ever talked about politics as much as in the last four years? I haven't and that's true for most anybody I know. More interest, more participation. Doesn't seem hard to swallow. Here are my points.

#1) Again a distinction without a difference. The principle is exactly the same. You send in your vote by mail. It's interesting though that too you putting up barriers to voting is considered making voting better. I understand it from a partisan standpoint but it makes the argument that you want elections to be fair ring hollow. The fairest election you can possibly have is the one that has all eligible voters cast their vote and the person who gets the most be declared the winner. I'm willing to grant that the constitution provides an impediment for the second one but you also object to the first.

#2)If you have things to contest fine. All the things that you are claiming happened have either been rejected by the courts or have simply not been asserted to the courts. I've actually read some of the rulings. It wasn't even close. To me, it says something that people make grand claims in places that carry no penalty for lying to then either tone down their claims to a fraction or not assert it all.

3#) Oh, so as long as a mob is angry, whatever they do can be forgiven, including making a coup attempt? Not for nothing Azog but that argument is not a little bit weird not to mention ironic since a few months ago we had an argument where you were blaming me for not convicting riots although I did not one time but several times in the OP and the Democrats as a whole although every single politician clearly condemned the violence. As to whom you blame, the media bears responsibility, although I personally am very careful before I accept anything from any media. That's why I try to see primary sources and am allergic to people both left and right who don't even try to nuance stuff. Having said that, leaving out the person who clearly was the reason for the crowd being so mad by both propagating and directing their anger at other people and simply blaming it on the media seems not credulous. To put it bluntly, Charles Manson didn't kill anybody but that didn't make him any less responsible for what happened.

I never Cared about politics til my kids hit middle school (2018) and I noticed all the PC crap. You conflating Manson with Trump is laughable. And Trump was not the cause but the effect. That’s why he won in 2016.

What points would you like me to address? Give me a specific example and I will happily address it.

So much for that.

OK...so you won’t give me a specific example to address? I did it with you. Lol

I've distilled it some more for you. These are 4 distinct points I made I want you to adress.

The fairest election you can possibly have is the one that has all eligible voters cast their vote and the person who gets the most be declared the winner. I'm willing to grant that the constitution provides an impediment for the second one but you also object to the first.

If you have things to contest fine. All the things that you are claiming happened have either been rejected by the courts or have simply not been asserted to the courts.

so as long as a mob is angry, whatever they do can be forgiven, including making a coup attempt?

leaving out the person who clearly was the reason for the crowd being so mad by both propagating and directing their anger at other people and simply blaming it on the media seems not credulous. To put it bluntly, Charles Manson didn't kill anybody but that didn't make him any less responsible for what happened.

By the way I didn't compare Trump to Charles Manson. I engaged in a Reductio in Absurdum. What I'm saying is that it's absurd to try to not hold Trump responsible because he didn't personally engage in the riots. The fact that it was because of him and under his direction that it happened is enough to hold him responsible.

You’re making statements. Where is the question? To me I think mail in voting is subject to significant fraud. You disagree. And you did compare Trump to Manson for all intents and purposes. Trump didn’t brainwash young impressionable kids to kill. He got 74.2mil votes and many see him and not getting fair treatment from the media, both traditional and social. Our media is corrupt as hell.

Either Trump is lying or the courts aren’t interested but again to me and I am a logical human as I see it, mail in voting is subject to fraud.

Lastly, you see Trump as the cause of all this discord. I see him as the effect. And for your question. I would Have shot every single one of the “mob” once they started committing crimes. You shoot the first 50 and the rest with disperse.

But wait , check it out.

The Wentworth Report

wentworthreport.com

Check what out?

 

[Whodatsaywhodat.]

View attachment 439269

I agree that those who incited were acting out for an unacceptable reason.

Oh, you left out Trump's inciteful remarks, a picture of the mob in action, and a picture of the 4 dead people. I do agree with you, but just don't give sound bites.
Keep in mind that the ballots in those swing states were recounted ad nausea and no fraud was detected.

Some fraud was but not enough to overturn the results. The optics look bad. Mail in votes, which are more difficult to audit (not absentee ballots) lean heavily Democrat. Don't care about this election anymore. Its done. But future ones need to be more transparent.

Mail-in votes and absentee ballots is distinction without a difference. And the reason why they lean more Democratic because Trump ranted against them and in general Democrats are wearier about the pandemic.

As to transparency. I'm interested to know what you mean by that. There are not one but several safeguards in place for both mail-in votes and in-person votes. Both parties have people at the ballot places to monitor the elections. In most places where they count you can literally go online and watch them do it. When there are disputes recounts can be asked for and there are thousands of lawyers on both sides. What do you want exactly to make it more transparent?

I'm also interested to know where you get the idea that they are more difficult to audit?

Lastly... optics???? Not for nothing, we just saw a mob stopping the business of governing in an attempt to perform a coup ( not hyperbole but the only right description of breaking into the Capitol to stop the verification of the election results), as a direct result of the current President of the United States claiming the future one is illegitimate and asking the mob to march on the Capitol. As far as optics go, I can't think of much worse.

#1) Absentee ballots are requested. So if I request a ballot it is one thing if one is sent to me and my wife without a request and someone else can grab it, it is another thing.

#2) Poll watchers could not see very well what was happening as I understand it and there are questions of ballot harvesting, ballot dumping, dead people voting, etc. When I vote in person I give my address, they then check my name off and give me a reference tag. I then upload by ballot via a machine. To me that is very straightforward and I also see that my ballot was processed. If someone steals mail in ballots and fills them out for me and my wife or I do so for my wife then there are no true checks and balances. Say I live with my parents and my wife. They are agnostic and don't vote. I receive four unsolicited ballots. I fill all four out for my candidate. My wife and parents either don't know or care and now instead of one vote, my vote counts as four. How do we police that?

#3) It is the Capital and the mob is angry because of the media. You watch CNN and you see a completely different reality from that of Fox. Traditional and Social media both have divided this country. This board is another example. We are at each others throats. BLM protests were not mostly peaceful and 19 people died. The police have been hamstrung and could not do much vs. BLM nor much vs. the Capital uprising. People are angry and I blame the media.

#1) Again a distinction without a difference. The principle is exactly the same. You send in your vote by mail. It's interesting though that too you putting up barriers to voting is considered making voting better. I understand it from a partisan standpoint but it makes the argument that you want elections to be fair ring hollow. The fairest election you can possibly have is the one that has all eligible voters cast their vote and the person who gets the most be declared the winner. I'm willing to grant that the constitution provides an impediment for the second one but you also object to the first.

#2)If you have things to contest fine. All the things that you are claiming happened have either been rejected by the courts or have simply not been asserted to the courts. I've actually read some of the rulings. It wasn't even close. To me, it says something that people make grand claims in places that carry no penalty for lying to then either tone down their claims to a fraction or not assert it all.

3#) Oh, so as long as a mob is angry, whatever they do can be forgiven, including making a coup attempt? Not for nothing Azog but that argument is not a little bit weird not to mention ironic since a few months ago we had an argument where you were blaming me for not convicting riots although I did not one time but several times in the OP and the Democrats as a whole although every single politician clearly condemned the violence. As to whom you blame, the media bears responsibility, although I personally am very careful before I accept anything from any media. That's why I try to see primary sources and am allergic to people both left and right who don't even try to nuance stuff. Having said that, leaving out the person who clearly was the reason for the crowd being so mad by both propagating and directing their anger at other people and simply blaming it on the media seems not credulous. To put it bluntly, Charles Manson didn't kill anybody but that didn't make him any less responsible for what happened.

You didn't address my point so let us do it concretely. If the state sends me four blank voting envelopes. What stops me from filling out all four vs. just mine? Especially if my wife and parents don't know nor care. It is different if I REQUEST mine and they request theirs.

Address this specific example.

And they didn't condemn the violence. Seattle Mayor said it was the summer of love. Nadler called it a myth. Fredo Cuomo asked who said protests have to be peaceful. CNN called them mostly peaceful. Disgraceful.

Sure. First, your parents live with you? Ballots are sent by address. Second, you need to forge their signature, when in doubt election officials can and do call, better hope they don't reach them. Third, congratulations you just committed a felony in order to swing a grand total of TWO votes. Seems a bit risky. Fourth, the chances that that happened presupposes that every person who had their votes stolen either didn't find out or decided to cover for the felon since few actual examples of this happening on any scale are being alleged.

So now please answer my counterarguments.

#1) In my example they do.
#2) They are my wife and parents they would say sure and I doubt the FBI would call.
#3) Felony if you get caught and its tough to catch.
#4) Multiply that example by thousands.

In swing states elections can be divided by thousands or even hundreds. Ask John James. To me mail in ballots are a terrible idea. Absentee ballots, no issue at all.

I'll just answer 2 and 4. Signatures are checked by computer and flagged to be then checked, so yes not the FBI but election officials DO call. And if I multiply it by the thousands the chances that every single parent/sibling/offspring is willing to silently have their votes stolen, especially this day and age is essentially nil. Proof would have been found.

So you have seen the signatures? LOL. You trust the computers? To me it looks fishy that most of the mail in ballots lean Democrat. I find it fishy that BOTH sides garnered so many more votes while the Libertarian candidate garnered 3 mil fewer votes. I find it impossible that the officials check every signature with a computer. I find it odd when nursing homes have thousands of ballots suddenly. Easy to forge those signatures. So let's not pretend that the risk of fraud is not greater than if we all had either in person voting or REQUESTED ballots.

If we cannot agree there then we need to drop this and agree to disagree. To me the RISK of fraud is higher. Doesn't mean there was fraud but I am highly suspicious.

Be suspicious all you want, although I'll say now your suspicions don't seem to be not moored in anything concrete or are easily explained if you are willing to think things through. Libertarians have so much fewer votes for instance because Trump has been so divisive that he nearly eliminated the third party vote. You are for or against there is no middle ground.

So you have called me out because I didn't address your hypothetical. I have done you the courtesy of spending 3 posts on what is the least consequential of your arguments. Can you do me the courtesy of trying to rebut the points I made?

Nope. You still have yet to address the fact that the risk of fraud is significantly higher with mail in ballots. The Libertarian candidate received 3mil fewer votes when compared to 2016. Hard to swallow and Trump who as you say is divisive and a villain received 74.2 million votes. Something is rotten in Denmark. I believe there is fraud on both sides and the whole voting landscape needs to be revamped.

What points would you like me to address? Give me a specific example and I will happily address it.

I have addressed that claim. Again. Between rotty relationships between parents/siblings/offspring/significant other. The chance that there was massive fraud with mail-in ballots without any instance of it coming out that I'm aware of is nil. Show me any case presented in the sixty or so claims that assert it and I'll take it seriously. Until then you are simply giving an opinion without a good justification.

Why is it hard to swallow. Be honest have you ever talked about politics as much as in the last four years? I haven't and that's true for most anybody I know. More interest, more participation. Doesn't seem hard to swallow. Here are my points.

#1) Again a distinction without a difference. The principle is exactly the same. You send in your vote by mail. It's interesting though that too you putting up barriers to voting is considered making voting better. I understand it from a partisan standpoint but it makes the argument that you want elections to be fair ring hollow. The fairest election you can possibly have is the one that has all eligible voters cast their vote and the person who gets the most be declared the winner. I'm willing to grant that the constitution provides an impediment for the second one but you also object to the first.

#2)If you have things to contest fine. All the things that you are claiming happened have either been rejected by the courts or have simply not been asserted to the courts. I've actually read some of the rulings. It wasn't even close. To me, it says something that people make grand claims in places that carry no penalty for lying to then either tone down their claims to a fraction or not assert it all.

3#) Oh, so as long as a mob is angry, whatever they do can be forgiven, including making a coup attempt? Not for nothing Azog but that argument is not a little bit weird not to mention ironic since a few months ago we had an argument where you were blaming me for not convicting riots although I did not one time but several times in the OP and the Democrats as a whole although every single politician clearly condemned the violence. As to whom you blame, the media bears responsibility, although I personally am very careful before I accept anything from any media. That's why I try to see primary sources and am allergic to people both left and right who don't even try to nuance stuff. Having said that, leaving out the person who clearly was the reason for the crowd being so mad by both propagating and directing their anger at other people and simply blaming it on the media seems not credulous. To put it bluntly, Charles Manson didn't kill anybody but that didn't make him any less responsible for what happened.

I never Cared about politics til my kids hit middle school (2018) and I noticed all the PC crap. You conflating Manson with Trump is laughable. And Trump was not the cause but the effect. That’s why he won in 2016.

What points would you like me to address? Give me a specific example and I will happily address it.

So much for that.

OK...so you won’t give me a specific example to address? I did it with you. Lol

I've distilled it some more for you. These are 4 distinct points I made I want you to adress.

The fairest election you can possibly have is the one that has all eligible voters cast their vote and the person who gets the most be declared the winner. I'm willing to grant that the constitution provides an impediment for the second one but you also object to the first.

If you have things to contest fine. All the things that you are claiming happened have either been rejected by the courts or have simply not been asserted to the courts.

so as long as a mob is angry, whatever they do can be forgiven, including making a coup attempt?

leaving out the person who clearly was the reason for the crowd being so mad by both propagating and directing their anger at other people and simply blaming it on the media seems not credulous. To put it bluntly, Charles Manson didn't kill anybody but that didn't make him any less responsible for what happened.

By the way I didn't compare Trump to Charles Manson. I engaged in a Reductio in Absurdum. What I'm saying is that it's absurd to try to not hold Trump responsible because he didn't personally engage in the riots. The fact that it was because of him and under his direction that it happened is enough to hold him responsible.

You’re making statements. Where is the question? To me I think mail in voting is subject to significant fraud. You disagree. And you did compare Trump to Manson for all intents and purposes. Trump didn’t brainwash young impressionable kids to kill. He got 74.2mil votes and many see him and not getting fair treatment from the media, both traditional and social. Our media is corrupt as hell.

Either Trump is lying or the courts aren’t interested but again to me and I am a logical human as I see it, mail in voting is subject to fraud.

Lastly, you see Trump as the cause of all this discord. I see him as the effect. And for your question. I would Have shot every single one of the “mob” once they started committing crimes. You shoot the first 50 and the rest with disperse.

It is perfectly possible to make a counterargument without asking a question.

And no I didn't compare him to Manson. I find, and I often apply someone else's argument to the extreme. I find it helpful sometimes to point out the absurdity of them. Arguments like this.

#3) It is the Capital and the mob is angry because of the media. You watch CNN and you see a completely different reality from that of Fox. Traditional and Social media both have divided this country.

This is you NOT condemning violence but rather justifying it. I'm glad you changed that position. But there is no way I could have gotten that from your original comment.

Just because something sounds logical doesn't make it true Azog. Everything I said sounds logical to me. Yet you are arguing the opposite.

I've had an argument with my brother a few weeks ago. He believed in some conspiracy theory and couldn't fathom that I wasn't buying his logic for believing it. He kept on going back to saying it's logical. It took me an hour to try to explain to him the difference between an opinion and a fact. That and not the media is the fundamental problem. To many people, most of them Trump supporters feel their opinion is valid despite the available evidence not supporting it.

Take this comment.

Either Trump is lying or the courts aren’t interested

The courts presided by judges appointed by both parties universally rejected all election challenges. Few of those challenges even asserted any fraud. When asked point-blank by a judge if he knew of any widespread voter fraud a lawyer representing Trump said "not to my knowledge" yet you still can't straight up say that Trump lied. You hold on to your opinion not just without good reason but despite good reason to believe otherwise.

I said either so it’s possible he is lying but I would bet there was fraud. Not enough maybe to impact this election but close town races, definitely could. Mail in voting is a terrible idea. If you can’t see that then I cant help you. It’s funny people would never send $10k in cash via mail but we trust our votes to go through mail. Craziness

You said either. This implies you think there is reason to doubt the courts. It's an opinion of course and everybody can have any opinion they want. My point is that I have plenty of facts supporting my opinion. You on the other hand have no valid reason I can discern to doubt the court rulings, yet you seemingly do.

Of course I do. I do not Trust them and you’re wrong. Either means that Trump could be lying or just not accepting the truth. Courts have made mistakes before. Because “courts” are just people interpreting the law. It’s interesting how you try to use big words and fancy language but in the end you’re just another brainwashed person. Brainwashed by whom? Our media. Both traditional and social. You don’t even apply your own logic and level of skepticism. Pretty sad. You should reflect on that.

I do apply skepticism. But skepticism has to have a valid basis.
Here's the thing. If those that agree with me and those that disagree say the same thing, what do you base your skepticism on? Doesn't matter who did the nominating all claims got rejected. If the assertions that are made on behalf of Trump in court don't really claim voter fraud, what do you base your skepticism on? If the DOJ, led by an overtly partisan AG flat out states there was no widespread voter fraud what do you base your skepticism on?

Hmmm...I saw an interesting documentary. When Magic Johnson tested positive for AIDS, many so called friends abandoned him, including Isiah Thomas, his so called best friend. They said he was gay and would die and were afraid he was contagious. You know who said it was all BS? Larry Bird. The hick from French Lick. It made them closer friends. And look, he didn’t die, he isn’t gay, etc.


IDC what Barr or Trump say. To me, mail in votes have a greater risk of fraud than in person voting. In a town election the example I gave you would have a meaningful impact. You think in my town people scrutinize signatures? Come on. This is why we don’t allow it. We have in person voting. Optics matter. Mail in voting has a greater risk of fraud. Period.

View attachment 439269

I agree that those who incited were acting out for an unacceptable reason.

Oh, you left out Trump's inciteful remarks, a picture of the mob in action, and a picture of the 4 dead people. I do agree with you, but just don't give sound bites.
Keep in mind that the ballots in those swing states were recounted ad nausea and no fraud was detected.

Some fraud was but not enough to overturn the results. The optics look bad. Mail in votes, which are more difficult to audit (not absentee ballots) lean heavily Democrat. Don't care about this election anymore. Its done. But future ones need to be more transparent.

Mail-in votes and absentee ballots is distinction without a difference. And the reason why they lean more Democratic because Trump ranted against them and in general Democrats are wearier about the pandemic.

As to transparency. I'm interested to know what you mean by that. There are not one but several safeguards in place for both mail-in votes and in-person votes. Both parties have people at the ballot places to monitor the elections. In most places where they count you can literally go online and watch them do it. When there are disputes recounts can be asked for and there are thousands of lawyers on both sides. What do you want exactly to make it more transparent?

I'm also interested to know where you get the idea that they are more difficult to audit?

Lastly... optics???? Not for nothing, we just saw a mob stopping the business of governing in an attempt to perform a coup ( not hyperbole but the only right description of breaking into the Capitol to stop the verification of the election results), as a direct result of the current President of the United States claiming the future one is illegitimate and asking the mob to march on the Capitol. As far as optics go, I can't think of much worse.

#1) Absentee ballots are requested. So if I request a ballot it is one thing if one is sent to me and my wife without a request and someone else can grab it, it is another thing.

#2) Poll watchers could not see very well what was happening as I understand it and there are questions of ballot harvesting, ballot dumping, dead people voting, etc. When I vote in person I give my address, they then check my name off and give me a reference tag. I then upload by ballot via a machine. To me that is very straightforward and I also see that my ballot was processed. If someone steals mail in ballots and fills them out for me and my wife or I do so for my wife then there are no true checks and balances. Say I live with my parents and my wife. They are agnostic and don't vote. I receive four unsolicited ballots. I fill all four out for my candidate. My wife and parents either don't know or care and now instead of one vote, my vote counts as four. How do we police that?

#3) It is the Capital and the mob is angry because of the media. You watch CNN and you see a completely different reality from that of Fox. Traditional and Social media both have divided this country. This board is another example. We are at each others throats. BLM protests were not mostly peaceful and 19 people died. The police have been hamstrung and could not do much vs. BLM nor much vs. the Capital uprising. People are angry and I blame the media.

#1) Again a distinction without a difference. The principle is exactly the same. You send in your vote by mail. It's interesting though that too you putting up barriers to voting is considered making voting better. I understand it from a partisan standpoint but it makes the argument that you want elections to be fair ring hollow. The fairest election you can possibly have is the one that has all eligible voters cast their vote and the person who gets the most be declared the winner. I'm willing to grant that the constitution provides an impediment for the second one but you also object to the first.

#2)If you have things to contest fine. All the things that you are claiming happened have either been rejected by the courts or have simply not been asserted to the courts. I've actually read some of the rulings. It wasn't even close. To me, it says something that people make grand claims in places that carry no penalty for lying to then either tone down their claims to a fraction or not assert it all.

3#) Oh, so as long as a mob is angry, whatever they do can be forgiven, including making a coup attempt? Not for nothing Azog but that argument is not a little bit weird not to mention ironic since a few months ago we had an argument where you were blaming me for not convicting riots although I did not one time but several times in the OP and the Democrats as a whole although every single politician clearly condemned the violence. As to whom you blame, the media bears responsibility, although I personally am very careful before I accept anything from any media. That's why I try to see primary sources and am allergic to people both left and right who don't even try to nuance stuff. Having said that, leaving out the person who clearly was the reason for the crowd being so mad by both propagating and directing their anger at other people and simply blaming it on the media seems not credulous. To put it bluntly, Charles Manson didn't kill anybody but that didn't make him any less responsible for what happened.

You didn't address my point so let us do it concretely. If the state sends me four blank voting envelopes. What stops me from filling out all four vs. just mine? Especially if my wife and parents don't know nor care. It is different if I REQUEST mine and they request theirs.

Address this specific example.

And they didn't condemn the violence. Seattle Mayor said it was the summer of love. Nadler called it a myth. Fredo Cuomo asked who said protests have to be peaceful. CNN called them mostly peaceful. Disgraceful.

Sure. First, your parents live with you? Ballots are sent by address. Second, you need to forge their signature, when in doubt election officials can and do call, better hope they don't reach them. Third, congratulations you just committed a felony in order to swing a grand total of TWO votes. Seems a bit risky. Fourth, the chances that that happened presupposes that every person who had their votes stolen either didn't find out or decided to cover for the felon since few actual examples of this happening on any scale are being alleged.

So now please answer my counterarguments.

#1) In my example they do.
#2) They are my wife and parents they would say sure and I doubt the FBI would call.
#3) Felony if you get caught and its tough to catch.
#4) Multiply that example by thousands.

In swing states elections can be divided by thousands or even hundreds. Ask John James. To me mail in ballots are a terrible idea. Absentee ballots, no issue at all.

I'll just answer 2 and 4. Signatures are checked by computer and flagged to be then checked, so yes not the FBI but election officials DO call. And if I multiply it by the thousands the chances that every single parent/sibling/offspring is willing to silently have their votes stolen, especially this day and age is essentially nil. Proof would have been found.

So you have seen the signatures? LOL. You trust the computers? To me it looks fishy that most of the mail in ballots lean Democrat. I find it fishy that BOTH sides garnered so many more votes while the Libertarian candidate garnered 3 mil fewer votes. I find it impossible that the officials check every signature with a computer. I find it odd when nursing homes have thousands of ballots suddenly. Easy to forge those signatures. So let's not pretend that the risk of fraud is not greater than if we all had either in person voting or REQUESTED ballots.

If we cannot agree there then we need to drop this and agree to disagree. To me the RISK of fraud is higher. Doesn't mean there was fraud but I am highly suspicious.

Be suspicious all you want, although I'll say now your suspicions don't seem to be not moored in anything concrete or are easily explained if you are willing to think things through. Libertarians have so much fewer votes for instance because Trump has been so divisive that he nearly eliminated the third party vote. You are for or against there is no middle ground.

So you have called me out because I didn't address your hypothetical. I have done you the courtesy of spending 3 posts on what is the least consequential of your arguments. Can you do me the courtesy of trying to rebut the points I made?

Nope. You still have yet to address the fact that the risk of fraud is significantly higher with mail in ballots. The Libertarian candidate received 3mil fewer votes when compared to 2016. Hard to swallow and Trump who as you say is divisive and a villain received 74.2 million votes. Something is rotten in Denmark. I believe there is fraud on both sides and the whole voting landscape needs to be revamped.

What points would you like me to address? Give me a specific example and I will happily address it.

I have addressed that claim. Again. Between rotty relationships between parents/siblings/offspring/significant other. The chance that there was massive fraud with mail-in ballots without any instance of it coming out that I'm aware of is nil. Show me any case presented in the sixty or so claims that assert it and I'll take it seriously. Until then you are simply giving an opinion without a good justification.

Why is it hard to swallow. Be honest have you ever talked about politics as much as in the last four years? I haven't and that's true for most anybody I know. More interest, more participation. Doesn't seem hard to swallow. Here are my points.

#1) Again a distinction without a difference. The principle is exactly the same. You send in your vote by mail. It's interesting though that too you putting up barriers to voting is considered making voting better. I understand it from a partisan standpoint but it makes the argument that you want elections to be fair ring hollow. The fairest election you can possibly have is the one that has all eligible voters cast their vote and the person who gets the most be declared the winner. I'm willing to grant that the constitution provides an impediment for the second one but you also object to the first.

#2)If you have things to contest fine. All the things that you are claiming happened have either been rejected by the courts or have simply not been asserted to the courts. I've actually read some of the rulings. It wasn't even close. To me, it says something that people make grand claims in places that carry no penalty for lying to then either tone down their claims to a fraction or not assert it all.

3#) Oh, so as long as a mob is angry, whatever they do can be forgiven, including making a coup attempt? Not for nothing Azog but that argument is not a little bit weird not to mention ironic since a few months ago we had an argument where you were blaming me for not convicting riots although I did not one time but several times in the OP and the Democrats as a whole although every single politician clearly condemned the violence. As to whom you blame, the media bears responsibility, although I personally am very careful before I accept anything from any media. That's why I try to see primary sources and am allergic to people both left and right who don't even try to nuance stuff. Having said that, leaving out the person who clearly was the reason for the crowd being so mad by both propagating and directing their anger at other people and simply blaming it on the media seems not credulous. To put it bluntly, Charles Manson didn't kill anybody but that didn't make him any less responsible for what happened.

I never Cared about politics til my kids hit middle school (2018) and I noticed all the PC crap. You conflating Manson with Trump is laughable. And Trump was not the cause but the effect. That’s why he won in 2016.

What points would you like me to address? Give me a specific example and I will happily address it.

So much for that.

OK...so you won’t give me a specific example to address? I did it with you. Lol

I've distilled it some more for you. These are 4 distinct points I made I want you to adress.

The fairest election you can possibly have is the one that has all eligible voters cast their vote and the person who gets the most be declared the winner. I'm willing to grant that the constitution provides an impediment for the second one but you also object to the first.

If you have things to contest fine. All the things that you are claiming happened have either been rejected by the courts or have simply not been asserted to the courts.

so as long as a mob is angry, whatever they do can be forgiven, including making a coup attempt?

leaving out the person who clearly was the reason for the crowd being so mad by both propagating and directing their anger at other people and simply blaming it on the media seems not credulous. To put it bluntly, Charles Manson didn't kill anybody but that didn't make him any less responsible for what happened.

By the way I didn't compare Trump to Charles Manson. I engaged in a Reductio in Absurdum. What I'm saying is that it's absurd to try to not hold Trump responsible because he didn't personally engage in the riots. The fact that it was because of him and under his direction that it happened is enough to hold him responsible.

You’re making statements. Where is the question? To me I think mail in voting is subject to significant fraud. You disagree. And you did compare Trump to Manson for all intents and purposes. Trump didn’t brainwash young impressionable kids to kill. He got 74.2mil votes and many see him and not getting fair treatment from the media, both traditional and social. Our media is corrupt as hell.

Either Trump is lying or the courts aren’t interested but again to me and I am a logical human as I see it, mail in voting is subject to fraud.

Lastly, you see Trump as the cause of all this discord. I see him as the effect. And for your question. I would Have shot every single one of the “mob” once they started committing crimes. You shoot the first 50 and the rest with disperse.

But wait , check it out.

The Wentworth Report

wentworthreport.com

Check what out?

Foreign Interference? Head Of Italian Aerospace Company’s IT Department Used ‘Military Grade Cyber Warfare’ To Switch Votes ‘For Trump To Biden’

Foreign Interference? Head Of Italian Aerospace Company’s IT Department Used ‘Military Grade Cyber Warfare’ To Switch Votes ‘For Trump To Biden’. Here’s the person who stole the election, adm…

wentworthreport.com

 

[kyzr]

There is a lot of hand-wringing, indignation and virtue signaling going on in the MSM right now about DC’s riots. This has been building like a pressure dome under a volcano and finally it blew, the eruption of a long simmering Mount St. Helen's. No one was paying attention.

– democrats spent four years calling Trump a “traitor” and a “Russian agent”
– They called him “illegitimate
– They said he stole the election
– They said the Russians rigged the election
– They impeached him for Biden’s extortion of Ukraine
– democrats denied the violence of Antifa and BLM
– For nine months that violence has raged
– Nadler said it was a “myth”
– Hoyer denied Antifa was violent
– They said Antifa doesn’t exist
– Antifa raided and burned the Federal building in Portland while people were inside. No democrat even blinked an eye
– Antifa vandalized Federal property in Philadelphia
– During the violence in Minneapolis, Kamala Harris was asking for help bailing out the rioters
– Antifa/BLM burned the nation’s Capitol. democrats weren’t especially bothered.

Remember this from Kenosha?
– 30 people (at least) have died in that mythical violence, among them David Dorn and Patrick Underwood. ( I know their names. I wrote about them)
– As Minneapolis burned, Ali Velshi kept telling us it was “not unruly”
– Those mythical riots caused between $1-2 billion in damages
– 700 cops were injured
– Ayanna Pressley called for “unrest in the streets”
– democrat governors and the left are destroying the economy with lockdowns that are never going to end
– Violence is wrong, you say? Let’s hark back to Chris Cuomo

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ErFmfNnVkAEwZT6?format=jpg&name=small

You still wonder why there was pent up rage? This has been brewing for a long time. Capitol cops murdered an unarmed 14 year woman vet because she climbed into a window. Unlike the during the BLM/Antifa riots, no cops were shot. Outside of her murder it’s hard for me to get too exercised about this when no one on the left got exercised about the above. In fact, they asked for violence. Repeatedly, and the MSM calls BLM riots "peaceful protests"?!

Trump spent four years claiming elections are rigged. He's spent 40 years claiming the system is rigged against him. He has spent 4 years inciting violence .. pouring gasoline everywhere.. attacking our allies and Americans.. from the intelligence community on down. On Jan 6th Trump lit the match. He believes he is exceptional.. He believes he is above the law.

Agreed January 6th was a dumb idea. He thought Pence would pull a rabbit out of the hat.
That was stupidity on Trump's part, his last grasp at a straw that wasn't there.

 

[Oldestyle]

It should have been obvious that a huge percentage of the population wasn't going to "respect" the result of this vote, Joe! We think you set it up that way on purpose. Mailing out ballots? Ballot harvesting? Poll watchers not allowed to do their jobs? This entire election had a stench to it that won't be going away any time soon and people are pissed off that it came to that!

Actually, this election was just fine... it's been audited and reviewed numerous times, 60 --count them - 60 courts have reviewed the vote and found them valid. 50 State Legislatures validated their votes...

Trump was never wanted by the American people, fell ass-backwards into the office on a technicality, and people made damned sure that didn't happen again after he screwed up pretty much everything.

View attachment 440878
View attachment 440879
View attachment 440881

Because people didn't want four more years of THIS shit.

THAT shit had nothing to do with Trump! That shit is what China gave us!

Trump was the guy who gave us three years of some of the best economies we've ever had! Better trade deals with Mexico, Canada, Europe and China! He got us out of the Paris Accord which is the stupidest deal EVER signed by any Administration! He got our NATO allies to pull their own weight on financing the defense of Europe! He brokered peace accords between Israel and it's Arab neighbors! He pulled US combat troops out of the conflict between Turkey and the Kurds so we didn't get sucked into yet ANOTHER regional conflict we have no business being in! He reestablished sanctions on Iran to make it harder for the mullahs to build their nuke! He nominated three incredibly talented Supreme Court Justices!

Now watch what your blithering idiot, Joe Biden does with the next four years! It's going to be a cluster fuck of EPIC proportions! He owes all kinds of free goodies to the progressives that he promised he'd give them if they elected him and he's got no revenue coming in to pay for it all. He doesn't have a clue how to create jobs or grow the economy and one of the first things he's going to do is put us back in the Paris Accords...which is why China has been backing him all along! Great for them and a disaster for us!

Exactly right! In the end Trump couldn't handle the 4-years of mistreatment by the rancid "fake news" MSM and their constant 95% negative coverage.
When the courts wouldn't step in Trump should have accepted the result and worked for states to fix their broken election systems.
Instead he whined and wanted a fight he couldn't win and fucked everything up, a very sad end to a great presidency.

A great presidency in spite of the unlawful attacks by the Obama admin:
Trump's 1st term was a miracle in itself, the biggest upset in US election history. Hillary and the DNC actually colluded with and paid Russians for "dirt" on Trump, the "Steele Dossier". Obama used the power of the DOJ, FBI, CIA and other Federal agencies to illegally spy on and setup Trump for failure. Operations Crossfire Hurricane and Razor, the Mueller Investigation, Russian Collusion Hoax, the MSM's constant 95% negative coverage and "fake news", Never-Trump Republicans, the Lincoln Project, globalists of every stripe, the entrenched Deep State who all oppose Trump's policies, the planted leakers and whistle-blowers, and the RINOs who'd rather shill for K-Street than work for main street. Then add to all of that the outright hatred shown by the House democrats toward Trump, to the point of "non-crime" Impeachment Articles, probably twice!!

This guy was the worst president ever and Obama didn't attack him. Your post is a bunch of lies.

Obama criticized Trump almost as much as he blamed Bush. He's done it more than any ex-President I've ever seen. Which of course opens the door for Trump to be JUST as critical of the idiot that you on the left have just installed as our President! Hence the need to silence him and any OTHER critics of the Biden Administration! Welcome to the new America...where speech is no longer free...it's now controlled by the people in power!

 

[Oldestyle]

Isn't it amazing that over the past few years voices from the left have been able to say whatever they want...even if it results in riots with the deaths of dozens of people...yet the free speech of conservatives...THAT is now deemed "dangerous" because it might incite violence? How did we arrive at this point and where is the ACLU?

 

[Bobob]

It should have been obvious that a huge percentage of the population wasn't going to "respect" the result of this vote, Joe! We think you set it up that way on purpose. Mailing out ballots? Ballot harvesting? Poll watchers not allowed to do their jobs? This entire election had a stench to it that won't be going away any time soon and people are pissed off that it came to that!

Actually, this election was just fine... it's been audited and reviewed numerous times, 60 --count them - 60 courts have reviewed the vote and found them valid. 50 State Legislatures validated their votes...

Trump was never wanted by the American people, fell ass-backwards into the office on a technicality, and people made damned sure that didn't happen again after he screwed up pretty much everything.

View attachment 440878
View attachment 440879
View attachment 440881

Because people didn't want four more years of THIS shit.

THAT shit had nothing to do with Trump! That shit is what China gave us!

Trump was the guy who gave us three years of some of the best economies we've ever had! Better trade deals with Mexico, Canada, Europe and China! He got us out of the Paris Accord which is the stupidest deal EVER signed by any Administration! He got our NATO allies to pull their own weight on financing the defense of Europe! He brokered peace accords between Israel and it's Arab neighbors! He pulled US combat troops out of the conflict between Turkey and the Kurds so we didn't get sucked into yet ANOTHER regional conflict we have no business being in! He reestablished sanctions on Iran to make it harder for the mullahs to build their nuke! He nominated three incredibly talented Supreme Court Justices!

Now watch what your blithering idiot, Joe Biden does with the next four years! It's going to be a cluster fuck of EPIC proportions! He owes all kinds of free goodies to the progressives that he promised he'd give them if they elected him and he's got no revenue coming in to pay for it all. He doesn't have a clue how to create jobs or grow the economy and one of the first things he's going to do is put us back in the Paris Accords...which is why China has been backing him all along! Great for them and a disaster for us!

Exactly right! In the end Trump couldn't handle the 4-years of mistreatment by the rancid "fake news" MSM and their constant 95% negative coverage.
When the courts wouldn't step in Trump should have accepted the result and worked for states to fix their broken election systems.
Instead he whined and wanted a fight he couldn't win and fucked everything up, a very sad end to a great presidency.

A great presidency in spite of the unlawful attacks by the Obama admin:
Trump's 1st term was a miracle in itself, the biggest upset in US election history. Hillary and the DNC actually colluded with and paid Russians for "dirt" on Trump, the "Steele Dossier". Obama used the power of the DOJ, FBI, CIA and other Federal agencies to illegally spy on and setup Trump for failure. Operations Crossfire Hurricane and Razor, the Mueller Investigation, Russian Collusion Hoax, the MSM's constant 95% negative coverage and "fake news", Never-Trump Republicans, the Lincoln Project, globalists of every stripe, the entrenched Deep State who all oppose Trump's policies, the planted leakers and whistle-blowers, and the RINOs who'd rather shill for K-Street than work for main street. Then add to all of that the outright hatred shown by the House democrats toward Trump, to the point of "non-crime" Impeachment Articles, probably twice!!

This guy was the worst president ever and Obama didn't attack him. Your post is a bunch of lies.

Obama criticized Trump almost as much as he blamed Bush. He's done it more than any ex-President I've ever seen. Which of course opens the door for Trump to be JUST as critical of the idiot that you on the left have just installed as our President! Hence the need to silence him and any OTHER critics of the Biden Administration! Welcome to the new America...where speech is no longer free...it's now controlled by the people in power!

Sorry, hotshot. Trump dissed Obama ad nausea during the last 4 years and Obama rarely if ever replied. Finally, Obama stopped his silence and came out punching.
Being much more intelligent and sharper than that grifter, Obama gave some stinging remarks about Trump that are well-deserved.

 

[ThoughtCrimes]

Show me one example where the Donald promoted mobs storming the capitol building and I can show you 100's of examples of Dim-shits aiding and abetting violence across this country.

How many of those "100's of examples" took place on the grounds of and within the United States Capitol within the District of Columbia? How many of those "100's of examples" were acts of insurrection as noted in 18 U.S.C. § 2383.

Did all those insurrectionists who stormed the Capitol on Jan. 6th and who are being rounded up now facing charges in the same criminal jeopardy as last summer's protesters? Just how the fuck can you or any other knuckle dragger try to equate those two disparate groups, one of protesters and a second of insurrectionists?

 

[Bobob]

Show me one example where the Donald promoted mobs storming the capitol building and I can show you 100's of examples of Dim-shits aiding and abetting violence across this country.

How many of those "100's of examples" took place on the grounds of and within the United States Capitol within the District of Columbia? How many of those "100's of examples" were acts of insurrection as noted in 18 U.S.C. § 2383.

Did all those insurrectionists who stormed the Capitol on Jan. 6th and who are being rounded up now facing charges in the same criminal jeopardy as last summer's protesters? Just how the fuck can you or any other knuckle dragger try to equate those two disparate groups, one of protesters and a second of insurrectionists?

They only compare in that both are violent, and that I where I draw the line.

 

[JoeB131]

Exactly right! In the end Trump couldn't handle the 4-years of mistreatment by the rancid "fake news" MSM and their constant 95% negative coverage.
When the courts wouldn't step in Trump should have accepted the result and worked for states to fix their broken election systems.
Instead he whined and wanted a fight he couldn't win and fucked everything up, a very sad end to a great presidency.

Actually, his presidency is fucked up, and he's going out like a bitch.

 

[kyzr]

Exactly right! In the end Trump couldn't handle the 4-years of mistreatment by the rancid "fake news" MSM and their constant 95% negative coverage.
When the courts wouldn't step in Trump should have accepted the result and worked for states to fix their broken election systems.
Instead he whined and wanted a fight he couldn't win and fucked everything up, a very sad end to a great presidency.

Actually, his presidency is fucked up, and he's going out like a bitch.

Trump's presidency was a miracle in itself, the biggest upset in US election history. Hillary and the DNC actually colluded with and paid Russians for "dirt" on Trump, the "Steele Dossier". Obama used the power of the DOJ, FBI, CIA and other Federal agencies to illegally spy on and setup Trump for failure. Operations Crossfire Hurricane and Razor, the Mueller Investigation, Russian Collusion Hoax, the MSM's constant 95% negative coverage and "fake news", Never-Trump Republicans, the Lincoln Project, globalists of every stripe, the entrenched Deep State who all oppose Trump's policies, the planted leakers and whistle-blowers, and the RINOs who'd rather shill for K-Street than work for main street. Then add to all of that the outright hatred shown by the House democrats toward Trump, to the point of "non-crime" Impeachment Articles, twice!!

Trump went out like a bitch, but his presidency was remarkable, his list of accomplishments won't be matched. Promises Kept | President Donald J. Trump's Accomplishments

We'll compare Biden's list of accomplishments with Trumps in 4-years.

 

[Staidhup]

Funny numb nuts still can’t show us where it was said, or how Trump incited a riot resulting in the storming of the peoples house. It doesn’t exist yet mainstream media, Nancy, shifty, and host of others claim they can prove intent. Sorry losers we have been down this road before. do yourself a favor and read the F-ing speech before you make a bigger ass out of yourself. One can only pray not everyone is so stupid, maybe they are after all Biden was elected.

 

[forkup]

View attachment 439269

I agree that those who incited were acting out for an unacceptable reason.

Oh, you left out Trump's inciteful remarks, a picture of the mob in action, and a picture of the 4 dead people. I do agree with you, but just don't give sound bites.
Keep in mind that the ballots in those swing states were recounted ad nausea and no fraud was detected.

Some fraud was but not enough to overturn the results. The optics look bad. Mail in votes, which are more difficult to audit (not absentee ballots) lean heavily Democrat. Don't care about this election anymore. Its done. But future ones need to be more transparent.

Mail-in votes and absentee ballots is distinction without a difference. And the reason why they lean more Democratic because Trump ranted against them and in general Democrats are wearier about the pandemic.

As to transparency. I'm interested to know what you mean by that. There are not one but several safeguards in place for both mail-in votes and in-person votes. Both parties have people at the ballot places to monitor the elections. In most places where they count you can literally go online and watch them do it. When there are disputes recounts can be asked for and there are thousands of lawyers on both sides. What do you want exactly to make it more transparent?

I'm also interested to know where you get the idea that they are more difficult to audit?

Lastly... optics???? Not for nothing, we just saw a mob stopping the business of governing in an attempt to perform a coup ( not hyperbole but the only right description of breaking into the Capitol to stop the verification of the election results), as a direct result of the current President of the United States claiming the future one is illegitimate and asking the mob to march on the Capitol. As far as optics go, I can't think of much worse.

You want elections that people truly believe are legitimate? It's easy to do. You vote one of two ways! Either in person with a valid ID...or you vote by an absentee ballot that you're requested be sent to your address.

Let's be honest here. The reason the "optics" are so bad is that the process was changed because of politics to the point where people no longer TRUST it! Let's get back to elections that we can have faith in! Stop all the bullshit about voter exclusion. Secure the elections so we aren't counting votes for weeks afterwards and disputing counts as fraudulent.

The only reason the elections are considered fraudulent is because Trump has claimed they were in both election cycles. And the protest to voting by mail is equally started by Trump. It was encourag ed by the GOP before that.

I find it interesting that you guys all pretend this narrative started in a vacuum. I fail to see a reason why sending out ballots to the address of all eligible voters is deemed a security risk but requesting them isn't.

It is simply self serving.

As to voter trust being easy to accomplish. That's bs. Voter trust can only be accomplished if both sides accept that there's a possibility they'll lose. And before you start claiming that the Dems didn't accept 2016. Clinton conceded within hours once it became clear she lost. It was Trump who contested the results... even after he won. So don't pretend people will accept the results if you simply conduct the elections a certain way.

 

[JoeB131]

Trump's presidency was a miracle in itself, the biggest upset in US election history.

yeah.... Um, in the way that 9/11 and the Titanic hitting the iceberg were "miracles".

Hillary and the DNC actually colluded with and paid Russians for "dirt" on Trump, the "Steele Dossier". Obama used the power of the DOJ, FBI, CIA and other Federal agencies to illegally spy on and setup Trump for failure. Operations Crossfire Hurricane and Razor, the Mueller Investigation, Russian Collusion Hoax, the MSM's constant 95% negative coverage and "fake news", Never-Trump Republicans, the Lincoln Project, globalists of every stripe, the entrenched Deep State who all oppose Trump's policies, the planted leakers and whistle-blowers, and the RINOs who'd rather shill for K-Street than work for main street. Then add to all of that the outright hatred shown by the House democrats toward Trump, to the point of "non-crime" Impeachment Articles, twice!!

Actually, when you have that many people saying, "Putting this guy in is a terrible idea", it was probably a terrible idea.

Trump went out like a bitch, but his presidency was remarkable, his list of accomplishments won't be matched.

Yeah, his list of accomplishments.

376,000 DEAD.
22 million sick
65 million jobs lost
First president since Hoover to lose jobs.
Only president to be impeached twice
Only one of three presidents to be impeached.
only one of five presidents to lose the popular vote
Only one of ten presidents to be voted out of office

 

[kyzr]

Trump's presidency was a miracle in itself, the biggest upset in US election history.

yeah.... Um, in the way that 9/11 and the Titanic hitting the iceberg were "miracles".

Hillary and the DNC actually colluded with and paid Russians for "dirt" on Trump, the "Steele Dossier". Obama used the power of the DOJ, FBI, CIA and other Federal agencies to illegally spy on and setup Trump for failure. Operations Crossfire Hurricane and Razor, the Mueller Investigation, Russian Collusion Hoax, the MSM's constant 95% negative coverage and "fake news", Never-Trump Republicans, the Lincoln Project, globalists of every stripe, the entrenched Deep State who all oppose Trump's policies, the planted leakers and whistle-blowers, and the RINOs who'd rather shill for K-Street than work for main street. Then add to all of that the outright hatred shown by the House democrats toward Trump, to the point of "non-crime" Impeachment Articles, twice!!

Actually, when you have that many people saying, "Putting this guy in is a terrible idea", it was probably a terrible idea.

Trump went out like a bitch, but his presidency was remarkable, his list of accomplishments won't be matched.

Yeah, his list of accomplishments.

376,000 DEAD.
22 million sick
65 million jobs lost
First president since Hoover to lose jobs.
Only president to be impeached twice
Only one of three presidents to be impeached.
only one of five presidents to lose the popular vote
Only one of ten presidents to be voted out of office

Blaming Trump? Look again:
376,000 DEAD. China's worldwide covid pandemic, but you'd rather blame Trump than China,
22 million sick China's worldwide covid pandemic, but you'd rather blame Trump than China,
65 million jobs lost. China's worldwide covid pandemic, but you'd rather blame Trump than China,
First president since Hoover to lose jobs. China's worldwide covid pandemic, but you'd rather blame Trump than China,
Only president to be impeached twice By partisan democrats for non-crimes, with no GOP votes
Only one of three presidents to be impeached. By partisan democrats for non-crimes, with no GOP votes
only one of five presidents to lose the popular vote Trump won the Electoral College, which elects presidents, popular vote is irrelevant
Only one of ten presidents to be voted out of office By democrat voter fraud

 

[Bobob]

View attachment 439269

I agree that those who incited were acting out for an unacceptable reason.

Oh, you left out Trump's inciteful remarks, a picture of the mob in action, and a picture of the 4 dead people. I do agree with you, but just don't give sound bites.
Keep in mind that the ballots in those swing states were recounted ad nausea and no fraud was detected.

Some fraud was but not enough to overturn the results. The optics look bad. Mail in votes, which are more difficult to audit (not absentee ballots) lean heavily Democrat. Don't care about this election anymore. Its done. But future ones need to be more transparent.

Mail-in votes and absentee ballots is distinction without a difference. And the reason why they lean more Democratic because Trump ranted against them and in general Democrats are wearier about the pandemic.

As to transparency. I'm interested to know what you mean by that. There are not one but several safeguards in place for both mail-in votes and in-person votes. Both parties have people at the ballot places to monitor the elections. In most places where they count you can literally go online and watch them do it. When there are disputes recounts can be asked for and there are thousands of lawyers on both sides. What do you want exactly to make it more transparent?

I'm also interested to know where you get the idea that they are more difficult to audit?

Lastly... optics???? Not for nothing, we just saw a mob stopping the business of governing in an attempt to perform a coup ( not hyperbole but the only right description of breaking into the Capitol to stop the verification of the election results), as a direct result of the current President of the United States claiming the future one is illegitimate and asking the mob to march on the Capitol. As far as optics go, I can't think of much worse.

You want elections that people truly believe are legitimate? It's easy to do. You vote one of two ways! Either in person with a valid ID...or you vote by an absentee ballot that you're requested be sent to your address.

Let's be honest here. The reason the "optics" are so bad is that the process was changed because of politics to the point where people no longer TRUST it! Let's get back to elections that we can have faith in! Stop all the bullshit about voter exclusion. Secure the elections so we aren't counting votes for weeks afterwards and disputing counts as fraudulent.

The only reason the elections are considered fraudulent is because Trump has claimed they were in both election cycles. And the protest to voting by mail is equally started by Trump. It was encourag ed by the GOP before that.

I find it interesting that you guys all pretend this narrative started in a vacuum. I fail to see a reason why sending out ballots to the address of all eligible voters is deemed a security risk but requesting them isn't.

It is simply self serving.

As to voter trust being easy to accomplish. That's bs. Voter trust can only be accomplished if both sides accept that there's a possibility they'll lose. And before you start claiming that the Dems didn't accept 2016. Clinton conceded within hours once it became clear she lost. It was Trump who contested the results... even after he won. So don't pretend people will accept the results if you simply conduct the elections a certain way.

Excellent post

 

[LordBrownTrout]

Cops, Kids, Reporters & Activists Were Murdered As Democrats Incited 2020 Riots... Now They've Accused Trump of Their Tactics. - The National Pulse

The same media and Hollywood collective that derided American police in 2020 is now flooding the airwaves with their crocodile tears about the police who were on the front lines against trouble-making demonstrators at the nation’s Capitol on Wednesday.News networks sickly dedicated just a few...

thenationalpulse.com

 

[Oldestyle]

View attachment 439269

I agree that those who incited were acting out for an unacceptable reason.

Oh, you left out Trump's inciteful remarks, a picture of the mob in action, and a picture of the 4 dead people. I do agree with you, but just don't give sound bites.
Keep in mind that the ballots in those swing states were recounted ad nausea and no fraud was detected.

Some fraud was but not enough to overturn the results. The optics look bad. Mail in votes, which are more difficult to audit (not absentee ballots) lean heavily Democrat. Don't care about this election anymore. Its done. But future ones need to be more transparent.

Mail-in votes and absentee ballots is distinction without a difference. And the reason why they lean more Democratic because Trump ranted against them and in general Democrats are wearier about the pandemic.

As to transparency. I'm interested to know what you mean by that. There are not one but several safeguards in place for both mail-in votes and in-person votes. Both parties have people at the ballot places to monitor the elections. In most places where they count you can literally go online and watch them do it. When there are disputes recounts can be asked for and there are thousands of lawyers on both sides. What do you want exactly to make it more transparent?

I'm also interested to know where you get the idea that they are more difficult to audit?

Lastly... optics???? Not for nothing, we just saw a mob stopping the business of governing in an attempt to perform a coup ( not hyperbole but the only right description of breaking into the Capitol to stop the verification of the election results), as a direct result of the current President of the United States claiming the future one is illegitimate and asking the mob to march on the Capitol. As far as optics go, I can't think of much worse.

You want elections that people truly believe are legitimate? It's easy to do. You vote one of two ways! Either in person with a valid ID...or you vote by an absentee ballot that you're requested be sent to your address.

Let's be honest here. The reason the "optics" are so bad is that the process was changed because of politics to the point where people no longer TRUST it! Let's get back to elections that we can have faith in! Stop all the bullshit about voter exclusion. Secure the elections so we aren't counting votes for weeks afterwards and disputing counts as fraudulent.

The only reason the elections are considered fraudulent is because Trump has claimed they were in both election cycles. And the protest to voting by mail is equally started by Trump. It was encourag ed by the GOP before that.

I find it interesting that you guys all pretend this narrative started in a vacuum. I fail to see a reason why sending out ballots to the address of all eligible voters is deemed a security risk but requesting them isn't.

It is simply self serving.

As to voter trust being easy to accomplish. That's bs. Voter trust can only be accomplished if both sides accept that there's a possibility they'll lose. And before you start claiming that the Dems didn't accept 2016. Clinton conceded within hours once it became clear she lost. It was Trump who contested the results... even after he won. So don't pretend people will accept the results if you simply conduct the elections a certain way.

You don't see the difference between mailing out ballots to the address of all eligible voters from the last election and sending out absentee ballots to those who request them? Really? One is mailing blindly to an address that may or may not have that person still residing there. The other is mailing a ballot to a person that has requested it.

 

[forkup]

View attachment 439269

I agree that those who incited were acting out for an unacceptable reason.

Oh, you left out Trump's inciteful remarks, a picture of the mob in action, and a picture of the 4 dead people. I do agree with you, but just don't give sound bites.
Keep in mind that the ballots in those swing states were recounted ad nausea and no fraud was detected.

Some fraud was but not enough to overturn the results. The optics look bad. Mail in votes, which are more difficult to audit (not absentee ballots) lean heavily Democrat. Don't care about this election anymore. Its done. But future ones need to be more transparent.

Mail-in votes and absentee ballots is distinction without a difference. And the reason why they lean more Democratic because Trump ranted against them and in general Democrats are wearier about the pandemic.

As to transparency. I'm interested to know what you mean by that. There are not one but several safeguards in place for both mail-in votes and in-person votes. Both parties have people at the ballot places to monitor the elections. In most places where they count you can literally go online and watch them do it. When there are disputes recounts can be asked for and there are thousands of lawyers on both sides. What do you want exactly to make it more transparent?

I'm also interested to know where you get the idea that they are more difficult to audit?

Lastly... optics???? Not for nothing, we just saw a mob stopping the business of governing in an attempt to perform a coup ( not hyperbole but the only right description of breaking into the Capitol to stop the verification of the election results), as a direct result of the current President of the United States claiming the future one is illegitimate and asking the mob to march on the Capitol. As far as optics go, I can't think of much worse.

You want elections that people truly believe are legitimate? It's easy to do. You vote one of two ways! Either in person with a valid ID...or you vote by an absentee ballot that you're requested be sent to your address.

Let's be honest here. The reason the "optics" are so bad is that the process was changed because of politics to the point where people no longer TRUST it! Let's get back to elections that we can have faith in! Stop all the bullshit about voter exclusion. Secure the elections so we aren't counting votes for weeks afterwards and disputing counts as fraudulent.

The only reason the elections are considered fraudulent is because Trump has claimed they were in both election cycles. And the protest to voting by mail is equally started by Trump. It was encourag ed by the GOP before that.

I find it interesting that you guys all pretend this narrative started in a vacuum. I fail to see a reason why sending out ballots to the address of all eligible voters is deemed a security risk but requesting them isn't.

It is simply self serving.

As to voter trust being easy to accomplish. That's bs. Voter trust can only be accomplished if both sides accept that there's a possibility they'll lose. And before you start claiming that the Dems didn't accept 2016. Clinton conceded within hours once it became clear she lost. It was Trump who contested the results... even after he won. So don't pretend people will accept the results if you simply conduct the elections a certain way.

You don't see the difference between mailing out ballots to the address of all eligible voters from the last election and sending out absentee ballots to those who request them? Really? One is mailing blindly to an address that may or may not have that person still residing there. The other is mailing a ballot to a person that has requested it.

Adresses aren't some random thing. It's used for getting tax returns, it's used for receiving everything from junk mail to speeding tickets.

Just for arguments sake you get in a ballot for somebody who isn't residing at the adress. What do you do with it? Mail it yourself? What about the signature? You forge the signature? Congratulations you just committed a felony in the name of swinging one vote. And you better hope the person who was supposed to have gotten the ballot doesn't want to vote, because all it would take is this person to request a ballot from the address he now occupies and your voter fraud is discovered. How many people think one vote is worth going to jail? I'll venture a guess by saying. Not many.