Evolution question.

[CrusaderFrank]

Dude - read the fucking thread.

No, I'm not going to give you an education for free. Go to school for 12 years like I did.

Not even photons are "Random"!

The wave function collapses when it's observed, the Universe is NOT RANDOM.

 

[scruffy]

Not even photons are "Random"!

The wave function collapses when it's observed, the Universe is NOT RANDOM.

No, that is a false statement.

The wave function collapses when it is MEASURED.

Which is something completely different from being observed.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

No, that is a false statement.

The wave function collapses when it is MEASURED.

Which is something completely different from being observed.

Nope. When it is observed

 

[scruffy]

Nope. When it is observed

That is a false statement.

See?

You're like the leftards in the other thread.

You don't question.

You read a few words and jump to conclusions.

No. Science has determined it is the act of measurement that defines the state.

You must think, and question what you're reading.

THINK: since it is not possible to observe a mixed state directly, HOW are you going to observe it without measuring it?

The answer, is some of the most modern physics known to man. Which I'm sure you know nothing about. But you can learn. Google "sparse quantum measurement techniques". Don't stop reading at the first paper.

 

[zaangalewa]

It's nobody's duty to understand or try to understand stuff you make up out of thin air.

To call "thin hair" two totally different processes shows only that you do not know what you try to speak about.

 

[zaangalewa]

Selection is not random. Problem solved.

What's wrong. Sometimes something what happens is only good or bad luck without any deeper reason. That's how our world is created.

 

[scruffy]

if true would produce foxes and rabbits that could outrun a cheetah).

You ain't seen nothin yet

Let me show you something.

Do you know what a Bose-Einstein condensate is?

It is a special state of matter, often called a "fifth state of matter", usually observed near absolute zero temperature. All the nuclei adopt the same quantum state, you can describe the entire ensemble with a single wave function.

Bose–Einstein condensate - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Well, it turns out, plants do this exact same thing when they photosynthesize - except they do it AT ROOM TEMPERATURE.

Plants perform quantum mechanics feats that scientists can only do at ultra-cold temperatures

Plants pass energy along paths similar to those of a Bose-Einstein condensate, showing quantum properties at macroscopic scales.

bigthink.com

Plants do it enzymatically, on a tiny scale.

Where do you think IBM got its ideas for the 1000-qubit chip it just released?

Plants !

The chip works at room temperature, doesn't require liquid helium.

So think about the evolutionary niche that requires plants to turn sunlight into food.

This biochemical pathway is among the oldest and most highly conserved genetics we know of. It is also one of the most complex, using quantum tunneling and odd states of matter.

Photosynthesis is nearly 100% efficient. It would be impossibly difficult to attain this efficiency without quantum engagement. Furthermore the photosynthetic process has automatic gain control that keeps it from creating too much oxygen in high sunlight conditions.

Unraveling the Quantum Mysteries of Photosynthesis

Graham Fleming searches for answers in one of nature's "messiest" systems

kavlifoundation.org

If you look at the Calvin cycle, the molecules are all simple organic types commonly found in seawater.

Also interesting, is the non-photosynthetic light-energy conversion that occurs in aquatic bacteria, which is more closely related to the rhodopsins in the human eye.

Light-to-energy conversion in many aquatic microbes more complex than was previously known, researchers discover

Plants convert light into a form of energy that they can use—a molecule called adenosine triphosphate (ATP)—through photosynthesis. This is a complex process that also produces sugar, which the plant can use for energy later, and oxygen. Some bacteria that live in the light-exposed layers of...

phys.org

 

[zaangalewa]

The laws of physics

What's by the way a tautology. The laws of physics do not create the laws of physics. For to understand the laws of physics it needs "spirit".

Do you think massive objects beng spheroids instead of cubes is "random"? No.

Eh?

source: Prof. Blumes Medienangebot: Kristalle im Chemieunterricht

 

[zaangalewa]

... The ToE is among the best supported, most complete theories in science.

And often used in completely wrong contextes. Sometimes the theory of evolution makes sense - sometimes not and sometimes it is even totally wrong to use it. Cars for example do not evolve. Never did do so. It exists no evolution of cars - or an evolution of any other machines. Only our collective knowledge grows in this context and also customs and fashions are changing. But the source of this growth are human beings with wonderful intuitions and not structural modifications of genes. Or electromagnetism (="light" and/or radiation) for example also did not evolve. Electromagnetism froze out. Or "arts" on its own. Many people think arts evolves - but very good artists often say arts were perfect since arts had been born.

 

[zaangalewa]

Not even photons are "Random"!

The wave function collapses when it's observed,

The strange thing is only that no one has only a light idea about what really happens when we say so because it is totally clear that nature not needs human beings for the own existence.

the Universe is NOT RANDOM.

Not random? Perhaps diced with a coin which has no edge and no backside. For sure we do not know another universe. And we never will know.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

What's wrong. Sometimes something what happens is only good or bad luck without any deeper reason. That's how our world is created.

But selection is not random.

 

[zaangalewa]

But selection is not random.

The change of genetic information is able to be without any plan ("teleology") and without any intention ("random") - but the result of such changes is in most cases an individual disaster because such changes nearly never fit to all other functions of a body - which we need to live and/or to survive. In some cases such genetical changes mean nothing. And very very seldom they are positive.

I know for example from a change in the human genetics - if I remember well this has to do with the acceptance of milk as a foodstuff for grown ups - where one change was some million years ago, the next change was some hundred thousand years ago and the last change was some thousand years ago. The first two changes had no negative effect and the last change together with the first two changes had a positive effect. The combination of changes in the genes and fitness in the own body and outer world I see more as a kind of chaos. If this chaos is not in the nature then it is in our heads and in our own behavior. But this chaos is not automatically negative. It creates complexity. I say: "Life is often chaos. Order is often deadly."

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

The change of genetic information is able to be without any plan ("teleology") and without any intention ("random") - but the result of such changes is in most cases an individual disaster because such changes nearly never fit to all other functions of a body - which we need to live and/or to survive. In some cases such genetical changes mean nothing. And very very seldom they are positive.

I know for example from a change in the human genetics - if I remember well this has to do with the acceptance of milk as a foodstuff for grown ups - where one change was some million years ago, the next change was some hundred thousand years ago and the last change was some thousand years ago. The first two changes had no negative effect and the last change together with the first two changes had a positive effect. The combination of changes in the genes and fitness in the own body and outer world I see more as a kind of chaos. If this chaos is not in the nature then it is in our heads and in our own behavior. But this chaos is not automatically negative. It creates complexity. I say: "Life is often chaos. Order is often deadly."

But the selective pressures that operate are not chaotic ir random. Do bears and rabbits and birds in the northern latitudes come in "random" colors? No.

 

[zaangalewa]

But the selective pressures that operate are not chaotic ir random.

This is difficult to know. Chaos often looks like random before we find a key to see it. When you see for exampe the fraction digits of pi from position -100 millionth to -101 millionth then I am not sure you are able to find out that this is just simple a part of a circle.

Do bears and rabbits and birds in the northern latitudes come in "random" colors? No.

You misunderstand the play of random changes and the expression "fitting" from the philosopher Spencer which is used since the 5th edition of Darwins book about the "origin" of species. The essence of this theory is it that two living entities also always have a common ancestor - or in Christian words: also animals are our sisters and brothers. And this is latest since Saint Francis not new.

By the way. It's really a little strange - and wonderful - that the birds - the creatures of the air - have colors like a rainbow, while bears and rabbits - creations of the soil - have a white-fawn-brown-black color spectrum.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

This is difficult to know. Chaos often looks like random before we find a key to see it. When you see for exampe the fraction digits of pi from position -100 millionth to -101 millionth then I am not sure you are able to find out that this is just simple a part of a circle.



You misunderstand the play of random changes and the expression "fitting" from the philosopher Spencer which is used since the 5th edition of Darwins book about the "origin" of species. The essence of this theory is it that two living entities also always have a common ancestor - or in Christian words: also animals are our sisters and brothers. And this is latest since Saint Francis not new.

By the way. It's really a little strange - and wonderful - that the birds - the creatures of the air - have colors like a rainbow, while bears and rabbits - creations of the soil - have a white-fawn-brown-black color spectrum.

Mutations are random. Selection is not.

 

[zaangalewa]

Mutations are random.

Not necessarily.

Selection is not.

If you slip on a banana peel and suffer a fractured skull so you die then you have three probabilities that this will happen which are all together nearly impossible. But in this case your daughter Catherine not will be born - she was "selected" without that anyone ever knew anything about her and without any reason which has to do with her personally. We do not know what we miss because we do not miss her.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

Not necessarily.



If you slip on a banana peel and suffer a fractured skull so you die then you have three probabilities that this will happen which are all together nearly impossible. But in this case your daughter Catherine not will be born - she was "selected" without that anyone ever knew anything about her and without any reason which has to do with her personally. We do not know what we miss because we do not miss her.

That's not selection and does not affect an entire population.

Mutations are random. Yes, necessarily.

Selection is not random.

 

[zaangalewa]

That's not selection ...

Then take the selection of the Darwinist Nazis in Auschwitz-Birkenau and many other places as an example. My ancestors survived the disaster "Nazism" so I am alive. What have I to do with Nazism anf their Darwinism? Nothing or nothing? What do you really try to discuss? Nonsense, stupid nonsense or even deadly nonsense - or the real reality behind the real scientific theory of evolution?

 

[zaangalewa]

That's not selection and does not affect an entire population.

Catherine will not get the noble Nobel price in 2087 because she found a way to travel to the Andromeda galaxy and back in only one week. This will change life on Earth.

Mutations are random. Yes, necessarily.

What a nonsense. Because an effect is able to happen randomly doesn't mean this effect is not also able to happen un-randomly.

Selection is not random.

In the terror attack in the world trade center died thousands of people - what had absolutelly nothing to do with their biology. For them this had happened randomly - otherwise they had not been there. Darwinism is not the holy grail of science - which had been by the way a sauce boat or something like this in the first versions of this myth.

 

[scruffy]

But selection is not random.

Let's be more precise.

There are different kinds of random.

Gaussian, Poisson, Wiener process and so on.

What you may (probably) mean is selection isn't Gaussian, it doesn't seem to obey the law of large numbers, the underlying probability distribution has a distinctly non-Gaussian "shape".

The concept of "shape" of selection is useful. Because shape is structural, it's accessible mathematically.

Many scientists propose that compartmentation is the first essential step in biological evolution. The isolation of the contents of a cell, from its environment - and science has already shown how micelles form spontaneously in organic seawater. I suggest, that compartmentation leads immediately to a new selection pressure, which is information processing. Information can not be stored or processed without compartments, and if you think about it this way, motility becomes a form of information processing (moving things between compartments, kind of like a CPU).

Viewed from this perspective, information processing becomes an ATTRACTOR in evolution - it will always and immediately occur wherever there are compartments, because anything that can move things between compartments has significant advantages over those that can't.

Fast forward to the human brain, where nature has developed libraries to describe all the possible probability distributions underlying sequences of events (including causation). This capability is described in a rudimentary way by "information geometry".

Information geometry - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Information geometry uses linear combinations of Gaussian distributions to approximate arbitrary non-Gaussian ones. (The same is not true for Poisson-type processes, which are handled differently).