Explain to me, the lawful meaning of "SHALL"

[Harry Dresden]

1. The Second Amendment of the United States Constitution reads: "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms,Shall not be infringed"



2. "The little known tax code provision employed by the Democrats in demanding Mr. Trump’s returns says only that the Internal Revenue Service “shall furnish” the information, giving it and its parent agency, the Treasury Department, little leeway in deciding how to respond.

Link to above:

Trump Lawyer Asserts President’s Right to Keep Tax Returns Private

The Republican Party, the NRA and the Congress must decide if shall means mandatory, or not. The consequences are clear. Give Congress the president's taxes, or give the NRA and it's shall not be infringed a kick in the ass.

It's like saying "will"..

no its like saying may......must is like saying will....

 

[Oddball]

15 posts in USMB is easier than dictionary.com?

The human race is doomed.

There is a legal definition to the word, which interprets it as the permissive "may"....Orwellian as hell, but that's the way it is.

 

[Harry Dresden]

no its not mandatory,apparently only must is....shall is the same as may....so the gun rights may OR may not be infringed....and trumps taxes may or may not be furnished...

"Must" and "shall" mean the same legally....If there is an imperative, the language "is/are required" is used.

everything i just read said MUST is different than SHALL in documents...but i understand what you are saying....

 

[Oddball]

no its not mandatory,apparently only must is....shall is the same as may....so the gun rights may OR may not be infringed....and trumps taxes may or may not be furnished...

"Must" and "shall" mean the same legally....If there is an imperative, the language "is/are required" is used.

everything i just read said MUST is different than SHALL in documents...but i understand what you are saying....

I actually have a hard copy of Black's Law Dictionary and looked up these terms years ago...."Must" and "shall" are, for all legal purposes, synonymous...The imperative language that is binding is "are/is required"...The instructions for tax forms will never read the same once you take this linguistic red pill.

 

[Blues Man]

1. The Second Amendment of the United States Constitution reads: "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms,Shall not be infringed"



2. "The little known tax code provision employed by the Democrats in demanding Mr. Trump’s returns says only that the Internal Revenue Service “shall furnish” the information, giving it and its parent agency, the Treasury Department, little leeway in deciding how to respond.

Link to above:

Trump Lawyer Asserts President’s Right to Keep Tax Returns Private

The Republican Party, the NRA and the Congress must decide if shall means mandatory, or not. The consequences are clear. Give Congress the president's taxes, or give the NRA and it's shall not be infringed a kick in the ass.

Do you have the actual tax code?

26 U.S. Code § 6103 - Confidentiality and disclosure of returns and return information

It says that if the tax information requested identifies any tax payer that the information will only be released to the committee if sitting in private session.

And I take it that also means the people sitting on that committee cannot disclose the information

 

[Bruce_T_Laney]

1. The Second Amendment of the United States Constitution reads: "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms,Shall not be infringed"



2. "The little known tax code provision employed by the Democrats in demanding Mr. Trump’s returns says only that the Internal Revenue Service “shall furnish” the information, giving it and its parent agency, the Treasury Department, little leeway in deciding how to respond.

Link to above:

Trump Lawyer Asserts President’s Right to Keep Tax Returns Private

The Republican Party, the NRA and the Congress must decide if shall means mandatory, or not. The consequences are clear. Give Congress the president's taxes, or give the NRA and it's shall not be infringed a kick in the ass.

See had it been me I would have ordered for the tax returns of Bill Clinton, George W. Bush, Barack Obama and Donald Trump, so then when anyone scream witchhunt then I have my excuse covered.

Also, why do they need the six years seeing Trump has been President for a little over two years?

The reason they want to prove Trump is Putin agent...

 

[Marion Morrison]

15 posts in USMB is easier than dictionary.com?

The human race is doomed.

There is a legal definition to the word, which interprets it as the permissive "may"....Orwellian as hell, but that's the way it is.

We live in Oceania don't ya know.

 

[Stormy Daniels]

1. The Second Amendment of the United States Constitution reads: "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms,Shall not be infringed"



2. "The little known tax code provision employed by the Democrats in demanding Mr. Trump’s returns says only that the Internal Revenue Service “shall furnish” the information, giving it and its parent agency, the Treasury Department, little leeway in deciding how to respond.

Link to above:

Trump Lawyer Asserts President’s Right to Keep Tax Returns Private

The Republican Party, the NRA and the Congress must decide if shall means mandatory, or not. The consequences are clear. Give Congress the president's taxes, or give the NRA and it's shall not be infringed a kick in the ass.

You're barking up the wrong tree. The use of "shall" in the second amendment is (like the rest of the constitution) predominantly an artistic construction.

In modern legal-speak, the only word that imparts a firm obligation is "must". The word "shall" is considered ambiguous and results in confusion. In fact, use of "shall" is the single greatest cause of litigation in the United States. Its meaning can readily be either will, may, or must. And as a result, its use in statutory text typically results in the meaning rendered as "may".

 

[progressive hunter]

1. The Second Amendment of the United States Constitution reads: "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms,Shall not be infringed"



2. "The little known tax code provision employed by the Democrats in demanding Mr. Trump’s returns says only that the Internal Revenue Service “shall furnish” the information, giving it and its parent agency, the Treasury Department, little leeway in deciding how to respond.

Link to above:

Trump Lawyer Asserts President’s Right to Keep Tax Returns Private

The Republican Party, the NRA and the Congress must decide if shall means mandatory, or not. The consequences are clear. Give Congress the president's taxes, or give the NRA and it's shall not be infringed a kick in the ass.

You're barking up the wrong tree. The use of "shall" in the second amendment is (like the rest of the constitution) predominantly an artistic construction.

In modern legal-speak, the only word that imparts a firm obligation is "must". The word "shall" is considered ambiguous and results in confusion. In fact, use of "shall" is the single greatest cause of litigation in the United States. Its meaning can readily be either will, may, or must. And as a result, its use in statutory text typically results in the meaning rendered as "may".

but the constitution wasnt written in modern legal speak,,,and the time it was written they both have the same meaning,,,

 

[Wry Catcher]

1. The Second Amendment of the United States Constitution reads: "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms,Shall not be infringed"



2. "The little known tax code provision employed by the Democrats in demanding Mr. Trump’s returns says only that the Internal Revenue Service “shall furnish” the information, giving it and its parent agency, the Treasury Department, little leeway in deciding how to respond.

Link to above:

Trump Lawyer Asserts President’s Right to Keep Tax Returns Private

The Republican Party, the NRA and the Congress must decide if shall means mandatory, or not. The consequences are clear. Give Congress the president's taxes, or give the NRA and it's shall not be infringed a kick in the ass.

from plainlanguage.gov
"Must" is the only word that imposes a legal obligation that something is mandatory. the Supreme Court ruled that when the word "shall" appears in statutes, it means "may."....must and shall are not supposed to be used together in the same regulation....

So...is "shall not be infringed not mandatory, and can the Sect. of the Treasury able to keep the tax records of Trump secret? It can't be one or the other though I'm sure trump supporters will try.

Congress has no judicial authority. they can bark all night, and all it will be is annoying.

Neither does the executive. Only the Supreme Court has that authority:

“The judicial power of the United States, shall be vested in one Supreme Court, and in such inferior courts as the Congress may from time to time ordain and establish.”

Keep in mind, the Executive does not have legislative power, and EO's are not laws, they are only policies and can be overruled by The Congress.

Why do the supporters of Trump believe he is above the law. Keep in mind John Mitchell, and AG Barr ought to too.

John Mitchell | attorney general of United States

 

[jc456]

1. The Second Amendment of the United States Constitution reads: "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms,Shall not be infringed"



2. "The little known tax code provision employed by the Democrats in demanding Mr. Trump’s returns says only that the Internal Revenue Service “shall furnish” the information, giving it and its parent agency, the Treasury Department, little leeway in deciding how to respond.

Link to above:

Trump Lawyer Asserts President’s Right to Keep Tax Returns Private

The Republican Party, the NRA and the Congress must decide if shall means mandatory, or not. The consequences are clear. Give Congress the president's taxes, or give the NRA and it's shall not be infringed a kick in the ass.

from plainlanguage.gov
"Must" is the only word that imposes a legal obligation that something is mandatory. the Supreme Court ruled that when the word "shall" appears in statutes, it means "may."....must and shall are not supposed to be used together in the same regulation....

So...is "shall not be infringed not mandatory, and can the Sect. of the Treasury able to keep the tax records of Trump secret? It can't be one or the other though I'm sure trump supporters will try.

Congress has no judicial authority. they can bark all night, and all it will be is annoying.

Neither does the executive. Only the Supreme Court has that authority:

“The judicial power of the United States, shall be vested in one Supreme Court, and in such inferior courts as the Congress may from time to time ordain and establish.”

Keep in mind, the Executive does not have legislative power, and EO's are not laws, they are only policies and can be overruled by The Congress.

Why do the supporters of Trump believe he is above the law. Keep in mind John Mitchell, and AG Barr ought to too.

John Mitchell | attorney general of United States

well actually the DOJ does. but why would you care, facts ain't your thing.

 

[Darkwind]

1. The Second Amendment of the United States Constitution reads: "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms,Shall not be infringed"



2. "The little known tax code provision employed by the Democrats in demanding Mr. Trump’s returns says only that the Internal Revenue Service “shall furnish” the information, giving it and its parent agency, the Treasury Department, little leeway in deciding how to respond.

Link to above:

Trump Lawyer Asserts President’s Right to Keep Tax Returns Private

The Republican Party, the NRA and the Congress must decide if shall means mandatory, or not. The consequences are clear. Give Congress the president's taxes, or give the NRA and it's shall not be infringed a kick in the ass.

from plainlanguage.gov
"Must" is the only word that imposes a legal obligation that something is mandatory. the Supreme Court ruled that when the word "shall" appears in statutes, it means "may."....must and shall are not supposed to be used together in the same regulation....

So...is "shall not be infringed not mandatory, and can the Sect. of the Treasury able to keep the tax records of Trump secret? It can't be one or the other though I'm sure trump supporters will try.

Congress has no judicial authority. they can bark all night, and all it will be is annoying.

Neither does the executive. Only the Supreme Court has that authority:

“The judicial power of the United States, shall be vested in one Supreme Court, and in such inferior courts as the Congress may from time to time ordain and establish.”

Keep in mind, the Executive does not have legislative power, and EO's are not laws, they are only policies and can be overruled by The Congress.

Why do the supporters of Trump believe he is above the law. Keep in mind John Mitchell, and AG Barr ought to too.

John Mitchell | attorney general of United States

You mean like DACA? Why yes, it can be repealed by the next President.

 

[Natural Citizen]

What is deemed Legal is very, very seldom Lawful.

 

[Wry Catcher]

no its not mandatory,apparently only must is....shall is the same as may....so the gun rights may OR may not be infringed....and trumps taxes may or may not be furnished...

"Must" and "shall" mean the same legally....If there is an imperative, the language "is/are required" is used.

So, the use of the word shall is once again an example of the ambiguity of the Constitution, and will be up to the Supreme Court.

Once again Marbury v, Madison will decide the Shall issue, something the singers of the Constitution did not include in COTUS, and its definition will likely be decided 5-4 in Trump's favor.

BTW, Executive Privilege does not exist in COTUS,, nor are Executive Orders.

Odd isn't it that one group of lawyers believe the words must be taken a face value, and others that the document is a living Constitution.

 

[Darkwind]

no its not mandatory,apparently only must is....shall is the same as may....so the gun rights may OR may not be infringed....and trumps taxes may or may not be furnished...

"Must" and "shall" mean the same legally....If there is an imperative, the language "is/are required" is used.

So, the use of the word shall is once again an example of the ambiguity of the Constitution, and will be up to the Supreme Court.

Once again Marbury v, Madison will decide the Shall issue, something the singers of the Constitution did not include in COTUS, and its definition will likely be decided 5-4 in Trump's favor.

BTW, Executive Privilege does not exist in COTUS,, nor are Executive Orders.

The separation of powers IS in the COTUS, and executive privilege is part of that separation. The Legislature has oversight, but not CONTROL of the Executive and the President has the power to be advised without fear of prosecution by the legislature or the Judiciary.

 

[Wry Catcher]

1. The Second Amendment of the United States Constitution reads: "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms,Shall not be infringed"



2. "The little known tax code provision employed by the Democrats in demanding Mr. Trump’s returns says only that the Internal Revenue Service “shall furnish” the information, giving it and its parent agency, the Treasury Department, little leeway in deciding how to respond.

Link to above:

Trump Lawyer Asserts President’s Right to Keep Tax Returns Private

The Republican Party, the NRA and the Congress must decide if shall means mandatory, or not. The consequences are clear. Give Congress the president's taxes, or give the NRA and it's shall not be infringed a kick in the ass.

from plainlanguage.gov
"Must" is the only word that imposes a legal obligation that something is mandatory. the Supreme Court ruled that when the word "shall" appears in statutes, it means "may."....must and shall are not supposed to be used together in the same regulation....

So...is "shall not be infringed not mandatory, and can the Sect. of the Treasury able to keep the tax records of Trump secret? It can't be one or the other though I'm sure trump supporters will try.

Congress has no judicial authority. they can bark all night, and all it will be is annoying.

Neither does the executive. Only the Supreme Court has that authority:

“The judicial power of the United States, shall be vested in one Supreme Court, and in such inferior courts as the Congress may from time to time ordain and establish.”

Keep in mind, the Executive does not have legislative power, and EO's are not laws, they are only policies and can be overruled by The Congress.

Why do the supporters of Trump believe he is above the law. Keep in mind John Mitchell, and AG Barr ought to too.

John Mitchell | attorney general of United States

well actually the DOJ does. but why would you care, facts ain't your thing.

BULLSHIT ^^^

They investigate and prosecute, the trier of fact is under the control of the Judge, and the decision rendered by the judge or the jury.

BTW, the Judiciary Committee just now voted 24 -16 to hold Barr in Contempt.

 

[progressive hunter]

no its not mandatory,apparently only must is....shall is the same as may....so the gun rights may OR may not be infringed....and trumps taxes may or may not be furnished...

"Must" and "shall" mean the same legally....If there is an imperative, the language "is/are required" is used.

So, the use of the word shall is once again an example of the ambiguity of the Constitution, and will be up to the Supreme Court.

Once again Marbury v, Madison will decide the Shall issue, something the singers of the Constitution did not include in COTUS, and its definition will likely be decided 5-4 in Trump's favor.

BTW, Executive Privilege does not exist in COTUS,, nor are Executive Orders.

Odd isn't it that one group of lawyers believe the words must be taken a face value, and others that the document is a living Constitution.

what is trumps favor??? and what does he have to do with it???
hes is anti 2nd amendment after all,,,,

 

[Olde Europe]

1. The Second Amendment of the United States Constitution reads: "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms,Shall not be infringed"



2. "The little known tax code provision employed by the Democrats in demanding Mr. Trump’s returns says only that the Internal Revenue Service “shall furnish” the information, giving it and its parent agency, the Treasury Department, little leeway in deciding how to respond.

Link to above:

Trump Lawyer Asserts President’s Right to Keep Tax Returns Private

The Republican Party, the NRA and the Congress must decide if shall means mandatory, or not. The consequences are clear. Give Congress the president's taxes, or give the NRA and it's shall not be infringed a kick in the ass.

Interesting. I always thought "shall" to mean "mandatory". What did I know:

shall

v. 1) an imperative command as in "you shall not kill."

2) in some statutes, "shall" is a direction but does not mean mandatory, depending on the context.​

It's a pity, really, for if "shall" changes its meaning contingent on the "context", whatever that's supposed to mean, our righty friends are still not required to interpret your examples the same way. Still, watching them tying themselves in knots finding some "context" to justify different interpretations shall be fun.

 

[Oddball]

no its not mandatory,apparently only must is....shall is the same as may....so the gun rights may OR may not be infringed....and trumps taxes may or may not be furnished...

"Must" and "shall" mean the same legally....If there is an imperative, the language "is/are required" is used.

So, the use of the word shall is once again an example of the ambiguity of the Constitution, and will be up to the Supreme Court.

Once again Marbury v, Madison will decide the Shall issue, something the singers of the Constitution did not include in COTUS, and its definition will likely be decided 5-4 in Trump's favor.

BTW, Executive Privilege does not exist in COTUS,, nor are Executive Orders.

Odd isn't it that one group of lawyers believe the words must be taken a face value, and others that the document is a living Constitution.

Wrong again, psycho.

The layman's version of the legal definition of "shall" (and also "must", BTW) is that it takes on the permissive meaning "may" (which by extension you may not), when the imperative interpretation of the word causes you to surrender your rights...The right to bear arms included.

I've studied this area of the law comprehensively and you have not....You have NFI what you're blabbering about....again.

 

[rightwinger]

1. The Second Amendment of the United States Constitution reads: "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms,Shall not be infringed"



2. "The little known tax code provision employed by the Democrats in demanding Mr. Trump’s returns says only that the Internal Revenue Service “shall furnish” the information, giving it and its parent agency, the Treasury Department, little leeway in deciding how to respond.

Link to above:

Trump Lawyer Asserts President’s Right to Keep Tax Returns Private

The Republican Party, the NRA and the Congress must decide if shall means mandatory, or not. The consequences are clear. Give Congress the president's taxes, or give the NRA and it's shall not be infringed a kick in the ass.

We need more well regulated militias