Explain to us Libs, what is a living wage?

[Foxfyre]

Not so long ago, I was privileged to hear the story of a Vietnamese immigrant who came into the USA with little more than a sponsor and a job waiting for him. Shortly after his arrival, the sponsor was killed in an accident and the job disappeared with him. The only work the immigrant could find was picking vegetables on a local farm so that is what he did. It was at near starvation wages but he didn't care.

However, the foreman noticed that he took great care to pick only the ripe vegetables and was careful in how he handled them so as not to bruise them. He arrived early for work and stayed late and was highly productive. Before long he was promoted to foreman, a position at which he also excelled and eventually manager. By living frugally and saving every dime he could, he was able to acquire enough venture capital to start his own business. The business is in its third year and is thriving. He recently married and is expecting his first child.

I found myself wondering how many Americans would be willing to do what he did to achieve the American dream? But he is living proof that it is still possible to achieve it when you expect to do it all on merit and not be given anything.

Link it.

You don't read very well do you.

 

[DontBeStupid]

Not so long ago, I was privileged to hear the story of a Vietnamese immigrant who came into the USA with little more than a sponsor and a job waiting for him. Shortly after his arrival, the sponsor was killed in an accident and the job disappeared with him. The only work the immigrant could find was picking vegetables on a local farm so that is what he did. It was at near starvation wages but he didn't care.

However, the foreman noticed that he took great care to pick only the ripe vegetables and was careful in how he handled them so as not to bruise them. He arrived early for work and stayed late and was highly productive. Before long he was promoted to foreman, a position at which he also excelled and eventually manager. By living frugally and saving every dime he could, he was able to acquire enough venture capital to start his own business. The business is in its third year and is thriving. He recently married and is expecting his first child.

I found myself wondering how many Americans would be willing to do what he did to achieve the American dream? But he is living proof that it is still possible to achieve it when you expect to do it all on merit and not be given anything.

Also, when did the American Dream become about raising venture capital and starting your own business?

 

[DiamondDave]

Pardon me, but that is pure and utter bullshit. If they follow what I did, they will succeed as much as they want to. My 18 year old college freshman son is following our example and is studying a specialized field where companies are waiting for the kids to graduate and paying them very well right out of college. My nephew who is a couple of years older has a garage band that plays weekend gigs for beer money, is a clerk in a retail store and drops out of the one or two classes he enrolls in.......but he's happy as a stoned clam at this stage in life. Ten years from now....not so much and he'll be one of the have nots bitching about the haves and saying it isn't "fair". Life is about choices and you will live by the choices you make.

Bingo

And the great thing is... we have the freedom to fail or succeed all on our own choices...

If you think you fail or succeed purely on your choices alone, then you're going to have some painful growing up coming your way.

Hardly, putz...

I have changed fields 3 times during my career.. and will change again if I feel it is warranted or necessary... my choices have got me where I am... my own training, my own skills, my own effort, my own reputation, EVERYTHING ON ME... and if I make a poor choice, as I have with some companies I joined over the years, THAT is on me as well... and I have learned from those mistakes, researching companies who have an interest in my skills... and I have made the CHOICE not to join some over the years...

You sir (and I use that term lightly), are an idiot

 

[DontBeStupid]

Not so long ago, I was privileged to hear the story of a Vietnamese immigrant who came into the USA with little more than a sponsor and a job waiting for him. Shortly after his arrival, the sponsor was killed in an accident and the job disappeared with him. The only work the immigrant could find was picking vegetables on a local farm so that is what he did. It was at near starvation wages but he didn't care.

However, the foreman noticed that he took great care to pick only the ripe vegetables and was careful in how he handled them so as not to bruise them. He arrived early for work and stayed late and was highly productive. Before long he was promoted to foreman, a position at which he also excelled and eventually manager. By living frugally and saving every dime he could, he was able to acquire enough venture capital to start his own business. The business is in its third year and is thriving. He recently married and is expecting his first child.

I found myself wondering how many Americans would be willing to do what he did to achieve the American dream? But he is living proof that it is still possible to achieve it when you expect to do it all on merit and not be given anything.

Link it.

You don't read very well do you.

I read your works of fiction very well, thank you.

 

[DontBeStupid]

Bingo

And the great thing is... we have the freedom to fail or succeed all on our own choices...

If you think you fail or succeed purely on your choices alone, then you're going to have some painful growing up coming your way.

Hardly, putz...

I have changed fields 3 times during my career.. and will change again if I feel it is warranted or necessary... my choices have got me where I am... my own training, my own skills, my own effort, my own reputation, EVERYTHING ON ME... and if I make a poor choice, as I have with some companies I joined over the years, THAT is on me as well... and I have learned from those mistakes, researching companies who have an interest in my skills... and I have made the CHOICE not to join some over the years...

You sir (and I use that term lightly), are an idiot

Well, when you graduate high school and join the work force for real, then you'll see things differently.

 

[oreo]

If it takes 15.00 an hour to have a "living" wage, well I really dont have an issue with that except that really all your doing is raising the cost to build a widget, or grow a widget to a point in which the 8.00 an hour becomes 15.00 an hour it seems to me
What is a living wage?

According to the Occupy whatever protesters--it' $20.00 per hour.

Lloyd Hart--Master occupier--in a radio interview

http://www.969bostontalks.com/podcast/Episodes.aspx?PID=1468

 

[DiamondDave]

If you think you fail or succeed purely on your choices alone, then you're going to have some painful growing up coming your way.

Hardly, putz...

I have changed fields 3 times during my career.. and will change again if I feel it is warranted or necessary... my choices have got me where I am... my own training, my own skills, my own effort, my own reputation, EVERYTHING ON ME... and if I make a poor choice, as I have with some companies I joined over the years, THAT is on me as well... and I have learned from those mistakes, researching companies who have an interest in my skills... and I have made the CHOICE not to join some over the years...

You sir (and I use that term lightly), are an idiot

Well, when you graduate high school and join the work force for real, then you'll see things differently.

You're funny, son....

My kids are in that situation... and learned their lessons from me, thru my food service, entertainment, military, technology, and management portions of my career... and know that their choices mean the difference between success or failure.. and while they are free to make those choices, they have to live with the consequences of them.. and nobody, and I mean NOBODY, owes them a goddamn thing in their adult lives

You are more of an imbecile than previously thought.. and THAT is saying something

 

[Sky Dancer]

Yep, some people only admire those who work for nothing, and "know their place".

 

[Foxfyre]

I'm well acquainted with the middle class. Been there for 54 years because my parents made the right choices and then I followed their example. I got an education, kept my nose clean, worked hard and moved to better jobs and pay over time.

Good. Congratulations.

The problem with this country, though, is that if the younger generation follows what you did through life, they will end up much lower than middle class. That trend needs to be reversed.

Pardon me, but that is pure and utter bullshit. If they follow what I did, they will succeed as much as they want to. My 18 year old college freshman son is following our example and is studying a specialized field where companies are waiting for the kids to graduate and paying them very well right out of college. My nephew who is a couple of years older has a garage band that plays weekend gigs for beer money, is a clerk in a retail store and drops out of the one or two classes he enrolls in.......but he's happy as a stoned clam at this stage in life. Ten years from now....not so much and he'll be one of the have nots bitching about the haves and saying it isn't "fair". Life is about choices and you will live by the choices you make.

That is something many of our modern generation just don't buy. When Mr. Foxfyre and I married, we scoured the used furniture stores to furnish our first rented home--used concrete blocks and boards for bookshelves. We did buy an inexpensive but brand new couch and felt rich. There were many times that the money ran out before the week and all we could afford for groceries was beans and hamburger (hamburger was 50 cents a lb in those days) but we knew in our hearts that it would get better. There were no rich relaives to leave us an inheritance and no government programs providing hand outs, etc. so what we had we had to earn.

But it did get better. And then good.

Mr. Foxfyre has changed professions six times since I knew him and there have been even more 'career' changes for me. In all but a few of those, we took reduced income while we learned the ropes in the new place. Many times we each worked more than one job.

Now we are retired and while by no means rich, are quite comfortable. During all that we were able to provide our kids with some advantages, see them through college, and each now by themselves earn more than Mr. Foxfyre and I were able to earn together. And each have changed careers three or more times since they have been in the work force.

For those who expect to achieve and excel, the opportunity is still there. You may have to swallow your pride and take work you don't want to do, you may have to work for less than what you want to earn for awhile, and you may have to rethink what you want to be when you grow up. But it can be done.

 

[Kuros]

Not so long ago, I was privileged to hear the story of a Vietnamese immigrant who came into the USA with little more than a sponsor and a job waiting for him. Shortly after his arrival, the sponsor was killed in an accident and the job disappeared with him. The only work the immigrant could find was picking vegetables on a local farm so that is what he did. It was at near starvation wages but he didn't care.

However, the foreman noticed that he took great care to pick only the ripe vegetables and was careful in how he handled them so as not to bruise them. He arrived early for work and stayed late and was highly productive. Before long he was promoted to foreman, a position at which he also excelled and eventually manager. By living frugally and saving every dime he could, he was able to acquire enough venture capital to start his own business. The business is in its third year and is thriving. He recently married and is expecting his first child.

I found myself wondering how many Americans would be willing to do what he did to achieve the American dream? But he is living proof that it is still possible to achieve it when you expect to do it all on merit and not be given anything.

I bolded the part where he depended on the generosity and wisdom of his employer.

I'm skeptical that today the majority of people in such positions wouldn't be simply taken advantage of.

 

[Foxfyre]

Not so long ago, I was privileged to hear the story of a Vietnamese immigrant who came into the USA with little more than a sponsor and a job waiting for him. Shortly after his arrival, the sponsor was killed in an accident and the job disappeared with him. The only work the immigrant could find was picking vegetables on a local farm so that is what he did. It was at near starvation wages but he didn't care.

However, the foreman noticed that he took great care to pick only the ripe vegetables and was careful in how he handled them so as not to bruise them. He arrived early for work and stayed late and was highly productive. Before long he was promoted to foreman, a position at which he also excelled and eventually manager. By living frugally and saving every dime he could, he was able to acquire enough venture capital to start his own business. The business is in its third year and is thriving. He recently married and is expecting his first child.

I found myself wondering how many Americans would be willing to do what he did to achieve the American dream? But he is living proof that it is still possible to achieve it when you expect to do it all on merit and not be given anything.

I bolded the part where he depended on the generosity and wisdom of his employer.

I'm skeptical that today the majority of people in such positions wouldn't be simply taken advantage of.

In some cases I'm sure that happens. But in most cases, the employer is in business to make money and, if you can keep the unions and meddlers out of it, the productive employee is noticed and rewarded because he is making more money for his employer. Most of my life when working for the other guy, I have had bosses who appreciated and rewarded good work. I have been the boss and I definitely noticed, appreciated, and rewarded good work.

And I have worked for some assholes but never longer than I absolutely had to before I moved on to something else.

It has been my observation, however, that the business run by the asshole generally does not prosper as much as the business run by those who utilize good stewardship of their assets which would include hard working productive employees.

 

[Bern80]

If he's making tons of money and paying his workers crap to the point they need tax payer services, then it is VERY much business. If he pays them more then government spending comes down, and I think reducing government spending is very important to a lot of people.

You can't set up make believe scenarios that don't exist to make your point. First 'crap' is relative. Secondly you clearly don't understand what a market is. That's when two sides come together and reach an agreement on an exchange for goods and services. If an employer offers a wage that you may deem 'crap', but enough people are willing to take the job anyway then by definition their is no unfairness in that.

As far as reducing government spending, how about government just reduce spending. It isn't some CEO's problem that the federal government's accounting and fiscal management sucks.

This is why I talk about a tax break for the ratio of salaries. Pay the top guy whatever you want. I don't care! $100M annually! Go to town! All I'm saying is pay the guy at the bottom a fair ratio, because if you don't, tax payers will have to help him out, which isn't fair to them, so then the company pays more taxes to help that guy out.

I don't understand why people are so terrified of a corporation paying some workers more. Why does that scare you?

It doesn't. All of us would like to make more. But there is the law of unintended consequences and those of you pushing this living wage appear to blind as bats to them. The free market has a mechanism for determining what is fair. It occurs when two parties agree on compensation for service. If the skills you provide become more valuable you will get paid more, it's that simple. But you can't artificially raise someone's compensation irregardless of the value they provide. All you do when you do that for very low income earners, is create a new bottom. Everything else ends up going up with it.

 

[Sky Dancer]

Some of you criticising workers have likely been born with silver spoons in your mouths.

I come from working class stock. We have work ethic AND believe in worker's rights.

 

[DontBeStupid]

The free market has a mechanism for determining what is fair. It occurs when two parties agree on compensation for service. If the skills you provide become more valuable you will get paid more, it's that simple.

Ah yes. Faith-based economics. Gotta love it.

Perhaps you can explain to us, how is that American workers have gotten more and more productive over the past few decades, while wages have been virtually stagnant? According to your assessment, as skills increase so do wages. Why didn't that happen then?

 

[Foxfyre]

The free market has a mechanism for determining what is fair. It occurs when two parties agree on compensation for service. If the skills you provide become more valuable you will get paid more, it's that simple.

Ah yes. Faith-based economics. Gotta love it.

Perhaps you can explain to us, how is that American workers have gotten more and more productive over the past few decades, while wages have been virtually stagnant? According to your assessment, as skills increase so do wages. Why didn't that happen then?

Wages have not been stagnant. The productive, valuable employee continues to increase his earning power now as much as he did before. However, government meddling, oppressive unions, punative taxation, regulation, and mandates have driven more and more of our higher paying jobs overseas to more business friendly climates. And much of what is left are lower paying jobs, most in the service industry, that cannot be outsourced.

Get government out of the way of the free market, and a lot of those higher paying jobs will come home.

The free market works. Government interference, however, can short circuit the free market and that is almost never to the benefit of the people as a whole.

 

[grunt11b]

What happens when employers build Widgets and don't pay a wage their employees can support their families on?

The taxpayer steps in and subsidizes food, housing and healthcare for that family. Employer gets to profit off of cheap widgets.....taxpayers make up the difference

Maybe the employee should not except a wage they cannot live on to begin with, then the employer would either have to go out of business or pay a wage that is livable on. Maybe the lazy downtrodden should look at furthering their education so that they can get a job that pays a wage they can live on and keep the government out of the business of being big brother. You know, that whole responsibility for yourself thing that the rest of us participate in.

 

[kwc57]

Good. Congratulations.

The problem with this country, though, is that if the younger generation follows what you did through life, they will end up much lower than middle class. That trend needs to be reversed.

Pardon me, but that is pure and utter bullshit. If they follow what I did, they will succeed as much as they want to. My 18 year old college freshman son is following our example and is studying a specialized field where companies are waiting for the kids to graduate and paying them very well right out of college. My nephew who is a couple of years older has a garage band that plays weekend gigs for beer money, is a clerk in a retail store and drops out of the one or two classes he enrolls in.......but he's happy as a stoned clam at this stage in life. Ten years from now....not so much and he'll be one of the have nots bitching about the haves and saying it isn't "fair". Life is about choices and you will live by the choices you make.

And 10 years from now when your son's field is obsolete and his job is "down sized" so the CEO can get a fatter check, what then? Will he just jump into a new field of study? Or maybe he doesn't get "down sized" but instead his insurance is cut to lower costs for the business or his wages are held stagnant for 5 years so the shareholders can enjoy higher dividends. What then? Will he still be cheering about how awesome his life is?

And yes, I am well aware that you think the scenarios I just presented never happen anywhere ever.

I'm beginning to think that you are about 19 years old and either buying into the crap that some professor is telling you or paying way to much attention to the OWC crowd. Some fields don't become obsolete, some do. Many change and you adapt to them. Again, this is about choices. My sons field is fire protection and safety technology. Just about every industry and/or corporation out there needs experts in fire and safety. The degree covers everything from actual fire service (firemen) to fire suppression systems (design, analysis, installation, etc.) to hazardous materials. It is a diverse field used by a diverse range of companies. Unless someone comes up with a way to make fire and safety obsolete, the field will never become obsolete. Kind of like doctors. Do you see the medical profession becoming obsolete in your life time?

You need to understand, I'm 54 and I've been in the workforce for almost 40 years. I've worked for companies where I was downsized because business was bad, but never so the CEO could make more money. Up until last year, I went about 3 years without an increase because of a downturn in business. Everyone from the CEO on down was frozen. When they finally could, they gave increases that amounted to 2% or less. It had nothing to do with giving shareholders a larger dividend. It had everything to do with staying in business. My insurance? It goes up each year and I pay more each year. 30 years ago, most employers paid the total cost. Today, they pay a portion. But that isn't because my cold heartless employer is cutting the amount they pay so they can make even more money. It's because the level of care and technology keeps rising and so does what you have to pay for it.

Look, my dad worked his ass off at a blue collar job to put a roof over 4 kids heads, food in our belley and clothes on our back. Anyone who thinks it was "easier" back then is stoopid beyond belief. It was just as hard. Just a few years out of college and my pay had surpassed my dad's after he had been working a union job for 32 years. I fully expect my son to do the same within the next 10 years. He's doing all the right things to get there. Can bad things happen along the way? Sure they can. From the time I got out of college, I had good companies I worked for that paid good money go belly up about every 5 years. I've been with my current company for 15 years now and it looks like it is going to go strong for some time, but I have no illusions that that could change at any time. I will say that in the 30+ years I've been out of college, even with 3 companies folding up beneath me, I have never gone a single day without work in my field. I had another job lined up before my end date.

It really is about choices, preparation and making your own luck.

 

[grunt11b]

So if Walmart paid their employees more money it would go from being Walmart prices to being Barney's 5th ave prices?

You know how dumb that sounds? The free market wouldnt have that and would just shop elsewhere, which is the incentive for Walmart to keep their prices low

Maybe, what we need is a society where more money is used to pay people at the bottom of the pyramid, and less at the top of the pyramid. Then, prices don't have to rise after all.

Or maybe people could use the energy that they do bitching about not getting freebies and use it to actually try to better there lives through self improvement instead of expecting shit for nothing.

 

[DontBeStupid]

The free market has a mechanism for determining what is fair. It occurs when two parties agree on compensation for service. If the skills you provide become more valuable you will get paid more, it's that simple.

Ah yes. Faith-based economics. Gotta love it.

Perhaps you can explain to us, how is that American workers have gotten more and more productive over the past few decades, while wages have been virtually stagnant? According to your assessment, as skills increase so do wages. Why didn't that happen then?

Wages have not been stagnant. The productive, valuable employee continues to increase his earning power now as much as he did before. However, government meddling, oppressive unions, punative taxation, regulation, and mandates have driven more and more of our higher paying jobs overseas to more business friendly climates. And much of what is left are lower paying jobs, most in the service industry, that cannot be outsourced.

Get government out of the way of the free market, and a lot of those higher paying jobs will come home.

The free market works. Government interference, however, can short circuit the free market and that is almost never to the benefit of the people as a whole.

Hmm. You know I don't see a whole lot of growth there on the bottom percentiles. It's almost like they're stagnant. But you claim they aren't.

Please to explain.

 

[Kuros]

Not so long ago, I was privileged to hear the story of a Vietnamese immigrant who came into the USA with little more than a sponsor and a job waiting for him. Shortly after his arrival, the sponsor was killed in an accident and the job disappeared with him. The only work the immigrant could find was picking vegetables on a local farm so that is what he did. It was at near starvation wages but he didn't care.

However, the foreman noticed that he took great care to pick only the ripe vegetables and was careful in how he handled them so as not to bruise them. He arrived early for work and stayed late and was highly productive. Before long he was promoted to foreman, a position at which he also excelled and eventually manager. By living frugally and saving every dime he could, he was able to acquire enough venture capital to start his own business. The business is in its third year and is thriving. He recently married and is expecting his first child.

I found myself wondering how many Americans would be willing to do what he did to achieve the American dream? But he is living proof that it is still possible to achieve it when you expect to do it all on merit and not be given anything.

I bolded the part where he depended on the generosity and wisdom of his employer.

I'm skeptical that today the majority of people in such positions wouldn't be simply taken advantage of.

In some cases I'm sure that happens. But in most cases, the employer is in business to make money and, if you can keep the unions and meddlers out of it, the productive employee is noticed and rewarded because he is making more money for his employer. Most of my life when working for the other guy, I have had bosses who appreciated and rewarded good work. I have been the boss and I definitely noticed, appreciated, and rewarded good work.

And I have worked for some assholes but never longer than I absolutely had to before I moved on to something else.

It has been my observation, however, that the business run by the asshole generally does not prosper as much as the business run by those who utilize good stewardship of their assets which would include hard working productive employees.

No doubt there are market incentives for employers to treat employees fairly. And no doubt that gov't economic intervention rarely drastically improves things.

But I submit that its rougher for our generation this time than it ever was for Boomers. Jobs are harder to come by, the good ones require more education (which requires more debt), and the youth are quite cynical and pessimistic.