Universal Basic Income

[EvilCat Breath]

U.B.i. can work within an ambitious predominantly caucasian society.
If U.B.i. is offered in a dark society more weed gets smoked, more Modello’s get drank and the baby factories run around the clock.

It can only work with an industrious and responsible society. Otherwise the lazy criminal society will merely become lazier and more criminal.

 

[justoffal]

I have read all, or almost all, of Thomas Paine's writings. I think we have a user on this forum who has adopted Paine's name.

Thomas Paine is perhaps most well-known to Americans as being the author of Common Sense, a pamphlet which inspired every patriot to independence.

He also published a series of pamphlets under the title American Crisis. The most famous line most of us have heard from that series is, "These are the times which try men's souls."

Lesser known today, but quite famous during its time, was The Age of Reason. In this three part tome written after we gained independence, Paine completely deconstructed the Christian Bible. He ripped it to pieces.

Paine was an advocate of Deism.

The Age of Reason was a huge bestseller in the US. and led to a revival of deism here.

Not so well known today is Paine's Agrarian Justice.

Like most of our Founders, Paine believe in Natural Rights. He believed "landed property" was an inevitable violation of Natural Rights that needed to be mitigated as the poor were worse off under such a system than when humans had lived in a state of nature.

Paine's solution was for America to provide a tidy sum to every American who reached the age of 21, and to provide an annual sum to everyone who arrived at the age of 50.

The latter half is Social Security. The former is a precursor to a universal basic income, though Paine intended it to be a one time payment so the poor could buy cows or other means to support themselves.

What? Social Security proposed way back in 1797? And UBI, too?!?

It's a very fascinating piece to read, so here it is: http://www.piketty.pse.ens.fr/files/Paine1795.pdf

Just as an aside, Thomas Jefferson also felt the same about the landed class violating Natural Rights, and he proposed a progressive tax on the wealthy, with most Americans being exempt from taxation. (Editing note: I originally posted it was James Madison, but I got the recipient and the sender reversed. See letter in post 4 below. My apologies.)

Our Founders were proto-commies!


Kamala Harris proposed a universal basic income when she was a US Senator in 2018, which puts here squarely in the Liberal column.

More in my next post.

UBI has always been a wonderful wet dream established by humanitarian minds seeking to cleanse themselves of personal guilt.

Unfortunately it ignores the patterns of the natural world of which we are inevitably a part.

Whereas Marx advocated the same general genre via his now famous one line manifesto: " from each recording to his ability to reach according to his need".... He like.so many others before him proffered an unreasonable amount of faith in the benevolence of human nature.

It is there and will always be there that such high-minded goals as universal egalitarianism will find its failure and ultimately its death.

 

[justoffal]

I think at some point a UBI will be inevitable given the improvement in technology replacing human labor at a rapid pace.

If there is a way for UBI to be applied to the general public it would definitely have to be through the replacement of the human labor unit/dollar unit.
Robotics is a possible answer for it.

It would currently be impossible to regulate a stable value across something so diverse as a human population.

The other danger of course is the inevitable conclusion that would be reached by some that large populations are no longer necessary for civilization.

What would happen after that I shudder to think.

Jo

 

[irosie91]

UBI has always been a wonderful wet dream established by humanitarian minds seeking to cleanse themselves of personal guilt.
Unfortunately it ignores the patterns of the natural world of which we are inevitably a part.
Whereas Marx advocated the same general genre via his now famous one line manifesto: " from each recording to his ability to reach according to his need".... He like.so many others before him proffered an unreasonable amount of faith in the benevolence of human nature. It is there and will always be there that such high-minded goals as universal egalitarianism will find its failure and ultimately its death.

all true----now try explaining that to a demonstration
aficionado fully set up with a special tent and military
gear enthusiastically stretched out on the lawn of
Columbia U.

 

[justoffal]

all true----now try explaining that to a demonstration
aficionado fully set up with a special tent and military
gear enthusiastically stretched out on the lawn of
Columbia U.

Yeah ... I See what you mean.

 

[BrokeLoser]

The goal of a UBI program should be alleviating poverty for anyone working 40 hours a week.

In real America weren’t we taught to get a better job if the one we have isn’t paying the bills?
Why did Humberto and Guadalupe have six children while working full time at McDonalds?
Shouldn’t they secure jobs that afford them the six children before they decided to have six children?
That's what we’ve always done in real America…right?

(this is where you pretend to be confused to avoid refuting this post)

 

[irosie91]

In real America weren’t we taught to get a better job if the one we have isn’t paying the bills?
Why did Humberto and Guadalupe have six children while working full time at McDonalds?
Shouldn’t they secure jobs that afford them the six children before they decided to have six children?
That's what we’ve always done in real America…right?

(this is where you pretend to be confused to avoid refuting this post)

the argument against your proposal is---get this---
YOU ARE MANDATING GENOCIDE ----i kid you not----
this argument was presented in New Jersey

 

[BrokeLoser]

the argument against your proposal is---get this---
YOU ARE MANDATING GENOCIDE ----i kid you not----
this argument was presented in New Jersey

Seriously?
I wouldn't doubt it.
How dare we position ourselves to afford our children before we have our children.

 

[Billy000]

In real America weren’t we taught to get a better job if the one we have isn’t paying the bills?
Why did Humberto and Guadalupe have six children while working full time at McDonalds?
Shouldn’t they secure jobs that afford them the six children before they decided to have six children?
That's what we’ve always done in real America…right?

(this is where you pretend to be confused to avoid refuting this post)

Well let me explain to you the scope of macroeconomic solutions as opposed to simpler micro solutions like “get a better job”. You’re too stupid to understand economics so I’m here to help. Sure “just get a better job” would be a good idea for those it would apply to, but it wouldn’t be good advice for the collective millions of poor people we have. Why? Because it would be mathematically impossible for all or most of those people to get better jobs. Higher wage open positions are greatly outnumbered by the amount of poor people. They are extremely competitive jobs. That means that if most of them try to get a better job (obviously many do already), they would inevitably fail because the opportunity simply wouldn’t exist for so many people. And let’s pretend for a second all those poor people did succeed in doing this. Who would be left behind to do all those low wage service jobs vital to the functioning of the economy? You have no idea because you have no idea what you’re talking about.

Given all this in mind, the only solution is to boost the wages of those service jobs that will inevitably always have people in them.

 

[dblack]

For those unfamiliar with UBI, it is basically a payment to every citizen every month by the government. Or, in Kamala Harris's case, a yearly tax credit.

Harris's tax credit was to provide $500 a month to every family earning less than $100,000 and $250 a month for individuals.

It went nowhere, and Harris knew it would to nowhere. This was a pandering gesture in anticipation of running for President in 2020.

So does UBI work?

There have been countless experiments with UBI all over the world, including here in the US on a city by city basis.

Also, the state of Alaska has had a UBI for decades. Sarah Palin even bragged about it.

As far as I know, Finland is the only country which tried it on a nationwide basis.

There is a long running UBI experiment in Kenya, and the results appear to be incredibly promising for lifting people out of poverty.

In Finland and elsewhere, UBI has been shown to increase employment among the poor. Rather than cause people to become lazy with the extra government cash, as its detractors try to claim without proof, it has led to more employment, better health, and other positive outcomes.

Of course it is wildly expensive, but if it leads to prosperity for the poor, then they will be contributing more to the tax revenues.

Anyway, here are some links about where UBI has been tested you may find interesting:

Alaska's UBI program: Alaskans Receive Record Dividends of $3,284

A map of where UBI has been tested: Global Map of Basic Income Experiments | Stanford Basic Income Lab

Finland: An experiment to inform universal basic income

Multiple countries have tested a universal basic income – and it works

England is the latest country to test giving residents a guaranteed amount of money every month, also known as a universal basic income (UBI).

globalaffairs.org

Here is an article about Harris's 2018 plan: https://www.sacbee.com/news/politics-government/capitol-alert/article220239985.html

I'm open to the idea. But I don't see how it's compatible with freedom and democracy.

 

[BrokeLoser]

Well let me explain to you the scope of macroeconomic solutions as opposed to simpler micro solutions like “get a better job”. You’re too stupid to understand economics so I’m here to help. Sure “just get a better job” would be a good idea for those it would apply to, but it wouldn’t be good advice for the collective millions of poor people we have. Why? Because it would be mathematically impossible for all or most of those people to get better jobs. Higher wage open positions are greatly outnumbered by the amount of poor people. They are extremely competitive jobs. That means that if most of them try to get a better job (obviously many do already), they would inevitably fail because the opportunity simply wouldn’t exist for so many people. And let’s pretend for a second all those poor people did succeed in doing this. Who would be left behind to do all those low wage service jobs vital to the functioning of the economy? You have no idea because you have no idea what you’re talking about.

Given all this in mind, the only solution is to boost the wages of those service jobs that will inevitably always have people in them.

Cool theories beggar. Got links to respected sources?
Let me ask you this critical thinking begging skilled economist Billy….What if we sent 50 million brown cockroaches home to their disgusting shitholes?
What would happen to wages across the wage spectrum?

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

What if we sent 50 million brown cockroaches home to their disgusting shitholes?

Then the voting base would be dominated by moron redneck failures like you. I know that's the goal.

 

[dblack]

.Given all this in mind, the only solution is to boost the wages of those service jobs that will inevitably always have people in them.

And how do you do that without "boosting" prices?

 

[BrokeLoser]

Then the voting base would be dominated by moron redneck failures like you. I know that's the goal.

The same Rednecks who built this nation before you fucked in the head purple hair people and wetbacks fucked it all up?

 

[Billy000]

Cool theories beggar. Got links to respected sources?
Let me ask you this critical thinking begging skilled economist Billy….What if we sent 50 million brown cockroaches home to their disgusting shitholes?
What would happen to wages across the wage spectrum?

lol links? Are you kidding me? What you actually think open higher wage job positions are not outnumbered by the amount of MILLIONS of poor workers? What about your solution for who would fill all those service jobs if every poor person somehow successfully got a new job? You have no idea. You might as well admit it.

For one thing, if every illegal got deported tomorrow, the economy would shrink because consumer spending would reduce drastically. Like it or not they, they are integrated into the economy as consumer spenders. Secondly, illegals in this country have their own job market. They are not part of the legitimate workforce. In order to get into the workforce for citizens, you would have to have documentation like birth certificates. Instead their jobs are under the table and radar for the government. Most importantly, they do not qualify for welfare for the same reasons I outlined. Wages for real citizens wouldnt magically go up simply because all illegals left.

 

[Billy000]

The same Rednecks who built this nation before you fucked in the head purple hair people and wetbacks fucked it all up?

Stop pretending you contribute to society in any meaningful way. That wouldn’t be true simply because you’re employed you moron lol

 

[Billy000]

And how do you do that without "boosting" prices?

It’s simply a myth that raising the minimum wage significantly raises prices. It matters what the increase is and how it is rolled out. Also, if people have bigger paychecks, they are spending more money. That boost in consumer spending helps the economy. If raising the minimum wage killed economies, then dozens of states who have raised their minimum wages would be suffering and they are not.

 

[JustAGuy1]

U.B.i. can work within an ambitious predominantly caucasian society.
If U.B.i. is offered in a dark society more weed gets smoked, more Modello’s get drank and the baby factories run around the clock.

I like Modelo.

 

[dblack]

It’s simply a myth that raising the minimum wage significantly raises prices.

Well, you're not talking about raising the minimum wage, but it is the same principal. It's basic supply and demand.

It matters what the increase is and how it is rolled out.

Sure. If you only try to bump things up a little, the effect is negligible. But a significant increase will have a significant impact on prices Not sure how you can steer around that.

 

[Billy000]

Well, you're not talking about raising the minimum wage, but it is the same principal. It's basic supply and demand.
Sure. If you only try to bump things up a little, the effect is negligible. But a significant increase will have a significant impact on prices Not sure how you can steer around that.

Okay then how would UBi increase prices?

Sure there is a connection between them. It just matters how negligible the connection is. It wouldn’t be enough to offset.