Universal Basic Income

[g5000]

How about Progs eliminate all taxes as all they have to do is print it up.

Trump kept demanding the Fed continue ZIRP and QE.

I've been warning since 2016 Trump is and always will be a far left New York Democrat limousine liberal.

One of the biggest reasons, but not the only reason, we currently have inflation is because the Fed kept quantitative easing and ZIRP going for way too long.

But America is all about pain avoidance these days. Not just "Progs", but everyone. We want easy money and bailouts of sclerotic institutions rather than let them fail and be replaced by better business models.

The more we put off the necessary pain of deflation and lowering our debt, the worse it will be when it all comes crashing down.

 

[LordBrownTrout]

Trump kept demanding the Fed continue ZIRP and QE.

I've been warning since 2016 Trump is and always will be a far left New York Democrat limousine liberal.

One of the biggest reasons, but not the only reason, we currently have inflation is because the Fed kept quantitative easing and ZIRP going for way too long.

But America is all about pain avoidance these days. Not just "Progs", but everyone. We want easy money and bailouts of sclerotic institutions rather than let them fail and be replaced by better business models.

The more we put off the necessary pain of deflation and lowering our debt, the worse it will be when it all comes crashing down.

The 8 trillion dollar pumping from 2008-2014 went mainly to financials and banks who didn't move that money and we really didn't see inflation because that money wasn't in circulation. Now, trump and biden pumped 5 trillion directly into the public and inflation, prices have reached into the stratosphere.

 

[jotathought]

it puts money in peoples pocket where they wouldnt otherwise have any,,

who pays for it and who decides who gets it is a huge conversation that needs to be had for yrs before it could ever be implemented,,


to be clear I am not in favor of it,,
but reality tells me someday the choice will come before us do we have a large percentage of people that cant find jobs and have no money or do we come up with a way to offset or directly deal with it,,

one idea is a person has to work so many yrs to qualify, or so many months a yr,,

that could be done at the corp level and government has nothing to do with it,,

UBI is a stupid idea .. there are far more cons than pros

• Over-dependency on government
• Inflation risks
• Funding
• Reduced public services risks
• Disincentives work

 

[g5000]

The 8 trillion dollar pumping from 2008-2014 went mainly to financials and banks who didn't move that money and we really didn't see inflation because that money wasn't in circulation.

Exactly.

I refer you to my 2013 topic: The Fed's Bond Bubble Doomsday Machine

Now, trump and biden pumped 5 trillion directly into the public and inflation, prices have reached into the stratosphere.

Inflation was caused by all that QE money buried in vaults, coupled with Obama and Trump's massive overspending, then the economy being shut down by the pandemic, followed by a tremendous surge of pent-up demand supercharged by stimulus money.

Consumer demand is going to burn out sooner or later, and then everyone will be begging for more QE and ZIRP.

 

[Mac-7]

Exactly.

I refer you to my 2013 topic: The Fed's Bond Bubble Doomsday Machine



Inflation was caused by all that QE money buried in vaults, coupled with Obama and Trump's massive overspending, then the economy being shut down by the pandemic, followed by a tremendous surge of pent-up demand supercharged by stimulus money.

Consumer demand is going to burn out sooner or later, and then everyone will be begging for more QE and ZIRP.

I suspect you have some good ideas I could agree with and others, like IBI, that are not so good

Unfortunately nothing much is going to change until the bottom falls out of our economy

God have mercy on us

 

[g5000]

Those born first, or those who were here first, definitely have an advantage.

. . . and as the population grows, so too, does the value of land and natural resources, with no inherent work of the family or corporations that originally own them, this is true.

Every keen thinker can obviously figure this out, and anyone that denies this, usually has had land owners and resource owners in their family going back multiple generations, and generally don't give a shit about the poor and disposed on the planet.

Nor do they care about the homeless or destitute. They tend to be soulless and wicked men and women.


. . . on the other hand. . .

Using this, as a way to grow government, and give it more power? This too we should be on guard against. There is a third way which I believe you are not aware of.


. . . we need not resort, necessarily to UBI.

I started this topic because of the current political landscape. To point out then-Senator Kamala Harris introduced a UBI bill.

She claims to have different views about a lot of things she believed back then, but still, this may be a topic of discussion for a while into the future if she wins.

She may move the UBI pebble a little further down the path just by normalizing the subject.

 

[Carl in Michigan]

I don't know if you've ever heard of Milton Friedman. He was a Nobel Prize Winner and Reagan's favorite economist. I'm a huge fan of Milton Friedman. And Reagan.

Friedman was a hardcore libertarian. He was opposed to big government in every way. He was against the plethora of regulatory agencies. He was against corporate bailouts. He felt all drugs should be legalized. And so forth.

On the Fairness Doctrine: "I'm not in favor of fairness. I'm in favor of freedom. Fairness means someone has to decide what's fair."

So you can imagine how surprising it is to learn he was in favor of UBI. He called it a "negative income tax".

He discussed it in his books Capitalism and Freedom and Free to Choose.


The basic idea was to eliminate all welfare programs. They were too expensive and had massive costly government bureaucracies, and subject to too much fraud, abuse, and waste.

Instead, the poor would be given money with no strings attached to spend as they please.

We had that during the Covid days.
During that time I had cancer surgery. I required many weeks before I was allowed back to work.

I was paid $1,000 a week to sit on my ass. Worked out kinda nice for me, and I didn't refuse that free gift the government took from YOU, but that arrangement is SO WRONG on every level for society as a whole. It is the number one reason we have the inflation we have today

 

[g5000]

I suspect you have some good ideas I could agree with and others, like IBI, that are not so good

Unfortunately nothing much is going to change until the bottom falls out of our economy

God have mercy on us

I am amazed the bottom has not fallen out already, what with our impossible-to-fathom federal debt.

The debt has always been my number one issue, which is the primary reason I detest both parties. I especially detest the GOP for pretending they are the party of fiscal responsibility.

It's just a matter of time before no one is going to want to buy our debt because they don't trust in our good faith and credit any more. They will ask for much higher interest on our debt, and then off the cliff we go.

The way Harris framed UBI, I'm opposed because she did not put up a commensurate elimination of welfare as Milton Friedman did.

Harris's UBI is just another layer of welfare on top of the existing welfare. That's a no-go for me.

 

[g5000]

We had that during the Covid days.
During that time I had cancer surgery. I required many weeks before I was allowed back to work.

I was paid $1,000 a week to sit on my ass. Worked out kinda nice for me, and I didn't refuse that free gift the government took from YOU, but that arrangement is SO WRONG on every level for society as a whole. It is the number one reason we have the inflation we have today

The stimulus money didn't come from me. It was borrowed.

It came from our as-yet-unborn grandchildren.

"Hey, kid. Welcome to America. Let me slip this ball and chain on you."

 

[imawhosure]

Ummm, I'm a hard no. If you want money get a job and pay taxes.

the problem with UBI is it creates lazy second class citizens,,

there has to be skin in the game and working is the only way to do that,,

I can go for a tax credit for working people,,

its my understanding that the UBI in alaska is because of their fossil fuel resources and the huge lack of jobs,,

thats not a problem in the lower 49,,

LOL! Maybe Kenyans wouldn't spend UBI on cigarettes, drugs, booze, and hookers, but here in the US its a given.

Honestly, LOLOLOLOL......please laugh with me--------->these people actually believe Kamala is ahead in the polls, so now they are all going to come out of the woodwork, and finally out themselves for what they actually believe on this forum.

LET ME TELL YOU SOMETHING---------->Kammy is NOT AHEAD in the polls, lolololol. In fact, while she has honestly gained ground in the over all vote, she has LOST ground in some of the most important battleground states. Now I do not know about you folks, but if she wants to carry an extra million in California and New York, WHO CARES, lololol. She may even carry a million more votes in Massachusetts and Illi....Silly.......of Noise. What does that get her over demented Biden? NOTHING, zero, zilch, forget about it!

The formula that has been put forth for MONTHS about the %s of who is voting for Trump, what ethnicity, and age are STILL accurate; if not more so. What you are seeing is LEFTIST enthusiasm, and good for them. But the fact is.........if the numbers for who/whom is voting for who, she can NOT win, and in fact, will probably get blown out; that is IF you vote.

GeeWillikers5000 and friends can spin until they get dizzier than they already are; won't make a difference with the current model. If numbers do not move in their favor by a significant amount, they are TOAST!

Just a question--------->why would you EVER believe the same people who told you Biden was as sharp as a tack? They were ALL gaslighting you then, and are gaslighting you now to deflate you. Tell them to go suck an egg, and when your side has the Presidency, the Senate, and the House come January, we are going to laugh them.......as we should have for ages.....off this board!

 

[g5000]

In fact, while she has honestly gained ground in the over all vote, she has LOST ground in some of the most important battleground states.

Um... you might want to fact check yourself.

Pennsylvania: Harris leads Trump by 4 points among likely voters and 3 points among registered voters, according to the Times/Siena poll (the margin of error is 4.2 points).

Michigan: Harris also leads Trump here by 4 points among likely voters—but trails Trump by 2 points among registered voters (the margin of error is 4.8 points).

Wisconsin: Harris leads Trump by 4 points among likely voters and 5 points among registered voters in the Times poll (the margin of error is 4.3 points).

Georgia: Trump and Harris are tied in the Bloomberg/Morning Consult poll at 47%, while Trump is up by two points in the state (48% to 46%), with 7% undecided, in the Emerson poll.

Arizona: Harris leads by two in the Bloomberg/Morning Consult poll, 49% to 47%, but is down by five points (49% to 44%), with 7% of voters undecided, in the Emerson poll.

North Carolina: Trump would win the state by two points, 48% to 46%, according to the Bloomberg/Morning Consult poll, a decline in Trump’s 5.7-point lead here over Biden, according to Real Clear Politics’ poll tracker.

Nevada: Harris leads by two points, 47% to 45%, in the Bloomberg/Morning Consult poll; Trump led Biden here by 5.6 points, according to Real Clear Politics’ poll tracker.
The video player is currently playing an ad.

Election 2024 Swing State Polls: Harris Surges Ahead Of Trump In Pennsylvania, Michigan And Wisconsin

Harris leads Trump in five states, Trump is up in one, according to latest surveys.

www.forbes.com

 

[BluesLegend]

More like universal basic MOOCHING. Get a job you lazy asses, earn your own money.

 

[g5000]

More like universal basic MOOCHING. Get a job you lazy asses, earn your own money.

I see you did not read the thread and just gave us a totally expected kneejerk, ignorant response.

 

[jbander]

Something for nothing does not last long. We have to many people who play the system now. I believe Sweden a few decades ago was at the 70%taxrate in their socialist utopia and people collecting were living better than many people working as they played the system.

You are full of crap , you know nothing about whats going on there , it is just a opinion, a stupid one at that. Got them right from the pages of if it has the word Social in it is is no good/ Your opinions are like 3rd grade at the most. I have Heard this lots of times in my lifetime and the idiots that spew this crap are the first ones to demand theirs if they are in trouble . Your words are self righteous crap.

 

[jbander]

How about Progs eliminate all taxes as all they have to do is print it up.

Now that real smart , like I said you are a joke. You people are clowns you think you have a position but it is in reality just a aspect of your ugliness and hatred.

 

[jbander]

The ubi intertwines with the upcoming digital currency system and it will identify each person. Most people will accept.

oops a secret organization who controls the world , gee that's real scary. Is that part of the new world order, or trilateral commission. What a hoot.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

I have read all, or almost all, of Thomas Paine's writings. I think we have a user on this forum who has adopted Paine's name.

Thomas Paine is perhaps most well-known to Americans as being the author of Common Sense, a pamphlet which inspired every patriot to independence.

He also published a series of pamphlets under the title American Crisis. The most famous line most of us have heard from that series is, "These are the times which try men's souls."

Lesser known today, but quite famous during its time, was The Age of Reason. In this three part tome written after we gained independence, Paine completely deconstructed the Christian Bible. He ripped it to pieces.

Paine was an advocate of Deism.

The Age of Reason was a huge bestseller in the US. and led to a revival of deism here.

Not so well known today is Paine's Agrarian Justice.

Like most of our Founders, Paine believe in Natural Rights. He believed "landed property" was an inevitable violation of Natural Rights that needed to be mitigated as the poor were worse off under such a system than when humans had lived in a state of nature.

Paine's solution was for America to provide a tidy sum to every American who reached the age of 21, and to provide an annual sum to everyone who arrived at the age of 50.

The latter half is Social Security. The former is a precursor to a universal basic income, though Paine intended it to be a one time payment so the poor could buy cows or other means to support themselves.

What? Social Security proposed way back in 1797? And UBI, too?!?

It's a very fascinating piece to read, so here it is: http://www.piketty.pse.ens.fr/files/Paine1795.pdf

Just as an aside, Thomas Jefferson also felt the same about the landed class violating Natural Rights, and he proposed a progressive tax on the wealthy, with most Americans being exempt from taxation. (Editing note: I originally posted it was James Madison, but I got the recipient and the sender reversed. See letter in post 4 below. My apologies.)

Our Founders were proto-commies!


Kamala Harris proposed a universal basic income when she was a US Senator in 2018, which puts here squarely in the Liberal column.

More in my next post.

We were a TOTALLY different country, e.g. How many pages were in The Federal Register at the time?

 

[jbander]

Currently the employee/employer total with social security and Medicaid is 15%. And the employer part is really the employee's money. That is a lot of moola. We have people finding it tougher to live than in the past and the millennial generation is on track to be the first one worth less than the preceding one in American history. This is all good if we were a self-sustaining nation. We would see any real problems from that. Will we have to live off of 3rd worlders in poverty nation who makes pennies on the dollar for our sustenance and survival? So, we can pat each other on the back for our self-congratulatory great society. There is a reason we purchase foreign vehicles today. And when the electrics are forced on us from the progs, we will purchase the Chinese made ones over American made ones.

what a hoot. Now when they first started using TV's did you think they would take over the world. How about the internet or computers , just wondering how you think they (whoever they are )will control you with those things. Do you know that the sky is falling.

 

[LordBrownTrout]

oops a secret organization who controls the world , gee that's real scary. Is that part of the new world order, or trilateral commission. What a hoot.

Funny, I never mentioned any of that stuff.

 

[jbander]

Exactly.

I refer you to my 2013 topic: The Fed's Bond Bubble Doomsday Machine



Inflation was caused by all that QE money buried in vaults, coupled with Obama and Trump's massive overspending, then the economy being shut down by the pandemic, followed by a tremendous surge of pent-up demand supercharged by stimulus money.

Consumer demand is going to burn out sooner or later, and then everyone will be begging for more QE and ZIRP.

Just give the money to the poor and middle class , demand will grow not rescind. How did we become the strongest economy after COVID while the rest of the world collapsed ,our economy is thriving. They did what any good demand side economist would do, hand out 2000 dollar check to real people.Not bail out some corporation. The rights mentality is to hand it to the wealthy and wait for it to trickle down and if it doesn't make stupid excuses why it didn't work that time.