external vs internal containment

[Iceweasel]

(sorry Strollingbones, I did not mean to de-rail your thread)

I thought it was the subject of the thread?

 

[BluePhantom]

external refers to laws, police, governments, peer groups......the things outside of you that keep you from being evil

internal refers to the self......to your spirit....

so the question is....do you do things due to internal or external containment....

Well I would argue that, with the exception of basic instincts, it is the external influences that shape the internal. It is the laws, peer groups, messages in media, cultural influences, etc that determine an individuals values and mores. So I am not sure you can really separate the two.

 

[the_human_being]

What I can't fathom is just exactly where the conscience came from? I have inquired of many agnostics and atheists to explain the origin of one's conscience using their knowledge of science and evolution to no avail. Why do humans alone possess a conscience? Was it present the moment we crawled out of that cesspool following their "Big Bang"? What gives us the emotions of love, hate, desire, pity, sympathy, lust, admiration, glee, happiness, remorse, etc.? How is it that we have a little voice inside each and every one of us that speaks to us concerning acts of right or wrong even before we commit them or refrain from committing them?

 

[BluePhantom]

What I can't fathom is just exactly where the conscience came from? I have inquired of many agnostics and atheists to explain the origin of one's conscience using their knowledge of science and evolution to no avail. Why do humans alone possess a conscience? Was it present the moment we crawled out of that cesspool following their "Big Bang"? What gives us the emotions of love, hate, desire, pity, sympathy, lust, admiration, glee, happiness, remorse, etc.? How is it that we have a little voice inside each and every one of us that speaks to us concerning acts of right or wrong even before we commit them or refrain from committing them?

Well it may be perfectly natural in the animal world (of which we are a part). We do not think of animals having emotions but surely they do. They experience fear, anger, arguably even shame. We assume that they do not experience love because we have no way to measure that really. It's hard enough for us to define love as it relates to humans, let alone animals. Some animals mate for life, for example. Is it because they love each other? Do two penguins that have mated for life know love as we feel it? We don't know. Maybe.

Check out this short video which I find very interesting. The research was on fairness and according to the research monkeys seem to understand the concept of fairness. In the video both monkeys are given an equal task but one gets rewarded better than the other. Watch what happens.



So I don't know if a conscience is exclusive to humans. It may not be and we simply have not found a way to measure it or identify it in other species. I mean hell, there are humans who we might argue lack one as well.

 

[the_human_being]

What I can't fathom is just exactly where the conscience came from? I have inquired of many agnostics and atheists to explain the origin of one's conscience using their knowledge of science and evolution to no avail. Why do humans alone possess a conscience? Was it present the moment we crawled out of that cesspool following their "Big Bang"? What gives us the emotions of love, hate, desire, pity, sympathy, lust, admiration, glee, happiness, remorse, etc.? How is it that we have a little voice inside each and every one of us that speaks to us concerning acts of right or wrong even before we commit them or refrain from committing them?

Well it may be perfectly natural in the animal world (of which we are a part). We do not think of animals having emotions but surely they do. They experience fear, anger, arguably even shame. We assume that they do not experience love because we have no way to measure that really. It's hard enough for us to define love as it relates to humans, let alone animals. Some animals mate for life, for example. Is it because they love each other? Do two penguins that have mated for life know love as we feel it? We don't know. Maybe.

Check out this short video which I find very interesting. The research was on fairness and according to the research monkeys seem to understand the concept of fairness. In the video both monkeys are given an equal task but one gets rewarded better than the other. Watch what happens.



So I don't know if a conscience is exclusive to humans. It may not be and we simply have not found a way to measure it or identify it in other species. I mean hell, there are humans who we might argue lack one as well.

That's my point, isn't it? All these scientific types cannot explain it.

 

[BluePhantom]

What I can't fathom is just exactly where the conscience came from? I have inquired of many agnostics and atheists to explain the origin of one's conscience using their knowledge of science and evolution to no avail. Why do humans alone possess a conscience? Was it present the moment we crawled out of that cesspool following their "Big Bang"? What gives us the emotions of love, hate, desire, pity, sympathy, lust, admiration, glee, happiness, remorse, etc.? How is it that we have a little voice inside each and every one of us that speaks to us concerning acts of right or wrong even before we commit them or refrain from committing them?

Well it may be perfectly natural in the animal world (of which we are a part). We do not think of animals having emotions but surely they do. They experience fear, anger, arguably even shame. We assume that they do not experience love because we have no way to measure that really. It's hard enough for us to define love as it relates to humans, let alone animals. Some animals mate for life, for example. Is it because they love each other? Do two penguins that have mated for life know love as we feel it? We don't know. Maybe.

Check out this short video which I find very interesting. The research was on fairness and according to the research monkeys seem to understand the concept of fairness. In the video both monkeys are given an equal task but one gets rewarded better than the other. Watch what happens.



So I don't know if a conscience is exclusive to humans. It may not be and we simply have not found a way to measure it or identify it in other species. I mean hell, there are humans who we might argue lack one as well.

That's my point, isn't it? All these scientific types cannot explain it.

Well my guess is that a scientist would explain emotions merely as chemical reactions that occur in the brain as a result of certain stimuli. I have heard some people argue that emotions such as love do not really exist; they are simply the result of those chemical reactions based upon learned outcomes and a desire for the release of endorphins. I imagine they would argue that a conscience, therefore, is merely that which restrains us from doing something (or perhaps feeling shame for something we did) or encourages us to do something based purely on historical experience of the chemical reactions within the brain. This would, of course, mean that conscience does not exist; it is simply learned behavior influenced by the standards of society which trigger certain chemical reactions and in turn cause given emotions.

In other words we are all a bunch of fucking robots.

My guess is their argument would go something along those lines.

 

[the_human_being]

What I can't fathom is just exactly where the conscience came from? I have inquired of many agnostics and atheists to explain the origin of one's conscience using their knowledge of science and evolution to no avail. Why do humans alone possess a conscience? Was it present the moment we crawled out of that cesspool following their "Big Bang"? What gives us the emotions of love, hate, desire, pity, sympathy, lust, admiration, glee, happiness, remorse, etc.? How is it that we have a little voice inside each and every one of us that speaks to us concerning acts of right or wrong even before we commit them or refrain from committing them?

Well it may be perfectly natural in the animal world (of which we are a part). We do not think of animals having emotions but surely they do. They experience fear, anger, arguably even shame. We assume that they do not experience love because we have no way to measure that really. It's hard enough for us to define love as it relates to humans, let alone animals. Some animals mate for life, for example. Is it because they love each other? Do two penguins that have mated for life know love as we feel it? We don't know. Maybe.

Check out this short video which I find very interesting. The research was on fairness and according to the research monkeys seem to understand the concept of fairness. In the video both monkeys are given an equal task but one gets rewarded better than the other. Watch what happens.



So I don't know if a conscience is exclusive to humans. It may not be and we simply have not found a way to measure it or identify it in other species. I mean hell, there are humans who we might argue lack one as well.

That's my point, isn't it? All these scientific types cannot explain it.

Well my guess is that a scientist would explain emotions merely as chemical reactions that occur in the brain as a result of certain stimuli. I have heard some people argue that emotions such as love do not really exist; they are simply the result of those chemical reactions based upon learned outcomes and a desire for the release of endorphins. I imagine they would argue that a conscience, therefore, is merely that which restrains us from doing something (or perhaps feeling shame for something we did) or encourages us to do something based purely on historical experience of the chemical reactions within the brain. This would, of course, mean that conscience does not exist; it is simply learned behavior influenced by the standards of society which trigger certain chemical reactions and in turn cause given emotions.

In other words we are all a bunch of fucking robots.

My guess is their argument would go something along those lines.

I agree that might be their argument. It would however, be a theory at best and an unproven one at that. If that argument were offered, I would then ask just exactly what chemicals and what doses would be required and how would one administer such chemicals.

 

[BluePhantom]

What I can't fathom is just exactly where the conscience came from? I have inquired of many agnostics and atheists to explain the origin of one's conscience using their knowledge of science and evolution to no avail. Why do humans alone possess a conscience? Was it present the moment we crawled out of that cesspool following their "Big Bang"? What gives us the emotions of love, hate, desire, pity, sympathy, lust, admiration, glee, happiness, remorse, etc.? How is it that we have a little voice inside each and every one of us that speaks to us concerning acts of right or wrong even before we commit them or refrain from committing them?

Well it may be perfectly natural in the animal world (of which we are a part). We do not think of animals having emotions but surely they do. They experience fear, anger, arguably even shame. We assume that they do not experience love because we have no way to measure that really. It's hard enough for us to define love as it relates to humans, let alone animals. Some animals mate for life, for example. Is it because they love each other? Do two penguins that have mated for life know love as we feel it? We don't know. Maybe.

Check out this short video which I find very interesting. The research was on fairness and according to the research monkeys seem to understand the concept of fairness. In the video both monkeys are given an equal task but one gets rewarded better than the other. Watch what happens.



So I don't know if a conscience is exclusive to humans. It may not be and we simply have not found a way to measure it or identify it in other species. I mean hell, there are humans who we might argue lack one as well.

That's my point, isn't it? All these scientific types cannot explain it.

Well my guess is that a scientist would explain emotions merely as chemical reactions that occur in the brain as a result of certain stimuli. I have heard some people argue that emotions such as love do not really exist; they are simply the result of those chemical reactions based upon learned outcomes and a desire for the release of endorphins. I imagine they would argue that a conscience, therefore, is merely that which restrains us from doing something (or perhaps feeling shame for something we did) or encourages us to do something based purely on historical experience of the chemical reactions within the brain. This would, of course, mean that conscience does not exist; it is simply learned behavior influenced by the standards of society which trigger certain chemical reactions and in turn cause given emotions.

In other words we are all a bunch of fucking robots.

My guess is their argument would go something along those lines.

I agree that might be their argument. It would however, be a theory at best and an unproven one at that. If that argument were offered, I would then ask just exactly what chemicals and what doses would be required and how would one administer such chemicals.

Well I am sure they could give you a list. For example, cortisol is a chemical released into the brain during times of fear. It's controlled by the pituitary gland I believe which is a very primitive gland. It does not distinguish between degrees of of threat. It perceives us as either safe or in danger. When in danger, it releases cortisol and that has the effect of blocking out many of our higher brain functions so our brain power is focused solely on the threat in front of us. It's basic fight or flight stuff and it happens so we don't start balancing our checkbook when someone is running at us with an ax.

I know this because a member of my family had an issue wherein his brain would get flooded with so much cortisol that he lacked any ability to think rationally when he was upset and he would fly into uncontrollable rages. The pituitary does not distinguish between physical threats and emotional threats...it only perceives us as safe or unsafe. So if you said something wrong to him and it upset him, his brain did not distinguish between an insult and a physical attack. His brain would flood with cortisol, all higher reasoning would be shut down and he could only attack or run.....unfortunately he was an attacker, not a runner and as you might imagine that caused a lot of problems with his relationships and a host of legal issues.

Through medication, he functions normally now. The point is is you asked the scientist would give you a similar explanation....all completely rational and biological with nothing left to the human spiritual condition.

Just as a side note....this conversation reminds me of this. Look for a film called Mr. Frost starring Jeff Goldblum. Goldblum plays the devil and he has come to earth in human form because science has created medical explanations for all the evil he has created. Thus true evil no longer exists and thus he no longer has power. His goal is to get a psychiatrist to kill him because the psychiatrist recognizes him as the devil. By doing so, science will recognize the existence of the devil and true evil and through that recognition his power will be restored. It's kind of like the devil having an identity crisis. It's a great movie. I highly recommend it.

 

[the_human_being]

What I can't fathom is just exactly where the conscience came from? I have inquired of many agnostics and atheists to explain the origin of one's conscience using their knowledge of science and evolution to no avail. Why do humans alone possess a conscience? Was it present the moment we crawled out of that cesspool following their "Big Bang"? What gives us the emotions of love, hate, desire, pity, sympathy, lust, admiration, glee, happiness, remorse, etc.? How is it that we have a little voice inside each and every one of us that speaks to us concerning acts of right or wrong even before we commit them or refrain from committing them?

Well it may be perfectly natural in the animal world (of which we are a part). We do not think of animals having emotions but surely they do. They experience fear, anger, arguably even shame. We assume that they do not experience love because we have no way to measure that really. It's hard enough for us to define love as it relates to humans, let alone animals. Some animals mate for life, for example. Is it because they love each other? Do two penguins that have mated for life know love as we feel it? We don't know. Maybe.

Check out this short video which I find very interesting. The research was on fairness and according to the research monkeys seem to understand the concept of fairness. In the video both monkeys are given an equal task but one gets rewarded better than the other. Watch what happens.



So I don't know if a conscience is exclusive to humans. It may not be and we simply have not found a way to measure it or identify it in other species. I mean hell, there are humans who we might argue lack one as well.

That's my point, isn't it? All these scientific types cannot explain it.

Well my guess is that a scientist would explain emotions merely as chemical reactions that occur in the brain as a result of certain stimuli. I have heard some people argue that emotions such as love do not really exist; they are simply the result of those chemical reactions based upon learned outcomes and a desire for the release of endorphins. I imagine they would argue that a conscience, therefore, is merely that which restrains us from doing something (or perhaps feeling shame for something we did) or encourages us to do something based purely on historical experience of the chemical reactions within the brain. This would, of course, mean that conscience does not exist; it is simply learned behavior influenced by the standards of society which trigger certain chemical reactions and in turn cause given emotions.

In other words we are all a bunch of fucking robots.

My guess is their argument would go something along those lines.

I agree that might be their argument. It would however, be a theory at best and an unproven one at that. If that argument were offered, I would then ask just exactly what chemicals and what doses would be required and how would one administer such chemicals.

Well I am sure they could give you a list. For example, cortisol is a chemical released into the brain during times of fear. It's controlled by the pituitary gland I believe which is a very primitive gland. It does not distinguish between degrees of of threat. It perceives us as either safe or in danger. When in danger, it releases cortisol and that has the effect of blocking out many of our higher brain functions so our brain power is focused solely on the threat in front of us. It's basic fight or flight stuff and it happens so we don't start balancing our checkbook when someone is running at us with an ax.

I know this because a member of my family had an issue wherein his brain would get flooded with so much cortisol that he lacked any ability to think rationally when he was upset and he would fly into uncontrollable rages. The pituitary does not distinguish between physical threats and emotional threats...it only perceives us as safe or unsafe. So if you said something wrong to him and it upset him, his brain did not distinguish between an insult and a physical attack. His brain would flood with cortisol, all higher reasoning would be shut down and he could only attack or run.....unfortunately he was an attacker, not a runner and as you might imagine that caused a lot of problems with his relationships and a host of legal issues.

Through medication, he functions normally now. The point is is you asked the scientist would give you a similar explanation....all completely rational and biological with nothing left to the human spiritual condition.

Just as a side note....this conversation reminds me of this. Look for a film called Mr. Frost starring Jeff Goldblum. Goldblum plays the devil and he has come to earth in human form because science has created medical explanations for all the evil he has created. Thus true evil no longer exists and thus he no longer has power. His goal is to get a psychiatrist to kill him because the psychiatrist recognizes him as the devil. By doing so, science will recognize the existence of the devil and true evil and through that recognition his power will be restored. It's kind of like the devil having an identity crisis. It's a great movie. I highly recommend it.

Well, even alcohol and certainly drugs will effect one's minds but I am addressing the conscience itself.

 

[strollingbones]

compassion seems to be developed...conscience would be inputted somehow.....if you were never subject to compassion or morals then you would only act out of base instinct....i think its an input ....and there are those without conscience....serial killers and republicans....

 

[strollingbones]

okay that was just snarky sorry

 

[the_human_being]

compassion seems to be developed...conscience would be inputted somehow.....if you were never subject to compassion or morals then you would only act out of base instinct....i think its an input ....and there are those without conscience....serial killers and republicans....

There's the "somehow" again. I'm not talking about how to alter one's conscience. I'm asking how it got there in the first place.

 

[BluePhantom]

compassion seems to be developed...conscience would be inputted somehow.....if you were never subject to compassion or morals then you would only act out of base instinct....i think its an input ....and there are those without conscience....serial killers and republicans....

Except that Republicans donate to charity and volunteer FAR more than Democrats. Democrats talk about compassion, Republicans actually show it. But aside from deflecting your snide little political comment

I would argue that conscience is based upon upbringing and the influences of environment (except in the obvious cases of insanity such as with serial killers and Democrats ) Think of it this way....lets take some posters on USMB.....lets say koshergrl, Bonzi, Derideo_Te, sealybobo, and myself.

Now there's a pretty good spread of identities there. KG is a pretty hardcore Christian, Bonzi is devout but not so black and white (no offense intended KG), DT is atheist but very reasonable and respectful of those who have faith, Sealy is an atheist who is tolerant but not quite as respectful at DT, and I am a pretty moderate Christian and moderate Republican. Not surprisingly, the more religiously devout this sample is, the more they lean to one party or the other. Now all of us at least agree that Muslim extremism / Islamic terrorism is a big problem. We have different ideas on how big of a problem and what should be done about it, but we all generally agree it's a problem.

But what if all of us were born and raised in Iran where Islam was drilled into our heads from birth? My guess is we would all be Muslims. That will piss KG off. but if we are really honest, that's probably what would happen. How our conscience directs or affects us is based upon our beliefs so if we were all born in Iran our conscience would behave differently and be subject to different criteria.