FACT CHECK: No 'death panel' in health care bill

[Fatality]

As long as they have a good product and the government plan has to sustain itself through premiums and other non-tax revenue, private insurers should be able to compete with the government plan, Obama said.

"They do it all the time," he said. "UPS and FedEx are doing just fine. ... It's the Post Office that's always having problems."

That's our president trying to sell a government run health care plan, you need to ask yourself why you would want a government run anything when it's very clear that even the Mesiah thinks the government run postal service is a failure.

As I said in the other thread you posted this in:

"Asked to clarify, the White House said Obama was pointing out that while core Postal Service services are different from those offered by UPS and FedEx, it has not undermined the competitive spirit of the private shipping industry."

The post office is an entirely different animal than the private shippers. They do the bulk of mail across the country, the cheap mail that is.

The point being, you can get the bare essential, cheap, public health plan (tthe post office) or you will be able to opt for the more expensive private health plans, which have better service (FedEx).

And, for the price they charge and the volume they handle, the post office does a pretty good job thank you very much.

funny how everyone else is always rushing to obamas aid to clarify what he says since he finds it so difficult to spit it out himself.


post office = obams nationalist free clinic...take a number, stand in line, wait for your number, talk to an underworked overpaid asshole beurocrat, pay an additional fee to the taxes you pay for your "free" government healthscam.

just like the department of motor vehicles...walk in take a number stand in line wait for your number talk to a underworked overpaid asshole Beurocrat pay a fee get shit for service.

obamas free clinic = the department of motor vehicles.

 

[Care4all]

I know someone who's a nurse and works for an insurance company. Her boss is a doctor. IOW, it's not really fair to say that it's only "bean counters" who are making decisions at insurance companies. It's just that at the same time, it's not fair to make the assumption that a publicly-run insurance co. is going to be any more or less calculating in their decision-making.

Good point Erik,

I had already said something similar, but when it is an insurance company the insured has other avenues, including changing providers. When the government has sole possession of the purse strings there will be no options at all. When they say no, the answer will be no and you will be up shit creek without a paddle.

Immie

then don't go with the public option if you are somehow? in fear of such and go with the NUMEROUS PRIVATE Insurers available to you on the Insurance Exchange?

 

[Immanuel]

I know someone who's a nurse and works for an insurance company. Her boss is a doctor. IOW, it's not really fair to say that it's only "bean counters" who are making decisions at insurance companies. It's just that at the same time, it's not fair to make the assumption that a publicly-run insurance co. is going to be any more or less calculating in their decision-making.

Good point Erik,

I had already said something similar, but when it is an insurance company the insured has other avenues, including changing providers. When the government has sole possession of the purse strings there will be no options at all. When they say no, the answer will be no and you will be up shit creek without a paddle.

Immie

then don't go with the public option if you are somehow? in fear of such and go with the NUMEROUS PRIVATE Insurers available to you on the Insurance Exchange?

That is BS, my dear, the so called "Private Exchange" will be so governed by the Feds that they will be indestinguishable from the Public Option. The private pool will be government insurance with a corporate name on it.

Immie

 

[probus]

hey!-- i wonder if we'll be lucky enough to get Rep. Sheila Jackson-Lee on the "death panel"?-- here's how she feels about her constituents, especially white ones who have cancer-- i'm just sayin'-- Regards, probus [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-L3FnWNkIzU]YouTube - Rep. Sheila Jackson Lee talks on the phone as a woman asks a question at a town hall event[/ame]

 

[MaggieMae]

Yup........the president stepped in it on two counts today then. His comment about "single payer" was a classic flub in the vain of vice president Biden.
How many times do they have on record Obama saying the complete polar opposite??

He thinks people were born yesterday............but he's finding out right quick...............

theyre not...................

During the campaign, initially he DID advocate single-payer, and he does not deny that. HOWEVER, he has also said (and especially once the economy crashed) that IF he could start from scratch, single-payer might make sense. Obama also doesn't dismiss the idea 15-20 years down the line. But for now, getting everyone on some kind of health INSURANCE makes more sense.

 

[Care4all]

Good point Erik,

I had already said something similar, but when it is an insurance company the insured has other avenues, including changing providers. When the government has sole possession of the purse strings there will be no options at all. When they say no, the answer will be no and you will be up shit creek without a paddle.

Immie

then don't go with the public option if you are somehow? in fear of such and go with the NUMEROUS PRIVATE Insurers available to you on the Insurance Exchange?

That is BS, my dear, the so called "Private Exchange" will be so governed by the Feds that they will be indestinguishable from the Public Option. The private pool will be government insurance with a corporate name on it.

Immie

Do you think the Private Insurance Corporations responsible and charged with making their shareholders profitable would agree to these new regulations in insurance reform, with the exception of a public/coop option, if they thought they couldn't make a buck off of it or if their business analysis of the reform came to the conclusion that this gvt reform would be the downfall of them?

to me immie, common sense says no...that's all I am thinking...and more on the lines of this being a GIFT HORSE to the Insurance companies who do nothing but push paper and provide no actual medical care to anyone....

Care

 

[MaggieMae]

Right, you think health care professionals are going to provide services they are NOT going to get paid for? They don't do it now. In today's world, when they provide services for the uninsured in which they know they will not be paid for, they can turn around and get paid by other means by the insurance companies which is part of the reason that our rates are so high. Also the government pays for emergency services. In the future, there will be only ONE insurance company and when they say no... they won't pay.

What is going to happen to the uninsured that enters an emergency room? Oh wait, you won't be able to be uninsured.... but then what happens to John Doe when he goes to a specialist and the government has said... "No coverage for Mr. Doe"? Mr. Doe will not be able to receive those services (unless of course, Mr Doe has a large amount of cash stored that the government hasn't stolen) because the government has said they are not paying for it. Basically, Mr. Doe is screwed.

Basically, the "health care pool" if it even exists five years after the institution of this plan, will be nothing more than public insurance. There will be no negotiation of fees between insurance companies and medical professionals. The government will tell medical professionals what the government is going to pay and not a dime more.


Immie

How spot on is this post ^^^ ???

The sheep simply have an inability to think on the margin in terms of the tradeoffs. They just cant do it.

Immie.........your last sentence in the above post is compelling. The translation? Well.......to anybody with the ability to think on the margin, it means with 100% certainty that the quality of health professionals will be reduced, particularly in terms of doctors. Leties never think twice about what the cost is for becomming a trained medical professional. Government will most definately remove the incentive. The bozo's can never recognize this...........to them, it all remains static in the world of Disney. Invariably...........when the government gets involved in the decisionmaking process of anything, the market gets screwed. The whole field is dumbed down. Lefties fail to be able to embrace this concept..........its part of the "liberalism is a mental disorder" concept. Its fcukking fascinating.

One, we don't need a partisan hack (thus the use of the phrases "sheep" and "liberalism is a mental disorder") re-interpreting the words of a rational poster.

Two, the argument here is based on the unsupported supposition that a "public option" will force the rest of the insurers out of business.

and

Three, I have NEVER known a "poor" or even "middle class" doctor, with the possible exception of brand new, fresh out of medical school, residents, who happened to work at a free clinic, in a bad area.

Every single doctor I have ever met is at the very least, "well-off" and most are quite rich.

So please, don't give me the "they have trouble paying off medical school debts" sob story, because that is definitely not going to fly.

One major problem that will develop, and one which Obama addressed yesterday and clearly said he "doesn't have all the answers to" is the shortage of primary doctors who don't want to go into more lucrative specialities and how a new influx of folks seeing GPs will affect the program as a whole. I was a little disappointed that he didn't mention the number of doctors who go through med school only to never again pick up a BP monitor or a scalpal and instead choose to join more lucractive Wall Street firms as "consultants" which has contributed to the existing shortage.

 

[MaggieMae]

You do realize that 500 billion is to be slashed from Medicare in the House version of the healthcare bill to help pay for the bill donchya?

Not from benefits.

 

[MaggieMae]

your masters pelosie, hoyer and reid said it and you know it, i can understand your fear of admitting it, seems youre both getting it in the ass.

Really? They said that, specifically about the folks at the McCaskill meeting?

Perhaps you'd like to give us all a link to that?

He's talking about some joint editorial they wrote calling the protesters "unAmerican." It isn't "unAmerican," but when people like Glenn Beck start ranting that the Obama administration has some covert Nazi-esque plan to take over the government, even by exterminating dissenters, there's something terribly wrong with people who actually believe that horse shit.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RI88xPILZG4]YouTube - Glenn Beck Clips 08-11-09 Seg5- Obama Administrations HC Advisors Personel Tree[/ame]

 

[MaggieMae]

Have any of you actually been reading the bill?

I have. Here is a small sample of what is saved on my computer in microsoft word


Text of H.R.3200 as Introduced in House: America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009 - U.S. Congress - OpenCongress

The actual text of health care reform legislation is starting to percolate up from the depths of the committees, and it contains a plethora of hard stops on the freedoms that Americans are guaranteed and have come to expect. President Obama remains inordinately fond of continuing to campaign about all the “choice” he wants us to see in his vision of health care reform, but unfortunately for him what’s in this House version of the bill contains anything but.

Since our unrepresenting representatives can’t be bothered to do so, i'm going to try and read through this bill.

The party line is that if you currently have health insurance, sure, you can keep it. They call this “grandfathering” in your plan. But Section 102: PROTECTING THE CHOICE TO KEEP CURRENT COVERAGE doesn’t protect anything except the government-run “gateways” and “exchanges” because the day you decide to give up your current plan, it’s all over but the shouting because unless you enroll in an employer-provided plan (that must provide no less than exactly the same benefits as the government’s plan), it’s straight into the machine for you.

These are the key excerpts:

(1) LIMITATION ON NEW ENROLLMENT-

(A) IN GENERAL- Except as provided in this paragraph, the individual health insurance issuer offering such coverage does not enroll any individual in such coverage if the first effective date of coverage is on or after the first day of Y1. (notice that this is the sum total of verbiage in “this paragraph”. There are NO exceptions. Health insurers may no longer enroll new plan participants.)

(c) Limitation on Individual Health Insurance Coverage-

(1) IN GENERAL- Individual health insurance coverage that is not grandfathered health insurance coverage under subsection (a) may only be offered on or after the first day of Y1 as an Exchange-participating health benefits plan.
**This means that if a health insurance company wants to stay in business, it must get in bed with the government.**

(2) SEPARATE, EXCEPTED COVERAGE PERMITTED- Excepted benefits (as defined in section 2791(c) of the Public Health Service Act) are not included within the definition of health insurance coverage. Nothing in paragraph (1) shall prevent the offering, other than through the Health Insurance Exchange, of excepted benefits so long as it is offered and priced separately from health insurance coverage.
***How very kind of them. Separate insurance policies will be “permitted” by the government. If you didn’t ask “What are excepted benefits?” then you deserve the government we’ve got today and don’t come crying to us when the govt tells you that your life isn’t worth the cost of saving it. But because I’m feeling generous today, I’ll ask the question for you. What are these “excepted benefits”? Well, basically anything except what we all think of as common medical treatments, such as:

• Coverage only for accident, or disability income insurance, or any combination thereof.
• Coverage issued as a supplement to liability insurance.
• Liability insurance, including general liability insurance and automobile liability insurance.
• Workers’ compensation or similar insurance.
• Automobile medical payment insurance.
• Credit-only insurance.
• Coverage for on-site medical clinics
• Other similar insurance coverage, specified in regulations, under which benefits for medical care are secondary or incidental to other insurance benefits.

Not exactly the “choice” the President, Pelosi, Reid, and the rest of the government are leading you to believe, is it?
So just what happens to your “health care” once the government gets their guaranteed hold of it?

Tis the question that will kill this bill.

Except that I hope you do realize that the original House bill doesn't look anything like what will come out out the Senate Finance Committee. We haven't seen that yet. It will then go to the full Senate for debate; then if passed, to House & Senate conference and back to the Senate for enactment. There's still a looooooooooooooooooooong way to go.

 

[MaggieMae]

One,... the words of a rational poster.

Thank you

Two, the argument here is based on the unsupported supposition that a "public option" will force the rest of the insurers out of business.

Unsupported, but I think if you read the language of the bill and think about the consequences of that language you will come to the same conclusion that I have. This bill will spell the end of Private Insurance coverage. It does not mandate it, but regardless, it is the stake in the heart. No business can survive if it can not write new business. No business can survive if it can not maintain its costs or boost its revenues.

This bill clearly prevents Private Health Insurers from doing just that.

I wonder how many insurance agents are set to enter the unemployment lines. Not to mention employees of the industry as well.

Three, I have NEVER known a "poor" or even "middle class" doctor, with the possible exception of brand new, fresh out of medical school, residents, who happened to work at a free clinic, in a bad area.

Every single doctor I have ever met is at the very least, "well-off" and most are quite rich.

So please, don't give me the "they have trouble paying off medical school debts" sob story, because that is definitely not going to fly.

Nor have I, but will the government maintain the standard of living of medical professionals once the government has control of the purse strings. I'm betting no.

Immie

Standard of living? What does that mean? Don't you mean standards of practice and/or ethical standards? I think the AMA still requires that doctors maintain their current skills level by periodic testing, do they not? There are plenty of bad doctors just as there are plenty of bad lawyers. In fact, I've seen some studies that suggest if you're really sick, the worst place to be is in a hospital.

 

[Care4all]

How spot on is this post ^^^ ???

The sheep simply have an inability to think on the margin in terms of the tradeoffs. They just cant do it.

Immie.........your last sentence in the above post is compelling. The translation? Well.......to anybody with the ability to think on the margin, it means with 100% certainty that the quality of health professionals will be reduced, particularly in terms of doctors. Leties never think twice about what the cost is for becomming a trained medical professional. Government will most definately remove the incentive. The bozo's can never recognize this...........to them, it all remains static in the world of Disney. Invariably...........when the government gets involved in the decisionmaking process of anything, the market gets screwed. The whole field is dumbed down. Lefties fail to be able to embrace this concept..........its part of the "liberalism is a mental disorder" concept. Its fcukking fascinating.

One, we don't need a partisan hack (thus the use of the phrases "sheep" and "liberalism is a mental disorder") re-interpreting the words of a rational poster.

Two, the argument here is based on the unsupported supposition that a "public option" will force the rest of the insurers out of business.

and

Three, I have NEVER known a "poor" or even "middle class" doctor, with the possible exception of brand new, fresh out of medical school, residents, who happened to work at a free clinic, in a bad area.

Every single doctor I have ever met is at the very least, "well-off" and most are quite rich.

So please, don't give me the "they have trouble paying off medical school debts" sob story, because that is definitely not going to fly.

One major problem that will develop, and one which Obama addressed yesterday and clearly said he "doesn't have all the answers to" is the shortage of primary doctors who don't want to go into more lucrative specialities and how a new influx of folks seeing GPs will affect the program as a whole. I was a little disappointed that he didn't mention the number of doctors who go through med school only to never again pick up a BP monitor or a scalpal and instead choose to join more lucractive Wall Street firms as "consultants" which has contributed to the existing shortage.

One of the questions we may want to ask ourselves is whether we want to assist more people in becoming doctors by offering to give more university grants to those in medical school and nursing school or to help increase the sizes of the various medical schools throughout our country or even partly funding... the adding of additional medical or nursing schools ....there is a major shortage of doctors and nurses throughout the entire country and most of the baby boomers haven't hit their latter years where medicine and doctors and nurses become very important to their living a decent life....let alone having enough doctors available for the younger sect of society that may need them...

where there is a shortage in supply compared to the demand, then prices for the supply on hand tend to go WAY UP in price.... we need to increase the supply, by increasing doctors and nurses and medical techs on hand.... imo....

And also by reducing the demand...and not by excluding people from getting the service, but by getting Americans on the road to healthier lifestyles through educating and informing...

 

[MaggieMae]

Would someone please convince me that a bean counter is capable of knowing what is best for me?

No, because a bean counter is capable of no such thing. That's what doctors are for. There is nothing I've read in this bill allowing the kind of decision making power for individual cases that we currently have to deal with from the purely private insurance companies.

I know someone who's a nurse and works for an insurance company. Her boss is a doctor. IOW, it's not really fair to say that it's only "bean counters" who are making decisions at insurance companies. It's just that at the same time, it's not fair to make the assumption that a publicly-run insurance co. is going to be any more or less calculating in their decision-making.

Here's what the insurance industry bean counters use as their guidelines. Which is more intrusive? The government or private insurers knowing how often you've picked up an STD?

http://www.opic.state.tx.us/docs/442_2007_health_ug.pdf

 

[MaggieMae]

As long as they have a good product and the government plan has to sustain itself through premiums and other non-tax revenue, private insurers should be able to compete with the government plan, Obama said.

"They do it all the time," he said. "UPS and FedEx are doing just fine. ... It's the Post Office that's always having problems."

That's our president trying to sell a government run health care plan, you need to ask yourself why you would want a government run anything when it's very clear that even the Mesiah thinks the government run postal service is a failure.

Sorry, but the one is you for misinterpretation. That was in response to the question or statement that private industry will be driven out because they won't be able to effectively compete. Obama was pointing out how successful both UPS and FedEx are (private industry) even though their competition is the United States government. It was a no-brainer, hon.

 

[Skull Pilot]

As long as they have a good product and the government plan has to sustain itself through premiums and other non-tax revenue, private insurers should be able to compete with the government plan, Obama said.

"They do it all the time," he said. "UPS and FedEx are doing just fine. ... It's the Post Office that's always having problems."

That's our president trying to sell a government run health care plan, you need to ask yourself why you would want a government run anything when it's very clear that even the Mesiah thinks the government run postal service is a failure.

Sorry, but the one is you for misinterpretation. That was in response to the question or statement that private industry will be driven out because they won't be able to effectively compete. Obama was pointing out how successful both UPS and FedEx are (private industry) even though their competition is the United States government. It was a no-brainer, hon.

not a valid comparison.

The government does not dictate what UPS and Fed Ex charge to deliver a package.

where the government will limit what insurance companies can charge in both premium and out of pocket expenses in policies but will increase benefit pay out an infinite amount.

 

[MaggieMae]

As long as they have a good product and the government plan has to sustain itself through premiums and other non-tax revenue, private insurers should be able to compete with the government plan, Obama said.

"They do it all the time," he said. "UPS and FedEx are doing just fine. ... It's the Post Office that's always having problems."

That's our president trying to sell a government run health care plan, you need to ask yourself why you would want a government run anything when it's very clear that even the Mesiah thinks the government run postal service is a failure.

As I said in the other thread you posted this in:

"Asked to clarify, the White House said Obama was pointing out that while core Postal Service services are different from those offered by UPS and FedEx, it has not undermined the competitive spirit of the private shipping industry."

The post office is an entirely different animal than the private shippers. They do the bulk of mail across the country, the cheap mail that is.

The point being, you can get the bare essential, cheap, public health plan (tthe post office) or you will be able to opt for the more expensive private health plans, which have better service (FedEx).

And, for the price they charge and the volume they handle, the post office does a pretty good job thank you very much.

funny how everyone else is always rushing to obamas aid to clarify what he says since he finds it so difficult to spit it out himself.


post office = obams nationalist free clinic...take a number, stand in line, wait for your number, talk to an underworked overpaid asshole beurocrat, pay an additional fee to the taxes you pay for your "free" government healthscam.

just like the department of motor vehicles...walk in take a number stand in line wait for your number talk to a underworked overpaid asshole Beurocrat pay a fee get shit for service.

obamas free clinic = the department of motor vehicles.

For someone who has difficulty putting together a cohesive sentence, you either need to go back and finish grammar school or sober up if you want to be taken seriously.

 

[MaggieMae]

hey!-- i wonder if we'll be lucky enough to get Rep. Sheila Jackson-Lee on the "death panel"?-- here's how she feels about her constituents, especially white ones who have cancer-- i'm just sayin'-- Regards, probus YouTube - Rep. Sheila Jackson Lee talks on the phone as a woman asks a question at a town hall event

BFD. What was so awful about that? Where did race enter into it? Now you're fucking mind readers?

 

[MaggieMae]

then don't go with the public option if you are somehow? in fear of such and go with the NUMEROUS PRIVATE Insurers available to you on the Insurance Exchange?

That is BS, my dear, the so called "Private Exchange" will be so governed by the Feds that they will be indestinguishable from the Public Option. The private pool will be government insurance with a corporate name on it.

Immie

Do you think the Private Insurance Corporations responsible and charged with making their shareholders profitable would agree to these new regulations in insurance reform, with the exception of a public/coop option, if they thought they couldn't make a buck off of it or if their business analysis of the reform came to the conclusion that this gvt reform would be the downfall of them?

to me immie, common sense says no...that's all I am thinking...and more on the lines of this being a GIFT HORSE to the Insurance companies who do nothing but push paper and provide no actual medical care to anyone....

Care

Are the hundreds of insurance companies under the AIG umbrella going to go out of business? Hardly. If that was the intent of the US Government, AIG would not have been bailed out in the first place.

 

[PoliticalChic]

As I said in the other thread you posted this in:

"Asked to clarify, the White House said Obama was pointing out that while core Postal Service services are different from those offered by UPS and FedEx, it has not undermined the competitive spirit of the private shipping industry."

The post office is an entirely different animal than the private shippers. They do the bulk of mail across the country, the cheap mail that is.

The point being, you can get the bare essential, cheap, public health plan (tthe post office) or you will be able to opt for the more expensive private health plans, which have better service (FedEx).

And, for the price they charge and the volume they handle, the post office does a pretty good job thank you very much.

funny how everyone else is always rushing to obamas aid to clarify what he says since he finds it so difficult to spit it out himself.


post office = obams nationalist free clinic...take a number, stand in line, wait for your number, talk to an underworked overpaid asshole beurocrat, pay an additional fee to the taxes you pay for your "free" government healthscam.

just like the department of motor vehicles...walk in take a number stand in line wait for your number talk to a underworked overpaid asshole Beurocrat pay a fee get shit for service.

obamas free clinic = the department of motor vehicles.

For someone who has difficulty putting together a cohesive sentence, you either need to go back and finish grammar school or sober up if you want to be taken seriously.

Ah, my friend, Maggie the Magician.

It seems that my post #67 so devastated you that you disappeared, and here you are again, reappearing.

Recall, you made the absurd post that the Democrats should be estimeemed because they have found a way to save money, which we all know is the raison d'etre of the Dems, by limiting pharmaceuticals and procedures for the ill and the elderly.

Brilliant.

Subsequent to your absurb post, I listed eight- not a thousand- eight proposals none of which occurred to you or your Democrat friends, and challenged you find problems with the eight, as I have disposed of your attempt to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.

That's when you disappeared.

 

[Immanuel]

Do you think the Private Insurance Corporations responsible and charged with making their shareholders profitable would agree to these new regulations in insurance reform, with the exception of a public/coop option, if they thought they couldn't make a buck off of it or if their business analysis of the reform came to the conclusion that this gvt reform would be the downfall of them?

to me immie, common sense says no...that's all I am thinking...and more on the lines of this being a GIFT HORSE to the Insurance companies who do nothing but push paper and provide no actual medical care to anyone....

Care

Care,

This will be the end of Private Health Insurance. This so call exchange poop, er "pool" but poop is more approriate, will only contain so-called private plans that fit the minnimum/maximum coverages authorized by the government meaning there will be no options. Much like Social Security. You will have one option and one option only. Plans in the pool will not be allowed to offer anything different than the government option and at the price the government tells them to offer it in. Would you as a business person risk running a business in such a manner? That is what makes this such a terrible plan.

Many people chose higher deductibles in order to lower their costs. That option will be a thing of the past. Insurance companies will be told what deductibles they can offer and you can pretty much guess that there won't be many, if any, options.

Basically, the government will tell the "private insurers" what they can and can not offer. Basically the Private Insurers will be publicly run and no different than the government fund. Basically, you will have one option and that is all.

Buh bye to the private insurer and buh bye to your right to chose the plan that fills your needs best.

Immie