Fascism

[westwall]

And people like you fail abysmally at debating and have to resort to personal insults. .

Yet you support Wry Catcher, who started this in the clean debate section but immediately started calling people names.

I do? Thread was moved. Not sure if you noticed that bit.

In the meantime - do you have anything to add on the topic of fascism? I don't think Trump is fascist, yet, but there are some tendancies. I also do not think that our system of government would allow a fascist system to rise.

Our government has absolutely been allowing fascism to rise. Crony capitalism is the first iteration of fascism. The politicians put in place by the corporations pass laws that benefit them, but put their competition out of business. That was the beginning of the Nazi Party, the big corporations were worried about a communist takeover so they installed their own government that they felt they could control. The problem is the tail began to wag the dog, and then the tail figured out it no longer needed the dog, so beat it into submission.

 

[12icer]

While we are schooling WHAT does NAZI stand for, and on what was it pushed into the society of Germany?

 

[Coyote]

Whaaaat? You're all over the place. Ask the aborted fetus. There, a new tangent.

Not at all.

In unregulated capitalism - human life has very little value. Let's not derail into an abortion debate.

Actually, it has tremendous value or capitalism wouldn't exist....

That's patently untrue. In capitalism - the only thing of value is the bottom line, and human lives are just another commodity. If that were case, there would be no need to have laws regulating the number of hours a person can work, mandating safety standards, ending child labor, etc.

You are trolling or out of touch with reality beyond all human comprehension.

I have been a business owner for 32 years and have known many many others. Money is not the bottom line on many occasions. You have to pay the bills but often there are more considerations involved. Quit jerking us around!

Yep. I have employees I pay more than I do myself.

This entire notion that capitalism is inherently evil can only come from a certain extreme segment of the population.

I don't think it's inherently evil. What I say is as a system it has no moral compass. It's amoral if anything. So it's up to the people practicing it or the people regulating it to instil some sort of moral system. One political side feels that it's entirely up to the employers to give it any ethical boundaries, that the state has no right to interfere. The other side feels it's up to the state to do so, that the employers can't be trusted to do so.

Reality is both are needed. There are companies and employers that treat their employees very well. There are others that don't.

 

[bripat9643]

That is what you implied in your post to Coyote. There are few people who are malicious. That's the point. Most are merely uninformed. It is our duty to inform those who wish to learn. Insulting them doesn't help, nor does it impress those sitting on the sidelines trying to learn.

I disagree with your theory that few people are malicious. If you want to see the proof of that, just watch this video:



Your also mistaken if you believe people like Coyote are capable of "learning" anything. Her views are set in concrete. The more irrefutable the facts and logic you post are, the harder she will defend her delusions.

Wrong. I used to be like Coyote, I learned. Most of the members of La Raza are not malicious. There are some who are however, and quite virulently at that. Once again you wish to paint all with the brush that should only be applied to the few.

My wife is Hispanic, and she tells me stories all the time about other Hispanics she works with. A lot them are quite content to collect welfare and gloat about how dumb Americans are to pay them for doing nothing.

 

[westwall]

So now your claiming that fascism and socialism have no relation to the left/right political spectrum?

You've argued yourself into a circle. You've been claiming for this entire thread that fascism is "right wing," but now you just admitted that calling it "right wing" is bullshit.

Actually if you read what I wrote (which you don't seem very good at) - I've stated the following. Hitler's Nazism is largely regarded as neither right nor left, but a mess of both and unique and I've posted sources for that already. Fascism is widely regarded as rightwing. Socialism as leftwing.

In fact both Stalinism and Nazism have become their own categories.

Here is what you just said:

1. Hitler's Nazism is largely regarded as neither right nor left, but a mess of both
2. Fascism is widely regarded as right wing.

You posted two sentences in sequence that contradict other. That's pretty much the story of this whole thread: one failed attempt at committing logic after another.

How do they contradict each other?
Nazism.
Fascism.

I've linked to sources already so I'm not going to repeat that.

Nazism is fascism.

Where some disagree with you on that is that fascism did not have a racial component to it and Nazism is primarily a racial superiority ideology.

Actually it isn't. Once again racial superiority was a tool. It is easier to kill an opponent if you think they are less than you. That's why they used the term sub human. It is all about political indoctrination. It was merely a propaganda tool to convince the people that the evil they were doing was righteous. The Nazis were huge into eugenics.

 

[Wry Catcher]

.....I also have a Master's Degree from SFSU. Do I now win the pissing contest, or does dogshit claim victory.?

If you are truly that educated, then you should be familiar with the fallacy of argumentum ad verecundiam. I have an MS in International Relations from Troy University. What does that mean other than accomplishing a program of education? Nothing if I cannot back up any discussion on this forum with facts.

I am familiar with the appeal to authority fallacy; the author of the 14-points has a Doctorate in Political Science, which obviates your implied criticism of my point as a logical fallacy. In fact, as I have posted ad nausea, Rense was the first link to pop up when I googled the 14-points, and not making a habit of viewing of hate web sites, I would not and did not know that Rense is an anti Semite.

No one has yet commented on the 14-points used as tools used by demagogues and despots to achieve and maintain power. As you have a Master's in IR, you must have studied the means and methods used to maintain their power by the military and psychological and quasi legal means.

You obviously don't understand what the fallacy of the appeal to authority is. It doesn't mean that your claim is false because your authority isn't legitimate. There are no legitimate authorities when it comes to matters of absolute truth. The theory of gravity is either true or it isn't. It's not true because Isaac Newton says so.

Lawrence Britt is the original author of the "14 points of fascism." He's a marketing executive. He has no credentials that qualify him to make determinations like the one you favor. So, according to your own invalid understanding of the appeal to authority, your claim fails.

All your doing here is proving what a dumbass you are.

Really, you have evidence Britt is a "marketing executive" and does not have an advanced degree in Political Science? Post the evidence!

 

[Coyote]

While we are schooling WHAT does NAZI stand for, and on what was it pushed into the society of Germany?

You should have read the earlier parts of the thread. The origins of the term Nazi were already discussed.

And it's about as accurate as the Democratic Peoples Republic of Korea.

 

[Kondor3]

Who decides what a life is worth?

Whaaaat? You're all over the place. Ask the aborted fetus. There, a new tangent.

Not at all.

In unregulated capitalism - human life has very little value. Let's not derail into an abortion debate.

Actually, it has tremendous value or capitalism wouldn't exist....

That's patently untrue. In capitalism - the only thing of value is the bottom line, and human lives are just another commodity. If that were case, there would be no need to have laws regulating the number of hours a person can work, mandating safety standards, ending child labor, etc.

No, it's an human desiring something....

I am against labor laws, safety standards, and anything that infringes upon the individual.....

Then you must be a Robber Baron rather than a Worker Bee...

 

[westwall]

No, Coyote is c

Tell that to Massey.

I'm not saying you don't care. But clearly, there are others who do not unless the financial cost becomes to high. I'm also talking historically - we would not have enacted those laws had there not been a need. Human life was cheap.

I think you'll find many of the abuses came from those in bed with government. It's how many got big. There's nothing about the system of capitalism that dictates human worth. You are applying your own terms to the words. Capitalism is private ownership. Period. It does not mean greedy, evil or inhumane, just private ownership.

I think that's a convenient excuse for greedy, evil, inhumane behavior.

There's nothing about the system of capitalism that dictates human worth. EXACTLY. Now you get it.

What "greedy, evil, inhumane behavior" does it excuse?

Under capitalism, the consumers dictate the value of your labor. The concept of "human worth," is so nebulous that it's meaningless.

No, Coyote is correct. When capitalism was first flexing its muscles it treated human beings very poorly. I will grant you that it was the leadership of the company that dictated that and not capitalism as a philosophy, but the reality is that slaves in the southern US had a better life than the Irish factory workers did in the North. That's because they were property and property has a value. The workers in the north were considered nothing more than a necessary nuisance.

No she isn't. When capitalism was "first flexing it's muscles," life generally sucked. It was hard. Infant mortality was sky high. Women had 6-10 children because more than half of them would die before they reached adulthood. Making a living in a factory was hard, but it wasn't as hard as farming to make a living.

If slaves had it better, then why did they always try to escape and then head North when they did? If life in the factory was so bad, then why did people leave the farm and flock to the factory towns?

They didn't. After the Civil War many slaves stayed where they were. Just like a company in the north some of the plantations were nice and the slaves lived very well. You use far too many generalizations. Take a look at the average life expectancy's for workers in the north and the slaves. It was better for the slaves!

 

[12icer]

While we are schooling WHAT does NAZI stand for, and on what was it pushed into the society of Germany?

You should have read the earlier parts of the thread. The origins of the term Nazi were already discussed.

And it's about as accurate as the Democratic Peoples Republic of Korea.

Then give your ACCURATE UNDERSTANDING of it's beginnings. I am watching.

 

[westwall]

That is what you implied in your post to Coyote. There are few people who are malicious. That's the point. Most are merely uninformed. It is our duty to inform those who wish to learn. Insulting them doesn't help, nor does it impress those sitting on the sidelines trying to learn.

I disagree with your theory that few people are malicious. If you want to see the proof of that, just watch this video:



Your also mistaken if you believe people like Coyote are capable of "learning" anything. Her views are set in concrete. The more irrefutable the facts and logic you post are, the harder she will defend her delusions.

Wrong. I used to be like Coyote, I learned. Most of the members of La Raza are not malicious. There are some who are however, and quite virulently at that. Once again you wish to paint all with the brush that should only be applied to the few.

My wife is Hispanic, and she tells me stories all the time about other Hispanics she works with. A lot them are quite content to collect welfare and gloat about how dumb Americans are to pay them for doing nothing.

That is very true. Guess what, they amount to at most 20% of the illegals here. The rest are workers. I am still opposed to them being allowed to stay here because they create a two tier wage system and that harms ALL Americans.

 

[Coyote]

Actually if you read what I wrote (which you don't seem very good at) - I've stated the following. Hitler's Nazism is largely regarded as neither right nor left, but a mess of both and unique and I've posted sources for that already. Fascism is widely regarded as rightwing. Socialism as leftwing.

In fact both Stalinism and Nazism have become their own categories.

Here is what you just said:

1. Hitler's Nazism is largely regarded as neither right nor left, but a mess of both
2. Fascism is widely regarded as right wing.

You posted two sentences in sequence that contradict other. That's pretty much the story of this whole thread: one failed attempt at committing logic after another.

How do they contradict each other?
Nazism.
Fascism.

I've linked to sources already so I'm not going to repeat that.

Nazism is fascism.

Where some disagree with you on that is that fascism did not have a racial component to it and Nazism is primarily a racial superiority ideology.

Actually it isn't. Once again racial superiority was a tool. It is easier to kill an opponent if you think they are less than you. That's why they used the term sub human. It is all about political indoctrination. It was merely a propaganda tool to convince the people that the evil they were doing was righteous. The Nazis were huge into eugenics.

I disagree with that. Yes, I agree it's easier to kill when you dehumanize a group. But it wasn't just doing that. It was building up the idea of a master race - the Aryan race. What made it easy to sell was the overall postwar climate in Germany at the time which was dismal and humiliating. Eugenics was also becoming a prominant movement around the world and that fed into it. But the entire Nazi ideology revolved around the idea of racial superiority of the German people - that was absolutely central and distinctively different than other fascist movements. Hitler borrowed from different ideologies to make his own.

 

[bripat9643]

.....I also have a Master's Degree from SFSU. Do I now win the pissing contest, or does dogshit claim victory.?

If you are truly that educated, then you should be familiar with the fallacy of argumentum ad verecundiam. I have an MS in International Relations from Troy University. What does that mean other than accomplishing a program of education? Nothing if I cannot back up any discussion on this forum with facts.

I am familiar with the appeal to authority fallacy; the author of the 14-points has a Doctorate in Political Science, which obviates your implied criticism of my point as a logical fallacy. In fact, as I have posted ad nausea, Rense was the first link to pop up when I googled the 14-points, and not making a habit of viewing of hate web sites, I would not and did not know that Rense is an anti Semite.

No one has yet commented on the 14-points used as tools used by demagogues and despots to achieve and maintain power. As you have a Master's in IR, you must have studied the means and methods used to maintain their power by the military and psychological and quasi legal means.

You obviously don't understand what the fallacy of the appeal to authority is. It doesn't mean that your claim is false because your authority isn't legitimate. There are no legitimate authorities when it comes to matters of absolute truth. The theory of gravity is either true or it isn't. It's not true because Isaac Newton says so.

Lawrence Britt is the original author of the "14 points of fascism." He's a marketing executive. He has no credentials that qualify him to make determinations like the one you favor. So, according to your own invalid understanding of the appeal to authority, your claim fails.

All your doing here is proving what a dumbass you are.

Really, you have evidence Britt is a "marketing executive" and does not have an advanced degree in Political Science? Post the evidence!

Fascism? No One? A Response to "Dr." Laurence Britt

There is no “Dr. Laurence Britt, political scientist” and there never was. There is only Laurence Britt, former executive and author of a single book, who wrote the 14 Signs. Far from being anything resembling an expert on politics, much less Fascism specifically, Britt is a former corporate executive who worked for such corporations as Allied Chemical, Mobil and Xerox Corp and studied business at Northwestern University. Armed with this information, I was able to even find a comment made by Mr Britt himself on a blog regarding his original article and the case of mistaken identity:

“For your information I never made a claim that I was a “Dr.” Someone on the internet made that ASSUMPTION when they passed on the article. I am a retired businessman with a life long interest in history and current events. I have a personal book collection on these subjects of over 3000 volumes. I’ve contributed chapters to three books, written another and am working on a second. I’ve written approximately 25 magazine and newspaper articles on political and economic affairs. I spent about 200 hours researching the fascism article building on a lifetime interest in the subject. My novel, “June, 2004″ was written in 1997 and published in 1998. It was a fictional treatment of a future of fascism in America, which has turned out quite predictive of actual events since it was published.”​

 

[bripat9643]

That is what you implied in your post to Coyote. There are few people who are malicious. That's the point. Most are merely uninformed. It is our duty to inform those who wish to learn. Insulting them doesn't help, nor does it impress those sitting on the sidelines trying to learn.

I disagree with your theory that few people are malicious. If you want to see the proof of that, just watch this video:



Your also mistaken if you believe people like Coyote are capable of "learning" anything. Her views are set in concrete. The more irrefutable the facts and logic you post are, the harder she will defend her delusions.

Wrong. I used to be like Coyote, I learned. Most of the members of La Raza are not malicious. There are some who are however, and quite virulently at that. Once again you wish to paint all with the brush that should only be applied to the few.

My wife is Hispanic, and she tells me stories all the time about other Hispanics she works with. A lot them are quite content to collect welfare and gloat about how dumb Americans are to pay them for doing nothing.

That is very true. Guess what, they amount to at most 20% of the illegals here. The rest are workers. I am still opposed to them being allowed to stay here because they create a two tier wage system and that harms ALL Americans.

It's hard to know how many posses that attitude without polling them, and even then they would probably lie about it if they did.

 

[westwall]

Here is what you just said:

1. Hitler's Nazism is largely regarded as neither right nor left, but a mess of both
2. Fascism is widely regarded as right wing.

You posted two sentences in sequence that contradict other. That's pretty much the story of this whole thread: one failed attempt at committing logic after another.

How do they contradict each other?
Nazism.
Fascism.

I've linked to sources already so I'm not going to repeat that.

Nazism is fascism.

Where some disagree with you on that is that fascism did not have a racial component to it and Nazism is primarily a racial superiority ideology.

Actually it isn't. Once again racial superiority was a tool. It is easier to kill an opponent if you think they are less than you. That's why they used the term sub human. It is all about political indoctrination. It was merely a propaganda tool to convince the people that the evil they were doing was righteous. The Nazis were huge into eugenics.

I disagree with that. Yes, I agree it's easier to kill when you dehumanize a group. But it wasn't just doing that. It was building up the idea of a master race - the Aryan race. What made it easy to sell was the overall postwar climate in Germany at the time which was dismal and humiliating. Eugenics was also becoming a prominant movement around the world and that fed into it. But the entire Nazi ideology revolved around the idea of racial superiority of the German people - that was absolutely central and distinctively different than other fascist movements. Hitler borrowed from different ideologies to make his own.

All of which was part of the eugenics movement. Which was in vogue here in the US as well. Take a look at the history of Pelagra, a disease that the ruling elite ignored because it mainly affected the lower classes. Until the Great Depression inflicted it upon the elite. Then suddenly they cared. Everything that you wish to accuse the Germans of doing was also done HERE. Just not to the same extent, and our guilty politicians had people rewrite the history books to hide it.

 

[westwall]

That is what you implied in your post to Coyote. There are few people who are malicious. That's the point. Most are merely uninformed. It is our duty to inform those who wish to learn. Insulting them doesn't help, nor does it impress those sitting on the sidelines trying to learn.

I disagree with your theory that few people are malicious. If you want to see the proof of that, just watch this video:



Your also mistaken if you believe people like Coyote are capable of "learning" anything. Her views are set in concrete. The more irrefutable the facts and logic you post are, the harder she will defend her delusions.

Wrong. I used to be like Coyote, I learned. Most of the members of La Raza are not malicious. There are some who are however, and quite virulently at that. Once again you wish to paint all with the brush that should only be applied to the few.

My wife is Hispanic, and she tells me stories all the time about other Hispanics she works with. A lot them are quite content to collect welfare and gloat about how dumb Americans are to pay them for doing nothing.

That is very true. Guess what, they amount to at most 20% of the illegals here. The rest are workers. I am still opposed to them being allowed to stay here because they create a two tier wage system and that harms ALL Americans.

It's hard to know how many posses that attitude without polling them, and even then they would probably lie about it if they did.

You can't know. What you can do is assume the best, but when you learn otherwise you treat THAT individual as they should be.

 

[bripat9643]

No, Coyote is c

I think you'll find many of the abuses came from those in bed with government. It's how many got big. There's nothing about the system of capitalism that dictates human worth. You are applying your own terms to the words. Capitalism is private ownership. Period. It does not mean greedy, evil or inhumane, just private ownership.

I think that's a convenient excuse for greedy, evil, inhumane behavior.

There's nothing about the system of capitalism that dictates human worth. EXACTLY. Now you get it.

What "greedy, evil, inhumane behavior" does it excuse?

Under capitalism, the consumers dictate the value of your labor. The concept of "human worth," is so nebulous that it's meaningless.

No, Coyote is correct. When capitalism was first flexing its muscles it treated human beings very poorly. I will grant you that it was the leadership of the company that dictated that and not capitalism as a philosophy, but the reality is that slaves in the southern US had a better life than the Irish factory workers did in the North. That's because they were property and property has a value. The workers in the north were considered nothing more than a necessary nuisance.

No she isn't. When capitalism was "first flexing it's muscles," life generally sucked. It was hard. Infant mortality was sky high. Women had 6-10 children because more than half of them would die before they reached adulthood. Making a living in a factory was hard, but it wasn't as hard as farming to make a living.

If slaves had it better, then why did they always try to escape and then head North when they did? If life in the factory was so bad, then why did people leave the farm and flock to the factory towns?

They didn't. After the Civil War many slaves stayed where they were. Just like a company in the north some of the plantations were nice and the slaves lived very well. You use far too many generalizations. Take a look at the average life expectancy's for workers in the north and the slaves. It was better for the slaves!

I've never seen any figures on slave life expectancy vs. the life expectancy of free men. Do you have a source? I'd like to see it.

You can't deny the fact that people left the farm and flocked to work in the factories. That's because the alternative is that many of them would end up dead in short order.

All the evidence I've seen is that life expectancy increased dramatically during the industrial revolution. Prior to it, 35 was about the average life expectancy. by the end of the 19th century it was up to 55. That's an increase of 20 years in a century.

 

[Divine Wind]

Show where Hitler said he abhorred socialists, tool

Operation Barbarossa

Outlawing socialism and arresting socialists, communists and trade union leaders
Nazi Terror Begins
In the months after Hitler took power, SA and Gestapo agents went from door to door looking for Hitler's enemies. They arrested Socialists, Communists, trade union leaders, and others who had spoken out against the Nazi party; some were murdered. By the summer of 1933, the Nazi party was the only legal political party in Germany. Nearly all organized opposition to the regime had been eliminated. Democracy was dead in Germany.

 

[bripat9643]

I disagree with your theory that few people are malicious. If you want to see the proof of that, just watch this video:



Your also mistaken if you believe people like Coyote are capable of "learning" anything. Her views are set in concrete. The more irrefutable the facts and logic you post are, the harder she will defend her delusions.

Wrong. I used to be like Coyote, I learned. Most of the members of La Raza are not malicious. There are some who are however, and quite virulently at that. Once again you wish to paint all with the brush that should only be applied to the few.

My wife is Hispanic, and she tells me stories all the time about other Hispanics she works with. A lot them are quite content to collect welfare and gloat about how dumb Americans are to pay them for doing nothing.

That is very true. Guess what, they amount to at most 20% of the illegals here. The rest are workers. I am still opposed to them being allowed to stay here because they create a two tier wage system and that harms ALL Americans.

It's hard to know how many posses that attitude without polling them, and even then they would probably lie about it if they did.

You can't know. What you can do is assume the best, but when you learn otherwise you treat THAT individual as they should be.

Sorry, I don't assume the best about people. I'm invariably disillusioned whenever I do.

 

[westwall]

No, Coyote is c

I think that's a convenient excuse for greedy, evil, inhumane behavior.

There's nothing about the system of capitalism that dictates human worth. EXACTLY. Now you get it.

What "greedy, evil, inhumane behavior" does it excuse?

Under capitalism, the consumers dictate the value of your labor. The concept of "human worth," is so nebulous that it's meaningless.

No, Coyote is correct. When capitalism was first flexing its muscles it treated human beings very poorly. I will grant you that it was the leadership of the company that dictated that and not capitalism as a philosophy, but the reality is that slaves in the southern US had a better life than the Irish factory workers did in the North. That's because they were property and property has a value. The workers in the north were considered nothing more than a necessary nuisance.

No she isn't. When capitalism was "first flexing it's muscles," life generally sucked. It was hard. Infant mortality was sky high. Women had 6-10 children because more than half of them would die before they reached adulthood. Making a living in a factory was hard, but it wasn't as hard as farming to make a living.

If slaves had it better, then why did they always try to escape and then head North when they did? If life in the factory was so bad, then why did people leave the farm and flock to the factory towns?

They didn't. After the Civil War many slaves stayed where they were. Just like a company in the north some of the plantations were nice and the slaves lived very well. You use far too many generalizations. Take a look at the average life expectancy's for workers in the north and the slaves. It was better for the slaves!

I've never seen any figures on slave life expectancy vs. the life expectancy of free men. Do you have a source? I'd like to see it.

You can't deny the fact that people left the farm and flocked to work in the factories. That's because the alternative is that many of them would end up dead in short order.

All the evidence I've seen is that life expectancy increased dramatically during the industrial revolution. Prior to it, 35 was about the average life expectancy. by the end of the 19th century it was up to 55. That's an increase of 20 years in a century.

The reason why the people left the farms is because they were no longer needed on them. Are you really that ignorant of that part of history? Industrialization affected the farms before it did anything else. Add to that the railroads which allowed food to be transported to the cities to feed everyone and yes, industrialization helped to increase the quality of life. Immeasurably. But the factory workers were the last ones to see that benefit.