Fast & Furious isn't going away

[The T]

Gonzalez was forced to resign no? Reno & Holder have not been held accoutable for their horrific crimes. It's time for that to happen. Reno especially,has the blood of many innocent American women & children on her hands. She was never brought to justice. It's just a a disturbing pattern i've noticed with Democratic Attorney Generals. They seem to view fellow American Citizens as the enemy. Holder has to go. He is an enemy of the State.

Lest we see more scenarios as this:

Confirm and conform. Become the Statist you can be...or else...

Boy,talk about Nazi Storm Troopers? That was a terrible abuse of power by Reno. The woman has never been held accountable for her crimes. Holder hasn't either.

Holder won't go unless the Congress demands it or Obama is defeated.

Heck? Obama had to BEG Timmy Geitner to stay on until at least through the election...

 

[westwall]

I thought this was about the movie franchise. Phew!

Leave it to a supposed caring lefty to trivialise the murder of a US agent and human being.

Despicable.

 

[Truthmatters]

Just like Rush made fun of the peopel who died in this latest storm in hte east?

 

[The T]

Just like Rush made fun of the peopel who died in this latest storm in hte east?

LINK?

 

[westwall]

This program was conceived to give government an excuse for an all out assault on our 2nd amendment rights. I hope all involved rot in our worst prisons and some get tried for the murder of Brian Terry. May they all burn in hell!

It sounds like a sting to try and trace illegal gun sales to criminals, to include Mexican cartels like the Zetas.

In other words, to crack down on the guys conducting illegal weapons trafficking.

And it sounds like they botched it.

However, since the 2nd amendment fanatics talking point is always: "No new gun laws! Enforce the laws on the books!" I fail to see what the problem is with trying to keep weapons from being illegally distributed.

Law enforcement does this with narcotics all the time.

Does it look bad? Definitely. It's tragic a border guard was killed with a weapon our government put on the street.

What does this have to do with legitimate gun owners who legally have purchased weapons?

If you actually look at the whole program there was no effort to trace weapons at all. They waited to trace them through crime scenes and reports. That is insane and criminally negligent homicide in the case of those who oversaw such a braindead program.


So you are left with these two possibilities. Either the government people involved are outright criminals who were trying to subvert the 2nd Amendment of the US through nefarious means, or they are so incredibly stupid that the fact that they were allowed to be employed by any government organisation calls into question the competence of ALL government employees.

No organisation I know of would employ people that stupid. Much less promote them after they failed so spectacularly. If that is an acceptable government to you then any atrocity the government perpetrates will obviously be just fine with you.

 

[LibocalypseNow]

I thought this was about the movie franchise. Phew!

Leave it to a supposed caring lefty to trivialise the murder of a US agent and human being.

Despicable.

Well it is a Democrat doing the murdering so all is well with moronic Democrats. Just like how they worship the Murderous Drunkard Ted Kennedy. If a Republican was in there right now,you can bet the CNN,N.Y. Times,and NBC douchebags would be screeching for Impeachment over this. It is sad but it is what it is.

 

[Dr.Traveler]

Very doubtful this gets as far as Obama. An operation like this isn't something that would have likely risen to the level of needed Presidential Authorization. As long as he doesn't perjure himself trying to cover up the whole thing like Nixon, Libby, or Clinton, he's likely in the clear.

I could see Holder getting implicated, but in the end, for what? It's a pretty standard law enforcement practice to try to track the flow of illegal goods by not immediately sweeping up the contraband. The worst thing they're guilty of here is incompetence. But an actual crime on the part of the Federal Government or its employees? No.

 

[geauxtohell]

If you actually look at the whole program there was no effort to trace weapons at all. They waited to trace them through crime scenes and reports. That is insane and criminally negligent homicide in the case of those who oversaw such a braindead program.

Criminally negligent homicide is driving drunk, getting into an accident, and killing someone. It requires that the guilty party actually be fully responsible for the death of the person. Lending your car to someone you know is intoxicated to drive might be negligence, but it is not negligent homicide.

Can we discuss this issue without absurd hyperbole?

It might have been a stupid operation, that doesn't mean it was an illegal operation.

So you are left with these two possibilities. Either the government people involved are outright criminals who were trying to subvert the 2nd Amendment of the US through nefarious means, or they are so incredibly stupid that the fact that they were allowed to be employed by any government organisation calls into question the competence of ALL government employees.

Again, I fail to see how this is an assault on the second amendment. Were law abiding gun owners involved in this at all? Obviously, if the weapons found there way into the hand of the drug cartels, there was some criminality involved.

No organisation I know of would employ people that stupid. Much less promote them after they failed so spectacularly. If that is an acceptable government to you then any atrocity the government perpetrates will obviously be just fine with you.

I didn't say it was acceptable. Frankly, it's hard to get many facts at this point as the issue is laden with hyperbole. I just doubt this was the targeting of law abiding citizens or an attempt to subvert the 2nd amendment, which is what has been claimed here.

 

[LibocalypseNow]

Your Taxpayer Dollars armed the Mexican Drug Cartels and caused an untold amount of brutal murders. Seems pretty criminal to me. Holder needs to be held accountable.

 

[geauxtohell]

Your Taxpayer Dollars armed the Mexican Drug Cartels and caused an untold amount of brutal murders. Seems pretty criminal to me. Holder needs to be held accountable.

Like Iran Contra.... Only more transparent and without the President lying!

 

[The T]

Your Taxpayer Dollars armed the Mexican Drug Cartels and caused an untold amount of brutal murders. Seems pretty criminal to me. Holder needs to be held accountable.

Like Iran Contra.... Only more transparent and without the President lying!

This is much larger than I/C by a long shot. I note that the Obama protectors better known as the media aren't covering this as they did on I/C...

 

[westwall]

If you actually look at the whole program there was no effort to trace weapons at all. They waited to trace them through crime scenes and reports. That is insane and criminally negligent homicide in the case of those who oversaw such a braindead program.

Criminally negligent homicide is driving drunk, getting into an accident, and killing someone. It requires that the guilty party actually be fully responsible for the death of the person. Lending your car to someone you know is intoxicated to drive might be negligence, but it is not negligent homicide.

Can we discuss this issue without absurd hyperbole?

It might have been a stupid operation, that doesn't mean it was an illegal operation.

So you are left with these two possibilities. Either the government people involved are outright criminals who were trying to subvert the 2nd Amendment of the US through nefarious means, or they are so incredibly stupid that the fact that they were allowed to be employed by any government organisation calls into question the competence of ALL government employees.

Again, I fail to see how this is an assault on the second amendment. Were law abiding gun owners involved in this at all? Obviously, if the weapons found there way into the hand of the drug cartels, there was some criminality involved.

No organisation I know of would employ people that stupid. Much less promote them after they failed so spectacularly. If that is an acceptable government to you then any atrocity the government perpetrates will obviously be just fine with you.

I didn't say it was acceptable. Frankly, it's hard to get many facts at this point as the issue is laden with hyperbole. I just doubt this was the targeting of law abiding citizens or an attempt to subvert the 2nd amendment, which is what has been claimed here.

You need to look up some more definitions. Allowing an action to occur where a reasonable chance exists for a death to occur (and who can argue against that when the KNOWN recipients were violent drug gangs) is also covered. Both at the Federal level and at the State level.

The facts that have been released are damning in the extreme that's why the Feds are trying to destroy as much evidence as possible.

The fact remains that there is no evidence that drug gangs have been buying the majority of their weapons from illegal sources in the US. There are fully automatic AK-47's to be had by the barge load out of Central and South America for far less then the price of a US non full auto self loading rifle.

Other then what the Feds have been doing in AZ, TX and FL that is. All the while there have been statements made from Mexican authorities and US authorities decrying the export of illegal weapons.

It shouldn't take a rocket scientist to figure out the connection.

 

[The T]

If you actually look at the whole program there was no effort to trace weapons at all. They waited to trace them through crime scenes and reports. That is insane and criminally negligent homicide in the case of those who oversaw such a braindead program.

Criminally negligent homicide is driving drunk, getting into an accident, and killing someone. It requires that the guilty party actually be fully responsible for the death of the person. Lending your car to someone you know is intoxicated to drive might be negligence, but it is not negligent homicide.

Can we discuss this issue without absurd hyperbole?

It might have been a stupid operation, that doesn't mean it was an illegal operation.



Again, I fail to see how this is an assault on the second amendment. Were law abiding gun owners involved in this at all? Obviously, if the weapons found there way into the hand of the drug cartels, there was some criminality involved.

No organisation I know of would employ people that stupid. Much less promote them after they failed so spectacularly. If that is an acceptable government to you then any atrocity the government perpetrates will obviously be just fine with you.

I didn't say it was acceptable. Frankly, it's hard to get many facts at this point as the issue is laden with hyperbole. I just doubt this was the targeting of law abiding citizens or an attempt to subvert the 2nd amendment, which is what has been claimed here.

You need to look up some more definitions. Allowing an action to occur where a reasonable chance exists for a death to occur (and who can argue against that when the KNOWN recipients were violent drug gangs) is also covered. Both at the Federal level and at the State level.

The facts that have been released are damning in the extreme that's why the Feds are trying to destroy as much evidence as possible.

The fact remains that there is no evidence that drug gangs have been buying the majority of their weapons from illegal sources in the US. There are fully automatic AK-47's to be had by the barge load out of Central and South America for far less then the price of a US non full auto self loading rifle.

Other then what the Feds have been doing in AZ, TX and FL that is. All the while there have been statements made from Mexican authorities and US authorities decrying the export of illegal weapons.

It shouldn't take a rocket scientist to figure out the connection.

And interesting that the ATF head has been moved into a different spot. This whole affair will kill his chances for re-election and he knows it.

 

[whitehall]

The head of the ATF and anyone in the Obama administration who authorized the criminal action should face murder charges for their part in the death of a Border Patrol agent who was killed by one of the weapons. What would the feds do with a rogue gun shop owner who shipped 2,000 illegal weapons to Mexico with one of them ending up killing a Border Patrol officer? He would be facing death by lethal injection faser than you could say Barak Hussein. Why should criminals in federal law enforcement be any different?

 

[westwall]

Your Taxpayer Dollars armed the Mexican Drug Cartels and caused an untold amount of brutal murders. Seems pretty criminal to me. Holder needs to be held accountable.

Like Iran Contra.... Only more transparent and without the President lying!

Care to make a bet on that? This three of around 3000 that are available.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uHiYjvA6GEw]Obama Knew! ATF Agent Shared Fast & Furious Info with White House Last Year - YouTube[/ame]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S7oyXFk4Loc]Eric Holder caught lying to Darrell Issa , commits Perjury - Operation Gun Runner Fast and Furious - YouTube[/ame]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KFfVkRne6QM&feature=results_main&playnext=1&list=PL537769B58CF0C67B]Obama on "Fast and Furious" and immigration - YouTube[/ame]

 

[geauxtohell]

Your Taxpayer Dollars armed the Mexican Drug Cartels and caused an untold amount of brutal murders. Seems pretty criminal to me. Holder needs to be held accountable.

Like Iran Contra.... Only more transparent and without the President lying!

This is much larger than I/C by a long shot. I note that the Obama protectors better known as the media aren't covering this as they did on I/C...

LMFAO.

You are off you fucking rocker. Bigger then illegally selling arms to Iran to fund the CIA's illegal war in Nicaraugia? Violation of multiple laws, to include the Boland act? How Reagan wasn't impeached for that, I'll never know.

But yeah, a local DOJ arms sting gone ary is much bigger then the President violating mutliple laws.

 

[Flagwavrusa]

Why can't you discuss this issue without hyperbole?

Ruby Ridge was a screw up. Waco was a screw up.

However, in both cases, a catastrophe was prompted when American citizens refused to obey the law. If the government has a warrant, they are coming in. You don't just get to tell them to fuck off. That's the way the law works and has always worked, no matter how much you guys want to make it seem like this is some sort of fascist state.

Well in my observations over the years i have noticed a real disdain for fellow American Citizens by Democratic Attorney Generals. Their victims are always fellow Americans. This latest 'Fast & Furious' debacle is just another example of this disturbing pattern. I mean who do they think is the enemy? It looks like they think fellow American Citizens are the enemy. But i see it the other away around. I think it's Holder & Reno who are the real enemies of this Nation. They really are downright deadly.

Disdain? What, do you have coffee with them in the morning? If you are going to play politics, why just limit it to Democrats? What about Al Gonzalez's little warrant-less wiretapping of American citizens? Hmmmm?

As for "Fast and Furious". It looks like a sting operation gone bad. I have yet to see anyone realistically show me how this was intended to target law abiding gun owners.

There’s a lot of reason to believe FAF was something other than a poorly orchestrated law enforcement operation. ATF agent John Dodson, who participated in the operation, told congress, “"I cannot begin to think of how the risk of letting guns fall into the hands of known criminals could possibly advance any legitimate law enforcement interest." Dodson and other ATF field agents were commanded to allow straw purchasers to buy high powered weapons at gun shops and then let them walk away untracked. From the gun shop owners they had the gun's serial numbers, and the plan was to wait for police to recover the weapons at Mexican crime scenes so as to establish a connection to Mexican drug cartels and prosecute them for arms trafficking. Huh? Prosecute drug lords for illegal arms dealing as what, an add on charge to extortion, organized drug trafficking and mass murder? The congressional oversight committee report mockingly stated, "Unfortunately, ATF never achieved the laudable goal of dismantling a drug cartel. In fact, ATF never got close."

The big wigs at DOJ and ATF knew full well that allowing weaponry to flow to Mexico would result in carnage. In fact, that was part of the plan. According to the congressional report, some agents said they "knew that given the large numbers of weapons being trafficked to Mexico (related to the operation), tragic results were a near certainty." In point of fact, crime statistics clearly highlighted the deadly conclusion to many of the guns that were being shipped to Mexico. One of the supervisors of the operation, the recently promoted David Voth, advised the U.S. attorney “Our subjects purchased 359 firearms during the month of March alone, to include numerous Barrett .50 caliber rifles”. Voth further advised that March 2010 was deadliest month in five years in Mexico and also yielded some of the largest movement of weapons from Fast and Furious. Agent Dodson, the agent who blew the whistle on the operation, observed that his supervisors were “elated every time a gun was recovered in Mexico”.

Now the interesting question is what was the real end game of the patently flawed Fast and Furious.

One can imagine Obama holding a press conference. He begins “Today, in conjunction with my good colleagues in the house and senate, I am proposing legislation to fundamentally overhaul our nation’s gun regulation laws. Over the past year we have seen an alarming upsurge in violent crime across the border by ruthless drug cartels who threaten to undermine the security of Mexico. Unfortunately, the recent crime wave has its origins here in this country. Thousands of weapons recovered at Mexican crime scenes have been discovered to have been illegally purchased in the United States and trafficked across the border. This illegal flow of guns is straining our relations with the Mexican government, and is unnecessarily leading to the deaths of innocent civilians. The problem has reached crisis proportions, and requires decisive action.

Accordingly, I am calling upon congress to swiftly pass legislation that will require all gun owners to register their weapons with the BATF and to notify the agency when they have a change of address. It’s the only way we can keep track of these weapons and insure they are not falling into the wrong hands. Additionally, I am proposing restrictions on the number of firearms a household may be permitted to own to a limit of 2 handguns and 2 rifles. The recent violence we have seen bears witness to the need for greater exercise of federal control over gun ownership as a way of avoiding pointless and preventable deaths.”

With their accomplices in the MSM, the administation might have pulled it off but for the whistle being blown, and now they are busy shredding documents, scrubbing files, and promoting people who should be fired.

 

[Article 15]

Like Iran Contra.... Only more transparent and without the President lying!

This is much larger than I/C by a long shot. I note that the Obama protectors better known as the media aren't covering this as they did on I/C...

LMFAO.

You are off you fucking rocker. Bigger then illegally selling arms to Iran to fund the CIA's illegal war in Nicaraugia? Violation of multiple laws, to include the Boland act? How Reagan wasn't impeached for that, I'll never know.

But yeah, a local DOJ arms sting gone ary is much bigger then the President violating mutliple laws.

Well you know, socialism and stuff.

 

[westwall]

Like Iran Contra.... Only more transparent and without the President lying!

This is much larger than I/C by a long shot. I note that the Obama protectors better known as the media aren't covering this as they did on I/C...

LMFAO.

You are off you fucking rocker. Bigger then illegally selling arms to Iran to fund the CIA's illegal war in Nicaraugia? Violation of multiple laws, to include the Boland act? How Reagan wasn't impeached for that, I'll never know.

But yeah, a local DOJ arms sting gone ary is much bigger then the President violating mutliple laws.

If you consider a live feed to the Director of the ATFs office in DC to be local then I want to know when we get to move to Mars.

 

[clevergirl]

When?

They're talking about the raid in Wacco Texas--in the 1990's.

Is that the time when Christian Terrorist and Pedophile David Koresh fired upon ATF agents lawfully exercising a warrant?

Seriously?

Defending a pedophile and terrorist?

Seriously-you rest arrogantly on unsubstantiated accusations? Accusations of him being a pedophile were thin at best...but I digress killing 21 children sure seems to me to be a much worse thing to have happened to those children. Koresh was a whack job- but the ATF and the FBI, at the behest of Reno, were IMO, acting without cause and jurisdiction.


The Fast and Furious is another cluster fuck in the same way as WACO was. Only difference is that they have no "bogey man" to blame as they did with Koresh.