Fbi Report Ends Nra Nonsense About "good Guys With Guns"

[Jarlaxle]

"Its a risk of the job, nothing more, nothing less."

Oh, I see. The idiot who is shooting into the dark at unidentifiable targets with a high powered rifle in a suburban environment in no way is to blame for my neighbor's partner's death. This reasoning is EXACTLY why so many of us do not trust the judgment and mental capacity of a lot of gun nuts.

No matter how many times you shriek BS to the heavens, the fact remains: cops do NOT have a particularly dangerous job. I am more likely to die on the job than a cop is.

 

[2aguy]

No I'm not confused. It is a survey like the ones you keep talking about. This survey shows that 34 percent of defenses end with a dead criminal. It is no different than the surveys you are constantly quoting. So if there are 700k defenses like you claim, then there should be 238k dead criminals each year. Since we know there are about 30k people dying each year from guns including suicide, it's obvious the 700k is made up. Unless you don't believe an NRA survey?

Sorry Brain 357 it doesn't work that way...these gun stories are not random interviews and it would not be a proper scientific sample...it even points out that in the article...

Analysis of Five Years of Armed Encounters With Data Tables

The database is self-selecting in that no non-positive outcomes were reported in the column.

The surveys you don't believe were done by actual criminologists, and professional survey companies...not someone just looking at stories the NRA was able to collect from news sources around the country...so please...try again...

..........................................

So if there are 700k defenses like you claim,

Again...I don't claim this...over 15 seperate gun studies conducted over 20 years, researched by both private and government researchers came up with the numbers..peer reviewed studies no less...

And the most recent...was done by obama's CDC no less...and they studied 19 different studies to come up with their number 500,000-3 million times a year that guns are used to save lives or stop violent crimes...

 

[turtledude]

No I'm not confused. It is a survey like the ones you keep talking about. This survey shows that 34 percent of defenses end with a dead criminal. It is no different than the surveys you are constantly quoting. So if there are 700k defenses like you claim, then there should be 238k dead criminals each year. Since we know there are about 30k people dying each year from guns including suicide, it's obvious the 700k is made up. Unless you don't believe an NRA survey?

An nra survey says 34 percent of defenses ends with a dead criminal. That's 238k dead criminals a year with the 700k number. Obviously that is a ridiculous number. The idea so many are shot and killed and not reported is also quite ridiculous

.Brain 357...this is what has you confused...it isn't an analysis of all gun fights...just those documented on "The Armed Citizen" column....

Analysis of Five Years of Armed Encounters With Data Tables

Overview
For the period 1997 – 2001, reports from “The Armed Citizen” column of the NRA Journals were collected.

most cases of DGU don't make it to a report

 

[Brain357]

This is a survey by the NRA, who would know more about this stuff? Sorry but I see no reason to throw this one out. Take this and add in that we almost never hear about these defenses in the news, and it is clear your numbers are drastically false. You can't say the news wouldn't report people getting shot and killed. Even 68k seems high based on the NRA survey.

No I'm not confused. It is a survey like the ones you keep talking about. This survey shows that 34 percent of defenses end with a dead criminal. It is no different than the surveys you are constantly quoting. So if there are 700k defenses like you claim, then there should be 238k dead criminals each year. Since we know there are about 30k people dying each year from guns including suicide, it's obvious the 700k is made up. Unless you don't believe an NRA survey?

Sorry Brain 357 it doesn't work that way...these gun stories are not random interviews and it would not be a proper scientific sample...it even points out that in the article...

The database is self-selecting in that no non-positive outcomes were reported in the column.

So if there are 700k defenses like you claim,

Again...I don't claim this...over 15 seperate gun studies conducted over 20 years, researched by both private and government researchers came up with the numbers..peer reviewed studies no less...

And the most recent...was done by obama's CDC no less...and they studied 19 different studies to come up with their number 500,000-3 million times a year that guns are used to save lives or stop violent crimes...

 

[2aguy]

In a town I lived in...a man stole a bottle of booze from the corner liquor store...the clerks knew the guy and called the police...two officers and the watch commander went to the guys apartment, when they knocked on the door the guy opened the door and started shooting...the three officers, sadly surprised, dashed around the hallway corner to get out of the line of fire...sadly, one of the officers was hit in the back of the arm...the bullet traveled along the arm and destroyed the nerve...he had to take a medical retirement because he lost the use of the arm...the guy then threw the gun down and was arrested...that didn't make the Chicago news...just the local news...and I have a relative who knows the men involved...

 

[2aguy]

This is a survey by the NRA, who would know more about this stuff?

Brain 357...come on...it isn't a survey by the NRA...they collected the news stories for their column "The Armed Citizen" then this guy looked at all the stories they posted and analyzed those situations...it is not a scientific study, it's methods are simple math, he counted the information from those exact stories...no control groups, no real survey methods, not scientific analysis...please...read it again...

This

 

[Brain357]

I have no problem finding my local news online.... Sorry but those types of excuses don't work anymore.

In a town I lived in...a man stole a bottle of booze from the corner liquor store...the clerks knew the guy and called the police...two officers and the watch commander went to the guys apartment, when they knocked on the door the guy opened the door and started shooting...the three officers, sadly surprised, dashed around the hallway corner to get out of the line of fire...sadly, one of the officers was hit in the back of the arm...the bullet traveled along the arm and destroyed the nerve...he had to take a medical retirement because he lost the use of the arm...the guy then threw the gun down and was arrested...that didn't make the Chicago news...just the local news...and I have a relative who knows the men involved...

 

[2aguy]

This is the guy who looked at the NRA articles...

tacticalprofessor.com

 

[turtledude]

I have used a firearm defensively several times. ONLY ONE made it to a police report and that is because I shot one of the muggers

 

[2aguy]

I have no problem finding my local news online.... Sorry but those types of excuses don't work anymore.

Really...really? That is where you are going to make your stand...since every single shooting incident in the United States is not in every news source, every day, and easily copied from the internet...they didn't actually happen...

That is truly some standard Brain 357...

 

[Brain357]

They looked at 482 incidents. I see no reason why these would not represent defenses of the general population. If this is how they went down for the NRA members it should represent how things would happen with anyone.

For the period 1997 – 2001, reports from “The Armed Citizen” column of the NRA Journals were collected. There were 482 incidents available for inclusion in the analysis. All involved the use of firearms by private citizens in self defense or defense of others. No law enforcement related incidents were included. The database is self-selecting in that no non-positive outcomes were reported in the column.

This is a survey by the NRA, who would know more about this stuff?

Brain 357...come on...it isn't a survey by the NRA...they collected the news stories for their column "The Armed Citizen" then this guy looked at all the stories they posted and analyzed those situations...it is not a scientific study, it's methods are simple math, he counted the information from those exact stories...no control groups, no real survey methods, not scientific analysis...please...read it again...

This

 

[turtledude]

This is the guy who looked at the NRA articles...

tacticalprofessor.com

He's got a good rep.

 

[2aguy]

You do understand that that link is not a study by the NRA...right? Have we gotten that far at least?

 

[turtledude]

They looked at 482 incidents. I see no reason why these would not represent defenses of the general population. If this is how they went down for the NRA members it should represent how things would happen with anyone.

For the period 1997 – 2001, reports from “The Armed Citizen” column of the NRA Journals were collected. There were 482 incidents available for inclusion in the analysis. All involved the use of firearms by private citizens in self defense or defense of others. No law enforcement related incidents were included. The database is self-selecting in that no non-positive outcomes were reported in the column.

This is a survey by the NRA, who would know more about this stuff?

Brain 357...come on...it isn't a survey by the NRA...they collected the news stories for their column "The Armed Citizen" then this guy looked at all the stories they posted and analyzed those situations...it is not a scientific study, it's methods are simple math, he counted the information from those exact stories...no control groups, no real survey methods, not scientific analysis...please...read it again...

This

my shooting was one of those armed citizen reports. what exactly are you braying about?

 

[Brain357]

I don't expect them all, but some reasonable percent of them yes. Shooting stories are pretty exciting news, especially if criminals are killed 34% of the time. You claim 700k defenses each year, yet you could verify maybe 50 if you were lucky for a given year? You'd have to be pretty foolish to think such exciting stories would be so under reported. News organizations want to make money, they would report.

I have no problem finding my local news online.... Sorry but those types of excuses don't work anymore.

Really...really? That is where you are going to make your stand...since every single shooting incident in the United States is not in every news source, every day, and easily copied from the internet...they didn't actually happen...

That is truly some standard Brain 357...

 

[2aguy]

They looked at 482 incidents. I see no reason why these would not represent defenses of the general population. If this is how they went down for the NRA members it should represent how things would happen with anyone.

Look, I'm not a researcher... but even I know that looking at the NRA "Armed Citizen" column...all by itself...is not a scientific survey...it isn't any sort of survey...no actual methods of scientific analysis are involved...
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He's got a good rep.

Turtle Dude, that is good to hear...I'm not trying to trash him, just pointing out to those reading that the NRA collection of news articles that Brain 357 is citing as an actual survey...is not a survey...of any kind...so his deriding it's findings make absolutely no sense...

Which isn't really a surprise...but I will keep trying anyway...I always find great links when I try to convince the unconvincable...

 

[2aguy]

News organizations want to make money, they would report.

They also have an anti gun bias...and they like bodies on the ground not stories of criminals running away or surrendering...

again...over 15, seperate, independent studies confirm the 760,000 number as the lowest number of times a gun is used to save lives and stop violent crime...from actual researchers for both universities and the government...the last one, again...came from obama's CDC, done in 2013...and put the low number at 500,000 and the high number at 3 million and they studied 19 different studies to get those numbers...

Tell them...ask them...let them explain it...

 

[Brain357]

Your scientific surveys report back from like 500k to 3 million. So 500k plus or minus 2.5 million? Nothing scientific about that. Actually shows how inaccurate they are. The fact they don't arrive at the same answer should be the first hint they are wrong.

They looked at 482 incidents. I see no reason why these would not represent defenses of the general population. If this is how they went down for the NRA members it should represent how things would happen with anyone.

Look, I'm not a researcher... but even I know that looking at the NRA "Armed Citizen" column...all by itself...is not a scientific survey...it isn't any sort of survey...no actual methods of scientific analysis are involved...
-----------------------

He's got a good rep.

Turtle Dude, that is good to hear...I'm not trying to trash him, just pointing out to those reading that the NRA collection of news articles that Brain 357 is citing as an actual survey...is not a survey...of any kind...so his deriding it's findings make absolutely no sense...

Which isn't really a surprise...but I will keep trying anyway...I always find great links when I try to convince the unconvincable...

 

[Brain357]

Fox has an anti gun bias? All news agencies in the entire country have an anti gun bias? Really? Sorry but that doesn't explain how such a TINY number get reported.

News organizations want to make money, they would report.

They also have an anti gun bias...and they like bodies on the ground not stories of criminals running away or surrendering...

again...over 15, seperate, independent studies confirm the 760,000 number as the lowest number of times a gun is used to save lives and stop violent crime...from actual researchers for both universities and the government...the last one, again...came from obama's CDC...and put the low number at 500,000 and the high number at 3 million and they studied 19 different studies to get those numbers...

Tell them...ask them...let them explain it...

 

[2aguy]

For any regular people out there who may be interested in the actual numbers by actual studies on the subject...again...

Okay...again...here are all the studies that actually give numbers for guns used to save lives and stop crimes taken from the table I provided from guncite.com...

GunCite-Gun Control-How Often Are Guns Used in Self-Defense

GunCite Frequency of Defensive Gun Use in Previous Surveys

Field...1976....3,052,717

Bordua...1977...1,414,544

DMIa 1978...2,141,512

DMIb...1978...1,098,409

Hart...1981...1.797,461

Ohio...1982...771,043

Mauser...1990...1,487,342

Gallup...1991...777,153

Gallup...1993...1,621,377

L.A. TIMES...1994...3,609,682

Tarrance... 1994... 764,036

DEPT. OF JUSTICE...1994...1.5 million
(Subsequent to Kleck's study, the Department of Justice sponsored a survey in 1994 titled, Guns in America: National Survey on Private Ownership and Use of Firearms (text,PDF). Using a smaller sample size than Kleck's, this survey estimated 1.5 million DGU's annually.)

Lawerence Southwich Jr. 400,000 fewer violent crimes and at least 800,000 violent crimes deterred..
.(Lawrence Southwick, Jr.,Guns and Justifiable Homicide: Deterrence and Defense-concludes there are at least 400,000 "fewer violent crimes due to civilian self-defense use of guns" and at least "800,000 violent crimes are deterred each year because of gun ownership and use by civilians.")

Obama's CDC...

from slate.com an article on CDC obama's era...500-3 million defensive gun uses

Handguns suicides mass shootings deaths and self-defense Findings from a research report on gun violence.

7. Guns are used for self-defense often and effectively. “Almost all national survey estimates indicate that defensive gun uses by victims are at least as common as offensive uses by criminals, with estimates of annual uses ranging from about 500,000 to more than 3 million per year … in the context of about 300,000 violent crimes involving firearms in 2008,” says the report. The three million figure is probably high, “based on an extrapolation from a small number of responses taken from more than 19 national surveys.”

again, the one thing they all share in common...at least in the first 14 studies shown and then Dr. Gary Kleck's study ( he found 2.5 million times a gun was used to save lives and stop violent crime) is that the bottom number is 760,000 times a year...and when you average the numbers of Klecks and the other 13...it comes out to 1.4 million times a year...

Obama's CDC study...automatically has an anti gun bias...and it found at least 500,000 times a year...

So again...all the studies are against you Brain 357...so thanks for playing...

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